The United States was founded on compromise?

[robinlynne]

Jim Lehrer just said on the newshour that Obama said that. That's not how I remember the founding of this country at all.

edited for typo.

[TBF]

1. A bit of revisionist history. nt

[JamesA1102]

20. How is it revisionist.

When Jefferson wrote the declaration of independence, he put in a clause about slavery. He had to take it out to get the votes of the southern colonies. He compromised.

[libertypirate]

26. Yeah right ! Obama talks like a freaking loser...

War is always about a complete break down in the ability to compromise. This country was founded because we shoved our foot up our oppressors ass.

Compromise is a word used mostly by the privileged, to get the rest of us to back down.

[TBF]

27. And there certainly wasn't much "compromising" done regarding the Native Americans -

the folks that were actually driven off their land when the "colonists" arrived.

[JamesA1102]

37. But they did compromise on slavery.

You can't deny that fact.

[TBF]

43. You mean when they decided a slave was 3/5 a person? That "compromise"? nt

[JamesA1102]

48. You can include that

But they compromised on slavery when the wrote the declaration.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

57. are you serious? what compromise?

either slavery was legal, or it was not. That's a binary situation, not a compromise position. "Oh, Look! here's a partial slave of mine. 5 of 7 days each week."

[JamesA1102]

62. Well then I guess you think Adams, Franklin and Jefferson caved

by removing the slavery clause from the declaration.

[former9thward]

68. Please read a little history

The 3/5 compromise had nothing to do with whether slavery was legal or not. It had to do with representation based on the population in a state. Black slaves were counted as 3/5 of a white for representation purposes (number of congressmen a state could have). This was the compromise that Obama talked about and he is 100% correct. In order for the U.S. to become a nation under a Constitution that was what was required. It had nothing at all to do with the revolution and England.

[JamesA1102]

36. So your saying that the founding fathers didn't compromise

on slavery?

[stray cat]

2. The colonies came up with the declaration of independence and the constitution,

Laws and governance - our current country is incapable of coming up with a tax plan.

Americans do not know their history and all they think about is war with britan instead of the foundation of a country and what it took

[TBF]

28. The "foundation" of the country - we are talking about the European land grab, correct? nt

[JoePhilly]

47. The founding document for this Country is the US Constitution.

Do you not know that?

And that document SCREAMS compromise. From setting up 3 co-equal branches of government, one of which is again SPLIT into 2 parts (the House and Senate), to the process for amending the founding document itself.

No one branch of government, and certainly no one person, has final authority on any thing.

That notion of DIVIDED POWER is at the core of our FOUNDING DOCUMENT.

I expect a significant lack of Constitutional awareness from the Tea Party folks, but not so much on DU.

[bushisanidiot]

52. +10000

excellent post!

[Hosnon]

54. +. The Constitution is a document dripping with compromise. nt.

[TBF]

55. You completely ignored my point. We stole land to create a country.

That is nothing to be proud of.

[JoePhilly]

56. Then I guess your point is irrelevant.

Where did anyone say they were "proud" of that early part of America's history?

The first Europeans arrived in the 1400s, some would argue even earlier.

At the time, the native American tribes all ready fought with each other long before the Europeans arrived. After the European's arrived, some of the native American tribes formed alliances with the Europeans. Importantly, America was not a unified country. Its existing population was basically a bunch of loosely affiliated tribes and settlements, all in various forms of competition.

But that is not what this thread is about. This thread is about whether this nation was founded on COMPROMISE, and Obama claimed.

The NATION of AMERICA was founded on a document that spells out how the NATION will be governed. And as I said earlier, it SCREAMS compromise.

What is your argument exactly ... that this nation was founded on FORCE, and Obama should STICK WITH FORCE???

Or ... is your point that America is evil, and its founding should be reversed. Bottom line, your point makes no sense in this thread.

[TBF]

58. So we are then talking about only acceptable points in history that back up Mr. Obama's point ?

Of course there is going to be compromise when two groups are negotiating but what Obama is doing is not compromising - it's called giving away the farm.

