Scooter, street bike or street legal off-roader? I'm confused.

[tridim]

Well I've finally sold my project car and am in the market for an economical (good mpg) two wheeler.

I really like the Yamaha Vino 125, and have my eye trained on craigslist every day. However, since I'm going to have to get a motorcycle license anyway, I'm starting to look at small motorcycles as an option. They seem to be much more affordable than even used scooters these days. The cheapest Vino I've found is $2000. That seems to be the the lower limit, and it also seems very overpriced to me for a used scooter.

I've ridden a Honda CB750 before in college so I know a little about bikes, but this time I'm looking at 250's because I want to get at least 70mpg. What should I be looking at besides Nighthawks and the like? I like the idea of a no-nonsense off-roader converted to street legal just because I think dirt bikes look cool. ;) Are there any aspects of dual-use besides comfort? How difficult are conversions? I'm not planning on using the bike for much besides in-town errands and the like.

So I guess my questions boil down to:

1. Should I stick with a scooter? What are the benefits and drawbacks?
2. Are there any GREAT 250cc street bikes available that are super reliable and economical? Old or new?
3. Is a street legal conversion practical? What are the drawbacks? Which models are good? 4-stroke only.

Thanks.

[happyslug]

1. My local Bike shop has Honda 250 Rebel for $3800.

And I am looking at it to replace my 80cc Scooter (which is a little underpowered for the Mountains of Central Pennsylvania). The "real" difference between a Scooter and a Motorcycles, are in my opinion, are the following:

1. Most Scooters use continues Transmission, most Motorcycles a Manuel transmission, Both are efficient (The Continuous much more efficient then a convention Automatic Transmission). The big drawback for Continuous is no guts. If you want to pull out in a hurry, you can NOT downshift a Continuous transmission, like you can a Manual Transmission or what a conventional Automatic transmission does when you hit the gas. My problem is most time you do NOT need that acceleration except on the on ramps of Freeways (That are NOT backed up, as are most during Rush hour in urban areas). When it comes to a high mileage car a minor concern, but it is a concern.

2. With a Scooter you sit more upright then on a Motorcycle. I suspect this is the chief reason women tend to like Scooters more then men. Women have a lower center of Gravity then men, this is do to the location of Muscle mass in the Human body, men tend to have muscle in the upper chest, while women have the most powerful muscle in any human (The muscles to push the baby out while giving bight)(. Muscles is four times the weight as fat if you look at volume. Thus men tend to be top heavy, women bottom heavy. When is comes to bicycle (and motorcycles) men and sit in the seat hold onto the handlebars and his center of gravity is right over the bike, permitting him to move the bike with his body. WOmen's center of gravity on such a bike is up in the air at the rear of the bike up in the air. A Scooter will permit her to put that center of Gravity right over the Engine, combing her center of gravity with the Scooter's Center of Gravity (i.e. it's engine). Now this is less significant then on a Bicycle (Pedal-cycle) given the weight of the engine but it is a factor.

Notice I am going by the smaller Scooters, some of the bigger scooters are designed much more like Motorcycles (Except for the step through feature) and center of the Operator;s gravity gets to be less and less important). This design tend to make them more like a Motorcycle, but the step through feature tend to keep the Center of gravity of the Machine a little higher (i.e. right under the seat).

3. The step through feature of a Scooter. This is the reason people claim women like Scooters, women can wear dresses and NOT worry about people seeing more then they want them to see as they lift their legs over the seat of a Motorcycle. I suspect this reason sounds more reasonable to come men, then the fact women center of gravity is different. I suspect this is a non-reason, but often cited.

In my opinion the real key is that you tend to find scooters smaller then 250, but street legal motorcycle tend to start at that level (and this is more to do what people will carry in stock then what is truly available). Most bikes smaller then 250 tend to be off road only (Yes some exists but are rare). The Scooters tend to dominate the smaller then 250 cc area. probably because a lot of women like it chief feature of where is the center of Gravity. Since women are buying most of the Scooters, the Cycle Sellers tend to cater to them. At the same time most people buying mid size bikes (and large Bikes) tend to be males, and thus the bikes tend to more male oriented. Notice I am pointing out that the above are TRENDS not absolutes. For example I purchased a Scooter and I am Male (an exception to the above rule as to Scooters) but I did own a 250 cc Motorcycle (Following the male tendency).

Remember this buy want you want, you can listen to other people, but you only have to please one person that is yourself. The difference between a Scooter and a Motorcycle, 250 cc and above are the minor points I pointed out above, what you will want will overcome any advantage one way or another (this is assuming you want fuel economy, if you just want a more powerful bike, then a big bike is what you want, fuel economy be dammed).

[tridim]

2. Thanks for that response. The main reason I'm looking at motorcycles now..

is because I don't like automatics. I love to drive and since I'm in serious hypermilling mode now, I am barely able to "drive" my 5-speed car any more. Driving has become boring.

