Here is something about revolutions...

[nadinbrzezinski]

they are not fought by those in the wishy washy center. They are not done by the pompom carriers across history either.

They are carried out by very angry people...

And right now there are people on the left in this country that are really pissed, and people on the right who are very pissed. They might not agree about most things, but they agree that they are pissed.

One of the things they are pissed is bankser protection.

Another are these tax cuts.

So for those of you who cannot see this... there is where real revolts start.

Now let me explain something to those confused about inciting them, by watching trends, here is what happens when you have a really nasty revolution happen. You got a neighbor going somebody else's house in the middle of the night, and slashing their throats.

You also got death squads walking into a town, massing up all males of military age and either shooting them on the spot or forcing into the army. Yep, that is what happened in Central America A LOT.

Here is more. A favorite tactics is rape, organized, unrelenting and unforgiving.

It is knowing that the ONLY WAY to avoid having to take sides is to leave your country.

So for those of you who think any of us with a fucking clue celebrate this trend... I hate to break this to you, but some of us have far more of a clue of what this means than any of you do.

Suffice it to say... the anger is there... it is growing and there is precious little I can do to change them at this point. I do not expect things to get any better any more, not until we have a lot of the pain I just described...That is truly my nightmare, but the powers that be are determined to lead us down the nose down this path.

That is the truth... and it is not one party... but ideology...

Oh and today we did watch history.... and not precisely the kind that I like to watch either. I much prefer to watch the mostly inconsequential but fun history of who wins a world cup... or the olympics, not this very serious, it matters to people's lives kind of history.

So if you are going to accuse me of actually encouraging something... realize that tells me more about you than you want to know. Oh and also remember the lessons of history is that things do, to a point, repeats, and it does not matter how many times you go la, la, la, la... TRENDS are indeed picking up speed.

[OregonBlue]

1. Huh?

[Still a Democrat]

8. Grab a pitchfork

I think we're storming the castle.

[OregonBlue]

16. Well, not a REAL pitchfork. A virtual pitchfork. Remember we are all keyboard warriors here. LOL

I doubt that many here would be willing to actually get up and DO anything but it's fun to talk about it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. You are leading? Or perhaps you should re-read the OP

and try for once to understand it. None who have been there done that in any capacity. mine as a humanitarian worker. celebrate these trends.

Alas we are not afraid to point them out either.

Serious, TRY readying comp...

[OregonBlue]

24. Try readying comp...? Did you even read your own post? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.Try

readying comp? "None who have been there done that in any capacity. mine as a humanitarian worker. celebrate these trends. Alas we are not afraid to point them out either"?

I honestly don't have a clue what you are talking about.

[apocalypsehow]

25. After that rambling, reductive OP, you have the gall to tell another poster "TRY reading comp"?

That's rich, there. :eyes:

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[apocalypsehow]

27. Ahhhh, now, don't go breakin' my heart.

:cry: :cry: :cry:

Elton John & Kiki Dee speak for me!

[SidDithers]

39. You're in good company, btw...

:hi:

Sid

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

46. Eventually anyone who dares argue with her

ends up on her ignore list. She and she alone is capable of Seeing Trends and of Knowing History.

[cali]

52. yep.

[HuckleB]

76. Exactly.

When a great deal of the "anger" derives from televised propaganda artists, and when those who are angry really offer no positive change, all you have is empty anger. There will be no revolution, no matter how much the drama junkies pretend otherwise.

[immune]

80. "There will be no revolution"

I am skeptical of the "never say never" crowd. They are usually proven wrong at some juncture of never.

[HuckleB]

81. Did I say never?

Isn't it funny how you had to put words in my mouth in order to criticize something?

This is a practice that is all too common at DU now, and it's time to end this practice.

[immune]

82. You said

"there will be NO revolution", without qualifiers. Maybe you could be a little clearer in your prognostications so no one will misinterpret your words.

[HuckleB]

83. Oh brother.

Now you're claiming that part of my post doesn't exist. Read the content of my post. The qualifiers come before "there will be no revolution."

You are playing pointless games. Please cut the crap.

[immune]

88. I read your post..

You also said: "Angry people offer no positive change" .... so let's start there. What positive changes do you think people (angry or not) could offer that would be possible to effect change? I'm not trying to be argumentative, just asking where you think current trends are leading and what you would advise people who dislike the direction we're going in to do.

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
John F. Kennedy, In a speech at the White House, 1962
35th president of US 1961-1963 (1917 - 1963)

[HuckleB]

93. Once again you change what I actually wrote, so you can offer a response to your own creation.

Here's what I wrote in full (with the part you changed in your most recent part in italics):

"When a great deal of the "anger" derives from televised propaganda artists, and when those who are angry really offer no positive change, all you have is empty anger. There will be no revolution, no matter how much the drama junkies pretend otherwise."

