One of Bernie Madoff's sons (Mark) found dead

[malaise]

of apparent suicide.
Breaking on GEM$NBC.

Ah well!!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20101211/us-madoff-son/
<snip>
A law enforcement official tells The Associated Press that a son of Bernard Madoff has been found dead in New York City of an apparent suicide.

The official says Mark Madoff was found hanged in his Manhattan apartment.

A family member notified police around 7:30 a.m. Saturday.

The official spoke to the AP on the condition of anonymity because he wasn't allowed to speak publicly about the case.

Mark Madoff and his brother, Andrew, were under investigation but hadn't faced any criminal charges in the massive Ponzi scheme that led to their father's jailing.
add link, snip

[malaise]

1. Two days to the date of his father's arrest

Guess all that stolen money wasn't worth it.

[bettyellen]

2. sadly he was raised to think the money was worth more than anything else

i beleive they are going after the family and trying to recover the scam money. and i guess he;d rather die than give it back. sad fool. totally wrong priorities.

[malaise]

6. You nailed it

Fugg all of them - they had no mercy for their victims.

[bettyellen]

18. he had a two year old son right there when he did it, misplaced priorities...

even if he was duped into thinking (at some point in the past) he was deserving of those riches..... he needed to let go of it and go make and live his own life. Maybe then he would have had peace.
I'm sorry for the kid, but the sons and their uncle who are clinging to the blood money, no. That family ruined so many people's futures.

[malaise]

49. He was a greedy thoughtless bastard

imagine doing that with a two year old in the house.

[defendandprotect]

74. Would a parent do something like that ... ? hmmmm ...

[Flubadubya]

3. Could this have been a hit?

Makes one wonder. Could have been some disgruntled investor wanting to teach Bernie a lesson ?? :shrug:

[The Backlash Cometh]

8. If so, it was done by professionals.

If our CIA was behind it, you would probably find him hanging four feet off the ground and no chair in the room.

[morningglory]

11. BWHaaa! You are too funnee! nt

[defendandprotect]

73. Oh, wow ... funny --

:evilgrin:

[HipChick]

4. I'm trying to rustle up some sympathy...

he wasn't able to adjust to down-scaling?

[malaise]

5. You're on your own

I refuse to fake it :evilgrin:

[Coventina]

7. I remember hearing a report on NPR about how Bernie's sons

were totally unaware of his father's crimes. He kept it secret from them until the very last second.

When he told them the truth, they both basically "disowned" him and have refused to speak with him.

Assuming that report was correct, it is possible that maybe this unfortunate incident is due to a sense of guilt and shame, rather than despair over money.

Anyway, you won't see any grave dancing from me on this one. If Bernie did it, I'd be a little more callous, but nothing I have ever read or heard indicates that the sons were guilty of anything more than having one of the worst fathers ever.

If I'm wrong about this, please point me to where I can read the facts I haven't heard.

[inna]

10. thank you. nt

[demmiblue]

12. Thank you... I never knew that. n/t

[bettyellen]

13. what I read was, that this was legally their best tactic because they had huge cash payments from

Dad, and they only had a chance of keeping it if everyone beleived they had no idea, and they were shocked and angry about the crime. But not angry enough to give it back without being compelled to. Didn;t the mother also pretend to have no knowledge, when she was deep in it and getting huge amount of money too?
Bernie spread the money around to try to prevent it from getting back to the victims, and his son with the yacht was, in one way or another, doing the same. This is why he was being investigated.

[Coventina]

14. I'd like to read what you read. Can you point me there?

Thanks.

[bettyellen]

16. It was a few days ago, prolly the NYT when news of the investigation hit-

they were looking into huge payments to son or sons and def to Madoff;s brother too. Im sure they'll continue to try and recover the money and there;s more out there....
it's possible he had no idea also, was pissed at his Dad, etc... but to me it;s not possible he should remain filthy rich off of ill gottten gains.
I can't beleive he did this with a two year old in the apartment. How selfish and sad.

[Coventina]

19. Very few people who kill themselves do it out of "selfishness".

Since I was not inside his mind at the time, I can't make any judgments on whether he did it out of selfishness or not.

But most people who survive or have contemplated suicide will tell you that it comes from a sense of despair so profound that they cannot think of ANYTHING but ending the pain. I suppose some people might call that selfish, but that's a judgment I have extreme hesitation to make.

[bettyellen]

21. have family suicides and attempts- not getting into that w/ you.

but I can;t help but think, with the two year old there, that he was not at all for a moment thinking of the kid. if he thought he couldn;t handle the investigation, or becoming poorer, well he had messed up priorities, should have come clean and gotten help instead of trying to keep the money, that's all I meant.

