I'm broke and jobless. But can someone explain to me how cutting fed'l workers pay helps me?

[Hello_Kitty]

Because I'm just not seeing it. But according to some people, this wage freeze should make me happy because those gubmint workers make too much and it's so unfair to the struggling private sector. Erm, okay.

Would someone walk me through how this federal employee wage freeze improves my situation and that of millions of other unemployed Americans? :shrug:

[LAGC]

1. Fed workers will have less money, which means they'll spend less, which means less jobs.

Indeed, I don't think it helps jobless people at all.

[Hello_Kitty]

4. That's what I think too.

We're not having much luck persuading the "stick it to those overpaid gubmint workers" crowd of that.

[XemaSab]

5. Makes sense to me

:shrug:

[OnionPatch]

27. Not only that, but when you eliminate good paying jobs, you drive down wages for everyone.

It works the same way union jobs do. I've always been glad that those good-paying government jobs were out there, keeping the standards higher for everyone.

[SidDithers]

2. Must every government action directly help you?...nt

Sid

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

43. Must every government action directly help the rich? Apparently yes.

[SidDithers]

91. Apparently no...

for instance, here's an OSHA ruling about new standards for Cranes and Derricks on construction sites. It's a new set of standards designed to improve worker safety, by addressing the four main causes of worker death and injury - electrocution, crushed by parts of the equipment, struck-by the equipment/load, and falls. Given your alleged support of labour, I'd like to think you'd approve of government action like this.

http://www.osha.gov/as/opa/cranesderricks-factsheet.html

So, there's a government action that doesn't "directly help the rich", meaning your premise is categorically false.

Oh, and this government action won't help the "broke and jobless" OP either, but that doesn't mean it's not a good policy move.

Sid

[Safetykitten]

6. Well thill think of it this way. Apparently there are people that will fill the streets to support

them not getting a freeze. So theres a job there i would think.

[Skittles]

7. it doesn't

you're a victim and now they are claiming more victims; heaven forbid they let the tax cuts for the wealthy or the fucking wars expire

[RandomThoughts]

8. And once again, someone says heaven forbid on the topic of tax cuts for the wealthy.

I figure you are sarcastic, but they really believe they are following heavenly advice while they destroy and ravage.

I feel great sadness for the day when they reach that place they thought was heaven talking to them.

[Skittles]

14. applied to the sanctimonious pieces of shit who make these decisions

you can bet 99% of them call themselves "CHRISTIAN" :puke:

[RandomThoughts]

16. Its a label trap. If you can get someone to be the opposite of some teachings

Then say they are part of them, then the meaning of that label can tried to be changed in the mind of many people.

It is not about the label. Machiavellians are taught to do that exact thing. And it is done with most labels, the methodology is to take a stored concept in a label, and use that stored concept to help oneself. It is a form of theft.

If I say I am a car mechanic, you will attribute to me the ability to fix cars simply by what was earned by many car mechanics that loaded your macro for what a car mechanic is. If I was to say that and was not, I could steal the work done by those that are car mechanics without earning it, and if then I was not a car mechanic, the label is burned down as it is depleted and not added to.

That is what many do to labels around religion, and the defense and reason to have faith not be an issue needed for a test of office, or even needed to be asked about. Since by making that requirement of someone having to say what they believe, you allow people that do not show it in their heart to claim it and use the energy of people of that faith that added to the meaning of that label.

So I try and avoid labels, nor thinking of what a person is by a label.

Not trying to group any set of people in that label group, many probably try to do better, many might even think they do, so it really is an education and thinking and feeling issue.

[Hannah Bell]

46. "label trap". useful phrase.

[RandomThoughts]

85. What is loaded in the macro for the label 'label trap'

:D

[dkf]

9. Well if the Republicans are insisting that unemployment extensions be paid for

This may be a source of funds. If they need to fund other health and welfare type expenses this may apply also.

[Hello_Kitty]

10. Have the funds been earmarked for that? If so, can we count on some GOP votes for UI extension?

:rofl: on the second part of that.

[dkf]

11. I would think the republicans would accept that as a reasonable bargaining position

[Hello_Kitty]

13. Right. Recent history has shown how amenable they are when you preemptively compromise with them.

:rofl:

[dkf]

15. Well they have to come to an agreement soon as the debt ceiling needs to be addressed.

If we assume they will shut down the Government then there will be bad consequences.

[Hello_Kitty]

17. The Right has an ideological commitment

To cutting the social safety net and to the redistribution of the wealth of the lower 98% to the top 2%. They will cut off unemployment benefits. They will privatize SS and Medicare. They will maintain tax cuts to the rich AND the debt ceiling. Which means yet more cuts to anything that benefits anyone who isn't in the top 2%. They are perfectly willing to shut down the government. Whatever it takes.

