We're not even close to a revolution in this country.

[cali]

and anyone who thinks we are isn't paying attention to history, sociology or psychology. Now, I'm not saying it can't happen. It can. Of course it can, but you'll see a lot more unraveling of the social fabric before we get anywhere near to either a revolution or a civil war.

They'll pass the stinkin' tax cut "compromise" and there won't be riots in the streets. People will continue their Christmas shopping and watching their TV programs.

[leftstreet]

1. We don't need a Revolution. We need a Movement

Big difference

[cali]

2. agreed. alas, we're not close to that either.

[leftstreet]

7. I disagree. The Political Class has failed in keeping us blind to our common interests

Political participation is dwindling - half the eligible voters don't vote - and the rigid line between right and (faux) left is continually exposed as bullshit.

People are ready for a movement

[Cal33]

38. "...half the eligible voters don't vote..."

With rare exceptions, we have been this way since way back when. But I
sure do hope that people are ready for a movement.

[madmax]

3. Just as it was in 2000 when the USSC handed

the Presidency to the Dim Son. :mad: Still not over and will never get over it. :mad:

[dkf]

6. Yeah I was pissed but I never even thought of picking up a crowbar or anything.

We like our violence on TV but not in real life. We are even shocked at the idea of spanking kids nowadays.

[dkf]

4. They won't even get up to vote the Repubs out over this.

They didn't do it in November nor will they do it now.

[Cal33]

39. Half the people don't even know the Neocons are doing this.

They've been brain-washed by the 90% Republican-owned news media.
What else can anyone expect?

[dkf]

47. You didn't see a single ad this cycle on tax cuts for the rich?

[madmax]

48. Operation Dumbed and Numbed

Mission Accomplished.

[Edweird]

5. You're right. But the PTB are still girding for *just in case*.

[polmaven]

8. OK...ya got me!

PTB??? Am I missing something obvious? :shrug:

[lob1]

9. Powers that be?

[Edweird]

17. Powers that be.

[polmaven]

33. Ah!

Thanks...sometimes us old(er) folk don't quite catch on as easily as the "kids" do! ;~D

[bemildred]

10. "Past performance is no guarantee of future results."

I sort of agree, but things are starting to remind me of the 60s.

But the political playing field now is different, much different, and that affects both your argument and comparison with the 60s..

In any case, it's perfectly clear that there will be change of one sort or another, more of it and faster, at least I see no reason to expect some new Golden Age of political tranquility.

[Goldstein1984]

11. I hope you're wrong, Cali.

I think a "revolution" is just a matter of crossing what I call a threshold of suffering. What worries me is that we're losing the opportunity for non-violent revolt. Things will continue to deteriorate, and we'll reach some point where chaos--hopefully constructive chaos--will happen.

I often joke that there will be no revolution as long as the cheap beer flows and cable TV remains affordable, but I hope that isn't true.

The safety and wellbeing of my family depends on Americans still possessing the capacity for nonviolent revolt--a mass "movement."

My dream scenario: The people elect a third-party candidate in 2012; the Electoral College does not follow the counsel of the people; the people respond with a massive general strike and boycott of all commerce, bring the nation to it's knees in the one way the ruling class truly respects--economically.

[cali]

15. I think that's quite possible.

we do have a limited window of opportunity. If we continue down this road, the social fabric could fray to that point- but only if the suffering is of great magnitude.

[JoePhilly]

45. Add to your joke, wireless internet ...

There will be no revolution when people can post to websites via a wireless laptop, while sitting in their kitchen, on their couch, or at a coffee shop.

Its not going to happen.

[Goldstein1984]

51. People are using "wiped" laptops

They can use them completely anonymously anywhere there's free wifi. There are a few precautions they have to follow, like email, site registration and sock puppets using an alias, and never using that alias for any other purpose.

An IT friends who "consults" on such matters says the demand for anonymous computers is growing, and he's making a lot of money providing them.

Dissent is in the air. Whether it will go anywhere is the open question.

The Internet can be a catharsis that purges people of the drive for action, but it can also be a town square where people are incited into action.

