A culture clash in roofing - contractors, losing jobs to the Amish, cry foul

[The Straight Story]

A culture clash in roofing
Main Line contractors, losing jobs to the Amish, cry foul. The Amish say they work harder.

PHILADELPHIA -- Main Line roofers say they are taking it on the chin from Amish competitors, who are getting a significant amount of work in Philadelphia's wealthy western suburbs.

Keith McLean, a Paoli roofing contractor, said he lost a job this month when his bid of $8,000 was $3,000 more than the winning Amish bid.

The 38 percent difference in price, McLean said, rendered him unable to compete. "My wiggle room is hundreds of dollars. I don't have three grand" to play with, said McLean, who owns Hancock Building Associates Inc.

McLean and other non-Amish contractors say the Amish, who come from Lancaster County and western Chester County, have an advantage because they do not have to pay Social Security taxes for themselves or their Amish employees and are eligible for a religious exemption from workers' compensation insurance, although not all take advantage of the latter.

"If they are going to come into our community, they need to conduct their business the same way we do," said McLean, who has been in business for 20 years.

Amish contractors said their biggest advantage is that they work harder and faster, and are used to Lancaster County's lower prices and wages. "From what they charge down there, they make a killing," said John F. Stoltzfus, who owns Countryside Roofing & Exteriors, of Strasburg, Pa.


http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20101129_A_culture_clash_in_roofing.html

[Travis_0004]

1. OASDI (Social Security) is 15.6%, yet they are 38% cheaper, so that doesn't explain everything.

[Gaedel]

4. Workman's Comp

Insurance for workman's Compensation (in case of injury on the job) is the real killer. Ambulance chasing lawyers have driven the claims so high that insurance premiums make up a large percentage of the contractor base cost for a job.

A lot of contractors get around it by having all of their employees get their own contractor's licenses then the contractor can calim that all of the employees are subcontractors and he dioesn't have to pay for them.

[msanthrope]

32. Any contractor in PA can get out of worker's comp if they choose...

If your firm is structured as a partnership, then your members are owners and don't have to buy insurance.

[MadHound]

2. The Amish simply don't do safety,

Yes, they work fast, but they have no safety equipment. No hard hats, no cables, minimal scaffolding. Instead they clamber around like wild goats, and if one of them falls, oh well. No insurance, no worker's comp.

And since they are considered a religious organization, they are exempt from such rules and regulations. This all leads to much cheaper overhead.

[Dreamer Tatum]

18. Given the prevailing DU attitudes about the religious, isn't that a good thing?nt

[Sal Minella]

20. I laughed out loud reading this.

Just wanted you to know.

"The religious" are fine on DU. Religions are fine on DU.

Pushing particular religious beliefs onto someone else or inserting religious influences into any form of U.S. government is not fine on DU.
Religious organizations promulgating political causes or candidates while under tax-free status is not fine on DU.

You're welcome!

:smile and wave:

[Dreamer Tatum]

22. Um, yeah. You might actually read a few threads now and then.

:hi:

[cleanhippie]

27. Point them out, then. If they exist.

Otherwise you are personally insulting just about EVERYONE on DU.

[cleanhippie]

26. Can you substantiate that assumption with anything resembling fact?

Perhaps you are mistaken the "prevailing attitude" with RELIGION, not the religious. Or are you happy with a broad brush smear of many of the members of DU?

[superduperfarleft]

28. I've never understood why people that clearly hate DU so much

and have nothing but contempt for the majority of users here continue to post.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

3. Should the amish match the quotes of Philli's roofing companies?

Currently they are not taking advantage of thier religious exemptions. By this I mean that they have less overhead cost and pass that discount directly onto the customers. They could make the margin closer and maximize profits (AKA: fleece customers and make obscene profits) while still undercutting the competition. But they don't - which I think is the morally right situation.

Do people on DU suggest the amish should match the quotes of Philli's roofing companies?
They've got to make a living too... what should they charge for thier cheaper labor?

[MadHound]

5. Actually they are taking advantage of their religious exemptions,

They don't have to pay for workmen's comp, Social Security, or follow certain basic safety regulations. These all put them at a competitive advantage.

They need to be denied those "religious" exemptions if they're going to compete in the secular world.

[Angry Dragon]

6. +1000

[w4rma]

8. With those exeptions they can undercut anyone at any wage. (nt)

[rocktivity]

9. I definitely don't like the idea of them not following safety procedures

which may give them a financial "advantage," but not a competitive one.

