We need to rush through the tax cut..that raises taxes on the poor????

[mdavies013]

If you make $20,000 or less your taxes rise under this plan. Just the kind of help poor people are looking for...the shaft.

[doc03]

1. Wouldn't the making work pay and the $250 that SS

recipients got last year have the same stimulative effect as the payroll tax cut? The Obama plan is tilted to the upper income people too, anyone making over $106000 gets a $2120 break. The people making under $20000 get $400 or less. SS recipients get nothing. Didn't the making work pay plan give a married couple $800 and a single $400?

[sunwyn]

2. There was no $250 dollar payment fron SS last year

[doc03]

38. Yes there was, last year was 2009 and there was a

$250 payment but not one this year 2010.

[Hello_Kitty]

7. The swap of Making Work Pay with the payroll holiday raises taxes on the poor $175 to $200

It's actually very anti-stimulative when you consider that it could apply to as many as 50 million, or 1 in 3, workers. A lot of people here are defending it by comparing it to the effect of letting all the tax cuts expire, which is not even a remotely likely scenario. Instead we should be comparing this year to next year. They should have kept the credit and ditched the payroll holiday.

[bobbolink]

14. "Making work pay" ???? Does it EVER occur to you that some of us CAN'T work????

:crazy:

[doc03]

39. So if you can't or don't work you don't get a

payroll tax holiday either. Maybe I misunderstood, are you assuming there will be no unemployment if the Democrats don't accept Obama's plan? If the Obama plan is voted down and it goes to the Republicans next year can't the Democrats hold up anything in the Senate with the filibuster unless there is an unemployment extension? My biggest concern with the plan is the cutting of the payroll tax. It gives the damn Republicans more fuel to blame SS for the deficit and they will use it for an excuse to make more cuts in SS.

[bobbolink]

46. Nice bait and switch. The topic I replied to talked about replacing current

"help" with the work plan.

I replied that, contrary to what so many of you don't seem to get, many USians can't work.

And, of course, not only did you call me names, but you added the RW tactic of "don't WANT to work".

There is no point in carrying if further, as clearly there is no desire to understand what some people are living with... real hell.

[doc03]

60. First of all, I never said "don't want to work", I said "don't work"

I "don't work" because I am retired and in my case "I don't want to work", I worked for 44 years to get here. I assume if you "can't work" like you say you are either disabled or laid off. If you don't work you wouldn't receive anything from "making work pay" and you wouldn't receive anything from the payroll tax cut either. So what is your point are you referring to receiving unemployment or what? I don't have a clue what your point is. I think the "making work pay" plan was far better than this payroll tax cut for several reasons. I don't know maybe you receive SS or SSI and in that case I would like to get the $250 that was in the stimulus myself. With this Obama/GOP plan I get nothing other than a cut in SS funding that will come back to bite us in the butt.

[bobbolink]

69. You said "won't work" before you were asked to change it.

There are plenty of posts about how poor people will be paying more under the "plan" that you are obviously in favor of.

What we know is that when someone is that intent on supporting one particular person, whether what that person does hurts others or not is inconsequential.

[doc03]

71. Like hell I changed it! You can't understand English I guess.

I said the that the "making work pay" under the stimulus was far better than the payroll tax cut for several reasons. I am agreeing with you! One of them being that the money goes to higher income people, a person making under $20000 actually gets less than the making work pay gave them. I also don't like the idea of cutting the payroll tax because it will come back and bite us on the ass when the Republicans want to cut SS.

[bobbolink]

78. You are so right. Everyone is stupid, and nobody can understand English except you.

Wow, we are sooo lucky to have you! Because disdain is soooo attractive and wins soooo many friends and converts. You sure won me over!

[progressiveinaction]

47. How about an office job?

You seem to have the ability to type pretty proficiently, have you thought about any office work or is there anything in your area that you have the qualifications for?

[bobbolink]

48. You know, delving into people's personal business on a public (and often ugly) forum

isn't very thoughtful.

The POINT, since so many of you seem to MISS it,, is that there are many people who are too old, too sick, or too injured to work.

OK????????????

You would like us to hurl ourselves off a cliff for you?

[progressiveinaction]

64. What???

How am I delving into your business by asking if you if there are opportunities for you to better your situation?