From Alaska, it doesn't make sense for me to spend thousands of dollars to run to D.C. to join in protest marches, but with a few clicks I can provide financial support for legal aid for those who do; I can donate money to Wikileaks and the Bradley Manning defense fund.

The Internet gives a voice to people who are nothing but talk, but it also gives a voice to people looking for ways to act.

[JoePhilly]

52. Please ...

You are not actually suggesting that the poor and down trodden will use "wiped laptops" so they can "donate money" that they do not have. Are you?

Dissent is not in the air. At least no more than at any time in the last 50 years.

And the internet is not the town square ... why? ... because to stand in the town square and argue your point, you had to be PUBLIC. The people were local and they knew you and your family. The internet requires no such thing.

I do agree that the internet can act as a catharsis for people. Usually, catharsis is a personal experience of emotion that helps one move beyond some emotional state that blocks them from moving forward.

My simple point was that we are nowhere near rebellion.

[Goldstein1984]

58. No, I'm suggesting that people are becoming concerned about

the level of intrusion into their private lives, and some are taking the threat seriously enough that they hide some of their political activities.

I do believe there's dissent in the air. I think there's a growing populism, and I think there's potential for populists on the left and the right to realize that, political dogma aside, they have more in common than they thought.

And your thinking about what a town square is is antiquated--pre-1990s. Bernie Sanders stood in one place and spoke yesterday for 8.5 hours and, via the internet, everyplace where he could be watched via C-SPAN (I watched via Internet) became part of a global town square.

I'm hearing my "liberal" friends make noise more and more like Tea Party members--ready to toss out an unresponsive Democratic party along with it's apologists.

Dismiss what you like. It changes nothing.

Only time will tell.

[JoePhilly]

60. I do agree that time will tell ...

But I disagree that populists on the left and the right might join. No way.

The "populists" on the right also demand prayer in school, laws against abortion, no rights for gays, no estate tax, war against Iran (and all Muslims).

As for the town square ... Bernie is an ELECTED OFFICIAL, he is already PUBLIC. You and I are NOT. Yes, Bernie can be heard more broadly, but so can Michelle Malkin, and Glen Beck. My point is about the PUBLIC SQUARE ... in which YOU AND I stand and make our case, not becasue we are ELECTED to do it, nor because we are PAID to do it. There is no PUBLIC TOWN SQUARE now.

As for liberals following the Tea Party movement ... too F**king late. Once Obama won in 2008, we left the field. We decided that electing Obama was all we needed to do. And he'd handle it from there. The House and Senate caved. And we did nothing.

But now we are upset.

[Goldstein1984]

62. Blogs have replaced the town square

Lots of unelected people having their say and influencing people on a national level.

Federalism has made local politics national. You may be able to force prayer or creationism into the school curriculum standing on a soap box in the local town square, but ultimately it will be a federal court that decides whether it stays. You may pass gun control ordinances at a local level, but it will be a federal court that decides whether it stands.

The Internet is the national "town square"--metaphorically speaking, of course.

If the populists can't join together to fight their common enemy, then nothing will change.

[BlueJac]

12. You are right on...........

sorry to say

[nashville_brook]

13. it's collapse, and not revolution that should be a concern.

[leftstreet]

16. Collapse should frighten the Ruling Class, not the Working Class

If we wake up tomorrow and several large ruling class money laundering megacorps are gone, kaput, here's what will happen: The working classes will still know how to build cars, fix broken bones, clean toilets, teach children, cook pot roasts, plumb sinks, write books and pour concrete walkways.

The world would not end just because a handful of rich fucks weren't extracting profit from our labors.

[nashville_brook]

18. I agree in terms of day to day life, but look at what happened to the Soviet Union

The county is run by gangsters now.


Irony intended.

[leftstreet]

20. hehe

"Irony intended"

No kidding!

:-)

[dkf]

50. Retirement savings will be gone as private pensions collapse.

Everyone will have to live on social security except public workers. They will be the elite.