Notice how you changed the reality of what I wrote before responding, yet again?

Now, if you want to criticize what I actually wrote, in full context, please do.

Until you can do that, I see no purpose in discussing anything with you. You are not discussing my post, you are discussing your own creation, spun from selected parts of my post, out of context.

This is all very obvious. Again, I ask you to please cut the crap.

[immune]

95. Well geez,

it was such a simple question.

So addressing the "complete" context of your post, how do you know the anger derives from televised propaganda artists? You don't. How do you know the anger is empty? You don't. And since you asked so nicely, actually I see more drama in your post tham in the OP.

[HuckleB]

96. ROTFLMAO!

Perhaps I don't know. But the evidence that the anger does derives from those sources is just as valid, and probably more valid, than the evidence than any revolution is coming. The sources used at DU by those who push the revolution meme are quite obvious, for example. Further, since nothing but minor items, which occur quite frequently, are used as evidence as a portent of revolution, the emptiness is quite obvious, no matter how dramatic those acts are portrayed.

After your repeated attempts at rewriting what I actually wrote, it's hardly surprising that you would offer a pointless "opinion" in regard to drama. Unfortunately, you offer no support for your opinion, and after repeated dishonest criticism of your own creations, well, your credibility is non existent.

Goodbye.

[emulatorloo]

2. The problem with echo chambers is the tendency to confuse a minority opinion as the way "everybody

thinks."

For every teabagger who is caught up in that world, it seems like every body thinks like they do, But they don't, most of their positions and ideas are way out of the mainstream.

DU is the same way, it is a bubble though and does not represent the real world or real world Democrats.

Maybe you are right about where we are, but I am not seeing it yet.

Thanks for posting though, I appreciated reading what you wrote. It is thought provoking so I am going to recommend it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Alas it is inside those bubbles that revolts actually start

whether it is the Paris Comune of 1871 or today.

And they usually start way in the fringe. The problem is when they pick up steam. They only do when there is real anger... why I was careful to say anger in the left and the right... aka those bubbles.

We are at a tipping point in DC... all the theater today in DC was not inconsequential. Most of the meaning will be lost outside DC, unless we start paying very close attention. But the revolt for the House is not inconsequential.

[emulatorloo]

7. I'm in my mid-fifties, I've been hearing about imminent revolution for most of those years.

I even thought my self that is was coming during the Reagan era. So I guess I have a little different perspective on it. I just don't see it right now. You are right that economic instability is a problem right now, it always brings up angry people and demagogues. There is so many more outlets for demagoguery today.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. I know, why I have just pointing the trends

right now what we have is something more than a riot, but not quite a revolution.

IT is in the air, like 1968, which was global, and was not a revolution.

But if we actually go there as a country it will come from either the far right or the far left. That is where it will start. And I really do not want to see that.

[HuckleB]

77. +1

These redundant "revolution is coming" posts serve as nothing but entertainment for those in need of a little adrenaline.

[intheflow]

4. I've been saying this for years.

Trod on the People long enough and they're going to trod back. And it won't be pretty. And it won't be fun. And it won't change anything immediately. And I wish it didn't have to happen, that everyone could just get along, play nice and share. But playing nice is not the nature or the history of most social justice change. :(

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Nope, but some folks here actually accused me of

inciting to violence by just tracking trends.

Also at this point my pom pom list is growing... mostly I am tired of that inanity.

And there is a saying in Spanish you will appreciate.

...There is no ill that last 100 years, not any fool that will bear it...

No hay mal que dure cien anos no tonto que lo aguante

[Taverner]

6. Here is something else about revolutions...

People die.

Very good people die. Very evil people die, but mostly - lots of people, good and bad, die.

Mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, uncles, aunts, grandparents, grandkids and all kinds of people die.

And I can testify that even the most noble revolution was immoral to its core because of this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Alas my friend you were less graphic

I thought stating the shootings and the throats slit were clear.

:-)

and you know what else? If they get bad enough the dead are the lucky ones. I still wonder what happened to the fifteen year old I help debrief... quiet, shaking on the corner, avoiding eye contact. She was raped many a times. Her frail body still is with me.

[Taverner]

12. I knew folks who survived Pinochet

Everything you say is true, but most Americans will just say "Pshaw! That's Central America!" and never give it another thought.

However, lots of people love their mother.

Who would want to play Guernica with their mom?

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Well Americans think is fun

and glorify war.

Why? The last internal conflict ended in 1865... and while people know of Gettysburg, few see this...



That is not Dresden, that's Atlanta...

[Taverner]

17. There was lots of death in the Civil war

Nothing noble about that war, despite how Turner spins it...

Nothing noble about war any way - Hitler could have been stopped years ago with a non-military solution...and WWII's as close as we get to a noble war

[TheKentuckian]

38. What non-military solution? Appeasement failed.

Not everyone is reachable.