So if I am having a conversation with someone out of work and I may know something out there they could be doing and I suggest it, I'm delving into their personal business? It's certainly not something to get defensive about and ask outrageous, dramatic questions like "you would like us to hurl ourselves off a cliff for you?" It really would be nice if you could explain how I'm delving into your personal business.

My next question would have been which category do you fall under (too old, too sick, too injured) but I guess that would probably be too personal as well.

And what is really curious is that you say this forum is often ugly, yet you remain here????

[bobbolink]

68. You heard me, and you know what you did. NONE of us owe you any personal explanations.

What I was talking about is a SOCIETAL problem, and you were trying to make it a personal problem.

No sale.

Deal with the societal issue.

Oh, and a clue, since you are new----inviting someone to leave DU is against the rules.

Tend to your own personal problems, and deal here with the societal issues.

[WinkyDink]

54. What a snide, nasty, NON-DEMOCRATIC post.

[progressiveinaction]

65. Huh? What was snide and nasty about what I said?

[truedelphi]

18. people making around 15K to 17K (and some of those making less)

Will pay around $ 150 a year more. This amounts to a One Percent increase.

now we have just seen the most epic "WHINE" in history where all the "money" experts have let us know that hundreds of extremely wealthy people cannot afford the four percent hike in their taxes.

But poor people should pay 1% more?

Give me a break.

[dennis4868]

3. Of course it is not mentioned here at DU....

that if there is no tax deal soon, taxes will go up on the lowest tax bracket from 10% to 15%, a 50% tax hike....just look at the negatives of the deal....got to keep up the narrative at DU that Obama is a sellout.

[w4rma]

4. Then they can fight and blame it on the Republicans. (nt)

[dennis4868]

20. That's right...

just like the American people during the last election blamed the repubs for obstructing during the first 2 obama years for such things as UI, help for 911 responders, more HC for veterans, etc...

[John Q. Citizen]

5. This is about the deal, not about obama. I reject the deal, not obama.

[Lorien]

8. Taxes go up for the poor IF the Obama/ GOP deal goes through

tax cuts for the rich, tax HIKES for the poor. Reverse Robin Hoodism.

[dennis4868]

21. right....

but only by a few dollars a week. But if the tax deal fails, those in the lowest bracket will have their taxes go UP 50%....

[Hannah Bell]

40. uh, no, they won't.

[pnwmom]

25. What tax hikes for the poor are you talking about? n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

9. It's mentioned here all the damn time.

And it's the #1 go-to defense for this proposed tax hike on the poor. You just used it right now. It's a strawman. There's no way all the tax cuts are expiring so knock it off.

[dennis4868]

22. tax cut will expire if there is no deal...

what are you talking about?

[Hello_Kitty]

26. And then the new GOP led Congress will pass all the tax cuts.

They'll probably go ahead and pass this compromise since it was their compromise.

But my point was that your assertion that no one mentions all the tax cuts expiring here is horseshit.

[pnwmom]

28. So taxes will go up and everyone will blame Obama. Then taxes will go down

and the Rethugs will get all the credit.

Great.

[Hello_Kitty]

30. Why would taxes go up for everyone (except the poor as we've discussed)

If the GOP passes the same compromise plan in the new session?

[pnwmom]

49. Next session is too late. Automatic pay deductions will automatically INCREASE

with the expiration of the current law at the end of this year. Before they lower taxes on everyone, the Rethugs WILL drag it out for at least a few months. Why? So that they can make Obama look bad, and take credit for the eventual tax cuts.

[Hello_Kitty]

36. Oh looky! People are mentioning it all over this very thread! eom

[Bluebear]

77. Don't waste your time on that one.

Really.

[eridani]

72. Right--the same taxes they paid during the 90s. Big whoop n/t

[TheKentuckian]

6. "We can't allow taxes to go up on our poor and middle class citizens or there will be suffering"

Meanwhile, back in reality we look at the distribution of the so called middle class tax relief and we find for most folks we are talking 10-20 bucks a week and pretending it will be an effective stimulus and ignoring the reality that the serious bulk of this debt is a game to payoff the top 20% or so at the long term expense of the capability of government, increased poverty, destruction of incentive to invest, and continuing the disparity that helps fuel this whole paradigm.

Of all the things we need this level of spending for and you come with some bullshit tax cuts selling them fucking verbatim to how they were sold by the failed moneychanging crooks the last time.