[JackRiddler]

31. Yes, collapse is likelier first.

[nashville_brook]

43. and that presents its own set of problems...so, it makes sense to employ

our present state of outrage toward addressing the problems associated with collapse...if not directing energy to avoiding collapse.

knowing that corporations are sitting on more cash right now than in any time in recent history, should itself argue against tax breaks for the rich on the premise of job creation. the problem is NOT that there isn't cash out there. there's plenty of cash in the hands of the rich...as a matter of fact they have all of it and it hasn't produced anything useful. as a matter of fact, it's killing us. and it's also going to kill them, if you're to be completely honest. capitalism really needs to be saved from itself at this point.

[dawg]

14. We are fat and docile. We will not revolt.

That being said, we are pretty *revolting*.

[1badjedi]

30. Yeah well

as more people become skinny and starving revolt is going to start looking like the only option.

[asdjrocky]

19. I don't know...

It's a big country, I think it may depend more on what part of the country you're in.

[cali]

21. that it's a big country is part of the reason why we're not close

to a revolution or civil war.

[OHdem10]

22. To have a Revolution, we have to let the GOP have more

power and finish the damage they started. Until
they get full credit for the damage, everyone including
the Media will follow them blindly. We keep interrupting
just enough to get the blame. We interrupt but do not
push back enough to change---just enough to get the blame.

This makes the Case for a real Democratic Movement.

[MilesColtrane]

54. "We had to destroy the village in order to save it."

What is this, the U.S, or Ben Tre?

Ben Tre

That strategy makes as much sense as it did during the war, and when Nader used it to help Bush get elected.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

23. People have LOTS less to shop with, in many cases. I predict poor retail revenues this year...

TV and other media might not report the bad returns of Christmas shopping to a large degree; but media is already suffering with FAR less advertising than previous years. Small business isn't advertising as much, neither are some of the large companies.

[Kaleva]

24. It's too cold out.

[Jakes Progress]

25. Storm the halls of congress. Man the bara.....oooh. shiny.

[cali]

37. oh dear

keyboard spitting moment.

:rofl:

[JoePhilly]

46. SQUIRREL !!!

[Ichingcarpenter]

26. Like the USA will start something now on the truth.

the people are at the gates wonder why the Michaeal Vicks is not a Roman citizen

[Forkboy]

27. America reminds me of a line from an old Chumbawamba song...

"Is a full belly all it takes to keep us pacified?"

The answer is yes.

[The Midway Rebel]

28. If there is a revolution...

it won't televised.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qoalKUt0mo&feature=related

[struggle4progress]

32. "You will not be able to stay home, brother. You will not be able to plug in, turn on and cop out."

http://www.gilscottheron.com/lyrevol.html

[JackRiddler]

29. Eastern Europe was not close to a revolution in 1985.

You may argue away that world events revealed a shift quasi overnight. We live in even more accelerated times today. The United States also does not exist in a vacuum. Its empire might yet go on for long, yet the tendencies to collapse are there, and such collapses tend to be rapid. An end to the empire would have very large and unknowable domestic repercussions.

Or the US in 1965. Yet by 1968 the situation was considered insurrectionary. (Amazing what the hardboiled monstrous pursuit of a meaningless war on the other side of the globe will do. And no, it didn't happen. They killed another Kennedy and we got Nixon.) Couple the empire in crisis with today's radical class war at home impoverishing more millions by the month, and the increasingly widespread understanding that the civilization itself cannot possibly remain the same. All ground is shifting.

That's not to say what happens will be good. At the moment a more open transition to totalitarian rule with theocratic features appears more likely. This is to say that wise-sounding bromides are often foolish.

[Ichingcarpenter]

35. The USA citizens

Are sitting in a car crash
not knowing the couple in the back are dead'
but say they are all right.

As a lonely observer from a distance
sees the crash.


Maybe one day I will be called a witness.

But the ones in front of the car.

HAVE A DEDUCTIBLE on health.

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. Closer than the USA is today

Solidarity had caused a major upheaval in Poland, and the Polish government was looking more and more desperate for how to combat it. And it was notable that the Soviet Union hadn't sent in the tanks the way it had in Czechoslovakia in 68 or Hungary in 56.