I tend to think you are living and breathing a fantasy but I'd love to see how Hitler is stopped peaceably or the Japanese for that matter.

Desirable but pure whimsy.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

41. Hitler could have been stopped by not bankrupting Germany

after World War I and not demanding that the Kaiser step down. Allowing economic chaos and a power vacuum in a culture that valued obedience to authority was simply asking for trouble.

[TheKentuckian]

42. No, that is preventing Hitler not stopping him when he has power.

It also is speculative other countries have been hit harder and failed to churn out such a threat.

[Taverner]

102. Oh once he had power, yes, then we had to do it

But it wasn't noble. It was survival.

[JVS]

62. Nobody demanded that the Kaiser abdicate. He did it on his own to avoid the dishonor of defeat.

[Taverner]

101. Exactly - had the League of nations been there

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. Why the Marshal Came to be

[Taverner]

99. Oh I wasn't talking about Appeasement

I was thinking more a League of Nations solution that keeps Germany from going bankrupt, and thus never electing a certain colonel named Adolf

[GreenStormCloud]

107. Hitler was a corporal, not a colonel. N/T

[Taverner]

116. Sorry - corporal

Even less of a rank - makes sense

Even his 'Beer Hall Putsch' was ill advised

He was damn lucky

[GreenStormCloud]

117. Amazingly lucky. He survived several assassination attempts by dumb luck. N/T

[Taverner]

118. Yes

But then again, he died in Berlin, covered in 'petrol', in a ditch

Not a way to go out

[RKP5637]

30. Not a pretty sight. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Nope, not pretty at all

[walldude]

14. True.. but we are entering a new era...

Never before have people had such... access. A bloodless revolution is entirely possible these days. Not saying it will happen or it will happen that way but the possibility is there...

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. The first was the Orange Revolution

even if the CIA was heavily involved...

And I think we need to think on how to achieve that. If indeed we want to effect social change. Realize though that power surrenders nothing, so even if you and I want to march peacefully. that does not mean people will not get killed.

Gandhi knew that, and so did MLK.

[Taverner]

20. Thailand was a bloodless coup

They kind of perfected the art of the bloodless coup...unlike their neighbor Cambodia...

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

72. IMO sad that we can't negotiate an 11 state solution before things get to that point...

We're not there yet, but it's getting to the point that what binds us is the Republicans deep seeded need for beating liberals.

Here's the 10 state map (dividing East Coast and West Coast into 2 states yields 11), which is based on voting patterns of these regions.

I long to live in Mega-Chicago someday...


http://massinc.typepad.com/beyondredandblue/2007/09/beyond-red-blue.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Thanks that is striking

I did this on my own for a background for fiction. I wish I had these maps.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

74. You got me curious, nadin...

...are you the author of the Future Nexus books?

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. Yes...

had to pull that business out, and may rewrite some of them to try to get them done somewhere else.

But yes, oh let me clarify, I ran a game company called Deist Games, and the game was called future nexus with three novels set in the world... so I am guessing not this

Been working on a near future setting with a broken up US since oh two years now. And one of the things I had to figure out is where the US would naturally break up.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

86. your musings, though sometimes cryptic, are interesting nonetheless...

...cryptic is not a bad thing, either. :)

[walldude]

10. Roger Waters... YOU BETTER RUN!

The Powers That Be:


They like a tough game
No rules
Some you win, some you lose
Competition's good for you
They're dying to be free
They're the powers that be
They like a bomb proof cadillac
Air conditioned, gold taps,
Back seat gun rack, platinum hub caps
They pick horses for courses
They're the market forces
Nice car Jack
They like order, make-up, lime light power
Game shows, rodeos, star wars, TV
They're the powers that be
If you see them come,
You better run - run
You better run on home

Sisters of mercy better join your brothers
Put a stop to the soap opera right now
They say the toothless get ruthless
You better run on home

You better run - run
You better run on home

The powers that be
They like treats, tricks, carrots and sticks
They like fear and loathing, they like sheep's
clothing
And blacked-out vans

Blacked-out vans, contingency plans
They like death or glory, they love a good story
They love a good story

Sisters of mercy better join with your brothers
Put a stop to the soap opera state
They say the toothless get ruthless
Run home before its too late
You better run - run
You better run on home



THEY SAY THE TOOTHLESS GET RUTHLESS......

Rog is brilliant. I saw The Wall tour two weeks ago.. during Run Like Hell he showed the Wikileaks video of the helicopter attack... He knows what's coming.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Nice poetry

thanks for sharing

[the redcoat]

19. If these cuts pass, I'll be the one

standing outside in the cold with a picket sign on January 3rd in front of the Capitol Building, even if I have to do it myself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. I doubt you will be alone

These are trends and they are picking up speed

[BzaDem]

22. Here's something about the "mad" people you refer to: they always believe tomorrow is the revolution

each and every day.

