If teachers' unions, not poverty, are to blame for failures in American public schools, why is it

[CTyankee]

that some of the BEST student scores are found in countries where the overwhelming percentage of teachers are in unions?

I look at scores in math and science (in particular) in the western European nations such as Scandinavia and Holland and I find much better student outcomes everywhere compared to the U.S.

What I also find is lower rates of poverty and malnutrition, coupled with higher pay/status for teachers and strong teachers' unions supported by parents and the teachers in those countries.

It is enraging to see RW media types get away with this complete distortion of the actual facts...and I am not a union member nor am I a teacher...

[montanto]

1. Gov doesn't want to look at the real problem. Scapegoats

are a dime a dozen. The bottom line is that failure is big business in education. These days its always about the money. Where there is failure, there is remediation, which funnels public ed money into private business. Mouthy union protected teachers get in the way while poverty stricken parents are mute.

[Recursion]

2. The bigger lie is that American schools in general are "failing"

We educate a much more poor, badly-fed, and badly-housed population than the rest of our industrial cohort; it's apples and oranges.

[marew]

6. And, as a retired school social worker,

sometimes emotionally and verbally abused. We had an emotionally handicapped little girl work so hard at school to to earn a scrunchy for her hair. The prizes were bought by the teacher with her own money, of course. She earned her prize and was so excited. The little one came to school the next day so sad and dejected. The teacher asked her where her scrunchy was. The little girl said her mom took it and was wearing it in her own hair. No wonder this little girl had problems.
Most school critics have no idea what heroes most teacher are, not a clue.

[bobbolink]

13. I hope that teacher got another "scrunchy", and made a place for that girl to keep it at school so

she could put it in her hair when she got there in the morning, and take it out and leave it safely at school at the end of the day, where she knew it would always be there for her.

No, that doesn't solve the problem, but it at least lets the girl know that someone sees the problem, and will do at least a little to overcome one small part of it.

In other words, a gesture which acknowledges what the kid is up against and gives her the message that others see it and care about her. That is much more important than the scrunchy itself, and becomes a way for her to feel protected in one small area of her life.

[CTyankee]

8. I agree with you and it is PRECISELY my point: poverty IS the problem.

But to hear these charter schools guys talk, it isn't about poverty, it's all on the unions.

They tell us that poverty is just an "excuse." Their argument falls of its own weight...

[Recursion]

11. And here I will draw flames by being more or less pro-charter

But to hear these charter schools guys talk, it isn't about poverty, it's all on the unions.

Well, that's what the big "chain" charters say, but that's still (thankfully) only a small fraction of charters nationwide. There are union charters, and even charters run by unions. When done right, it's about getting teachers out from under corrupt/incompetent/just plain stupid school system administrators.

[CTyankee]

15. Then my question is: how do we solve the problem of incompetent school

administrators?

The thing is that if RWingers really want to improve things they would set their aim on those people?

But they don't. It's all about the unions.

This, to me, makes it clear that this "movement" is about destroying the power of unions as a political force in this country.

[Pisces]

14. I am not disputing this, however, I am continually attacked on this board for suggesting

that there may be some valid points in "Waiting for Superman" for the poor, urban throwaway kid. Most schools are succeeding where parents are involved. THe bottom schools draw bring down
our ratings world wide. Therefore it seems to me that drastic measures may need to be taken in those particular areas.

Why is some teachers and pro union people opposed to helping out these people now, not with catchy phrases like end all poverty. Poverty ends with education. We are dealing with a double edged sword. Maybe it's the names that were attatched to some of these projects.

If you say the word charter you get crucified on this board. This is clearly a problem that is not going to be fixed by the usual suspects or the way we have been dealing with it.

[Hannah Bell]

19. Of course there are problems -- you think teachers don't know it?

The problems, however, are being misrepresented and the solutions being proposed are nothing of the sort. They're an attack on labor & a step toward privatization.

[blondeatlast]

17. Exactly. Our public schools do a damn big lot for a little. Bargains at 10 times

the price (and imagine a fully funded public school system... sigh...)

[DrDan]

3. distortion is a way of life with the R's

look how they handled Kerry's military career as opposed to junior's.

look how they challenged the patriotism of Max Cleland.

death panels

on and on and on

[Bigmack]

4. Because.. like much in the US today...

Up is Down. Black is White. Facts get in the way of an ideological world view.

[Doctor_J]

10. I am pretty sure that if a repuke couple looked out the window

and saw the streets, grass, and trees covered with ice, and Hannity on the radio told them that it was 90 degrees outside, they would head out in a bathing suit.

[RufusTFirefly]

5. You need to stay on message! Bad teachers and uppity unions are the problem!!

If you had been educated properly - that is, focusing all your energy on standardized tests instead of on useless things such as critical thinking - then you would be less likely to ask annoying questions like this.

[pampango]

7. Poverty is the main problem, but it is also true that some of the best student scores are from poor

countries in Asia and elsewhere. I'm not sure how unionized teachers are in various countries there.

In the US poverty places a much larger role in the poor performance of some students, but other countries seem to prove that the income of a family, neighborhood or area doesn't necessarily predetermine educational outcomes. There is a lot that we can learn from each other.

[Recursion]

12. China educates and tests its elite students in coastal cities...

... and then sweeps the remaining 500 million or so kids under the rug.

If we only showed test scores from Mountain View and Back Bay we'd look pretty good too.

[Hannah Bell]

21. yep. 10% of chinese students don't even complete the equivalent of a jr

high school education.

[Hannah Bell]

20. lol. no truer than it is in the US. Parents' income/class status correlates with student

performance in every country.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

9. Opposition to teachers' unions is like opposition to gay marriage

The righties never completely explain WHY these things are supposed to be "harmful."

Deep-down, the story with teachers' unions is that the righties hate ALL unions, and teachers are one of the few large occupational groups that is still organized.

[CTyankee]

16. Oh, absolutely. It's pure bullshit that they care about these kids.

They are cynical and cruel to be doing this, mostly to the kids who are being used as pawns in this struggle, but also to hardworking teachers....

[EFerrari]

18. We can't really keep blaming the right if it's Obama's policy. n/t