Undocumented Immigrants Prepare to Leave Arizona

[The Northerner]

PHOENIX – Faced with the unlikelihood that the federal government will pass an immigration-reform law any time soon, coupled with the toughening of Arizona’s state laws against illegal immigration, many undocumented aliens here are getting ready to go back to their own countries.

“The situation is getting more and more difficult, not only because it’s very hard to find work, but because you can no longer live in peace – you’re always afraid of being arrested by the cops,” Juan Martinez Ramos, an undocumented immigrant from the western Mexican state of Michoacan, told Efe.

The Martinez family is selling all the furniture in their two-room apartment in Phoenix in hopes of raising a little more cash.

“The American dream is over for us,” the father of three children, all born in the U.S., said.

The family hopes to leave the state by Dec. 21, in time to get back to Mexico for the Christmas celebrations.

Read more: http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=381245&CategoryId=12395

[skepticscott]

1. So where did the persistent notion come from

that people who are in this country in violation of our laws are entitled to work and to do whatever they please without fear of being arrested and deported?

[GSLevel9]

2. I like butter but no salt...

:popcorn:

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GSLevel9]

7. to be honest...

Arizona never expected their bill to become law. But it DOES send a GTFO signal to the UI's.

[EFerrari]

4. Because they were violating administrative law, not criminal law.

That's what is changing in Arizona. It will now be a crime to be undocumented.

[CanonRay]

70. If you're just here illegally, it's administrative, but

if you're here illegally, and working, it's criminal. Sorry, that's just the truth.

[FrancisTreptoe]

45. +1

[dkf]

5. Its all about the jobs.

The weird part is the filing of taxes. Why would they wait for that?

[pinboy3niner]

8. Undocumented workers already are paying taxes

Social Security, Medicare and Income Taxes. But you already know that.

[dkf]

10. I didnt think they would file taxes under a fraudulent ID

I thought that was for the employers benefit to give the impression everything was ok.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. Yes they file taxes

Many of their employers tell them they have to file. Contrary to popular belief, the undocumented do try to abide by our laws and keep a relatively low profile. They don't want to attract attention and get deported.

[skepticscott]

29. Well, if they enter the country illegally

to begin with, how is that "trying to abide by our laws"?

Don't you think that the first requirement for a good potential citizen (or a well-behaved visitor) should be that they respect the laws of the country they're visiting or living in? And shouldn't that apply even to the laws that they don't understand, think are silly, think shouldn't apply to them, or are inconvenient to obey?

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. It isn't a criminal offense to cross the border without papers

It's a civil offense. Just like running a stop sign. Or speeding. So that whole throw the first stone thing comes to mind and I am not free of sin.

Arizona has made it a criminal offense.

I also know that if my family was hungry I would do anything, including crossing a border, to find work to feed them. And my own ancestors came here illegally.

So I don't criticize these people.

[skepticscott]

32. And if you were caught speeding

Would you argue that your needs entitled you to violate that law with impunity, or would you accept responsibility for your actions and submit to the remedy that the law provides for? Which would you say is the better mark of good citizenship?

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. Of course I would

But I think that's a bad analogy. This isn't about being a good citizen, it's about taking care of your family.

[skepticscott]

39. What you're arguing is

that their need to take care of their family overrides their obligation to obey the laws of other countries. Why should the citizens of this country be obliged to tolerate such visitors? What about the effect on other people (citizens and legal immigrants) who are trying just as hard to take care of their families, but who lose out on jobs because they are more expensive to employ than people who are here illegally? Do the citizens of this country not have the right to protect the interests of those people, and to place their interests above those of people who are here illegally?

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. Once again. It's not a criminal offense.

And yes, my obligation to take care of my family would override everything.

Our trade policies resulted in the economic situation being faced by our neighbors south of the border. Yes we should be angry but not at them. The answer is fair trade, not persecuting the poor.