So if this coping mechanism makes you happier, good luck with that.

[FamousBlueRaincoat]

28. i like your writing style nadinbrzezinski

I just wanted to mention that, since I think it was unfairly put down by some people. Lots of people who were taught how to read in elementary school and haven't done much reading since. I get the same all the time (elsewhere, I'm new here). No comment otherwise.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Thanks and welcome to DU

:hi:

[Ikonoklast]

31. 50 angry posters on a message board is not a 'revolution'.

There are no bodies in the streets...nor will there be any.

A few people pissed off here does not translate into political nationwide anarchy, no matter how hard you spin it.


You are seeing a political flap over tax rates, that will be solved using the political process in place, not howitzers.

[xiamiam]

33. i think the first shot was fired by wikileaks..and i think it may very well be unlike

anything we have experienced or imagined. I'm 60. My life is turned upside down in the past several years. My dreams and plans are toast as my eyes roll around in my head wondering wtf just happened. Multiply that x several million who are changed.. once the shock and humiliation dissipate, anger surfaces... collective disgust and anger by millions upon millions of us. We have watched America change drastically in less than a decade. Unrecognizable...all of it.
Something has to happen. I don't know what. I know the internet is a huge part of it and will not require millions of us in the streets with tempers flaring. This is the 21st century and just watching 'anonymous' in action this week is an indication. These kids are their own future. They don't want what we've handed them, nor should they.
I have hope that people like Bernie Sanders will fan the flames of decency and democracy. I also think the world is united by the internet..and there are more of us who want the same thing than those who dont. Truth, justice, decency, fairness..peace.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Alas all that new tech will have to be joined

by very old tactics, including strikes and work slowdowns.

[xiamiam]

36. true..but word and actions spread like lightning now...its just an unprecendented time

nothing will surprise me at this juncture..we would be burnt toast if we didnt have the internet.. because it connects the masses quickly..i remember cesar chavez,,ufw.. boycotting grapes..it worked..we're talking decades ago but i still think about it every time i see grapes in the market..we're just beginning to feel collectively screwed..sidetracked by possibility of change which is not happening.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Yep, but boycots did work back then

since these companies were small enough. These days... it will have to be national strike I am afraid and INTERNATIONAL Unions, with international living wages.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Actually what I am seeing are trends

trends that you obviously have missed.

See them tea parties, screaming at the top of their lungs? That is a trend.

See the kids in the streets in London... again trend

You may chose to hide your head, but this is no longer a riot... it is not a revolution, but it is no longer a riot.

Also this flap of fifty people, nice way to dismiss it, is not just DU... as far as the US is.

Go on, talk to your neighbors, find out just how thrilled they are that the very rich will get another tax cut.

Go on... speak to your neighbors.

Now if you think this is one of those nothing to see here, well whatever... dont; say you were not warned that trends were taking shape.... and they have been taking shape and now accelerating for the last ten years.

Oh and one last thing, people actually expected some real change...

[MineralMan]

55. It sounds to me like you're breathing hard in anticipation

of the "revolution." Uff da!

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Having been there, done that, not really

I hope the people make the point well short of an actual civil war, for the reasons made in the OP.

But if looking at trends and UNDERSTANDING them is having a hard on for one, I guess... speaks loudly about you though to even think that.

Try re-reading the OP, I really cannot help you if you cannot understand the OP.

If you think I want to even hear of death squads again you are delusional.

[Ikonoklast]

105. Good luck with your book writing thing.

You will need it.



Trends.



My, oh my.

[SidDithers]

40. The apocalypse is nigh...

everyone make sure you've got your plastic sheeting and duct tape.

Sid

[Ikonoklast]

51. Throw in some salad oil, and you've got a party!

What!??

[True_Blue]

43. Rec!

We are in a really really bad recession and the only solutions I hear from the the Right are to slash safety nets for the poor and middle class and give the JOB CREATORS (those guys that shipped 100s of millions of jobs overseas) tax cuts. I am absolutely convinced that they are trying to completely destroy us all. There's almost constant propaganda anymore constantly bashing the poor and unemployed like we're the ones bleeding the economy or something to be loathed.


From an article that was posted on another thread..

Right there, among the sacred national structures that honor great Americans, we need to build a shiny monument to ... (this is where the drum roll would come in) The Rich -- otherwise known in liberal circles as the filthy, no-good, greedy, heartless rich.
..............

No, I'm not saying the wealthiest Americans are all a bunch of selfless philanthropists. But try to imagine an America without those rich people.

..............

So let's get busy on that shiny monument in our nation's capital. And let's get some unemployed people out there building it. It's the least they can do for those nice rich people who have been keeping them afloat.

http://www.aolnews.com/opinion/article/opinion-show-some-gratitude-to-the-rich/19752526

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Ah yes, and in that thread I pointed out

that happened in the 1880s.

