It's almost official now, we're screwed on SS and Medicare

[MadHound]

I was watching Howard Dean on the Maddow show tonight, and he was going on about deficit reduction. I agree, we do need to reduce our country's debt load. However his solution was a four legged nightmare compromise. Reduce defense spending, don't renew the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy and in exchange we would reduce SS and Medicare.

When one of the most left leaning members of the Democratic party leadership is advocating, in any way, shape or form, for the reduction of SS and Medicare, we're screwed. Those programs are going down.

If we truly want to reduce the debt and "share the pain" what we need to do is let all Bush era tax cuts expire. For most of us, it would be a hit of a few hundred dollars. Furthermore, take a large portion of that savings from the lapse of the tax cuts, say 25%, and invest it in a true WPA style jobs creation program. The financial gain for everybody would more than make up for the few hundred dollars we would gain from a tax cut.

But that's not going to happen. Nothing remotely close to that is going to happen. Instead, SS and Medicare are going to be cut, in some form or fashion.

That is the epitome of Democratic party leadership, even the "left wing" of the leadership is now willing to compromise away SS and Medicare.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. I don't know which way I feel more: Angry or sad.

I guess both.

God Damn It. How dare they do these things to us?

I guess we hardly count for anything.

[MadHound]

6. Oh Peggy,

:hug:

I vacillate between those emotions as well.

I usually get away from it all and walk my dogs, enjoy nature.

How far we have fallen, how quickly we're continuing to fall. When I was a kid I wondered what it was like to live through the fall of Rome. I think we're finding out.

[elehhhhna]

32. Go with angry, CalPeg. It gets things done.

I'm with ya.

[leftstreet]

2. Sadly there's really no such thing as a 'left wing' in the Democratic party

It's the Less Center wing of the Slightly Left of Right party

:grr:

K&R

[Radical Activist]

3. Dean was never the left wing. He's to the right of Obama.

He uses the language and framing of liberals on occasion but his policies were always centrist.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. It will take people walking away from keyboards

and taking to the streets en masse... and for weeks at a time.

That ain't gonna happen, so yes, we are screwed... end of empire and all that.

[blindpig]

28. But it will happen

Workers are workers, pressure is pressure, squeeze too hard and somethin' gotta pop.

What you are saying is a variant of American Exeptionalism, a bogus and superficial creed which serves the ruling class's purpose.

Better now than later, if this doesn't do it the pressure will increase greatly and the fight will be all the more desperate. At the least, out of this immediate struggle there is great opportunity that a real Left will be born.

[Hannah Bell]

5. just because howard dean says something doesn't mean shit.

quit predicting disaster & get on the phone.

[MadHound]

9. Hannah, I'm an unemployed political junky

Do you honestly think that I'm not on the phone, writing emails, writing letters(because in this electronic age, old fashioned post gets a bit more attention), organizing and active locally?

I've been politically active for almost forty years now, and guess what, we've continued that slide into national oblivion. I've watched that slide do nothing but accelerate, but I've been the good little political trooper, doing my part.

But given the nature of the power and wealth arrayed before us, there is nothing short of a revolution that is going to stop that slide now. It's a done deal and the only question left is when will the public at large finally realize how badly they've been screwed, rise up and do something about it.

Maybe in my lifetime, maybe not. But hey, I'll keep on doing my political duty as a citizen. It's ingrained in me by now.

[inna]

7. oh fuck, i don't even want to read this right now. kr, anyway.

[Recursion]

8. Dean isn't "one of the most left leaning members"

He's actually pretty far to the center compared to the party as a whole. In Vermont he was a spending hawk, anti-gun-control, etc.

Now, that said, I personally agree with him: whatever we come up with is going to have to involve everyone giving up something (though an SS cut will only work if there's a supplement to the lowest-income retirees).

[MadHound]

10. In the mainstream narrative of the party, yes, he is.

That's how far right this party has gone, that Dean is a leftist.

As far as your support for cutting SS and Medicare, why do you support cutting back on one of the most successful social programs in this country? You would be putting the burden upon those who can least afford it, the elderly.

Why not truly share the pain and let all the tax cuts expire?

[Recursion]

11. Well, I'm for letting all the tax cuts expire

why do you support cutting back on one of the most successful social programs in this country?

Because that is the only way to get enough Republicans to vote for it to have it pass.

You would be putting the burden upon those who can least afford it, the elderly.

Well, the alternative plan to Simpson/Bowles that what's-her-name and what's-his-name are suggesting actually winds up with the lowest quartile getting higher SS payments and only the upper half receiving less. They also want to lower the tax rate but increase the actual amount of taxes paid by removing a lot of deductions and credits, which honestly I also think is a good idea because the tax code should really be more about revenue and less about incenting and disincenting behavior than it currently is. Though I think their talk of a national sales tax or even VAT is a non-starter.

[MadHound]

Getting what to pass?

You don't have to get anything to pass, you simply let all the tax cuts expire, and there is a debt reduction of four trillion dollars over the next ten years right there:shrug:

As far as reducing the defense budget, you make that a separate budget issue. Being as the majority of people in this country are against the wars and the way they are draining this country, it would be an excellent opportunity for the president to beat opponents with the bully pulpit. But then again, seeing as how Obama has yet to use the bully pulpit, I see your point.