[JoePhilly]

59. You still don't seem to get it.

Your post argued that the country was NOT founded on compromise, but by force.

I demonstrated very clearly that you are wrong.

You made your argument to dispute Obama's claim regarding the role of compromise in our nation's founding. For your argument to make sense, you would have to be arguing that the country was founded on force, and as such, I guess you think Obama should be using force, not compromise.

What I find most interesting is that folks like you on DU, are angry because you don't like the compromise. So you felt the need to disagree with his very accurate statement about the founding of this nation.

So you see, it is not I who was looking to back up Obama ... it is you, and others like you, who have taken your anger about the elements of the compromise to further argue, in correctly, that our nation was NOT founded on compromise.

[TBF]

60. There is no way to defend Mr. Obama's "compromise" unless you are in favor of regressive republican

policies.

Yes there have been compromises in history - and yes this country was founded on a land grab. Is the president using force now? Yes, he is pounding through a "compromise" (which is a euphamism for "I am really a republican and this is what we're doing").

You may support that, I do not.

[JoePhilly]

61. You are all over the map.

So Obama is doing a "land grab", and using force ... bwahahahahahaha!!!!!

The Congress would have to actually write the legislation, and then PASS IT. Talk about a compromise.

But hey, at least your real point is in this response. You don't like the compromise. There are parts of it I don't like. Doesn't make it any less of a compromise, and does nothing to refute Obama's correct statement about the role of compromise in this country's founding.

I wish the House and Senate has some balls back in the summer, put serious bills on the floor, and ran on this issue. They did not. They punted.

Leaving the mess to Obama. So he's put a framework agreement in place. And now ... well, well, the Dems in the House are screaming ... now that they got their butts handed to them.

[TBF]

64. Try a reading comprehension class, maybe it will help. nt

[JoePhilly]

69. What a powerful non-response. nt

[Motown_Johnny]

3. they compromised on slaves, and that they counted as 3/5 of a human

Yes, this country was founded in compromise. To our un-dieing shame.

[CBGLuthier]

46. Yes. Yes Indeed! And 100 years later the rivers flowed with blood

as we corrected our compromise.

I wonder how long it will take this time?

[donco6]

4. Doesn't armed revolution preclude compromise?

:shrug:

[KharmaTrain]

8. And What About After The Revolution

...trying to meld 13 and then 14 (including Vermont) separate colonies into one national entity. The entire Constitutional conventional was all about how compromises would be dealt with. Read up on the Constitutional convention and see how much was compromised.

[Occam Bandage]

9. It didn't start as an armed revolution.

It started as a reform movement by loyal British subjects demanding equal rights under the law.

[donco6]

18. And they compromised by . . . ?

Killing the British?

[Occam Bandage]

24. There was a decade of broad agitation for reform before the first shots were fired.

The British responded to every invocation of constitutional rights with increasingly punitive measures. It is true that it eventually came to war, but it was not a war that was explicitly sought.

[donco6]

34. I don't see any of that as "compromise" at all.

Now the Constitutional Convention, yeah, that makes some sense. But the build up to Revolution was more like a series of mini-revolts, answered with ever-more-punitive edicts. No compromise there at all.

No capitulation either, BTW.

[TBF]

29. No it was more like a hostile takeover -

the "start" was not a "reform movement". The "start" was sailing to an unfamiliar land and claiming it as their own, with no regard to the indigenous folks already living there.

[robinlynne]

12. Thank-you.

[iamjoy]

It Was Indeed...

Big compromises on slavery...

[rucky]

5. Well, we did give the Native Americans the reservations

after we took their land.

That's sort of the GOP version of compromise.

[Autumn]

6. I cringed when I

heard him say that.:crazy: I guess whatever it takes to get you through the compromise.

[Bluerthanblue]

25. I guess you don't know your history.

This country wouldn't exist if not for compromise.

Do some research.