[skepticscott]

46. Why do you keep harping on the fact

that this is not a criminal offense? When did I ever argue that it was or should be?

And what about the trade policies that have shifted countless jobs to other countries and left American workers unemployed and homeless, without even a tarp over their heads in winter? Where is your anger about those? You seem to lack even the semblance of a substantive policy response to my questions.

And since when is not letting every poor person in the world into our country without question or limit "persecution"?

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. I credited the trade policies.

I also never attempted to argue policy with you. I'm merely relating the reasons the undocumented come here. I know many of them. I see the human side of this problem. If I knew the answer I would offer it.

[Lance_Boyle]

50. Actually you're quite wrong.

Overstaying a legal visa is a civil offense. Illegal border crossing is a criminal offense. See USC 8, Sec. 1325(a).

[a la izquierda]

33. Come down and spend a week with me in Mexico

you'd be whining like a spoiled brat to get home after two days. You have zero idea, I gather, about the absolutely crushing poverty that most Mexicans endure. None. There's no government assistance when you lose work. Odds are, if you have a roof over your head and you're poor, the roof is a tarp. You might live with 10 family members, none of whom have much chance of making money. Thank you, NAFTA and a corrupt federal government (Mexican).
So, faced with feeding your starving family, or crossing a line in the desert, what are you going to do?
You think that's bad? Guatemala and Honduras are worse. Women get murdered for no damn reason in Guatemala. Yeah, I'd get the hell out of there too.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. Thank you.

Another thing many don't understand is that most of the undocumented (at least the ones I know) would love to go back to their home country. So if it was in the best interests of their family for them to return home, they would.

[superduperfarleft]

38. +1.

Nevermind the fact that legal immigration to the US is so prohibitively expensive even for people coming from non-Hispanic countries, and there's certain other countries where you might as well not waste your time (Vietnam and Morocco spring to mind), since USCIS isn't going to approve you anyway (just take your $1000+ and deny you without appeal). Nevermind the fact that work visas are rarely given to poor laborers from Central America, and in order to get one, you oftentimes have to be previously contracted with some sort of employer that applies for them in bulk, and may or may not be a legitimate employer or some scumbag company forcing people into indentured servitude once they get here (try having a conversation with your Russian/Eastern European cab driver sometime, it's illuminating to say the least).

Using the law as the ultimate arbiter of what is morally right is intellectually lazy as it is, but at least the anti-immigrant crowd could bother to familiarize themselves with what this legal process entails before spouting off about it.

[skepticscott]

40. Please don't presume what I know and don't know

Hundreds of millions, if not billions of people live in crushing poverty all over the world. Should the United States simply open our borders to every single one of them that can get here? Is that your solution? Or does there ultimately have to be SOME limit on how the economic resources of this country are expended? If so, who should be setting those limits, if not the citizens of this country and their elected representatives? What about the effect on other people (citizens and legal immigrants) who are trying just as hard to take care of their families, but who lose out on jobs because they are more expensive to employ than people who are here illegally? Do the citizens of this country not have the right to protect the interests of those people, and to place their interests above those of people who are here illegally?

I can see that you have your Pollyanna view of how things should be, but let's hear a specific policy solution that acknowledges the cold, hard facts on the ground. People like you seem woefully short on details when you're forced to confront those realities.

[a la izquierda]

41. Pollyanna? Please.

I would prefer if immigrants didn't come here because they could stay in their own country. But the fact of the matter is it's not politically expedient to do anything about immigrants. They're powerless and nobody gives a shit except to make them a scapegoat. I don't suggest we open the borders. Nowhere in my post did I suggest that. I simply wrote that you have no clue about what precipitates Latin American immigration. I'd bet a paycheck you haven't a clue what goes on in Latin America.

[skepticscott]

48. Yes, Pollyanna

Since you seem to feel that if everyone would just smile and show compassion that it will make very real limits on resources magically disappear.