[laughingliberal]

18. +1000 nt

[Chan790]

89. The last time they took such an ideological commitment...

it went poorly for them.

Ask Newt Gingrich. He'll tell you all about it because he's warning them not to do it and it was his harebrained idea last time.

[blondeatlast]

30. I was just about to say... Kudos for a great answer. nt

[Dr.Phool]

31. Wait until negotiations begin, before you start bargaining against yourself.

[inna]

12. it's not meant to help you.

it's meant to hurt you, actually.

[DrDan]

19. it will help fund the tax cuts for the wealthy - which benefits us all

[Obamanaut]

20. Don't know that fed'l workers' pay cut would help, but cutting cigarettes will.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=9654407#9654417

Not putting part of the budget 'up in smoke' can only help in the long term - budget and health.

[Hello_Kitty]

38. Thanks for the lecture.

:eyes:

[Obamanaut]

64. Not a lecture, pointing out that money spent on cigarettes could be

used for something else. Especially if one is broke and unemployed.

[Hello_Kitty]

69. Time spent micromanaging poor people could be used on something more productive

Just saying.

[Obamanaut]

79. Some might say the same for spending time on an internet discussion board.

just responding

[Hello_Kitty]

81. And I'm responding by telling you that your RW talking points are tiresome and unwelcome.

[Obamanaut]

82. Ignore can be your friend in a time of need. But there remains the

issue of posting re broke, jobless, and buying cigarettes. Some might think that imprudent.

[Hello_Kitty]

84. Some might go piss up a rope as far as I'm concerned.

One thing my recent poverty has shown me is what judgmental callous assholes people can be.

[Hannah Bell]

48. right, she's unemployed because she smokes.

what would help would be if democrats didn't join in the republican worker-bashing.

"oh, those people are in their situation because they're defective/have bad habits/"

[Obamanaut]

63. Broke, unemployed, wondering how federal worker pay cuts help her,

"Oh, those people in that situation remain there because they imprudently smoke up their available money."

[Hannah Bell]

68. um, her available money is probably UE. and a years' worth of cigarettes will buy her an

extra month. if there's no job, it doesn't matter in the least.

you're participating in the republican worker-bashing.

"they deserve it because they waste taxpayer money on cigarettes/alcohol/lottery tickets"

go tell it to people who care, i.e. republican wingers.

[Hello_Kitty]

70. I'm actually not getting unemployment. My last job was a contract. eom

[PassingFair]

88. Not to be nit-picky here, but it's a wage FREEZE, no RAISE, right?

He's not proposing to CUT wages.

[Born_A_Truman]

97. Stop pointing out the FACTS!

:hi:

[Obamanaut]

99. Yes, I am aware of this. Did you read the OP? The thread goes from there. nt

[madrchsod]

21. it makes obama look like he`s doing something

the only thing he`s doing is making sure he`s a one term president

[TBF]

22. Oh don't start going all "solidarity" on us - we know that all us little

people have to make sacrifices so the wars and tax cuts for the rich can continue.

:sarcasm:

[w4rma]

23. It won't. It's a political gimmick that some DLCer in Obama's administration came up with. (nt)

[de novo]

24. He opened himself to well deserved ridicule on this idiotic decision.

[GreenStormCloud]

25. The same way that SS has been frozen for two years.

Where were you when Social Security recipients were denied Cost-Of-Living-Allowances, for the first time ever for 2010 & for 2011?

[haele]

76. We were there, for our parents, grandparents and family members on SSI

But current events always seem to get in the way, don't they - the latest outrage, 'baggery, and media circus, which all acts to make it seem that being concerned about family members surviving on a COLA freeze is trivial when put up against "the big picture".
Oh, and we all have to tighten our belts. Because Deficits only matter when there are Dems in charge, or the possibility that the upper 1% income earners might see a 2% increase in their taxes is so unfair, even though that 1% is probably using far more of a percentage of government (Fed, State, and Local) resources and infrastructure than the lower 40% of income earners combined.
But I guess they deserve it because they were lucky enough to be born on 3rd base or found the few great opportunities left after the Reagan era.
Calvanist economics suck. As do cirular firing squads.

The bigger question is "how do we get out of this mess without losing 1/3 of the most vulnerable citizens". I am starting to have a nasty suspicion that many policy makers think there's about 100 million Americans too many, as it is, and they're encouraging the general population to believe that also.

Haele

[Vinca]

26. The right wing has successfully pimped the story that government workers are rich.

The ones making the big bucks are in Congress and you know they won't step up to the plate and give up a percentage of the $174,000 a year.

