What some SANE Republicans are saying re:SS tax Holiday...

[Poboy]

I visit a financial board on occasion. Sites like those are predominantly republican. The subject of the SS tax holiday came up in one of the boards, and I found these posts very interesting.
Some are aware, and alliances to fight cuts might be formed in the future.




12-07-2010, 02:19 PM
woodsgirl

How can cutting SS tax help?
SO now SS will be unable to pay out even sooner than it was before? Why is this a good move? Someone clue me in. PLease explain how that money in the pockets of people right now make up for the early failure of SS>??? What am I missing?

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12-08-2010, 04:05 AM
Silver Tongued Devil
Member

I hate big goobermint as much as most, but I do like SS. Here's why:

I'm supposed to get about 1800/mo starting in about 15 years. Maybe it's more than 1800, can't remember. Right now with what I've saved from investments, I could earn maybe $150 per month if I could get 1%. Right now I could not earn 1% in any safe investment. When you retire, your investment has to be safe, it cannot be in stocks.

Right now, probably a majority of Americans have made nothing from investment in the past 10 years, and I'm guessing they will make nothing the next 10 years. In fact, as we know, most are at risk of losing everything.

BUT, if the morons in DC will do the right thing and keep SS solvent, then at least old folks including you youngins whining on this thread will get something. If you also have some other investments then you'll do OK. If not, maybe you'll be able to afford a room in a tent city instead of a cardboard box in a desert wash.

SS is not a ponzi scheme. It is insurance. It has been exceptionally successful at keeping 10s of millions of old farts from being totally destitute.

If you want to see a ponzi scheme look at the stock market. It is a TOTAL ponzi scheme. Look at PM's, or bank deposits, or US Treasuries, or the value of the dollar. Look at real estate prices. If people stop buying that stuff, and start selling, the price will very quickly be zero. The ABSOLUTE DEFINITION of a ponzi scheme. These things should not give you the warm and fuzzy about our nations economy.

FACT: If SS insurance goes away, 10s of millions of old people will die in the streets of America.

Medicare and Medicaid? Those are not insurance - we did not really pay into those like we did SS. Get rid of them and start widespread doctor assisted suicide - it can be done FAR more humanely than trying to keep old farts alive. That assisted suicide should be completely voluntary, or if the person is a vegetable and has no quality of life, perhaps the nearest relatives could sign papers to get them out of their misery - same as we do with our pets that we love.

Cutting SS tax? Stupidest thing I've ever heard of. They should raise the SS payroll tax from 6.7% to 8.7% or whatever it takes to make it solvent for the next 100 years, or whatever. Eventually the baby boomers will die off and hopefully the demographics will be better after that.

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12-08-2010, 09:34 PM

AntiSpin
Member

S T D is Correct --
Social Security has been solvent -- and far more than solvent -- for its entire history.

SS is not allowed to borrow or to run a deficit, and never has. In fact, the trust fund has loaned trillion$ to successive administrations, and has $2.6 trillion in treasury bonds to prove it.

And -- it operates on an overhead of just one percent. That's one of the reasons that Republicans, big corporate CEOs and privatization-mongers hate it; it shows them in a very bad light, comparatively.

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12-09-2010, 01:54 AM
ColDax
Member

It doesn't. The fact is, you can't spend more than you take in for long, or you'll be broke. Same with the federal government.

So, a person making 250,000 got a tax cut of about $800/month, giving them, on average $15,000 of after tax disposable income per month, rather than $14,200. ( Minus local and state taxes, which varies from state to state. ) The Bush tax custs cost the federal government, in revenue, around 8 TRILLION dollars. And guess what THAT got them. About 8 trillion dollars in debt while they carried out two wars and for the first time in history, during war time, didn't raise taxes.

California blew up their budget with Prop 13. If you had a house in Omaha, Nebraska, your property tax bill was higher than it was in San Francisco, California. Result, California is 77 billion dollars in debt.

This just in, you have to PAY for your....stuff. Increased government spending mixxed with tax cuts....just doesn't work. It's a recipe for disaster and we're seeing that disaster. If you want to cut taxes, just like if you want to quit your high paying job to pursue your art career, you have to cut back on expenses.

During the 2000's, the wealthiest 10% of the population, increased their wealth 61%. By this 'theory' that the rich create jobs we should be flush with jobs. There should be a labor shortage were this 'theory' true. But it ain't. Never was. True, the top 10% consume/spend 30% of the economy, but they also own 60% of it. Seems they aren't carrying their load. That other 90%, spends/consumes the other 70%.

I'm 58, been a republican all of my life, I've never voted democrat because I don't like the baggage they carry with their social agendas. Not fond of the far rights agenda either, but man...all I know is this...as long as we don't tax enough to pay for what we're spending, it's the same as looking your children in the eye, and your grandchildren and saying...

F@# YOU !!

And I just can't go for that. I'm willing to pay more a little more in taxes so their lives aren't ruined. And basically, that's all we're doing, is stealing their money. If I were 25 years old, I'd be furious. And I don't blame those that are. It's a flippin' crime what is going on.

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12-09-2010, 10:44 PM
Silver Tongued Devil
Member


ColDax is exactly right. Trickle down does not work when everyone is afraid the system is about to collapse, and that is the case right now. Everyone is scared sheeeeitless, so they will not spend any tax cut money - they'll put it in the safest place they can - probably gold, the mattress, etc.