And since you (among other people here) seem unwilling to answer specific policy questions, I'll reiterate them:

Should the United States simply open our borders to every poverty-stricken person in the world that can get here?

Or does there ultimately have to be SOME limit on how the economic resources of this country are expended?

If so, who should be setting those limits, if not the citizens of this country and their elected representatives?

What about the effect on other people (citizens and legal immigrants) who are trying just as hard to take care of their families, but who lose out on jobs because they are more expensive to employ
than people who are here illegally?

Do the citizens of this country not have the right to protect the interests of those people, and to place their interests above those of people who are here illegally?


Those are the kinds of hard questions that people who presume to actually govern and make real policy have to address. You may not always like the answers that are arrived at, but you can't expect to be taken seriously unless you acknowledge the need to ask.

[a la izquierda]

49. No, we should not have an open border.

But as I mentioned, no politician wants to make decisions about undocumented workers because it's not politically expedient. One can make extremely racist laws like Arizona, but do those laws actually solve anything? No. The criminals are the corporations who hire undocumented workers. Pay Americans a living wage, and this might be less of an issue.
Did you know that Mexicans could cross the border without much hullabaloo until the Depression? Then they became scapegoats.

Do you not realize that people have been asking for legislation for years? Has it not occurred to you that NOTHING IS GETTING DONE at the federal level? Why?

[skepticscott]

52. I know perfectly well why

nothing is getting done at the federal level, and I don't excuse it. But the fact that Congress is delinquent in its responsibility to reform immigration law does not alter the validity of the current laws, or our essential right to enforce them.

And why do you repeatedly refuse to answer my direct questions about this issue? I laid them out very specifically, and you have nothing in answer. Why should I take your idealistic pronouncements seriously, when you have nothing that addresses reality?

[a la izquierda]

66. If I had the answers...

I wouldn't be on DU. Duh. I'd be working for some high-powered lobby in DC. I am not a pie-in-the-sky idealist. Because, you know, these are human beings. There are no simple answer. Cops can enforce the racist laws in Arizona (according to your profile you don't live there-so these should only concern you inasmuch as they're dangerously overreaching) but they're unconstitutional and have been ruled so. Lawmakers can create new, equally racist laws (like Oklahoma wants to do), but what is the point except to pander to the racist, fearful right? They'll, in theory, be struck down. Those laws don't actually do anything.
Let the Border Patrol arrest people crossing and deport them. Raiding businesses and deporting undocumented workers won't solve the problem-because there are workers to replace them and the business owners know it. Militarizing the border will not work, I can pretty much assure you of this. The minute that even one soldier crosses into Mexico will result in a violent reaction. See, I study the history of Mexico for a living, and Mexicans don't take kindly to foreign intervention on their soil.

You know as well as I do that there are no easy answers. If there were, this would NOT be a problem. You can accuse me of being idealistic all you want. In reality, my problem is simply that I'm aware of the fact that undocumented workers are people, not pieces of filth or lawbreakers like the right makes them out to be. Did they break a law? For sure. Would I break the same law if it meant feeding my starving family? You bet. And you're disingenuous if you suggest you wouldn't.

Okay, I'm sort of tired of this. Because I can't convince you that I have an answer (since I don't), you'll accuse me of being a pie-in-the-sky bleeding heart. So be it. I'm pretty well convinced I have a better handle on (at least the Latin American) situation.

[EFerrari]

55. Those aren't hard questions, they're just the wrong questions.

Maybe in your pollyanna view of the world all the girls are pretty and the United States is above reproach.

In the reality based world, you need to deal with the fact that the United States killed Mexican agriculture with NAFTA (along with a lot of US jobs) and with the fact that hungry people will try to survive. There is no fence that will keep them out and unless you want to recruit some of your pals to serve as Minute Man Lawn Chair warriors and shoot their own feet off 24/7, those displaced people will continue to come here.

So, you can repeal NAFTA or you can learn to speak Spanish. Those are your real choices.