:shrug:

[Autumn]

32. Hi. how are you.

Damn public education. Here I thought we got tired of the king taxing our tea and decided to have a war for independence. Was the compromise before we got fed up with no representation? Seriously, I am not a history major.

[Bluerthanblue]

39. public school education

here as well. But I'm an avid reader.

It wasn't simply about taxing tea- and it wasn't without conflict or compromise.

If you are really interested here is something to start with.

These are more factual than entertaining-
pre-war
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h650.html

Take note especially of the section headed, "His politics" on each of the individuals.
The hammering out of the country was not pretty or easy. It has been tweaked continually over the years.

http://www.constitutionfacts.com/?section=foundingFathers&page=aboutFathers.cfm

Hope these help.

Democracy is the art of compromise.

[Igel]

40. You're confused about what the "founding" of the United States is.

It was not the Tea Party. It was not the Declaration of Independence. It was not the war with Britain.

Even the Declaration of Independence involved compromise. The war with Britain may not have compromised with Britain, but if you read the Declaration of Independence and listen to what the words mean you can't *help* but see the references to attempts to compromise. The "bad guy" in all of this refused to compromise--King George. He was right. He had won the divine lottery. His election by God had consequences. No compromise needed with the head of the Church of England in the exercise of his duties. One of the more stupid decisions ever taken by a ruler.

The US itself was founded twice. We had a government and even a series of presidents before George Washington. We had a confederacy before we had a republic, United States 0.9 beta. Masses of compromise in that. Not a very effective government, even after the war ended. It washed away the need for some of the compromise. Total rewrite of the "source code" for the official release in 1789.

Good ol' GW was the first president under the second constitution. Which also contained compromise. One notable one--slavery. Lots of little ones, too. Even in the laws and statutes as passed by Congress after the new Constitution was put in place we see compromises. The Bill of Rights was put in the Constitution as a compromise. Some thought such a thing required in the Constitution; others said it wasn't. To get enough signatures to adopt the Constitution without the Bill of Rights, those opposed to having the Bill of Rights included compromised and agreed to having the Bill of Rights be offered for quick ratification after the Constitution was adopted; those believing the Bill of Rights was essential compromised and ratified the Constitution with no enforceable guarantee that the Bill of Rights would actually be ratified and made part of the Constitution.

Some compromises were bad. The one dubbed "Missouri." The inclusion of slavery in the US Constitution. The Articles of Confederation. Probably even the inclusion of the Bill of Rights, since people have taken to assuming that they are an exhaustive list of rights that the federal government is bound to honor. Some cases of non-compromise were also bad, as well.

But, no, no compromise anywhere to be found. Not really, or at least nothing even remotely important. After all, the temporary tax non-increase for the rich certainly is more important than trivial things like the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Public school education, class of '77.

[Bluerthanblue]

50. wow! well done-

thank you for this.

:hi:

[704wipes]

41. well he talked about not being able to walk through front door

of the white house himself at one time. Certainly true dat.
Is he revealing some psychological truth about himself?

[Occam Bandage]

7. It was. The Articles of Confederation were a morass of mandatory compromise.

The Constitution was an improvement, but compromised heavily on slavery and the slave trade. The Senate/House setup we have now was a compromise between large-population and small-population states. And if you want to turn the clock back to the War for Independence, most on the pro-independence side began as agitators for reform, and only turned to radicalism once London made it clear that there would be no compromise whatsoever.

[robinlynne]

14. Your last phrase says it all. had they compromised with London there would be no United States as

we know it.

[Occam Bandage]

16. True, but it wasn't the colonists who were refusing to compromise.

Had London extended to the Colonies equal legal rights and protections, the United States might today be part of the Commonwealth of Nations.

[robinlynne]

33. Look at the GOP today as London then. Look at the colonist's reaction and look at Obama's reaction.

big difference.

[inna]

10. you know, i THOUGHT i heard Obama say that. and then, i was, like,

he could not have possibly said that.

oh well, nothing shocks me anymore.