As to the hate the poor, goes back to the 15th century...

Now we are in ... post riot stage, and into social protest stage, not yet open revolt and for all our sakes I hope we don't get there.

[Odin2005]

45. K&R. Wikileaks is the first shot.

[Warren DeMontague]

47. Maybe it's a generational thing

but I don't see some great millennial revolution coming, because some rock-throwers in Britain and France are pissed about tuition increases.

(Excuse me while I take out my whittlin' stick and put on my cranky old coot hat)

When I was in college, we protested The Contras. Reagan. The CIA. When the previous generation was in college, they protested... well, they'll be happy to talk your ear off for sixteen hours about it, before explaining to you why Peter Frampton is a genius.

Honestly I try to stay away from generational slammage and generalizing, but this alleged upswelling of populism we're seeing isn't exactly focused or even issue-oriented.



As far as Wikileaks goes; I agree it portends something of a revolution, but it's a revolution that has been in progress- and predicted- for some time, and it has more to do with the nature of consciousness and information exchange than it does with any sociopolitical structure or hoary old dogmas about dialectical materialism and the like. Information wants to be free- information WILL be free, and would-be censors and thought police of EVERY ideological stripe hate and fear that fact.

[cali]

50. well said.

[Artie Bucco]

48. I have read Children of Cain by Tina Rosenberg

It is interesting to see that what were considered relatively advanced (for Latin America) countries like Chile and Argentina had there coups and political violence. Hell, even Italy a decade long period of violence called the Years of Lead.

There have been notable instances of Right wingers pulling off violence against people they hate but fortunately the violence has been isolated. Sure, there are a few "extremists" people on the left but they are no where near as dangerous as the assorted right wing groups and lone wolves. I certainly don't think I will hear a report on the news that a crazy Leftist shot up or attempted to shoot a group of people he hated. However, it wouldn't surprise me to here about a crazy Right-winger or group shooting up a mosque, a group of day laborers, a gay club or any other targets that contain what they view as undesirables.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. I hate to point this out

but the KGB were not quite friendly and the 1930s in the USSR had about 30 million Kulaks killed.

Need I mention the Cultural Revolution in China? We have no clue how many people died.

How about the Killing Fields?

Both sides can do this.

I mean it. Authoritarians are Authoritarians, whether they do it in the name of the people or the name of the state or the corporations, the end result is the same.

To be honest is a type of mass psychosis that overtakes a society. (And we are well on our way to it, yet another trend, we call it closing of societies and it happens in both right and left societies)

[cali]

49. more condescending garbled nonsense about trends- as if

you actually know enough history to accurately assess them. And damned straight I think you have an itch. You are constantly predicting imminent revolution- and other things that don't pan out.

Will things get better? It's not what I expect, but I doubt that it will lead to what you predict and nor do things inevitably get better after the things you predict occur.

You aren't Cassandra. The cheap histrionics may fool a lot of people here, but not everyone.

It doesn't matter how many times you post this crap, it doesn't make it any more factual.

[inna]

53. do you really need to be so nasty? pretty ugly stuff right there, mostly projections btw.

[cali]

58. Not projections at all.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pathwalker]

59. And yet Nadin accurately predicted the economic crash in '08

TO THE WEEK. Many people here mocked her then, too. UNTIL it happened. Now, they're mocking her again. Same friggin' people.

[cali]

63. baloney.

first of all there was practically no one who wasn't predicting an economic meltdown- there were loads of predictions by pundits and economists predicting just that. secondly, she predicted a total collapse- which did not happen.

[Pathwalker]

65. Did those pundits foresee TARP and this administration's

continuing it? Did you?

[cali]

70. sure, some did.

I'm not big on making predictions myself, but let me say that the admins continuation of TARP didn't surprise me at all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Not quite to the week

but the indicators were there.

And this time I am putting all those fire breathers on ignore. Moderation is officially broken in my book when a mass can get away with that.

[Codeine]

61. Well said. nt

[greytdemocrat]

114. Hey!

Will Pitt was ready to buy a gun last night!!!!

[inna]

54. K&R btw, mostly to counter nasty comments in this thread

[MineralMan]

57. "Come the Revolution...."

I've been seeing this since the 1960s. It hasn't come yet, and I don't expect it to come soon. I'm afraid you'll be disappointed...

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Here is why you need to re-read the OP

I am NOT CALLING FOR ONE. I am just stating what happens FOR FUCKING REAL IN ONE.

But apparently trend watching is calling for one in this place. Are we that divorced from reality? Of course we are.

Oh and what we have right now is not a riot any more... it is not a revolution either. It is social protest... not unlike pulling hedges down in the 15th century... and no, I will not bother telling you where, or why. You can be curious, or not.

Rather I expect you NOT to.

[HuckleB]

78. It's not about an actual revolution.

It's about keeping oneself busy pretending, and allowing dramatic statements to get the adrenaline flowing.