[skepticscott]

57. By "wrong" questions, you mean what, exactly?

Irrelevant to US immigration policy? I hope you're not claiming something so ridiculous.

Relevant, but inconvenient for you to answer honestly and directly? Given the inability of any advocate of illegal immigrants to give coherent answers to such questions, EVER...that's where my money is.

And this: "Maybe in your pollyanna view of the world all the girls are pretty and the United States is above reproach." Sheesh. Is that the best response you have? Where in any of my posts have I ever said that the United States is above reproach, or even implied that? My position is that the United States has a right to enact and enforce policies regarding who among non-citizens may enter this country, from where, for how long and for what reasons, and that we have a right (within limits) to put the interests of our own citizens above those of the citizens of any other country in enacting those laws, just as they have the right to do in their own countries.

In the reality-based world, anyone who is not advocating completely open borders can't be taken seriously unless their policy proposals address the issues I've raised.

[EFerrari]

58. I think I was pretty clear about the real choices at your disposal. n/t

[skepticscott]

61. Yes, you were

which is why I pointed out that your response was completely inadequate as a serious policy proposal (or as pretty much anything else, for that matter). Apparently you have nothing more in the way of a substantive response than anyone else here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. You know what? The conditions that lead to people

wanting to leave their home countries are created by advanced economies. In the case of Mexico by NAFTA.
'
Here is one thing you probably do not realize about NAFTA and for the life of me I have yet to meet an Immigration Lawyer that brings this up...

SIDE FUCKING AGREEMENTS.

They state clearly that people in the NAFTA zone can move freely between the three nations without the need for ... papers... as long as they have a job waiting.

They also had something about minimum wages in the zone.

I bet a month's salary you did not know that.

I also bet a year's salary that you do not know how many EJidos have been destroyed, pushing people off the land, in the name of big agro companies in the United States in the Bread Basket of Mexico, that would be the Bajio.

And a decade's salary that you probably do not know that companies such as TYSON foods, HIRED illegals in Guadalajara quite openly mind you, did not arrange for papers, brought them to oh places like Georgia, using Polleors, that is until the MEXICAN Federal Government went after them and even prosecuted some low level flunkies for HUMAN TRAFFICKING.

So how is that simplistic thinking of yours working now?

[skepticscott]

59. All I hear in all of this is a rant

Which may make you feel superior, but which solves nothing. As far as "simplistic thinking", I've directly asked everyone who's responded for serious, thoughtfully considered, realistic policy proposals on this issue and have gotten nothing but blather and evasion in response.

Do you have any serious answers to the questions that I've posed? What do you have to offer as far as concrete policy proposals? Any answer to an American citizen who is unemployed and homeless because THEIR job was outsourced to another country, and they can't get another because it's far cheaper for employers to hire illegals? I'm betting a year's salary you haven't talked to any such, or that you even know how many there are.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. You call facts on the real ground a "rant."

nice way to dismiss actual human trafficking.

I guess the Passage was a cruise and the Indentures from Europe were just summer vacations.

[skepticscott]

68. Uh, that's what a rant usually is

in case you hadn't noticed. A string of complaints about the facts on the ground, with no solutions that address reality. Despite your projections, I in no way "dismissed" human trafficking. I merely called your rant what it was. And since you (like everyone else) ducked my simple questions, I'll assume you have nothing to offer in the way of serious and non-simplistic thinking. But thanks for playing.

[Liberal_in_LA]

60. yes, we forget about how poor live in Mexico. Thanks for the reminder

[a la izquierda]

67. And that's not to negate how badly the poor have it here.

There's a big difference: in Mexico, the poor are right in one's face, viewed by all and helped by few. In the US, most don't think there's a problem, because much propaganda has been spewed to make it seem that way. It's a flippin' disgrace in both cases.

Gah, I can't deal with immigration threads. But thanks for your post.