[jefferson_dem]

11. Look up The Great Compromise, Three-Fifths Compromise, The Massachusetts Compromise...

Federalists, Anti-Federalists...

Then report back. Thanks.

The historical ignorance in this thread is downright embarrassing.

[emulatorloo]

15. THANK YOU.

Way too much posturing going on and not enough actual history,

[tammywammy]

31. +1 n/t

[Nye Bevan]

13. I think the small states liked fixed number of representatives per state

and the large states wanted number of representatives to be proportional to population. So they compromised with one system for the House and the other system for the Senate.

[Mass]

17. A compromise concerning slavery. Actually many before the Civil War.

Among others.

Unrec because you know better.

[KittyWampus]

53. reading down this thread, I have to wonder if DU'ers really are that ignorant.

[Canuckistanian]

19. Sure

The Patriots got the country, wealth and independence.

The British got the right NOT to be slaughtered in the streets if they left. They exercised that option.

[struggle4progress]

21. Constitution: Article I, Section 9, Paragraph 1: "The Migration or Importation of such Persons as

any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person."

What do you think that is? It's a compromise on the slave trade: it's not banned outright, but Congress does have the power to ban it beginning in 1808

[Bluerthanblue]

22. then you may not know as much about the founding of this country as you think-

There was quite abit of give and take that went on in the founding of this country- and for the first several decades the power struggles and conflicts were intense.

Jefferson and Adams had some pretty strong differences. If you recall, originally the idea was that whoever came in second for president was supposed to be vice-president. That didn't last long at all. If not for compromise this country would have ended soon after it began.

Do some research, it's actually pretty interesting.

[bullwinkle428]

23. Remember when Washington and Cornwallis played checkers in order

to settle their differences in the "so-called" Revolutionary War?

:sarcasm:

[notesdev]

35. Checkers?

I thought it was ten dimensional hyper super chess!

[Autumn]

38. I thought it was

Chutes and Ladders, but what do I know.

[tulsakatz]

30. I believe that's true....

..especially related to politics. People rarely get everything they want in a piece of legislation but they usually get some of the more important aspects of it.

And there are differences regarding how something is compromised. The GOP gave up a few things that weren't very important to them to get something big. True, they may not have wanted to pay for unemployment but they got much more of what they wanted by extending tax cuts. What did we get? Not much in my opinion.

By giving in to GOP demands, Obama has made himself look very weak. He is the president, after all! He should be pushing those guys around instead of being bullied by the opposition party!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

42. Yes...our Congress is a compromise that you hear about every day.

[TBF]

44. How come when Mr. Obama compromises we always lose?

We have a "jobless recovery" (oxymoron), our social programs are being decimated, and our LGBT community is still being discriminated against.

[Le Taz Hot]

45. He's right.

Followed by a Civil War 70+ years later and a long, painful, tragic struggle for full rights for minorities, women, workers and the poor. Great compromise. Unless you were one of the VAST MAJORITY who had absolutely NO rights. We fought a Revolution FOR the Power Elite to break free from tyranny, only to be tyrannized. Fuck compromise.

[mmonk]

49. Yes, Revolution is compromise.

Don't you remember seeing that in your history books?

:sarcasm:

[ecstatic]

51. uggh. Go look for the entire clip instead of quoting out of context

This country was founded through means that are completely unacceptable today. Same thing went for social security, which originally only helped a narrow group of people.

[LawnLover]

63. Of course it was

Do you really think you can realistically put that many people in a room and get them to all agree without compromise? If you do, you're delusional.

[lunatica]

65. They compromised with King George dontcha know

In exchange for us not dumping any more tea in the Boston Harbor will you please give us our independence?

[madinmaryland]

66. Ask umpteen million slaves about compromise. nt

Yes there has been compromise throughout the entire history of this country and it has been ugly.

[WinkyDink]

67. Perhaps he refers to AFTER the Revolution? But he ignores THE REVOLUTION!