[GoCubsGo]

29. Yep.

But, I know several federal employees who loyally vote republican. For them, I have absolutely no sympathy. Bed. Made. Lie. And, if I hear any of them bitching about it, I'll just point out that it was THEIR party who pushed for the pay freeze in the first place. Had they really gotten their way, they'd be out of their jobs altogether. I really, really do not understand how these people keep voting republican.

[Starry Messenger]

28. It doesn't.

It's meant to drive down wages.

[QC]

32. It's a way for Obama to validate yet another right wing meme.

He does that a lot, come to think of it.

[Autumn]

33. It's a symbolic gesture, it's gives the republicans and Obama

the warn fuzzies. Don't think it helps anyone else though.

[Freddie Stubbs]

34. Assuming that you eventually become employed again,

you as a taxpayer would have a smaller deficit to pay off.

President Obama is looking at the long-term rather than the short term benefits.

[Hello_Kitty]

39. I'll try to remember that when the Bush tax cuts to the rich get extended. eom

[paulk]

52. that's nonsense

the money saved is a drop in the bucket, and putting more money into the economy, rather than taking it out, is what's needed to get the economy going again.

If Obama doesn't understand that then he is a complete fucking idiot.

The long term "benefit" of this decision is to weaken unions. A strange thing coming from a so called Democratic President....

[Carolina]

74. we'd have less of a deficit

if we got out of Afghanistan and Iraq, reinstated a real progressive income tax that taxed paper earnings the same as wages, made corporate 'personhood' subject to the same rules and penalties as real persons, etc.

Federal workers are not wealthy, except for the Congress critters who regularly vote themselves raises and fear no health care deprivation (or medically caused bankruptcy) because they have the best gov't public option! Cutting federal workers' income is just another wound to working people.

Obama is truly the worst. At least with Bush we knew we were getting screwed, but words fail to describe my loathing for Obama's deficit reduction ideas, his back peddling on campaign promises (public option), his continued coddling of repukes and their ideas, his empty speechifying...

Let TSA scan and frisk him!

I will not support him 2012 and spare me any Potus Palin remarks.

[shanti]

35. they pulled that crap

on the state workers of california...and got away with it. only difference is that it wasn't just a freeze, it was a cut! once they cut, they rarely raise.

the powers that be LOVE to pit the workers against each other. it's obvious that there has been a concerted effort to lower american wages - we'll take it in the shorts or else! :(

[TwilightGardener]

36. Nobody cut their pay. Jesus, pay attention to basic facts.

[kenny blankenship]

37. it helps your President convince Repukes & "moderates" he shares their undying hate of Govt. workers

That's the plan anyway. But I don't think that will do anything for him, realistically speaking, and I'm sure it does even less than nothing for you. Cutting worker's pay in a recession brought on by decades of wage stagnation is stupid, hateful Repuke politics. As an economic move, it's nothing short of insane.

[Better Believe It]

40. Those savings can be passed on to rich people who will trickle some of it on you.

I believe it's called the trickle down economic theory.

It may seem like pee but it's really raining dollars!

[asdjrocky]

41. It doesn't, it's fake.

It's another case of Obama and the Dems caving to stupid repug ideas.

[Hannah Bell]

42. It doesn't.

[treestar]

44. Is everything that is done with reference to you?

It is to help balance the federal budget. Too big a deficit could be bad for all of us. You'd be OK with it if it somehow helped you, it seems. Look into the dangers of deficits and see if any of those dangers would harm you, then you can support it.

[Hello_Kitty]

49. Oh look, it's DU's very own Tom Friedman clone weighing in.

Hi treestar. :hi:

[JuniperLea]

51. Oh look... it's avoidance of a direct question...

Amazing how many DUers are avoiders these days.

[Hello_Kitty]

55. Why don't you answer my question first?

Will the proposed pay freeze on federal workers help me?

[JuniperLea]

71. I had no intention of answering that question...

I asked a question first... I didn't reply directly to your OP.

[Hello_Kitty]

73. Well treestar's question was simply trying to instigate.

It was rude and condescending. As are you.

[JuniperLea]

75. How nice that you read minds too!

Yet you can't answer a question, whilst demanding an answer to your own... and you have the nerve to say others are condescending and rude... interesting.

[Hello_Kitty]

80. I can make observations and mine are not based on this one comment alone.

As for you, you continue to be rude and condescending to me.

[JuniperLea]

86. Ahhh... I see... you can dish it out, but...

Please look up thread and see who snarked first... I replied to your initial snark off of another, in which you were more than rude, and more than condescending. But I see how it is... that was you, this is me. Gotcha.

And you still can't answer the question. Telling.