[TheFarseer]

72. the fact that people can just leave

insures that nothing is done to improve the situation. If they all had to stay, they might rise up and kill those bastards in charge. It's the only way it will ever change.

[a la izquierda]

74. Sign up to go foment revolution, then.

Perhaps you should read about the first Mexican Revolution. 1 million dead between 1910-1920. That was 10% of the population, at least. How many do you think would die this time? How many would flee? You think we have a problem with people coming illegally now?
And I'm sure our fellow citizens on the border would really appreciate a Revolution in Mexico right now. As if there aren't enough problems in their backyards.

[aquart]

14. If they're on the books, their taxes are withheld.

[dkf]

19. It is one thing to have an automatic withholding and another to file taxes.

It is outrageous that the Feds just let this go on. No wonder these people are confused as to if they are allowed to stay or not. With one hand the Government blesses their stay by okaying all this documentation and the other hand gives them the finger.

[aquart]

20. So they don't file and the fed keeps their money . All of it.

What, precisely, is your complaint? If they do file, they pay taxes on their income, but will never be able to collect on the SS deductions, will they? So what, precisely, is your complaint? That we're taking money these people have earned and giving them nothing for it? What?

[dkf]

24. The Government could easily cross reference things and they choose not to.

They condone all this leaving these people confused. There are too many mixed messages.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. Because they are making money off of them

I've read estimates of several hundred million a year in uncollected refunds for the undocumented. They also pay SS but never collect it.

[MH1]

37. actually, the government is implementing a program to do that - e-verify

it just hasn't been mandated broadly yet, but I predict it will be, eventually.

[Riftaxe]

27. Bless those angels, surely you wouldn't

even blink an eye when the IRS comes after you, when the fraudulent SS number used multiple times is yours. I am sure you can sort it out with one phone call..

Ahh, it might take more then one...what do you mean it will make your life a living hell for several months?

well, darn...perhaps they should make a law against that kind of thing...maybe even make it a felony...oh wait, it is...but no worries, only someone already inclined to ignore laws would ever put you through that kind of nightmare, and we know people who disobey immigration laws would never screw around with labor and ID theft laws.

[MH1]

36. I think with the e-verify program that 'blessing' will stop.

It was originally limited to federal contractors but I think the mandate will be expanded, if it hasn't already.

[pinboy3niner]

16. You don't need a fake I.D. to pay the IRS

They created taxpayer I.D. numbers that can be used by anyone--legally.

[dkf]

23. Hmm. So these employers totally know then.

Social security numbers don't look like the numbers you get from the Government.

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. Of course they know

Some of the employers even help the workers sneak in to work. A friend of mine used to manage a garden store. Her boss took buses to Mexico every year and brought workers and their families back here. He also owned an apartment building where they lived.

[Riftaxe]

28. Do you file W-2 forms for your employees?

if not, how are you getting around it?

[Confusious]

63. And how do they do that?

They don't give out social security numbers to illegal immigrants. So they must be stealing those numbers to pay into Social security. Identity theft.

[Bigmack]

6. All 4 of my grandparents sneaked into this country...

Catholics... all of them. Irish and French.

Hard for me to get all pissy about hardworking people who want to stay here.
I'd rather have this country support Juan and his family than a few thousand Wall Street leeches.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. Same here

My ancestors on my dad's side were too poor to come legally so they snuck in from Ireland. My mom's family was from England and had money so they came legally. I heard that growing up and didn't know whether to believe it or not. Then I went to Ellis Island where you can look up your family members who came into the US there. And sure enough, my mom's family was in the records but my dad's family was not.

[Bigmack]

21. Mine both came in thru Canada...

and I have found some of the most interesting papers on those people. Birth certificates and baptismal records and other papers that simply do not add up.

It's a tradition in our family not to burden the authorities with too much (real) personal information.

[aquart]

22. My grandfather illegally through Canada.

He was a bad boy.

