We are a Nation of Retail Salespersons and Cashiers and Food Services

[OlympicBrian]

We are a Nation of Retail Salespersons and Cashiers and Food Services
By Dan, Seattle, 11/30/2010

With so many retail employees, what does this mean if companies like eBay and Amazon grow in retail market share--and they have a much smaller footprint in terms of employees and the economy? Why don't we tax Amazon sales?

Table 1. Largest occupations in the private sector, May 2009

Retail salespersons 4,197,760
Cashiers 3,396,180
Combined food preparation and serving workers, including fast food 2,539,750
Waiters and waitresses 2,292,170

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ocwag2.t01.htm

Do you see scientists, engineers, and computer programmers among this list? No. Only 367,880 computer programmers in the US...so they didn't make the list! Did you know IBM employees at least 100,000 employees in India alone, according to some estimates (IBM has a new personnel policy where it won't release employee numbers information, so it can hide its offshoring)?

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151021.htm

With so many high-wage jobs going overseas, no wonder our economy is recovering so slowly.

Related story:
Post-Recession Job Recovery Hampered by Offshoring
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9646348

[OlympicBrian]

1. kick

[hayu_lol]

2. Add this to the pot...

most of those in retail are part-timers.

10 years ago, most heads of families worked full time. So did single parents. 60 years ago, usually only one member of a family worked and even fairly low wages supported families pretty well.

[WCGreen]

3. Big kick and recommend...

[leftstreet]

4. The minimum wage should be $20 an hour

at least

[Jack Sprat]

5. That says plenty on why our economy has slowed

in recovery. Some 55% of the population will not attend college. Where are the plant and manufacturing jobs that once dotted the landscape? Where are the textile mill jobs? They have gone overseas like the computer programming jobs, so American corporations can maximize their profits and so they can reward their stockholders who have not dropped an ounce of sweat to reap their financial gains.

What do those 55% of high school graduates coming out each year have to look forward to? Certainly not a living wage. The military battlefields are their best chance for a living wage. What is becoming of this country? Why are we ignoring the needs of common people to find meaningful labor? Our policy makers are not thinking American anymore. The greed is unbridled.

[OlympicBrian]

6. Some interesting facts from a book I'm reading...

China is graduating roughly three times the engineers as the US.
India is graduating roughly twice the engineers as the US.

US enrollment in computer and engineering programs is dropping, because people fear the jobs are headed offshore.

[OlympicBrian]

7. And to add insult to injury...

The new tax proposals from the deficit commission: "Reduce the corporate income tax rate to 28 percent from 35 percent, and stop taxing the overseas profits of U.S.-based multinational corporations."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_deficit_commission

This will likely lead to more overseas investment, rather than here in the US. And besides, corporate profits are at record levels and corporations don't need tax cuts.

So they get to ship your job overseas to India, employee somone over there (who pays no US income taxes), and they can sell to customers abroad and pay zero US corporate income taxes.

Pure profit.

[Toucano]

8. That's the whole point of globalization, no?

Computer programmers in India are paid like retail salespersons and cashiers in the U.S.

That's how you get record profits, unseen in the history of the world.

[OlympicBrian]

9. Actually programmers and engineers in India are paid fairly well

Actually programmers and engineers in India are paid fairly well, considering the cost of living is so much lower there. Though, they are clearly taken advantage of.

And to answer your question about the "point of globalization"...is it also to bankrupt the home nation by eroding the tax base while the corporations take everything?

I mean, look at where we are: record corporate profits+record unemployment+record deficit?

Big joke on every US citizen!

"Economic theory assumes that capitalists pursuing their individual interests are led to benefit the general welfare of their society by an indivisible hand. But offshoring, or the pursuit of absolute advantage, breaks the connection between the profit motive and the general welfare. The beneficiaries of offshoring are the corporations' shareholders and top executives and the foreign country, the GDP of which rises when its labor is substituted for the corporations' home labor. Every time a corporation offshores its production, it converts domestic GDP into imports. The home economy loses GDP to the foreign country that gains it."
- Paul Craig Roberts, Economist, former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury, former editor and columnist Wall Street Journal, Businessweek
http://www.creators.com/opinion/paul-craig-roberts/cato-s-trade-report-blinded-by-ideology.html

[Toucano]

10. "...cost of living is much lower there..."