When I worked for the engineering/construction department of a large company, new workers had to sit through a presentation of safety rules and procedures--they were even told exactly what kind of hard hats and steel-toed boots they had to wear!

:headbang:
rocktivity

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

10. Well, yes. But I doubt religious exemptions are going anywhere anytime soon.

With the current system, the Amish are in a catch 22 situation. They're either going to be villified for making too much profit charging similar prices or they're going to be accused of unfairly undercutting competitors for charging honest rates to customers.

If the philli Amish are missing out on those "benefits"... they don't seem unhappy about it. The Amish around here have thier own social net within the commnuity. Personally, all the safety BS at my work really chapp my ass. I work in engineering/manufacuring and I'm of the old school opinion: If an "injury" doesn't require the ER or first aid - there's no reason to bother the nurse or safety department. If you can get to the nurses' station under your own power... don't because it'll just bite you and everyone else in the ass later.

[MadHound]

13. So you're willing to sacrifice peoples' lives over religious exemptions?

There's a reason that there are safety regulations, namely so people don't needlessly suffer injuries and death in their employer's pursuit of profits. How is it fair that the Amish get to sacrifice their people on the basis of religion? Are you suggesting that we just level the playing field and do away with safety regulations for everybody? That's a foolish, and deadly notion.

And while the Amish don't pay workmen's comp, and don't follow safety regs, their workers suffer injuries and death needlessly while their employer's do rake in the profits. And guess who pays for these exemptions? We do, and the Amish workers do. An Amish man falls from a roof he is working on, breaks some bones, and either goes to the emergency room, where we foot the bill, since the Amish won't pay, or he goes home to suffer in silence due to inadequate care.

And your attitude about safety regs is, well, rather 19th century of you. I suppose that I shouldn't have gotten my hand stitched up because doing so bit me in the ass later. And we shouldn't require steel toed shoes or hard hats at construction sites, or face guards or any other such basic precautions. Just do like the Amish do and sacrifice their people on the altar of profits.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

16. There is basic safety and there are nazi-like nanny safety regimes at some companies.

Prime example... some idiot here at work cut themselves with an xacto blade or box cutter or something. Now boxcutter MUST be safety approved, have retactable blades, eye protection must be worn with them, these silly cut-resistant gloves needs worn when using, and I swear they bought the dullest blades in the world to refill them with. Never mind the fact that what we actually need are xacto knives for detail work.

IMO, a worker should never be forced by an employer to behave in an unsafe manner. That's unethical to expect people to place themselves at risk doing a job they need the money from to survive. If a worker feels a justifiable need for a safety device, the employer should have to provide it. Period.

Likewise, I think workers should be given lattitude to choose to work with minimal saftey if others are not put at risk and the self-induced and self-recognized risks are not perilous. There's no reason I should have to look like the Michelin-Man with safety goggles when I want to use a box-cutter. That's asinine. If someone is doing heavy work/construction 100yds away from me... why do I need a hardhat? Why do I require enclosed-space training to work in a broom closet? Are cut resistant gloves really required EVERY time I touch an endmill, lathe tooling, or drill bit?

On the other hand, should I be allowed to operate aerial lifts and scaffolding without basic fall protection (harness)? No... that's a life or death situation and my falling could inadvertantly impact others' safety. There needs to be some sort of reasonable balance, you see? This zero tolerance nanny bullshit is not only unecessarily expensive, it cna be counterproductive.

[Brickbat]

19. It sounds like the cut-resistant gloves are something your company requires.

There's a difference between company policies and state requirements. The Amish can ignore the state requirements, which is what makes the playing field uneven.

[Desertrose]

25. Why do you say Amish don't pay?

They take care of their own...medical bills included. They may not pay into SS but the community does take care of medical bills. Amish don't try to get out of their obligations.

The Amish I grew up around & know always take care of their own- whether building houses, barns or footing the bill for medical expenses. I've seen it in person.

They do not "sacrifice their people on the altar of profits" as you say. It's just a whole different way of life that is hard to understand unless you live it or live in around the community.

[msanthrope]

33. It's interesting to me the assumptions people make about the Amish---

knowing almost nothing about them.

[Brickbat]

11. You beat me to it. The playing field is not level.

[msanthrope]

30. That's not quite accurate--the workers comp 'exemption' is offered to all PA citizens.

Under PA law, if you are a member of a partnership you are an owner.