IT DOESN'T WORK!!! How is that for pragmatism? If something fucking stupid doesn't work I will be hardliner against it when in a desperate game of Groundhog's Day, my allies try the same shit in a vain effort to "get something done".
It is possible to do the wrong thing. That should get special credence when it is the same solution you just gave the old college try to and failed miserably just prior to your next stab at it.

Telling the truth would unravel much of the upper hand the Republicans can seem to have. Trying to make sure the upperclass suburbanites had a chance to get their beaks wet has made the entire policy essentially bullshit. Most Americans will get a token to bribe them into supporting shrink the pig against their interest.

A simple appeal to greed.

[Odin2005]

10. WHAAAAT!?!

:grr:

[knitter4democracy]

62. Here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTHL0MAWkmY&feature=related

Better "Whaaaaat?!"

[stopbush]

11. 1. How much do they rise? 2. Don't they rise more if there is no plan?

I await your response as I'm sure you have the data handy to reply quickly.

[pnwmom]

56. Taxes on lowest incomes will go up a full 50% when current rates expire.

The bottom tax rate will go from 10 to 15% -- a 50% increase. Other millions will find themselves owning taxes instead of getting a refund.

[FrenchieCat]

12. Because if there is no deal, their taxes go up much higher than if we don't....

Scenario -

Currently w/t Bush tax cuts:
Single person earning $18,000 per year.
Taxable income in 2010 is $8,650.
Tax @ 10% = $884
Make Work credit is $400
tax liability is $484


With No deal & Bush tax cuts expired:
Same person earning $18,000 per year.
Taxable income in 2011 is $8,650.
Tax $ 15% = $1,297.50
No more Work credit
Tax liability is $1,297.50


With tax compromise:
Same person earning $18,000 per year.
Taxable income in 2011 is $8,650.
Tax $ 10% = $884
No more Work credit
add 2% in Payroll tax deduction
Tax liability is $524

[rocktivity]

16. None of which justifies borrowing money that WE--not THEY -- have to pay back

to extend the cuts--unless, of course, they gave the money TO us.

THAT, along with reducing Social Security revenue which will translate into service cuts in future, is what makes this a bad deal.

:headbang:
rocktivity

[FrenchieCat]

35. Ok, Deficit hawk!

Let the children play in the fucking streets....
cause their parents have no money for childcare.
How cold are you?


Here are your two options:

Scenario # 1 - single person earning $10,000

With No deal & Bush tax cuts expired:
Same person earning $10,000 per year.
Taxable income in 2011 is $650.
Tax $ 15% = $97.50
No more Work credit
Tax liability is PAY $97.50


With tax compromise:
Same person earning $10,000 per year.
Taxable income in 2011 is $650.
Tax $ 10% = $65
No more Work credit
add 2% in Payroll tax deduction of $200
Tax liability is REFUND OF $135

Scenario # 2 single person earning $18,000

With No deal & Bush tax cuts expired:
Same person earning $18,000 per year.
Taxable income in 2011 is $8,650.
Tax $ 15% = $1,297.50
No more Work credit
Tax liability is PAY $1,297.50


With tax compromise:
Same person earning $18,000 per year.
Taxable income in 2011 is $8,650.
Tax $ 10% = $884
No more Work credit
add 2% in Payroll tax deduction
Tax liability is PAY $524

Scenario # 3 Married Couple w/o chilren earning $25,000

With No deal & Bush tax cuts expired:
Same couple earning $25,000 per year.
Taxable income in 2011 is $7,950 (due to change in marriage penalty)
Tax @ 15% = $1,192.50
No more Work credit
Tax liability is PAY $1,192.50


With tax compromise:
Same couple earning $25,000 per year.
Taxable income in 2011 is $6,300.
Tax @ 10% = $663
No more Work credit
add 2% in Payroll tax deduction of $500
Tax liability is PAY $139

Scenario # 4 Married Couple w/t 2 children earning $25,000

With No deal & Bush tax cuts expired:
Same couple earning $25,000 per year with 2 children.
Taxable income in 2011 is $550 (due to change in marriage penalty)
Tax @ 15% = $82.50
Child Tax Credit given= $82.50
EIC (earned Inc. Tax Credit) = $3,362
No additional Child Tax Credit given= $ ZER0
No more Work credit
Tax liability is REFUND OF $3,362