[JackRiddler]

53. There was much about it not comparable to the US today, but not my point.

Categorical statements don't apply to our accelerated times, and by the time we've applied our inadequate labels ("liberal," "conservative," "progressive," "centrist," "revolutionary," etc.) to each presumed political demographic, the meanings and configuration are already changing again.

[Warren DeMontague]

34. There are a lot of "revolutionaries" on both sides living in a fog of delusion and cheetoh dust.

Differentiated only by whether they have Karl Marx or Ayn Rand posters up on the walls of their parents' basement rec room.

[apocalypsehow]

36. Are you saying I shouldn't break out my Che Guevara beret just yet?

:shrug:

'Tis a pity: I look sooooo stylish in it.... ;-)


Kick, Rec. :thumbsup:

[madmax]

49. I saw you in that beret

You look like Monica :evilgrin: :rofl: :bounce: :P

[apocalypsehow]

57. LOL! "I wore this beret to the revolution and all I got with was this lousy cigar."

:evilgrin:

:rofl: :toast:

[Bluerthanblue]

40. if we couldn't stop the Iraq war, I would hope that tax-cuts for

the well off and wealthy isn't the tipping point for changing the way we operate.

I really thought that some of the crap that happened during the Bush years could cause a major revolt. Beginning with the supreme court decision that basically installed Bush, then the Patriot Act, Guantanamo etc.

The tea-party got republicans/independents off their butts, and out to vote- because of money and bigotry. It would be a sad commentary if the idea of allowing the tax cuts to be extended mobilizes people more than the waging of an illegal, immoral war was able to.

(fwiw, I marched, vigiled, phoned,& sent letters, against military action in Afghanistan, and war with Iraq)

[wundermaus]

41. No need for a revolution.

We, the People lost.
The corporations won.
Now, get back to work.
Oh, not employed?
Too bad.
Have a nice day.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

44. you are right. nt

[cwydro]

55. Completely agree. nt

[TheKentuckian]

56. No, not yet but the wind is dicey and can change pretty quick.

[deutsey]

59. I see us about a decade away from a revoultion

If the current trend continues, it will have reached such a fever pitch that not even "reality" TV will compensate for the real reality.

[MrMickeysMom]

61. Hell, is anybody even CALLING Republican Senators, advised by Bernie Sanders?

I won't hold my breath, cause no one I know in every day life, including my siblings can be bothered enough to do this.

How bad does it get till we're "there?

[JackRiddler]

63. Actually, YOU are "not even close to a revolution." Which is fine for you.

One doesn't ever get to a revolution by pronouncing it a distant prospect. Okay, it's far away, or unlikely. But to announce that as though it were a conclusive wisdom is really just a way for you to say you do not want to see or work for a revolution. Which is no surprise, in your case.

One gets to a revolution by figuring out how to make it more likely, and then doing that. Nothing is inevitable, except that everything ends, including the dominion of US empire and the American form of capitalism. A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.

[BOG PERSON]

64. you don't need to pay attention to history, sociology or psychology?

you just need to know people outside of the computer who aren't cranks? social collapse is absolutely not anywhere on the horizon, much less revolution.

[Mike 03]

65. This was originally posted to another thread, but it applies to your thread

We protest a little bit when our nation is doing something abominable to another nation without probable cause, such as our outrageous invasion of Iraq.

We get very angry when we feel that our individual rights or income have been compromised, but we don't organize well; thus, our anger comes out in the form of ignored emails to our representatives.

We don't draw much inspiration from the more demonstrative protests in Europe, which we would probably do well to emulate.

Our rage seems to take the form of perverse acts of violence, like suicide, killing our children or parents, abducting strangers, blowing away people we work with, flying planes into office buildings, etc...

At this moment in history, I feel that we are too isolated to organize, and I think this is the result of trends in society that turn us against each other by training us to believe there are such limited resources that we are better off alone than in forming communities.

But I would love your opinion on my theory, since it is a bit odd.