[Coventina]

25. Here's a snip from today's NYT:

But charges have not been filed against any of the immediate family members, and their lawyer has said publicly that neither Mark nor his brother has ever been notified by prosecutors that they were the subjects of a criminal investigation.

A person close to Mark Madoff said he had been increasingly distraught as the anniversary of his father’s arrest approached, and he had been upset at some recent news coverage speculating that criminal charges against him and his brother were still likely.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/12/business/12madoff.html?src=busln


Today is the second anniversary of the scandal that started it all. Suicides are more common on significant anniversaries like this.

Everything I read in this article confirms what I've heard before.

Still no grave dancing from me on this one.

[bettyellen]

26. he was under the cloud of an acitve investigation, as is his uncle and brother.

huge amounts of cash - not regular salary - were given to both sons, his brother and everyones wives as well. Bernie dd a great job at stashing the money.
you can belive he was really upset at missing his Dad who he (and you) says he wants nothing to do with, and I can believe it was because the ongoing investigations- and his sad and immoral chocie to participate in the profit (and that part is indisputable) and coverup (dad knew he was going to be caught beforehand, and getting his sons to be whistleblowers was a ploy, imho). Mark complely pulled out of the Ponzi scheme eight years before it exploded, why do that when he was doing so well? Him and his brither wanted to keep 30 million on loans from Madoff. So yeah, they;d have loved to keep the blood money- so Im still thinking selfish applies, in quite a few ways.

[Coventina]

28. Please send me a link to the details of this active investigation

because I really want the details you have that I can't seem to find.

I don't believe that he was really upset at missing his dad! Where did I say that?

I said this is the second anniversary of his father's arrest, the day the world he knew and believed to be true was shattered completely. Suicides on anniversaries of traumatic events are fairly common.

I don't pretend to know all the secret motivations of all the parties involved in this case. I hope the victims of Bernie Madoff see some justice. All I am saying is that, for me personally, I don't see anything to grave dance about over this suicide.

PS: I remember when the scandal broke that MANY (not saying you) were on DU saying that Madoff's victims were greedy slime who deserved no sympathy. That Madoff's rates of returns should have been obviously rigged to anyone. That anyone with money to invest is part of the parasitic investor class, etc. etc.

on edit: clarity

[bettyellen]

31. you're right about the rate of returns being off the chart, if the sons didn't see the red flags....

they shouldn;t have been running the "clean" part of the business either, as they were supposed to be market experts. Over the last couple of years I have read a lot over how sneaky and clever Madoff was widely distributing the money, arranging things so his wife and kids left no fingerprints, but profited greatly from his scams. The hard part is figuring out what percentage if any of all that was legal. Madoff has had amazing legal counsel, employed elaborate scams, and lied at every turn, making things very difficult to recover the money. Because of this, I think they should extend the period allowed for victims to get justice. The kids they took huge loans of blood money, and didn't want to return it. They were set up with huge "foundations" that have given no money to charity and lack proper auditing, and most of their decisions indicate they knew all too well to keep their hands away from the ponzi area. But all indications are that they profited from it in a host of ways. I know this from reading at least a dozen articles over the last two years. The only information I have heard from you comes directly from the kids own lawyers. You'll find a lot more, if you choose to google it yourself. It;s not my job to keep you up to speed, sorry.

[Coventina]

33. Well, the "articles" I've read, which are equally valid to your "articles"

state that Bernie specifically shielded his sons from getting involved in the criminal part of his operation and carefully kept it secret from them. And they were the ones that finally uncovered it!

I can believe that the sons would trust their father. He had an impeccable reputation up to the last minute. Why would they question it if the SEC wasn't questioning it?

I have no dog in this fight. I never even heard the name Madoff before the scandal broke. And I am not wealthy or part of this class of people.

I just think it's pretty poor of progressives to be so callous about someone who has committed suicide when there has never been any evidence that PROVES him guilty of anything but having the wrong last name.

Speculation and lawsuits don't count.