With tax compromise:
Same couple earning $25,000 per year, with 2 children
Taxable income in 2011 is $ ZERO.
Tax @ 10% = $ ZERO
No more Work credit
EIC (earned Inc. Tax Credit) = $4,415
Child Tax Credit given= $2,000
add 2% in Payroll tax deduction of $500
Tax liability is REFUND OF $6,915

Scenario # 3 Married Couple w/t 2 children earning $40,000

With No deal & Bush tax cuts expired:
Same couple earning $40,000 per year.
Taxable income in 2011 is $15,550 (due to change in marriage penalty)
Tax @ 15% = $2,332.50
Child Tax Credit given= $1,000
EIC (earned Inc. Tax Credit) = $203
No more Work credit
Tax liability is PAY $1,129.50


With tax compromise:
Same couple earning $40,0000 per year.
Taxable income in 2011 is $14,000.
Tax @ 10% = $1,403
Child Tax Credit given= $1,403
EIC (earned Inc. Tax Credit) = $1,256
No more Work credit
additional child tax credit of $597
add 2% in Payroll tax deduction of $800
Tax liability is REFUND OF $2,653

[rocktivity]

51. Getting the big picture BEFORE zeroing in the right target

is EXACTLY what hawks do best.

:headbang:
rocktivity

[eridani]

74. Why do you think people give a shit about taxes that have already been withheld?

They don't. WA state just voted down an income tax on earners making more than $250K, out of fear that it would lead to an income tax for all. Even it it had, my own state representative has shown data on a progressive income tax plus greatly reduced sales taxes would lead to lower taxes for 80% of the population. WA has the most regerssive tax system in the nation, bar none. And the people who want to keep it are the lowest income people who would benefit most from change.

Why? Because the sales tax is a nickle and dime tax that they don't notice, and therefore don't care about. Withholding has a similar effect. As long as people get some refund, they don't give a shit about what they actually pay this year as opposed to last year. After all, Obama already gave everyone a tax cut, and nobody noticed or cared.

[pnwmom]

52. Progressive economists agree that we need to stimulate the economy now,

and that that can't be done without increasing the deficit. The only question is how. Lowering the payroll tax IS a stimulus, since almost all of that will be put right back into the economy. Lowering the tax rates on the rich is not, since that will go mostly into savings.

When this "holiday" is over, I think Obama should push to retain the lower rate and instead increase the limit on the income the Social Security tax is applied to (something he's been advocating since at least 2007.)

[rocktivity]

53. But if we can't lower the tax rates for the rich without borrowing

then why should only the rich get it? If we ALL got a piece of it, we'd have money to spend--and stimulate the economy by creating demand for which businesses would have to create jobs!

:headbang:
rocktivity

[pnwmom]

55. Who's advocating that only the rich should get a lower tax rate?

I'm confused.

[eridani]

76. Right. LIke a payday loan is a "stimulus"

Money up front now, get your retirement trashed later.

[doc03]

41. You are assuming if there is no deal that all the tax cuts will

expire, no matter what the tax cuts on people making under $250000 aren't going to expire both parties are in agreement with them. If the deal doesn't get passed the Republicans will have the votes to extend them anyway. If the Republicans want to play hardball don't the Democrats have the power to block anything in the Senate with a filibuster just like the Republicans had for the last two years?

[pnwmom]

57. If there is no deal the tax cuts WILL EXPIRE. By law.

Automatic payroll deductions will increase as of January 1, 2011. The new session doesn't even begin for weeks after that.

The only question is how long Rethugs will allow the higher rates to remain in place before they take credit for reducing them -- at all income levels. They will have little motivation for doing anything quickly because dragging out the process will make Obama look more and more ineffective. And they would present themselves as the saviors in the end.

[doc03]

61. The Democrats should have taken this thing on months ago

and we wouldn't be in this mess. They were too preoccupied with passing the HCR plan that nobody likes and ended up getting them voted out of office anyway. The Democrats screwed up, instead of getting into the HCR battle while we were in a recession they should have focused on jobs.

[pnwmom]

63. And why would the Rethugs have been any more willing to

cooperate then?

[doc03]

66. Back then Democrats could have won the argument easily. But

now with three more weeks in the year it appears the Democrats are the bad guys trying to stop tax cuts and unemployment. I have heard several people say exactly that the last few days, that is the impression the public is getting. I talked to one of people I used to work with just yesterday and he blamed the Democrats for holding up unemployment extensions.

