The right-wing loonies did not start a third-party movement ...

[dawg]

Our electoral system is conducive to only two political parties, so they infiltrated and subverted one of those parties. And it is working for them. Big time.

I guess I'm just saying, we should do the same.

[Edweird]

1. So, you're saying the Left could infiltrate and subvert the Dem party?

[dawg]

3. I think that is our best option.

And it won't be easy. We are a minority within the Democratic party. But the winguts used to be a minority in the Repub party as well.

[Edweird]

8. The problem is that all the 'normal' republicans came here and set up shop.

Hence the present circumstances. They are harder to get rid of than bed bugs.

[LoZoccolo]

4. Gain the electoral consensus and you won't have to "infiltrate" and "subvert". n/t

[Edweird]

6. You mean like 66% + support for single payer? That kind of 'electoral consensus'?

[LoZoccolo]

9. I've never seen the poll that that's from.

In any case, if there's a disconnect between what people think they support and what they actually do to support it, that has to be fixed. If the people rattling at the Democratic Party actually took responsibility for participating in democracy they would get things done.

[Edweird]

12. Blah blah blah. WHat we voted for, what we were sold, is not what we got.

We had solid majorities in both houses AND the white house. Trying to pin this on 'voters that didn't do enough' is contemptible bullshit.

[leftstreet]

13. [phone]

[Moondog]

33. Yeah, me too. n/t

[LoZoccolo]

14. So do you have the 66% single-payer poll?

As I keep saying: take responsibility for making it happen. If it's important enough for you to go through the effort of starting a third-party, it should be important enough to keep track of your sources and make a compelling case. It would be easier, for one thing.

Also: I would submit the constant ad hominems, faction-building, and accusations of sabotage are just part of the pattern of abdication of responsibility that you see so often in "netroots" politics. People would rather attack the other people rather than have a solid case that would make their enemies irrelevant.

[Edweird]

18. More 'blame the victim' spew. Is that all you have?

[LoZoccolo]

19. If you don't like it, start your third party and see where it goes.

"Blame" isn't really something that applies. I'm not doling out punishments.

Besides, there's no evidence that 66% actually support single-payer anyways. My guess is that it was something else and it "became" single-payer through a game of telephone, but you're free to prove me wrong and embarass me.

[Edweird]

26. You don't need me to embarrass you. You are doing quite well on your own.

62% here: http://www.commondreams.org/news2003/1020-08.htm

72% "The national telephone survey, which was conducted from June 12 to 16, found that 72 percent of those questioned supported a government-administered insurance plan — something like Medicare for those under 65"
here: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/health/policy/21poll.html

[Forkboy]

30. LOL

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pgodbold]

15. Bravo! nt

[LoZoccolo]

17. And I'll say another thing: the Tea Party and other Republicans are willing to do what I advocate.

They're even willing to embarass themselves by forwarding right-wing emails before checking Snopes. Are you willing to get the support for what you want? I'll tell you this: if you don't, then you first have to deal with the fact that when it's up for a vote, that it will be easy enough to steamroll with a disingenuous talking point, and even if you can twist enough arms to get the leadership to do it, it will be easy enough to repeal.

[Edweird]

21. I prefer to do it the old fashioned way:

elect representatives (!) that support my position and un-elect those that do not.

[LoZoccolo]

23. You make my argument for me.

You can't elect them unless you get a plurality of the electorate to cooperate with you.

[Edweird]

28. If you think I am 'making your argument for you' that will be because

you are only seeing what you want to see.

[Goldstein1984]

22. +++1000000000000000+++

[dawg]

7. This is war ...

it isn't our duty to follow the electorate, it is our duty to *lead* it.

[LoZoccolo]

10. In a way you make my argument for me, but I think you have a different conception of who "we" are.

[dawg]

25. By "we" I mean those of us who want to move the country leftward ...

There isn't a groundswell among the voters for that right now, although I *believe* it to be in their best interests.

If you don't want to move the country leftward, then we disagree.

If you believe there is a groundswell of liberal voters and we just need to follow their lead - what universe are you living in?