[TheWraith]

13. Only in the narrative of the internet bubble.

Recursion is right: Dean is fundamentally a moderate with a strong populist streak. That's not a bad thing--in fact, it can be a very good thing, since some of those moderates with strong populist streaks can behave better than solidly "left wing" Dems who haven't mixed with real people in years. (Charlie Rangel, I'm looking at you!) But to hold him up as some left-wing icon, you need to only look at the internet echo-chamber narrative.

In any event, I think the premise is false. I don't think there's the votes in the House or the Senate to cut either Medicare OR Social Security, let alone both.

[Recursion]

18. I agree mostly

I don't think there's the votes in the House or the Senate to cut either Medicare OR Social Security

Nor are there the votes to raise Medicare levies above where they are now, but one of those (a payment cut or a levy raise) have to happen by 2029, or the laws of arithmetic have to be suspended (or Medicare has to become a regular budget item, which will be its near-instant death). PPACA already gave Medicare 12 extra years, but that's assuming a 20% cut to providers that absolutely will not happen.

I think there weren't the votes to cut social security a year ago. There may be now. But there probably won't be after 2012 since we'll have coattails (though the 2006 wave senators will be up again and many of them will be vulnerable depending on the economy).

[Skittles]

14. how about letting the wars expire

gawd

[UrbScotty]

12. Enough of the hysteria, already (nt)

[Skittles]

15. it is reality, not hysteria

WAKE UP

[MadHound]

16. What are you going to say when this becomes reality?

"Whoops"

By then it will be too late. You apparently don't get it, we've got a set of bipartisan commission heads, appointed by a Democratic President, advocating for cuts in SS and Medicare. We have other leaders, both Democratic and Republican, discussing these cuts as some sort of compromise. This is the first time that such serious discussion has been out there. Even Bushboy's SS privatization scheme was shot down in relatively short order.

We have got to get ahead of this now, and make our voice heard. Otherwise here in a few weeks or months we'll all be saying,

"Whoops"

[raouldukelives]

17. What better way to promote the general welfare

than by lowering the full SS age to 60 and increasing benefits. Get some money flowing, some job creation and let people fill the positions retires vacate. Eliminate the cap, tax the super rich an extra 8%, end the fake wars and maybe really start acting like a "Christian Nation" for once.

[glitch]

29. That would promote the general welfare, as would single payer.

But promoting the general welfare is not an objective of most of the politicians and pundits inside the beltway. And now that includes Dean.

I'd throw him under the bus but it got shitcanned by budget cuts.

[bananas]

19. k&r nt

[Warren DeMontague]

20. If we really rolled back those cuts and significantly cut defense, we'd be more than halfway home.

Legalize and tax pot, end the drug war~ probably take us most of the rest of the way.

I think Social Security and Medicare can be fixed; I think some of the problems now are the collusion between the Health Insurance Industry, Pharmaceutical Industry and HC Providers to adhere to massively inflated costs.

[bettyellen]

22. i think if thetax on pot saved people against legalizing it some money

they would suddenly be for it.

[MiniMe]

21. Social Security is not part of the debt, and paying it out doesn't increase the debt

Other than the US has to pay back what it borrowed. Medicare is another story, unfortunately. There is no reason at all to touch SS benefits imho.

[Recursion]

27. Wait. It *is* part of the debt, which is why paying it off can't add to the debt

But it will add to the deficit every year, and at increasingly unfavorable terms.

[defendandprotect]

23. Americans aren't responding to the threat of fascism in America ....

over and again that is obvious --

And certainly, Americans are probably more confused because this is allegedly

a Democratic president creating the destructive policies now!!

Bush couldn't do it, but Obam will -- and America is silenced!!

[JoePhilly]

30. This thread is about DEAN, not Obama ... nt

[Divine Discontent]

24. still, let's not discount the fighters we have in the House & Senate who will duke this out for

the people. I know their numbers aren't great, but they're not insignificant either. This is a very frustrating time in our country, for sure. Still hoping our progressive-minded "people power" beliefs win out.

[peace frog]

25. Who might they be?

and why are these stalwarts not proactively fighting for us now, ahead of the bloodletting? Personally I don't expect more than half-hearted initial protest, followed by swift surrender. That's been the pattern thus far and I see no stomach for *change*.

I agree with Hound: if Howard Dean advocates cuts to SS/Medicare on Rachel Maddow, it's a done deal. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

[MadHound]

26. Sadly, those fighters are few and easily overcome,

Even more sadly, they will be fought by members of their own party.

[Individualist]

31. Don't you realize how very few are left in the House and Senate who'll fight for the people?

[donheld]

33. George Carlin was right

[L0oniX]

34. They can expect to get voted out of office too.

[Canuckistanian]

35. "in exchange"?

There's no "exchange" to be had. The GOP wants it ALL.

You can't reason with these people. They'll cut you down to nothing then laugh at you.

"Exchange"? Yeah, right.

[BzaDem]

36. Do you see what I'm talking about now? People say Dean should replace Obama

but they would of course be complaining just as much (if not moreso) about Dean. I was actually going to do an OP on this earlier (I still might).

People then say Feingold would be great. But Feingold not only voted for HCR -- he said he was happy to lose election knowing he cast the deciding vote for it. So he's out.

Then they say they want Grayson. But Grayson was one of the people calling for passing the Senate bill when everyone else was shouting it down. Franken? Same thing.