Yes, he benefitted from his father's crimes. And so did every clerk, secretary, janitor, etc. who ever worked for Bernie. I personally believe that ALL of them should return any money they might have. I don't know if they actually have any or not. That's for the lawyers to try and figure out.


on edit: clarity

[bettyellen]

36. the fact that he is under investigation they are trying to recover BIG money from him is

very relevant. I'm surprised you read so much and never knew the sons had gotten all those multi million dollar loans and triple that when you look at the foundations and gifts. Not at all comparable to the little people you listed who never got more than a Christmas bonus. None of them got something for nothing like the family did, shame on you for equating the two.
Madoff covered his kids asses like he tried to with his wife, and the investigation is ongoing No one who works in the investment business thinks the kids were that stupid, and it''s common knowledge that Madoff knew he was going to be busted beforehand. It;s very plausible (given Madoff;s other actions) that he had the kids blow the whistle to help give them an out. Many people in the industry believe it was just one of the hundred tricks he used to safeguard his family and perhaps most importantly, the stolen money he had given them.
At any rate,if I am being charitable about Mark- I chalk it up to guilt over keeping the ill gotten gains. I'm sure his lawyers wouldn;t advise him coming clean about it.

[Coventina]

42. Again, all speculation with no proof. n/t

[bettyellen]

45. there;s a paper trail of Madoff giving him incredible amounts of money

and 10X that is still missing, so it goes without saying that that money should go back. At least from a moral standpoint. He never earned it like the workers you mentioned. Whetehr thry can ever untangle the mess of lies and dirty scams, we have yet to see.

[Coventina]

47. Dirty money is dirty money, whether it goes to a manager or a janitor.

I happen to agree with you: any money that is still out there floating around should be tracked down and returned.

But neither you nor any court has shown proof that Mark Madoff was part of the crime. He may very well have been, I don't know. AND NEITHER DO YOU. All you have is assumptions.

[bettyellen]

51. No, all WE have is active investigations and no I don;t think the janitor should pay

that;s crazy. he got paid for doing his job, and he did it. Madoffs family got paid for looking the other way, and allowing this scm to go on. Very different scenario.
Anyway, the investigations were really heating up this summer. so we shall see soon enough.

[Coventina]

59. You keep going on about these investigations into Mark Madoff, yet are either unwilling

or unable to submit any proof of them.

So if Madoff's secretary is sitting on retirement funds or real estate purchased with income from the business s/he shouldn't be required to return them? Just want to understand where you are coming from. Right now you seem to be saying that it's OK for middle/low income people to profit unknowingly from illegal activity, but not rich people.

ONCE AGAIN, it might turn out that Mark Madoff was knowingly involved in his father's crimes. But right now that is not something that has been proven.

[bettyellen]

61. his inner circle is different from the janitor you spoke about

but luckily one of the inner circle who was prosecuted earlier this year is talking, which hs sparked more investigations. he is one of the very few known to profit who wan;t in the family. they are making headway this year with a Europe partnership he had as well. So Im just saying it does look like things were crumbling around this ki, and you'd know that if you read more. . there are like 60 lawsuits going on trying to reclaim money from just 6-7 family memeber tops, including both sons. I'm suprised more people don;t know about this. and there were many other employees who knew nothing, and just got their regular checks. I have no idea why you dragged them into this. Bernies MO was to literally keep it in the family as much as possible, all of them worked in positions where it was their job to know better trading and compliance. He may have fooled main st, but wall street knows better.
GOODBYE.

[apocalypsehow]

62. Perhaps you've simply misunderstood what is being asked of you. I'll give it a try: Proof, got some?

Proof, as in a link to a factual article substantiating your claims. Proof, as in evidence that you can direct us to on the internet, so that we may validate your statements ourselves.

How about it?

:shrug:

[bettyellen]

64. um,, do you not understand the nature of "ongoing investigations" and lawsuits or how to google?

seriously. which is it? It's been in the news for about a year now, so sorry I didn;t save all the links for you.

[apocalypsehow]

69. So, your answer is "no, I don't have any evidence to substantiate my assertions." Gotcha.

Coulda simply said so to begin with.

[Coventina]

63. inner circle, outer circle, they ALL RECEIVED PROFITS.

I think it's great that there are lawsuits. I wouldn't expect anything else. As I have repeatedly said, if there's money out there, it should go back to Bernie's victims NO MATTER WHO HOLDS IT.

But a lawsuit is not legal proof of criminal guilt. You can file a lawsuit for anything. You could file a lawsuit against DU for allowing posters to disagree with you. It doesn't mean your suit has merit or that there are actual damages that can be awarded to you.

Glad you have so much faith in Wall Street and their judgment.

I was just trying to get you to rethink being judge, jury, and executioner of a man whose guilt has not been legally established. That is all.

[bettyellen]

65. I'm not going to apologise for knowing more about this man's finances than you do.

Nor do I know why you continue to equate the profits made by stealing from people with those who did an honest days work.
Executioner? Seriously, this man made his own very sad choice. I had no role in it other than to be a specatator.
Get real, and goodbye.

[Coventina]

66. Really? Are you going to provide proof that you know more about

Mark and/or Bernie Madoff's finances than I do?