[MineralMan]

94. Well, yes. Most of those I see talking about revolution would

cower in the corner should such a thing actually happen. It's more of the "Let's you and him fight" meme. I find it disgusting, to be quite frank.

I have a very ugly vision of these keyboard revolutionaries as they sit in front of their displays. I won't describe it.

[JoePhilly]

60. Sorry, not gonna happen ...

First, the far left and the far right agree on very little.

Second, the United States is too large geographically. An effective revolution needs to happen in a constrained environment. You could argue about revolutions in Russia in the past, but that argument fails. Older revolutions were the overthrow of a central government with weak governments the further out you moved. And, because those towns were far away, their connection to the central government was weaker.

Third, Americans recognize the privilage of voting, even though too many do not take it. The VAST majority of Americas would not allow an armed rebellion to take over a State House, the Congress, the Capitol, or the White House. They won't do it. They won't allow it.

Forth, let's imagine some revolution starts. The US military would end it. The MIC is not about to let armed angry liberals (talk about an oxymoron), take over the country by force. Won't happen.

Lots of other thing could be added to this list.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. I said how they start and where they come from

try re-readying the OP.

s to the power of the US Military... yep, why we have goat herders kicking our collective asses... We invented the tactic by the way.

You are also assuming a revolution will be a blue-gray affair...

Jesus people don't know how to read in this fucking place.

[JoePhilly]

85. Who said blue VS grey?? I did not. No such assupmtion made.

I simply point out that the far left, and the tea party folks are not going to join in any revolt together, which you OP does suggest.

In no way did I suggest they would hold a civil war against each other.

Perhaps you should learn to fucking read.

As for the military ... yes, ours is very weak. Keep believing that. Yawn.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. No, what I said is that revolts start on the extremes

that is where they come from.

They historically NEVER come from the center.

[JoePhilly]

100. Neither of the current extremes is going to hold a rebelion.

The far right will never do it. Why?

The far right is a pawn of the Corporatist / Neocon GOP. The Tea Party exists because the GOP created it. They took disgruntled Republicans and gave them a reason to jump up and down. Very few real Tea party candidates actually won. The GOP, with Fox news help is just shaking the right wing crazy tree to see if they can get a few nuts to act out with violence. And they've had some success. But we're still talking lone gunman success. Nothing larger. These Tea Party folks will quickly fall in line as soon as Fox News tells them they have "won". Don't believe that, think back to Beck's last Tea party rally, he told them to leave the racists signs home and, bang, no racists signs. They are sheep, not revolutionaries.

The far left will never do it either. Why?

Most of the left is anti-war, and anti-violence. Civil disobedience, sure ... rape their neighbor and kill them, then take their stuff? No way.

I won't argue that the middle never starts a rebellion. You have to be totally pissed, and beyond all other hope to start one. Ready to die today to get what you want, and ready to kill anyone who gets between you and your goal. So yes, the center isn't going to start a rebellion.

But that's not my point ... the current extremes aren't about to start one either. They won't be joining each other. They won't be starting a civil war against each other. And neither of them is going to start their own revolution any time soon.

It's not going to happen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. why is it that people are having such a hard time

with readying comprehension?

I said, this is where they come from.

By the way historically revolts never are going to happen, until well they do.

Then people, well after the event, sit down and go... gosh darn it, the signs were there, why did we miss them?

By the way we are not at a revolution point either... read the OP. None of that ugliness is happening which is what happens in them.

What we are at is the SOCIAL PROTEST STAGE and for god sakes I hope it does not grow any hotter than this.

Which again read the OP as to clues why.

[haele]

98. The movements and riots in the 60's were not blue-grey affairs either

I was born in the late '50s, spent most of the '60s and 70's as part of a university going family (mom and dad were both students at UCLA, later UC Berkley and then University of Washington)and even though I was very young, I remember things that were happening just down the street, or at Campus, or halfway across the city...

I remember Watts, the black smoke in the distance, constant noise on the street, the edginess - even living in the San Fernando Valley at the time. When we were living in Student Housing at Berkley and UW, I remember the student gatherings with the shouting and the rocks. I remember waking twice to bomb blasts, my bedroom window cracking, and finally breaking at the second blast because it faced the Administration Building and one of the Science Buildings, a little over half a mile away, were target over a particularly contentious summer. I remember from when I was 8/9 years old the faint, burning, itchy feeling of tear gas, even if my parents kept me and my brother a sufficient distance away from the various riots.

I remember growing up hearing about and watching the Civil Rights wars and the very whitewashed "War on Poverty" throughout the country - even in California, at the big ranches and major farms; "soft warfare" in our own country - riots, strikes and protests that turned violent, "Company Camp" beatings of sharecroppers and migrant workers, intimidation tactics, bombings, murders...

