Was anybody else troubled by the reaction to Mark Madoff's suicide?

[Mike 03]

Half the comments I read online said basically, "He was so greedy that he got what he deserved" and the other fifty percent said "It is so selfish to kill yourself, he did the wrong thing because he was so selfish."

As someone who has suffered from clinical depression, I am very sensitive to opinions about people who get depressed, and I tend to feel sad when people kill themselves. Mark Madoff had not been charged with any criminal offenses, and I have no knowledge of whether he was or was not guilty, other than the facts that he went to authorities when he learned his father had constructed a ponzi scheme. He and his children had been sued three days before he killed himself.

I am not a defender of criminals, but I feel terrible that this has happened, especially since there is not much evidence that Mark Madoff had any knowledge that his father was running a criminal enterprise.

For some reason this case just touches me. I feel bad for members of the Madoff family who were not involved in the criminal enterprise but have paid the price. Suicide is sad. And some of the gleeful comments I have seen (not on DU) so happy that this man killed himself chill me.

[coalition_unwilling]

1. As someone who had one parent commit suicide, I feel especially bad

for his surviving child (children?). So I know where you are coming from, I think. I had not noticed any particular glee coming from DU over this, but I have not been following this particular story too closely either.

[mentalsolstice]

13. I'm a survivor as well.

To suggest it was selfish and/or deserved is so hurtful. The best healing for survivors is to point them to the clinical reasons why a loved one would choose this option...with no blame on the person that committed suicide and the survivor.

[enlightenment]

2. Sentiments like those are increasingly common - not just on

DU and not just in regard to suicide. There seems to be a growing lack of empathy in society, manifested in many ways but often in these casual, cruel, and thoughtless remarks on everything from someone's physical appearance (Camilla and Charles are a recent example) to suicide.

What is particularly disturbing - even more than reading what someone writes or hearing them voice such things are the number of people who jump on the bandwagon after the remark is made. Laughing, joking, high-fiving. It is a modern-day version of the carnival atmosphere that used to accompany public executions, and it is vile.

[Nay]

21. Indeed they are, and it's the main reason I avoid my fellow citizens at every

available opportunity. They are crass, cruel, thoughtless, ignorant, and carnivorous. I have nothing in common with most of them except some DNA.

[2Design]

3. unfortunately the spin put on suicide is that it is selfish by people

who are psychologists and others who have studied it - but their are books out there from suicide intended people who failed and they give a very different perspective - it is mostly to get out of the pain they are feeling inside physically and mentally

It is a difficult to understand without walking in that person's shoes and any notes left behind really don't tell the story

[glinda]

4. I understand what you are saying. Recently I witnessed a verbal attack by several

people onto a woman on the internet who most likely has a "challenge or disability". The lack of compassion really and literally made me sick to my stomach. I do not understand the shortsightedness and cruelty some people are displaying at time.
Madoff's son's death also followed an attempt from his father to buy back a motorcycle and a dirt-bike? and perhaps these items might have been the memory trigger for his death.
No matter if his son was implicated or not, to hand in his father I am sure weighed on him.
It is understandable that you feel sad. You are compassionate. :>)

[AmandaMae]

5. Suicide is not selfish. Unless people have been severely depressed, they shouldn't pass judgement.

[BoneDaddy]

11. It is incredibly selfish and self absorbed

I have been clinicaly depressed in my life, and the idea that in ending my life, although reliving myself of my personal hell, I would put that incredible pain on others. I am not denying the pain of depression but I will also not deny that ending one's life doesn't cause tremendous agony on others. It aint always about YOU.

[Big Blue Marble]

30. We all do incredibly selfish things.

Why be so judgmental? I, too, lost a parent to suicide at a young age. And have lived with
the repercussions of that fact all my life. Never did I consider that my parent was selfish, just
darkly depressed, mentally ill and out of focus. My parent's decision was made from deep pain
and hopelessness that knew no options. And that is the tragedy.

[DaveinJapan]

37. Sounds as though you are able to think rationally despite your depression though.

That is not always the case with mental illness. To assume that suicide is selfish is assuming a lot unless you can get inside someone else's brain.

People suffering from schizophrenia have a high rate of suicide, would you consider their actions selfish? I think it hard to make such an assumption, since that disease includes severe levels of psychosis. I have a family member who suffers from it. When off her medication, she emails me bizarre stuff (later ignored or denied) such as her neighbors are digging up bodies from graveyards and eating them in order to freak her out. If she were to commit suicide (I sincerely hope NOT!), how could I assume she wasn't doing so simply to escape from the monsters (or perhaps she imagined they threatened her loved ones if she *didn't* go through with it. You just don't know.