Otherwise, your claim is just laughable.

You claim "an honest days work" can be done for a criminal and getting paid with stolen money is an honest living?

I don't think I'm the one who needs to get real.

[bettyellen]

67. Nope, I'll just encourage you to read for yourself FFS, as you seem to lack an understanding of the

basic structure of Madoff's firm. Part of the business was legal, it actually did employ regular joes with mundane jobs along with another group that worked on the scams. Madoff has lied repeatedly that he was the only one who did it or had knowledge of it, which is actually not just unlikely but completely impossible. Others have been prosecuted now and they are getting a lot further with investigations this year. If I know this, I bet poor Mark did too.

What is making it difficult is that a part of the money was indeed made legally, and Madoff has done an exceptional job covering his tracks and they are just beginning to unwind some of the crazy paper trails. The elaborate tactics he employed to stash the money are unprecedented in the business world, and fascinating to some because he directed all his energy not to hiding the bigger scam itself (he didn't have to mostly because all his inner circle ignored the evidence for so long) but to hiding the money itself and the trail back to the scam. Madoff tried most of all to be the only one that was caught, and to safeguard the money- make it seem untouchable- in his families hands should he be caught. It is something a few people I know in the industry find fascinating, so I have followed it quite a bit. Since last spring or summer they have been making big inroads, and it will be interesting to see if they can recover money to compensate the victims in time.

All of this has been reported on in the last year, you can educate yourself if you care to. I'm not your assistant, I'm not going to look for the dozen or so things I have read in the last six months for you, nor do I feel any obligation to. You are sitting there with a search engine right in front of you, are you not? I just wanted to clarify that there were regular honest joe employees making legal money that did have nothing made no profit from the scam. His own family made some profit legally too, that's what makes sorting it out and recovering the money so difficult.

[Coventina]

77. I have not come across any PROOF that MARK is under investigation

only speculation. I have not found any with my search engine. And even if he were that is not PROOF of guilt, either.

He might have been involved in the criminal activity. I have never disputed that. All I am saying and have ever stated in this thread is that at this point IT HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN.

You go on at length about what a genius Bernie was at manipulating the money. Maybe it's possible that he managed to keep his boys only involved in the legit business and not in the criminal one. Hey, my speculation is as good as yours.

Question: if it does turn out that "dirty" money was used to pay the "regular Joes", is it still ok for them to keep it? (Assuming they have any of it or any assets bought with it?)

on edit: spelling

[bettyellen]

68. dupe.

[apocalypsehow]

72. Oops - guess not.

:eyes:

Still waiting on that link to evidence to back up your assertions, BTW. :hi:

[apocalypsehow]

71. "Get real, and goodbye." - Really?

:shrug:

[apocalypsehow]

70. "GOODBYE." - Really?

:shrug:

[tallahasseedem]

48. An apostrophe and semicolon are NOT

interchangeable.

You're welcome.

[bettyellen]

52. ha ha

[BeyondGeography]

41. Your restraint is welcome...Depression

Leading to suicide, is certainly a possibility. All too common, and certainly the last thing anyone should celebrate.

[defendandprotect]

75. misplaced -

[Dorian Gray]

57. I think people consider it selfish

because there is absolutely no thought to how others will react to their death. The depression is so all-consuming, there is no thought of others in their actions. I do think that there are psychological issues that would make "selfishness" a non-issue, but most people don't understand that. They feel angry and rejected and pissed off at the person who killed themselves and left their lives.

[Coventina]

60. What you say is very true. I just wish people who call it "selfish"

would try to understand how depression affects the brain and thinking of the people who suffer from it.

For those that have lost family members that way, it might actually help them heal.

[defendandprotect]

76. It strikes me the same way as people yelling "Don't Jump!" at people in burning buildings ....

Obviously, people do these things because they are in immense pain --

[bluestate10]

53. Madoff's sons were the people that turned him in to the FEDs. nt

[bettyellen]

54. yeah, it was a brilliant ploy alright.Bernie knew it was coming, what better way to do it? nt.

[inna]

9. sad. disgusted at the apparent glee. "sins of the fathers"... nm.

[bettyellen]

15. and mothers, and he was under investigation. it seems it could have been a family thing.

no glee, just pragmatism. if he couldn;t withstand investigetion, I don;t know what to say about it. I am very very sorry for all the families who were ruined financially by his parents. No one really knows right now if this kid was too. He was however profitting from it, and hoping to continue to do so.

[inna]

17. "He was however profitting from it, and hoping to continue to do so."

uh, Hello!! Dude KILLED himself, for god's sakes.