[Forkboy]

92. Anyone paying attention to treestar knows that's the truth.

Doesn't take a mind reader, just a brain.

[JuniperLea]

87. Oh no... this isnt' rude at all...

:eyes:

[Hello_Kitty]

58. BTW, I'm bookmarking this for when they extend the tax cuts to the rich

You're going to be really upset about that, right treestar?

[Hello_Kitty]

62. So I decided to google you and Bush tax cuts and here's what I found

"It's worth it to leave the ones for the rich in to keep the middle class ones."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9473976&mesg_id=9475240


Why am I not surprised?

[Hannah Bell]

65. and why does the federal budget need to be "balanced," since during the majority

of the history of the republic it hasn't been?

and in the few times when it was, economic crisis followed?

and why is the deepest recession since the great depression the right time to do it?

"too big a deficit could be bad for all of us". contentless. bet you can't explain why.

[superduperfarleft]

77. I think you're, as usual, missing the point. n/t

[Forkboy]

93. And as usual it was probably missed on purpose.

[Mimosa]

45. Freezing wages is not the same as cutting wages for anybody...

unless there is serious inflation.

[Better Believe It]

53. It's still a wage cut even without "serious inflation" of say only 1 or 2 percent a year.

Isn't that right?

[Mimosa]

56. Maybe. But at least Fed employees have health insurance, retirement plans, etc unlike many of us. n/

[Hello_Kitty]

57. So let's attack their insurance and retirement plans too. Drag them down to our level!

That'll make us all equal! :eyes:

[Mimosa]

59. Didn't say that.

Federal employees are voters too. Maybe if they understand how the rest of us live, they'll start supporting progressive policy. Do you realise many Fed employees and gov bureaucrats vote Republican?

[Hello_Kitty]

61. Gee, so why hasn't the decimated private sector figured it out yet?

[Better Believe It]

67. Do you realize that the big majority of them vote Democrat? And this is how they get rewarded!

[blondeatlast]

72. Do you honestly believe Federal employees are blind to how the rest of us live?

Because if you do, just--:wow:

[Cleita]

47. It doesn't help you but it does help the rich who would

have to take a raise in taxes in order to help pay down the debt. Instead they get to keep that money that the federal employees will have to pay for instead. It's disgusting supply side Republican politics again and I can't believe the Democrats and Obama are folding for it again.

[Hello_Kitty]

50. Look at all the DUers who have fallen for it!

I had no idea there were so many deficit hawks here!

[ieoeja]

54. If we just make most people as poor as you, then you will be middle class.

You can go from poor to middle class without ever finding a job!

:)

[slackmaster]

60. It isn't about helping you or me or the private sector

It's like a line from the Firesign Theatre, the narrator addressing a person who just been placed in the back seat of a police car:

"Don't worry about the bars between you and the driver. They're for his protection, not yours."

[bullwinkle428]

66. Last week, we had "security theater". This week, it's "employment theater"!

[Capitalocracy]

78. Step 1: Reduce Spending. (On workers' wages, not on the rich.)

Step 2: Reduce Deficit. (Or maybe increase it, after all, we need to help out the rich.)
Step 3: Profit! (But not for you.)

[xchrom]

83. Recommend

[Unvanguard]

90. It doesn't help you in the slightest. It is a useless, symbolic, politically-motivated move.

It was a dumb step to take, and Obama should be ashamed.

And clearly the Senate Republicans are oh-so-gracious about his willingness to compromise. :eyes:

[Forkboy]

94. Some very predictable responses from the people I would expect them from.

Except for Sid, who found the rest of his keyboard! :P

[blondeatlast]

95. Ouch.

Falling off my chair hurts, yanno?

:rofl:

[superduperfarleft]

96. Lulz.

:rofl:

[SidDithers]

100. ...

:hi: :)

Sid

[Forkboy]

102. I was hoping you'd take that in the spirit intended!

:hi:

[TheWatcher]

98. Didn't you get the Morning Memo from The Propagandists?

Haven't you heard? 93,000 Temp Jobs have saved The Economy, and the Stock Market is up 240 Points.

2,000,000 are losing their Unemployment benefits, which means more gambling money for Wall Street, which will eventually trickle down to you.

Plus, freezing Federal Worker Bee Pay will trickle down to you as well.

Someday....

No, really....

Now, get out there and shop, tiger.

You'll need a new Plasma for the Festival of Sports, Junk Reality, and Propaganda that you'll need to be a "Good American."

Are You Ready For Some Football?



:sarcasm:

[Codeine]

101. I couldn't get an adequate explanation for that argument either.

It basically boiled down to "I'm fucked, so you should be fucked too. And be happy about it!"