That's not a factor in determining what it costs IBM to convert their labor into profits.

As a business cost, a computer programmer in India is the comparable to a cashier in the U.S.

"Paid quite well" compared to a cashier in India, but not "paid quite well" from the perspective of IBM.

They sell the product in the U.S. for the same price, regardless of what flag flew over the programmer's head.
This is - obviously - extremely appealing to them.



Unless we reject their fairytale that globalization is good for everybody (it's only good for the wealthy, regardless of nationality), it will simply get worse.

Maybe it two or three generations, there will be no place left on the planet where they can find cheaper labor, and an equilibrium will be reached among laborers. But that will be very painful for the U.S. and Europe who would reach that equilibrium by coming down.

It's a nightmare.

Capital knows no national boundary and salutes no flag. Until labor does the same, it can only get worse.

[leftstreet]

11. +1

Capital knows no national boundary and salutes no flag. Until labor does the same, it can only get worse.

[OlympicBrian]

12. Agree nt

[Joe Fields]

13. I appreciate your input.

No truer words can be spoken on this subject. We are seeing a lot of pain right now, but it is nothing compared to what is in store 5, 10, or 20 years down the road.

[OlympicBrian]

14. Right, they would have to fix...

US tax loopholes which allow corporations to permanently postpone repatriation of profits gained overseas, that leads them to both avoid paying US corporate income taxes, and to re-invest in overseas operations instead of in the US (which means no new US jobs.)

And just how likely is this to happen?

[piedmont]

15. The numbers are meaningless without comparison to other nations or

to earlier such surveys of the U.S. One would expect to see that the service jobs dominate the rankings in any modern industrialized economy, regardless of how "well" it's doing. Why on earth would R&D workers be even 1/20 as plentiful as cashiers? The "missing" jobs are probably in factory assembly, because machines have taken most of them and many of the others were sent overseas. But there's not enough data here to say that.

[OlympicBrian]

16. The numbers are very meaningful, they speak volumes

Read the whole thread, and the linked-in thread. You're missing out on the big picture, as well as several sub-points.

You would expect those low-end types of service jobs to dominate to such a large degree? The only service jobs I found in the list which require a college degree are accountants and nurses, and some managers.

With no disrespect to the people that do the other jobs in the list--those jobs are not very rewarding. But they are numerous, clearly.

And I still don't see that you have a point. You're happy that manufacturing jobs have turned into low-end service jobs? Moreover, what if, for example, the UK is also as heavily reliant on low-end service jobs, and an underlying credit/consumerist model?

Turns out, the UK, like the US, (and Spain, hmm) is running a large negative current account balance.

Incidentally, my partner, who works for a major US insurance company, recently had 150 applicants for a single position--which requires a law degree. This is but one piece of evidence that there are a lot of potential high-end service jobs that are missing--the unemployed and underemployed white-collar workers, beyond just programmers.

[piedmont]

18. No, they do not.

"You would expect those low-end types of service jobs to dominate to such a large degree? The only service jobs I found in the list which require a college degree are accountants and nurses, and some managers."

Yeah, so what? 71% of American workers don't have a college degree. Since the 29% who do are split into many different specialized jobs, why would you expect one of those to be ranked on a list that includes cashiers and sales people?


"And I still don't see that you have a point. What if, for example, the UK is also as heavily reliant on retail and food service, and an underlying credit/consumerist model? They, like the US, are running a large negative current account balance."

You say that the recovery is going slowly because high-skill jobs are going overseas. I'm not in opposition to this thesis, but the data provided is incapable of supporting it. It's like saying "somebody stole my BMW!" and providing a photograph of an empty garage as proof. What did these rankings look like in the Carter or Reagan years? How did they change over time? If you say that China and India "took" those jobs, should the lists look different in those countries?