Even beyond psychosis, having felt suicidal myself at a younger age, I know that I found myself in such a dark place that I didn't imagine my death would cause anyone any pain, but quite the opposite, I felt as though I'd be doing everyone a favor by relieving them of the burden of dealing with me. Was I feeling selfish at that point? I dunno, but I certainly wasn't in a mentally balanced enough state to rationally consider exactly how I'd be hurting my family or friends at that point.

[polly7]

42. Wonderful post, and I agree.

I'm sorry you went through this.

My Dad killed himself in September. I won't judge anyone who makes this decision, the pain and hopelessness they struggle with is far beyond anything I'm able to understand.

[DaveinJapan]

43. Oh, Polly, I'm so sorry to hear that sad news!

I started to open up here (all honest comments to be sure), but I held back on saying that my own Mother also killed herself (she and my Aunt who I mentioned were sisters, mental illness runs back very severely through some generations of my Mom's side of the family).

Not that it means I have any understanding of your situation, but survivors of Parents who commit suicide do understand a thing or two about how it feels. I don't want to continue this publicly, but if you'd like to talk I'd be happy to do so...just shoot me a mail if you want to. And either way, please take care of yourself! :(

[polly7]

45. I am so sorry about your Mom.

:hug:

(Thank you, I just might take you up on that ...... it's so hard, isn't it?)

We truly just don't know how desperate or hopeless anyone else feels, no matter who they are.

[emilyg]

6. Suicide is a sad tragedy. I will not gloat.

[WingDinger]

7. I wrote an OP asking that we not wish death on Cheney, makes us look bad, it was locked immed.

[Vickers]

8. My only concern was he did it with a toddler in the house. n/t

[JVS]

9. Unrec. Fuck that rich bastard.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ozymanithrax]

12. He was rich and not gay...

There is a very ugly anti-wealth current sometimes overwhelms other sentiments.

[On the Road]

16. That is True

People born into wealth have the same mix of characteristics as all of us. The American Revolution was a good thing. The French Revolution was not.

[socialist_n_TN]

23. I'm not going to gloat over a suicide.................

but IMO, a lot of these guys have brought it on themselves. When the rich are trying to kill us all, I can understand why people WOULD gloat about it. If the rich want sympathy and empathy when they endure tragedies, they need to SHOW some sympathy and empathy.

I guess my point is that I won't gloat about it, but I understand why if some do.

[Ozymanithrax]

26. If you say he brought it no himself, that is exactly what you are doing.

Use the same logic. on gays who commit suicide. Sounds absolutely disgusting.

[socialist_n_TN]

35. You don't choose to be gay............

You do choose to be an unempathetic, criminal, and soulless capitalist. And no I wasn't gloating at all. I don't know enough about Madoff to know whether I SHOULD gloat or not.

All I actually said is that I understand the MINDSET about gloating about some rich fucker that offs himself. I would probably be dancing a jig if the Koch brothers or Cheney killed themselves. Same as I would have if Hitler had killed himself. These people are KILLING US ALL! Slowly or quickly, dead is dead.

As I said in my original post, if you WANT empathy and sympathy, you propably should show the same traits. Otherwise, I doubt if you'll get much.

[stray cat]

33. If he were leaking secrets and being investigated, gay or poor DU would be sympathetic

The right and left have their own consuming hatred of those they blindlessly label enemies

[socialist_n_TN]

36. Capitalists ARE the enemy..............

Unless you're one of them, you should recognize that they ARE enemies of ALL the rest of us. People need to choose exactly whose side they're on. Yes, it's come down to that.

Edited to add a thought.

[catgirl]

14. Mark Madoff and his brother blew in their father

And then didn't speak to their parents again. I think they were victims, as well, and this is a very sad story. He couldn't
handle the truth and how his legacy was intertwined with his repulsive father.

[Hannah Bell]

15. in fact, we have no idea what was going on. he also owed his father $22 million.

maybe they turned in dear old dad to avoid the debt.

we have no clue, & the papers aren't going to tell use the truth.

about the purpose of madoff's supposed "scam" (in which some of the "victims" may not have been) or about his family situation.

i don't gloat over a suicide, but ordinary people kill themselves every day.

i don't see why i should shed a special tear for mark madoff when most people's suicides -- brought on #1 by money worries & the associated effects on family, etc. -- pass completely unremarked, & when the poor are scapegoated & denigrated daily by the rich, their media, & their middle-class acolytes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Absolutely, a suicide is ALWAYS tragic, for the

survivors.

Bernie and his family may be scum of the earth... and well Bernie is... but that does not mean I wish a man to lose a son to suicide.

But many folks have this idea that fathers and sons are the same.

[ellenfl]

18. i was saddened when i heard of his suicide.

i can imagine how he felt. i'm sorry that he apparently had no one he could ask for help.

ellen fl

[DainBramaged]

19. My impression is he had nothing to do with his father's scams

and it was out of grief, which the mouth-breathers will never understand in their cold hearts.