In uniform, I've been to Panama (one week stop during a canal passage) during the '80's "Narco Wars" period - when Noriega was "our friend" - and got shot at several times while on temporary Shore Patrol duty there. We all got shot at, pot shots from the trees, mostly. The entire area around the Balboa navy base, base housing, and Balboa downtown/business/tourist sections just reeked of the desperation,poverty, and callous indifference.

In the 90's, co-workers that were California National Guard were called up for the Rodney King riots, that had as much to do with economic disparity, chronic poverty and a perceived lack of social respect as they did with race.

I'm feeling the same edge, the anticipation, the uncertainty that I felt during those times. And I've got the urge to clean up any outstanding issues, stock up, and hunker down. I'm even more short with the kidlet, who's still pretty much living in her own social bubble and has no clue what it means to be under fire and survive.
Whether or not those are real storm clouds on the social horizon, I'm definitely aware of some pretty damn' familiar feeling social patterns, and frankly, it puts me on edge.

As Twain says, "History may not repeat, but it does rhyme." In this country, even recently, we as a population, no matter how sophisticated and comfortable we appear to be, are perfectly capable of resentful, localized, destructive madnesses.
All that needs to happen is for that madness to spread quicker or last longer than geography or local policing can contain it, and these "isolated instances" can become the norm for several years - as happened during the student and Civil Rights movements just fifty years ago. And the riots and other destructive activities my parents remember from the Union and other Depression era social and economic movements during their childhood.

Lack of opportunities, financial security and at least a perceived lack of respect for at least half a population are the major issues that accellerate into most revolutions throughout history. All it takes is a couple small sparks, and the country blows up.

Haele

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. Your memories are very correct

and that is what this has the feeling off.

[tpsbmam]

123. Wow, interesting OP, interesting thread & great post! n.t

[MilesColtrane]

79. Fire and Brimstone coming down from the sky...

Rivers and seas boiling, forty years of darkness, earthquakes, volcanoes...

The dead rising from the grave

Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria...!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. Some people like to attack with no substance

welcome to the pom pom brigade, aka the ignore list.

[MilesColtrane]

91. Thanks!

:hi:

[JustAnotherGen]

84. I'd prefer to see a financial revolution

One where no Americans or the majority of us simply do not file our taxes next April. The problem is, too many people operate out of 'Fear' so it won't happen.

[MilesColtrane]

87. That worked out well for Wesley Snipes.

[immune]

97. Have heard it suggested that we should all

just pack up all our dollar bills and checkbook account balances and mortgage papers, etc. and ship them to the federal reserve and start over with a financial system of our own creation. They wouldn't know what to do with themselves as they depend upon our participation and subservience more than we should depend upon them for anything.

[1badjedi]

92. Too bad this country has

too many cowards who wouldn't "bust a grape in a food fight." For them it's easier to bend over and keep taking it in the deadbay than to stand up for themselves even when they're being curb stomped.

Another problem is a revolution won't fit into a commercial break. :eyes:

[JoePhilly]

104. Or ... maybe ...

The country simply is not ready for a revolution.

Think about it ... I would bet that most of those who claim to be ready for the revolution in this thread, posted their comments from their kitchen table, or the couch, using a wireless laptop.

You think any of them is about to become George Washington?

I have this same discussion with Tea Party nuts all the time. They keep saying that if Obama does this, or Obama does that, THEIR revolution is likely to start. When they do, I laugh in their faces. Their calls for revolution are at best, shrill cries, and at worst, audition calls for the next Timothy McVea. No revolution is coming from the far right.

And the same is true on the left. There is anger, but because one can't easily act on that anger, what we get calls for "potential" violence.

My sense is that its more venting than anything else.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Here is a story from a real riot

not in the US though...

When that riot started it did NOT stay in the colonias... it moved to the commercial centers...

Most people in places like Beverly hills won't care as long as they can watch from the safety of their couches.

By the way that was a long and scary night, and plenty of property damage was caused... to really expensive stores at a fancy mall.

And you are right, that is where a lot of the anger will not be pent up for ever.

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. This is why in the OP I said where they come from

not whether we are at that point or not. In fact, we are not there YET.

We are at the social protest stage... which we are seeing.... though don't expect the MSM to go there.

But we are at that stage and social protest is done from keyboards... now actual fighting for the reasons stated in the OP, yes been there done that, I really hope we never get there, And people accusing me of wanting it because I happen to notice the frigging trends is intellectually dishonest.

[johnlucas]

120. Everybody talking about Revolution ain't just talking...they're planning

I myself am in line to put together an organized Revolution that builds gradually within the system.
I don't want chaotic violence because that just leads to warlords who make things worse than before.
I want to channel that anger usefully & make strategic moves to dismantle this crooked system from the inside out.