Why would they cut SS tax? It is no secret that the Rs want to eliminate SS - I am guessing that by far and away the biggest reason for that is so people will put that money into the stock market. The people that run the world economy, the richest and most powerful people on earth, are no doubt pushing VERY HARD to get the Rs to somehow get rid of SS so there will be more going into THEIR stock market. That will be another big windfall for them and those rich people do not care one whit about the middle class folks whose labor they exploit, nor do they care when they create bubbles, reap windfalls, and watch the small investors life savings evaporate when the bubbles burst. This is all shown in the videos here: http://csper.org/debunking-money-cspers-2nd-.html as posted on another thread in this forum - very good videos by the way.

So, there is absolutely no doubt that cutting SS is an attempt to weaken and erode it and the Rs no doubt hope when the times come to increase the payroll tax back to where it is now, that the people will scream bloody murder exactly like they are doing today at the prospect of paying a measley 3% higher income tax that might make the debt smaller and actually keep our nation out of bankruptcy.

Without doubt, bankrupting of the nation is the final goal - when that happens the super rich rulers of the economy will buy everything in sight, leaving the rest of us a slaves, and they will then rule the western world - then they'll start working on doing the same to the developing world.

Reducing the debt should be the goal of every American, whether D, or R, or other - otherwise our money will be worthless and we'll lose all that we have worked for. The current tax cut/unemployment bill was obviously written by people whose intention is to bankrupt the US - it appears the world rulers have pressured Oblabber and the Repub leadership to get 'er done.

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12-09-2010, 10:48 PM
jamesstacker
Member

"Without doubt, bankrupting of the nation is the final goal - when that happens the super rich rulers of the economy will buy everything in sight, leaving the rest of us a slaves, and they will then rule the western world - then they'll start working on doing the same to the developing world."

BINGO!

The government is not the enemy. Those who own it are.

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12-11-2010, 02:59 PM
ColDax
Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 885

One reason the government is not collecting much in taxes, ( that is all government, state, local and federal ) is people aren't spending. As money changes hands, the government gets a cut. That is called 'The Velocity of Money'.

Take a look at the trend from 1992, to 2010:



whew...it's so disturbing....

As far as 'trickle down' goes. In 1987 when Reagan implemented what was 'supply side' economics with his tax cuts, the savings rate of Americans was 9%.
In 2003 it was less than 1%. Effectively, zero. It is now 4%.

There is no 'pent up demand' for supply side theory to work. Americans are tapped out. Their savings is tapped out. Their credit is tapped out. Consumerism will not be fueling the US economy for quite some time.

[Still a Democrat]

1. Do they all realize the package requires the general to reimburse SS for the holiday?

A lot of folks don't.

[TBF]

2. Like that will happen. nt

[iamtechus]

5. Yes but ..

Using money from the general fund is what we want to avoid. In fact we should maintain a total seperation of SS from the general. That is why SS has been so successful and as long as it is seperate, it can never be blamed for the deficit. It has nothing to do with the deficit and any claim that we need to starve SS to cure the deficit is pure republican bullshit.

[ljm2002]

9. That is the WORST part of the deal!

If SS is reimbursed from general funds, that will be the VERY FIRST TIME EVER that Social Security contributed to the deficit. Then the Republicans will shout from the rooftops that Social Security contributed $120B to the deficit, and the same time they will argue against a "tax increase" (i.e. letting the payroll tax holiday expire next year).

Once that dam is breached, it will eventually crumble.

That is the worst, most insidious provision in this deal. And it was put there by Republicans. Not surprisingly, since they hate Social Security and every other part of the New Deal. They don't want to pay back the money that was borrowed from Social Security funds to pursue empire, and they do want their Wall Street buddies to get their grubby paws on everyone's retirement savings.

[Enthusiast]

12. That will be used as an excuse to

privatize social security. Look how one sided the deficit commission's recommendations were presented in the media. CBS did a real hatchet job presenting only Simpson and Bowle's positions ignoring any evidence to the contrary. A SS funding holiday will most assuredly be used to justify cuts. It is clearly part of a long term DLC/Republican strategy.

[bullwinkle428]

13. There was ALWAYS supposed to be a firewall between the two -

that's the whole point!

[DCKit]

3. Seems you've found the motherlode of sane (R)s Poboy. n/t

[Poboy]

4. To be fair, this is a particular investment board, focusing

on precious metals. So, by virtue of the focus, these guys are 'awake' in general to the financial crimes. Some might call them paranoids though, given their choice of this investment vehicle. Thing is, most don't see it as an investment at all, but more a life raft or way to preserve what they have. Anyway, there IS a segment of the R's who are willing to think for themselves, and aren't captive to the republican line. I hope our people who do see what is going on, can at some point get together with these people before it is too late.

[Vinca]

6. They want to take away Medicare and give us a suicide pill?

And these are the sane ones?

[Poboy]

7. lol, yeah...I should have qualified 'to varying degrees', hehe

We should start basic with them. Just start with preserving and funding SS. We can work on the rest as we go.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[glitch]

10. So real conservatives do still exist. I did wonder. Thanks for posting.

They, like real liberals and real centrists, are hard to see through all the corporatists.

[Poboy]

15. This is the thing. They know the Tbaggers are idiots. They know

the repub. establishment are corporate stooges. They are as isolated as we are.

[alarimer]

11. Notice they hate big government unless they directly benefit.

So SS is okay as long as they can collect.
ALL conservatives are selfish fucking assholes.

[Poboy]

14. Actually not quite so. Some DO operate on a semi-greater good, and see the importance

of a rudimentary safety net. They just want it payed for.