"My partner, who works for a major US insurance company recently had 150 applicants for a single position--which requires a law degree."
And your point is...?

Edit to add:
By the way,you may be interested in Hannah Bell's thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9662699

[OlympicBrian]

19. Reading Hannah's piece of course we don't need more scientists, engineers, etc. in the US

Reading Hannah's link...of course we don't need more scientists, engineers, etc. in the US, if companies invest in overseas research facilities--which they are. His thread cites high-tech worker visas as being one job-draining factor--but the top users of these visas are Indian offshoring companies. I have the tables on my Kindle.

I'm not saying the recovery is slow only due to highly-skilled jobs going overseas, but jobs of all types. Foxconn in China has 500,000 subcontractors making many "American" products.

If the simple fact that IBM has more than 75,000 employees now in India alone (since 1992) can't provide you with an "Hmm" moment--then I'm sorry you shouldn't bother wasting your time reading this thread or investigating further. Likewise with 150 lawyers applying for the same position as an example.

John F. Welch Technology Centre, Bangalore
"GE's first and largest global lab outside the United States is located in Bangalore, India. The John F. Welch Technology Centre (JFWTC) houses close to 3,000 GE technologists from Global Research and other GE businesses."

China Technology Center, Shanghai
"Located in Shanghai, China, the GE China Technology Center conducts research and engineering development for GE businesses around the world."

Global Research – Europe, Munich
"Located in Germany on the campus of the Technical University of Munich, Global Research – Europe brings technology development closer to our key customers across Europe."
http://www.ge.com/company/research_development.html

Edit: forgot to mention the research tax-haven Ireland as another preferential offshoring location--Merck, Microsoft, Intel, others.
"Ireland hosts one of the largest Intel manufacturing site outside of the United States. It’s also a hub for some of the most exciting technology and manufacturing research currently taking place in Europe."
http://www.intel.com/corporate/europe/emea/irl/intel/index.htm?iid=IRLSHORT+Lisbon&

p.s. The most recent figure on Americans with college degrees is 37.9 percent (including those under 25, your figure is only for those older than 25.) That's more than one in three.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/23/states-with-the-highest-p_1_n_735588.html#s143648

[Greyhound]

17. Less that half a million programmers left in the U.S.?

That is really shocking, if it's true.

Thanks Bill, you feckless asshole!

[Greyhound]

20. Damn. Now that I've looked at the source I'm feeling in good company.

Less than 368K programmers? Shocking!

But hey kids, make sure and stay in school, get good grades, work hard and take on a pile of debt so that you too can work in a polyester uniform.

Disgraceful.

[OlympicBrian]

21. kick

[OlympicBrian]

22. Temporary retail service jobs

Source: WSJ
12/01/10

Private-sector payrolls continued to expand in November, with a large upward revision to October's number, according to data released Wednesday.

Meanwhile, manufacturing activity continued to expand in November, according to the Institute of Supply Management, but the pace of growth slowed a bit.
...
Service-sector jobs increased by 79,000 last month, while factory jobs rose by 16,000.
...
Other job reports released Wednesday were mixed.

TrimTabs estimated the U.S. economy added 117,000 jobs in November, the second consecutive monthly increase since May. However, the report warned the gains are driven by seasonal hiring and so are temporary.

Meanwhile, employers announced job cuts totaling 48,711 in November--28% higher than the planned layoffs reported in October. It was the highest job-cut total since March, according to global outplacement firm Challenger, Gray & Christmas, Inc.

[AngryAmish]

23. Not for long

Most of these jobs will be done by robots in a few years. Heck, they already have replaced a lot of cashiers at the grociery stor and Home Depot with robots.

[OlympicBrian]

24. That's a good point

The scan machines are eating into this top job category, as well as online sellers.

Let me say it again--why don't we tax Amazon and eBay sales?