"He was however profitting from it, and hoping to continue to do so."

:crazy:


nm, fuck this. i think i'm going to go read a Barack Obama thread instead.

[bettyellen]

20. I think he was pretty upset they were coming after the (not his) ill gotten money...

Madoff deispersed the money to a lot of family members, and all of them were doing their best to keep it. He was just put under investigation a few days ago. Forgive me for assuming there;s a connection, and that the money may go back to it's rightful owners. The whole family was dispersed ill gotten money, and the most they have done to rectify the situation is to express anger at Dad, possibly at their lawyers; advisement.

[KansasVoter]

23. Wow, a bunch of idiots on here this morning. Son had committed no crime!

[bettyellen]

24. no one said that, but the investigations and attempts to recover money from Mark are real and very

possible causes of the suicide, He was in the news just two days ago over this. Sorry but it;s very possible that there's a connection.

[KansasVoter]

30. worth him dying?

[bettyellen]

32. the son made that call, not us. Nice try.

[KansasVoter]

40. And you celebrate it. Hope you feel the same if someone you know kills them self.

[bettyellen]

46. my brother killed himself and I never celebrated this death, but thanks for the sick sentiment

maybe you ought to reread my posts and apologize, your post is absolutely appalling as well as terribly misguided. all I said was I believe the sons were neck deep in this shit. everyone i know in the finance business in NYC thinks so too.
What a shitty shitty thing to post. Shame on you. I'm not even going to alert. Everyone should see this.

[amborin]

39. are you sure?

it seems highly unlikely the sons were not complicit; they were aware of the huge, unaccounted for sums of money; granted, they turned Madoff in, but perhaps to save themselves?

[Johonny]

43. same is Dick Cheney, no prosecution thus no crime.

[bluestate10]

55. The crowd is just taking some time out from worshipping Julian Assange. nt.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NaturalHigh]

27. It's sad to see so many people who are apparently giddy about this man killing himself.

Bernie Madoff is a scumbag, but I take no pleasure in his son's suicide. It's sad to see the bloodlust here.

[bettyellen]

29. show me the bloodlust please, I missed it. discussing why it happened

or not feeling especially bad about it and speculating as to the way is not bloodlust. We only know if this family because they all profitted greatly by stealing from others, Bernie gave them all many millions, so it;s kind of impossible to ignore.

[NaturalHigh]

35. And I quote...

"Fugg all of them - they had no mercy for their victims."

[bettyellen]

37. i would say that means a person cares not. it;s not actually a call to string him up, is it?

if that;s all you got, Im not ashamed of anythng that was said.

[NaturalHigh]

50. I didn't expect you would be.

[bettyellen]

56. Kansas Voter should be ashamed most of all. Thatls some sick shit right there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. A suicide is always tragic

for the SURVIVORS, I dont care how much money the family has. It is always tragic.

And here is the deal, they will have issues burying him. I mean between the Sabbath and that suicide is seen as close to a mortal sin as one exists in Judaism... (Where do you think Christianity got it?) And it should not, but hey... what can I say Bronze Age religions are always fun.

As much damage as Bernie did to other people... I hope he is able to find some peace on this, as well as the rest of the family. The crimes they committed against others... why Bernie is in jail after all.

[amborin]

38. more importantly, the have IDed one of Bernie's co-conspirators, an Austrian banker...

[Nye Bevan]

44. He was facing ruination and possible substantial jail time.

No glee from me, but it is hard to believe that he didn't have *some* idea about what was going on. And even if this could not be proved, most of his assets would still have been confiscated. All the more punishment for Bernie, knowing that he is substantially responsible for his son's death.

[mstinamotorcity]

58. From what I have seen and what I have been told

there is no greater pain than losing a child. There are going to be speculations as to why Mark took his own life. But unless he left a note, no one will know. I believe life as the infamous Bernie Madoff's son may have been a bit more than he could take. Not to mention everyone watching you out the corner of their eyes. Feds,Media,friends,former investors of his father. The list could be quite long.

His father messed over so many people it may not be suicide. His father destroyed a lot of lives and took some people's life savings. If they wanted to get him back, hurting a family member would do it. When Mr.Bernie Madoff was stealing the people's money he thought of it in a dollar and sense type of mode. He thought about all the money. His rolex,high rise apartment,trips,champagne and all the amenities that go along with that lifestyle. No he never calculated his demise or the death of one of his children even if it was by his own child's hand (probably is worse for him). But most people who are wealthy and don't calculate the consequences, only see minor jail time.

That is why those who sit in those corporate positions of power who play with peoples lives and think only about the greed aspect....I see nothing good happening for them.