It would be nice if the average voter made rational decisions and knew what was best for them. Real life is that they don't. If they do know what's best for themselves, then we're all wrong and the Republicans are right. Do you believe that?

No. We are right, but we are a minority. So what to do? Hope for the voters to come around? Hell no!

Like the abolitionists, suffragettes, and the heroes of the civil rights movements - we fight. Use everything we can. Rather than accept the "will of the people" we *change* that will.

And the best vehicle for doing that is to take over one of the two major parties. And to me, the Democratic party looks like the easiest one for us to take over. But that's just me.

[Edweird]

29. Actually, 'we' are not the minority. The label 'liberal' is a pejorative.

Remove the label and the policies get overwhelming support. Even teabaggers love their social security.

[CJCRANE]

2. In fact the neocons coopted the Tea Party idea

and created a fake movement for disgruntled Republicans.

They have little in common with the original Tea Party type people (Ron Paul's followers).

[leftstreet]

5. +1

[NNN0LHI]

11. Former Rethug House Majority Leader Dick Armey infiltrated and subverted his own party?

I think you may need a history lesson?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Armey

Dick Armey

Richard Keith "Dick" Armey (pronounced /ˈɑrmi/; born July 7, 1940) is a former U.S. Representative from Texas's 26th congressional district (1985–2003) and House Majority Leader (1995–2003). He was one of the engineers of the "Republican Revolution" of the 1990s, in which Republicans were elected to majorities of both houses of Congress for the first time in four decades. Armey was one of the chief authors of the Contract with America. Armey is also an author and former economics professor. After his congressional career he worked as a consultant, advisor and lobbyist.

FreedomWorks

In 2003, Armey became co-chairman of Citizens for a Sound Economy, which in 2004 merged with Empower America to become FreedomWorks. "FreedomWorks" is a common Armey saying and the organization is dedicated to advancing a "Freedom Agenda" of "lower taxes, less government, and more freedom." FreedomWorks states that it has 700,000 members nationwide and full time staff in 10 states. In his role as Chairman, Armey continues to be a national political figure and grassroots leader. He travels widely, meeting with activists and legislators. In 2005, for example, he testified before the President's Advisory Panel on Tax Reform and debated Governor of Colorado Bill Owens on a tax increase ballot measure.

August 2009 town hall meetings health care controversy

In 2009, FreedomWorks launched a campaign against health care reform proposals, accusing the Obama administration of attempting to "socialize medicine". A strategy manual disseminated by a FreedomWorks volunteer explained "best practices" including "Inflate your numbers", describing how one group succeeded in dominating a group of 150 voters in which only 30 opposed healthcare reform.

Referencing a piece entitled "On Private Conference Call, Tea Party Organizers Say No Reform At All is Goal" on Greg Sargent's liberal blog The Plum Line, Rachel Maddow argued in her opinion piece "TRMS Investigates FreedomWorks" that the right's strategy was to disrupt and shut down the August 2009 town hall congressional meetings on health care reform by “scaring real Americans with increasingly paranoid and kooky lies about health care and then providing a script for how to express that fear.” At many of the town halls Democratic "members of Congress have been shouted down, hanged in effigy and taunted by crowds" in an apparent organized effort to rattle the congresspeople presiding over the meetings rather than to seek a compromise solution to health care reform.

[dawg]

24. The history lesson is this ...

Dick Armey, and thousands like him, infiltrated and subverted the Republican party, turning it from the party of Eisenhower, Ford, and even Nixon, into the right-wing beast that it is today. The process began in the 60's with Barry Goldwater and his true-believers. Reagan was the first fruit of their effort. Now the process is so complete, people like you think the Republican party is as it has always been.

There really is a vast right-wing conspiracy, you know.

[L0oniX]

16. I resemble that remark.

[Individualist]

20. We need to take our party back from DLC.

[dawg]

27. That's what I'm saying.

And I think it would be helpful to study how the right-wingers took over their party. Some of their tactics could be useful.

[JoePhilly]

31. The right wing loons did not infiltrate anything ...

They are, and have always been, the GOP's base.