[KT2000]

9. AZ is in for a big surprsie

No more cheap labor in the Home Depot parking lot among many many other jobs.
They are in for some inflation. Next thing you know, they will be screaming about the high cost of hiring workers.

[dkf]

11. The high costs of hiring Americans you mean?

Paying a livable wage perhaps?

[KT2000]

25. Yep

can't you just see a dinner table of Jan Brewer and her friends complaining about the help that disappeared and now they can't find anyone to take those jobs - at least at the wages offered (below minimum wage).

[LAGC]

12. May as well just say Hispanics are preparing to leave Arizona period.

This racist profiling law doesn't just target undocumented immigrants, it targets anyone who LOOKS like one. (And we know they aren't after Canadians.)

I can imagine a lot of hard-working, honest American CITIZENS who happen to have dark skin are re-thinking their home state right now, or will definitely be if they get harassed by the police over this law.

I have a feeling Arizona is about to get a wee bit whiter, which will ensure Republican rule for the foreseeable future. I think that's part of the design of this monstrosity.

[aquart]

17. Whiter and poorer.

The Mexicans aren't only leaving because of harassment. They're leaving because there are no jobs.

Now, maybe Arizona can survive on gun fairs and White Power meetings, but I can't see why any brunette would set foot in the state.

Maybe they'll inbreed and we'll get to profile them.

[coalition_unwilling]

43. I had planned to take my wife to Sedona, AZ to see the artists

living and working there and other attractions along the way. As a result of this law, wife and I have now decided to make other vacation plans. We'll probably go up to San Francisco instead, as she has not seen it before, and keep our money in blue California.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. A friend of mine who is Hispanic and 100% American was pulled over in Arizona this summer

He lives here and was in AZ on vacation. He got pulled over and was taken into custody for several hours until he could prove he was American. He had to call his family in MO and have them fax a copy of his birth certificate to the police station in AZ.

He also swears he was not speeding or violating any traffic laws when he was pulled over.

[WolverineDG]

51. nope, no profiling going on there

nope, none at all.

some woman around Dallas got thrown into deportation proceedings because the cops (racist assholes) refused to believe she was born in the U.S. The immigration judge just about had a fit when he saw her birth certificate.

dg

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

54. What kind of fit did the judge have?

"ARRRRGH, those idiots wanted to deport a US citizen!"

or

"ARRRRGH, we can't deport this damn Mexican!"

[WolverineDG]

65. the first kind

but thanks kindly for not engaging in stereotyping all Texas as racist assholes.

dg

[surrealAmerican]

42. It will be interesting to see just what sort of impact ...

... this will have on their economy. They could well find all sorts of jobs being left undone, and/or prices going up in unanticipated ways. It may actually result in job losses for legal residents, as some companies (that employ a mixture of legal and illegal workers) choose to relocate or just go out of business.

[WolverineDG]

53. no one to mow their yards or clean their houses

plus stores where immigrants shop a lot will see a drastic drop-off in business. Oh well.

dg

[MellowDem]

64. The business owners will be devastated....

now who will they hire so cheaply and not have to worry about labor conditions or labor organizing?

Seriously though, some may leave, but most will stay, and the charade of labor will continue in America. Export to China, import from Mexico. Cheap labor for everoyone! God Bless America.

[LiberalEsto]

69. The American Dream is over for me too

and for many many other members of what used to be the Middle Class.

[xchrom]

71. I'll go out on a limb here and say that if there is a sizeable Latino

Move away from Arizona - it won't work out well for Arizona.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

73. illegal alien panhandlers...

there are 2 panhandlers. jose is almost starving, but Raymundo has a mansion, a limo, the works. So Jose asks Raymundo why he's so sucessful? Raymundo says,"Let me see your sign". Jose shows it to him. It reads,"I have 4 kids, we are starving, please help". Raymundo laughs and says,"That is the problem. Look at MY sign". It reads,"I only need $10 to get back to Mexico".