[snappyturtle]

20. Mark Madoff was a victim of his father's hand. I find that terribly sad. nt

[SoCalDem]

25. A child can be a victim at his father's hand, but once those ":boys" were adults

they participated in the scheme and profited from it..and would STILL be if the tide had not gone out & left them all standing there...naked..

I would have preferred that he LIVE, and TOLD how it all worked so that all the perpetrators could be brought to justice.

the shame here is that his wife knew he was depressed/ despondent, and she still went to Florida on vacation with their 4 yr old..and left him alone & in charge of the 2 yr old.. What if he had decided to take the baby with him? That's the one this I can feel good about regarding him..he did not harm the baby..(physically)

[snappyturtle]

34. As I understnad the situation Mark is not considered for any crime

in his father's business and that it was he, for whatever reason, reported his father to authorities.

[The Backlash Cometh]

22. I think that we grunts will never understand what drives the greed side of the

equation. In the end, if what bothered him was the unacceptable option of becoming one of us, well, I won't waste my time worrying about him.

[stray cat]

32. He and his brother turned in their father

How would you like to be persecuted and hated because of something your father did? Lots od his friends lost money because of this dad's action. How bad must ut have been since even in death people cheer the fact that he is dead and still malign hum. Ie posts of jump fucker

[The Backlash Cometh]

46. After what I have seen in matters like this one,

I'm not so sure that the sons didn't know. We will soon find out, since I believe they were part of the investigation.

[csziggy]

24. I feel sorry for all the members of the Madoff family

Because their values were so screwed up that the father (and maybe other family members) felt entitled to steal from other people.

I feel sorry for the son who killed himself because from account he saw his value as a human being more aligned with monetary worth rather than the joy he should have gotten from his wife and children. I feel sorry that he did not see that the years he could have spent watching his children grow up were much more valuable than anything else.

I am sorry that if he was suffering from depression he did not get the help he needed. But I wonder if he was panicking because of knowing that the investigations were not over and if he had something to hide.

[Generic Brad]

27. I'm troubled by news of any suicide or attempted suicide

Mark Madoff's situation is no exception.

[mainer]

28. I just felt immense pity and sadness for him

I don't know how involved he was with his father's misdeeds. I just know that, as a human being, it's a tragedy whenever another human being feels so hopeless that he'd take his own life.

[undeterred]

29. I heard that even his children are liable for debts incurred

by Bernie Madoff. It must be awful to grow up with somebody elses shame hanging over your head. Yes, I think the whole thing is very sad. I hate to say anyones life thrown away.

[tinymontgomery]

31. Well this is what Simon Garfunkel

had to say about about rich guys and dying:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz8VQ8C-_3E&feature=related

[JoseGaspar]

38. Nonsense...

People die every day... many people. People die from poverty, from war, from exploitation, from hunger... Very few if any are acknowledged here. To miss the equivalence of death is the first error. The claim that "every man's death diminishes me" is pure hypocrisy. It is provably untrue, at least from the standpoint of the attention that is lavished. We choose whose deaths we are touched by and those particular deaths tell a story.

You choose to see this story as a narrative on suicide and depression. Others see it as a narrative on social class: a political event. Now, why would such a narrative occur to people in 2010? Endless foreclosures might have something to do with it... or, endless unemployment. That the death of people we don't know may strike us symbolically is not a surprise. Neither should be the possibility that the symbolism may be very different depending on one's social situation and standing. Hating the rich is not proof of moral inferiority - it is proof of being preyed upon by the rich. That each person be judged individually may be a religious construction but it has little relevance and much less truth at the bottom of society. That is the second mistake.

Hate is not a "bad" emotion to be purged through enlightenment. On the contrary, it is a natural emotion that is born in the real world. To paraphrase Malcolm, to hate those who oppress you is not an indication of bitterness; it is a sign of "intelligence". When you are oppressed as a class, by a class, you tend not to make such fine distinctions. That does not make the sentiment "chilling". It would be chilling if it didn't exist in that way.

[Hawkowl]

39. +1 .nt

[petronius]

40. I'm fortunate that I've never had direct experience with suicide, but I've never understood

how calling it "selfish" or otherwise criticizing the dead (in specific or in general) could ever be anything other than hurtful. Are there ever any survivors who benefit from being told that?

As far as gloating, mocking, laughing, calling it deserved, or anything else - I find those comments unpleasant. Madoff's death doesn't mean any more or less to me than any other (and all those I never hear of), but it's another little blip of tragedy out there in the world and I have sympathy for his pain and his family's...

[Prophet 451]

41. A little

I'm afraid that when I read the news each morning, the reasons to be upset kind of roll together. So many things to be angry or sad about every day that it becomes difficult to pick one out. (Yes, I have MDD. Yes, I am getting treatment).

[eilen]

44. I am not certain it was suicide.

Question everything the media tells you.