[pnwmom]

67. Oh yeah? Says who? The Rethugs were going for tax cuts for ALL

from the very beginning. They've filibustered everything the Dems have put forth for the last 2 years, including other bills related to these tax cuts.

[eridani]

73. Which no one will care about because it's already been withheld n/t

[bobbolink]

13. Haven't you noticed? We poor people don't matter to "progressives".

Raise the gas tax, charge for plastic bags... hell, pass every REGRESSIVE tax there is.

Then we poor folk can die and leave more for the rest of you.

[Rex]

17. The poor and the homeless don't ever matter.

Easy numbers to replace.

[bobbolink]

19. Thankkk you. Our sufferin and deaths are piffle to DU.

[laughingliberal]

15. Yep. Hurry, before they figure it out. nt

[pnwmom]

23. If you can prove that statement, please provide a link. n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

24. Right here:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/displayatab.cfm?Docid=2866&DocTypeID=7

First 2 rows, last column. Swapping Making Work Pay credit for SS tax cut results in higher taxes for those making $20K or less.

[pnwmom]

27. Was Making Work Pay part of the one-year stimulus package?

It's not a swap then. It's just the end of that program.

[Hello_Kitty]

29. Whatever you call it, low income people's taxes go up next year from this year.

You wanted proof. You were given it.

[pnwmom]

31. Those at the low end go up far more -- 50% -- if the tax cuts expire.

And millions will owe taxes who would have been getting a refund under the current system.

[Hello_Kitty]

33. So you're going with "it could be worse, paupers" I see.

While keeping your own tax cut intact.

[pnwmom]

50. Oh yeah, right. That must be it. n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

32. But they'll go up more if nothing is passed

and so the 'rush' is a reasonable thing to talk about.

It seems no-one (at a high level) has proposed extending Making Work Pay.

[Hello_Kitty]

34. So I'll put you in the "okay with it" column too.

I'm guessing your taxes are staying the same under the plan. Or maybe you'll do better under the SS payroll cut like everyone over $30K will do.

[katnapped]

37. Of course they're ok with it

"I GOTS MINE...NOT LIKE PO'PEOPLE CONTRIBUTE ANYTHING...DO THEY EVEN PAY TAXES?"

[Hello_Kitty]

42. Yep. I've heard that one a few time.

"The poor don't pay taxes anyway"

I've paid taxes every year of my working life. Including in 2008 when I grossed about $8K. I don't have dependents.

[muriel_volestrangler]

43. Seeing as I'm British, your assumptions are completely useless

But it might be good for you to face up to the reality that, at the moment, there is no proposal from someone who might get it agreed that includes extending Making Work Pay. If you want to alter that, then get onto your Congresspeople, and get them to put forward a new proposal. Just saying "what's the rush" won't fix it.

[Hello_Kitty]

45. It's not my OP and I did just as you proposed.

I called my Senators and my Congressman to ask them to address this problem in the plan. They are Republican wankers so it probably didn't do any good but at least I tried. I believe the compromise is going to go through with some tweaks and this is a very easy one to do.

[leeroysphitz]

44. You can't expect the wealthy to pay their fair share. n/t

[ipaint]

58. The bottom 40% of this country is off the presidents radar.

Just the comfy middle class gets all the pandering and that is just to keep them grabbing compromised crumbs and acting as the elites first line of defense should the massive underclass in this country get any "dangerous" ideas.

The president should have had the well being of the soon to majority underclass first and foremost in his proposed legislation. How can he allow taxes to be raised even one penny on those at the bottom while agreeing to thousands and millions to the top. Disgraceful.

Unfortunately reality is the rich and their gatekeepers in the upper middle class get the cuts and the underclass well we will just have to find more pennies to roll for toilet paper and gas. While the rich get an average of $70,000 dollars to have fun with.



I would rather suffer with a president on my side fighting than suffer because of one that is just another in a long line of elite abusers.

[bobbolink]

70. Deserves a repeat: "The bottom 40% of this country is off the presidents radar."

That is exactly it... and it needs to be repeated over and over and over until those above us LISTEN!

[ipaint]

59. Dupe. nt

[Initech]

75. More for them and less for us. Reverse Robin Hoods.