It will not be one of those protest & slogan marching things. It won't involve terrorism.
It's based on a new economic strategy that will bring independence from the system, a new media that effectively communicates the message, and new industries that produce the sustenance & protection needed for the inevitable rulers' backlash.
It aims for a nationwide strike. Not one that can be easily derailed by the rulers' enforcers. A lasting strike that brings the establishments' machine to a grinding halt.

From there, a modified version of this government will be established that begins the rule of Direct Payback for bad decisions from the government.
All in the law making/law executing bodies who make bad plans will pay PERSONALLY out of pocket for their mistakes until the debt is paid off.
They will be garnished just like the IRS does the common man. If that means the rulers live on Top Ramen so be it.
Millions, billions, trillions, whatever. They are tasked with paying every dime back for their bad plans.

This direct payback rule does away with political parties & political gamesmanship since the focus is on intelligent problem solving.
It ends corruption due to harsh enforcement of the direct payback rule. Reneging on their payback results in the death penalty which should show any others that this will not be taken lightly. And all moves will be documented & open.

With great power comes great responsibility. The rulers have people's lives in their hands. Trifling with The People's lives ends up trifling your own.
It finally solves the problem of ACCOUNTABILITY.
There is no penalty for the rulers' bad actions. It is an oversight that should have been set in this country from the beginning.

That's my long term vision. To get enough people in massive numbers, 2/3 or 3/4 of the country, all acting for the same cause & not fearing retribution from the old government. To have this sea of people psychologically shock the rulers into submission in order to establish this more accountable government.

That's my plan. I'm not just talk.
However, this can all be avoided if these people in government do right by the people in the first place.
It's their choice.
John Lucas

[bomberman]

103. How many of thses threads are you going to start?

Last I checked, the vast majority of the American people are sitting at home on their asses drinking beer and watching football and Survivor. Feel free to live in your delusion that some kind of revolution is about to take place or that the empire is falling. It's not going to happen ever.

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. I suggest if you do not want to have any of these discussions

hide thread or better yet IGNORE author.

And by the way, it is mutual, buy bye

[Scurrilous]

121. Welcome to DU.

:thumbsup:

[tpsbmam]

124. What a snarky nasty post from a newbie. Welcome to ignore...now I have two people on it! nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. US Wargaming internal dissent and collapse

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9755137&mesg_id=9755137

Apparently the people at DOD live in the same fantasy world I live in.

:sarcasm:

[johnlucas]

119. If the current trend doesn't end, Revolution will be inevitable

This is why it is important for the managers of a society to do right by its people.
In reality, man's law is a myth. If a human being has the ability to do something, he/she can do it & most likely WILL do it.
Law is not what people abide by. They abide by the gun behind that law.
They fear the Enforcer Class that will try to force obedience to those edicts.

We don't fly with our arms because we simply don't have the ability. Nature's law of gravity & the consequences of falling from high heights keep people from trying to be like the birds. Once we find a technological shortcut in the airplane, we started to fly in our own way.
But if a human being put down a law saying that people can't fly, that wouldn't stop airplane flight.
They would have to threaten shooting down planes in mid-air or shooting prospective passengers to scare people away.
And there are always those people who are not easily scared by the lawman's gun.

When rules are put in place to ensure the viability of all humankind, then people who respect life follow willingly. Morals are beyond man's law.
When these rules are immoral & against the viability of all humankind, then you have to use the gun to enforce it.

This tax break for the rich in a time of struggle for the non-rich is immoral.
If this immorality continues, less & less people will be scared of that gun.
To follow what is moral, they will defy law.

If the numbers of the defiers are too much for the Enforcer Class to handle, there is your Revolution.

Despite the evils that happen within Revolutions, they stop the greatest evil at the seat of power.
Every chief has a duty to make sure all of his tribe eats.
They hand over their power to him in order to ensure that this happens.
When he doesn't reciprocate, he is in mortal danger.

The appeals to the established system don't seem to be working.
If a peaceful organized revolution can't do the job, the violent chaotic one will.
You better hope somebody comes up with the peaceful revolution first.
John Lucas

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. We are stil at the social protest stage

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9760180&mesg_id=9760180

OUr chances of a real revolution are best case at 10% right now.

I am giving them the credence.

That said, trends continue... we ARE in a paradigm shift... and to paraphrase Kennedy... "those who make peaceful revolution imposible, (where we are right now) ensure a violent revolution."

[johnlucas]

125. And hopefully I can aid in the Peaceful Revolution

One thing I know if nothing else.
Things ain't gon' change by the ballot box.
Forty years of this hasn't gotten the Progressive Movement ANYWHERE.

They can rah rah for that Circle D all they want.
They can boogeyman that Circle R all they want.
I know where I'm gonna go.

I'm going the D.I.Y. route.
Do It Yourself.
John Lucas

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. The other thread I pointed to is a marker

of the changing zeitgeist. It takes about a generation and we are about half way there.