Owners don't have to get worker's comp.

Most of these firms are partnerships.

Any contractor can organize their firm that way.

But I can see why most would not.

[WolverineDG]

15. The real reason the Amish get more work:

they do a better job. Same thing is happening with another religious group I'm familiar with. Local contractors are howling because they are getting "all" the good jobs (hardly, they're getting a lot of residential & small business work) because they can undercut the competition. Left out of "outrage" (conveniently of course) is that this group does much better work & does it faster than the local contractors.

But of course, on DU, the Amish should not be allowed to do anything, as DU has a distinct anti-religion bent.

dg

[KillCapitalism]

7. The amish live in what we call poverty & don't care about good wages.

The amish live very simply, no cars, no phones, no computers, etc. They build their own spartan homes with help from the community. An amish family can live well with less than $10,000 a year, they're cheaper to employ than illegals.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

12. The amish are probably the closest thing to a well-established commune as there is.

They all basically share the fruits of thier labor, have thier own little safety nets, and generally associate within thier own circles when possible. They live simply because their society allows them to. FYI, the amish around here do have cars phones. They even operate one of the best restaraunts around and have a killer hardware and farming store. Their "Spartan Homes" are easily larger and as nicer anything I'd ever be able to afford.

[KillCapitalism]

14. I guess the amish differ in some ways.

They must differ like how orthodox and reform jewish congregations do.

The amish near me live in simple 19th century type homes and truly believe that phones and cars are instruments of the devil.

[Sal Minella]

21. I remember hearing about "the black bumper Amish" who allowed

themselves to own automobiles, but disdained "worldly show" by painting all the visible chrome black.

I'm sure the Mennonites and Amish and similar communities have levels corresponding to the Hassids, Orthodox and Reformed, yes.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

37. I have no sympathy for contractors in general.

I've owned my home for 12 year most of that during the housing boom. Hiring a contractor was nearly impossible.
They never returned calls, never showed up, provided substandard work with low paid immigrant workers when they
were hired. Now that we're all working in a more competitive environment contractors yearn for the good old days.

Those days are long gone. People will hire companies that offer a quality job for a fair price. There are online services
that allow you to make an informed decision based on the reviews of past customers. I've hired the last couple jobs
through one of these services and have been very happy with the end result. I support union workers. Smart business
owners that have scaled down and are competitive will make it. Greedy people unable to accept the new economy will not.

[Vincardog]

35. Do you have a problem with people choosing to live a simple life?

[safeinOhio]

17. I don't understand.

"Religious exemptions" and "for profit" don't add up. If they are competing with and making money like any other "for profit" business, what's up with "religious exemptions"? Why don't other contractors look into running their own scam?

[xchrom]

23. Those religious exemptions should not apply

When the Amish leave their farms and compete.

We have these safety regs to keep people safe,
Insurance regs to make sure people aren't ruined on the job,
And workmens comp to pay the bills if they are hurt.

[msanthrope]

31. But the worker's comp 'exemption' is open to any PA citizen, not just religious.

It has to do with corporate structure.

If you structure your firm as a partnership, then all members are owners, and therefore, have the right to reject worker's comp.

This is a choice of how to structure your firm--so, you have the Amish, on one side, who are all members of a collective, vs. a single owner who may or may not treat his employees (legal and illegal) well.

It's a bit more complex than the article makes out.

[Bunny]

34. You may not need work comp, but you'd better be carrying at least a million in general liability

insurance. My company would not ever hire anyone without proof of adequate insurance.

[Edweird]

24. Now, swap 'Amish' for 'illegal immigrant' and that's exactly what I've experienced.

[superduperfarleft]

29. What, the puppy mills aren't paying well enough anymore?

If the Amish want to get into this business, drop the stupid "religious exemption." Until they even the playing field, the contractor has a great point.

[8 track mind]

36. Well here in Texas

The roofing biz is extremely crooked. The big roofing outfits here use illegal labor, use seriously cheap materials and bilk the insurance companies. We paid ten grand for our new roof because we wanted the best hail resistant shingles. They kept delivering the wrong shingles to be installed, thinking we wouldn't notice. After two instances of this, we told them that we would file an insurance fraud complaint. They knocked off the BS after that.

Union carpenters are some of the best I've ever seen and I would love to use them, but they are rare in the DFW area. My second choice would be the Amish. We used to watch them build prefab houses when I was a kid, and they really did great work.