A motorcycle should solve that issue right away. :)

Really the only thing I like about scooters is that I can park on the sidewalk. Not sure if that's really something that will matter in the long run. I'll keep looking.

[Robb]

3. I don't know what state you're in (pic heavy)...

...but it's important because "street legal" has a different set of requirements from state to state. In Colorado, it's absurdly simple -- a short list like horn, light and turn signals -- and in other states it's quite difficult to get a dirt bike street legal.

Many manufacturers are making incredibly cool dual-sports (street/dirt) in the 250 range. My favorite, in no small part because I have one, is the Kawasaki Super Sherpa. Here's Mrs. Robb on it (I still ride it, even with my big rally bike in the stable):





...and a few shots with me on it, back when it still had the stock low front fender:




It's a blast to ride, electric start, front and rear disc brakes, gets up to freeway speeds no problem, can tackle any dirt riding you want to throw at it (I've taken mine on tight forest single-track) and gets about 78 mpg.

Others that are way cool and either street-legal off the floor:

The "replacement" for the Sherpa, Kawasaki's 250 KLX (street legal):


The 250 TE Husqvarna (street legal):


...and the new one (same model):


KTM's 250 4-stroke (street legal):


...And there are a bunch of kits for street-legalizing things, which aren't hard to put on, really. The nice thing about 250cc dirt bikes is they're light as hell (relatively), and you can put them anywhere. If you don't like where they end up, you can pick up the rear tire and scoot it over. A LOT harder to do that on the 640 rally bike. ;)

[tridim]

4. That's exactly what I'm looking for. I love them all!

Now for months and months of research. :)

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

5. Since you mentioned in-town errands

Be sure to research the availability/price/convenience of luggage. Side bags, racks, top case, etc. My bike has some that are fairly easy to put on, take off, and have handles to make them like suitcases or briefcases. They should be lockable, and removable only with a key.

I leave one of mine on the bike always, with tools, repair stuff, bungie cords, first aid kit, rain gear inside. The other holds lunch, computer, papers, etc, so I carry it into work. My top-case stays in the garage, unless I know I'll be carrying extra junk that needs to be protected.

Hey Robb, how are knobby tires on pavement? Any effect on handling? Wear?

Regards.

[Robb]

6. There's knobby, and then there's knobby...

...I run TKCs (considered a 50%-50% pavement/dirt tire). Like everything with a dual sport, it's a compromise, but mostly I'd probably appreciate a more aggressive tire in the dirt. On the pavement, wear's about at the same rate as my Scorps were (a better 90-10 pavement/dirt tire); I wouldn't scrape pegs in the rain with the TKCs, but then again I wouldn't anyhow. ;)

Seconded on the luggage. There are a million "aftermarket" solutions, just make sure there's one you like for your bike.

On edit: found a picture of the KTM when the Scorps were on it (just before I bought it, actually); much more pavement-oriented tire, but good for a little dirt now and then.

...Versus the TKCs:

[tridim]

7. BTW, does the term "thumper" define all single cylinder bikes?

I notice bikes like the Buell Blast are referred to as thumpers, but dual-sports are not. What's the difference? I'm guessing "thumper" is just a marketing term for the kids?

Also, how loud are bikes like the Super Sherpa? Should I assume that all dual-use bikes are heavily muffled stock? I'm not really interested in bikes that are as loud as a Harley or as piercing as a 2-stroke moto-x. Are there vibration issues with these bikes?

[Robb]

8. Thumper=single cylinder

I call my bikes thumpers. :shrug:

On the noise factor, most smaller 4-strokes come off the floor pretty quiet; the Sherpa is super quiet. As in I've snuck up on wildlife with it before, notably on one ride mama skunk and four little babies in line. :) I seem to recall the USFS used them in some places for trail maintenance, with a chainsaw/polaski rack on the back. :D

Thumpers vibrate more than twins. Small thumpers don't vibrate much at all; my 640 vibrates quite a bit, but that's part of its charm. The Sherpa barely at all. 250s aren't big engines, and don't have big cylinders slamming around. There's a vibration, but nothing you'd be bothered with at that size.

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. Scooters are motorcycles.

I've known many people who don't treat scooters with the respect they deserve. "I mean what could go wrong? It's only a scooter."

Personally, given the choices between various motorcycles, I choose:
a) ones that give adequate acceleration to get away from traffic congestion.
b) ones that have adequate brakes for the same reason
c) tires of adequate diameter to roll over bumps instead of crashing into them
d) crisp handling but enough weight (and appropriate steering geometry) to still have good linear stability.
e) enough load carrying capacity that handling/steering/acceleration are still adequate when carrying the occasional passenger.

For all those reasons, I would choose a motorcycle with normal size tires, large brakes and a manual transmission. A 250cc street bike would be great. Kawasaki used to make a 250 ninja that was good. I think honda makes a 250 cruiser too.

[tridim]

10. I've pretty much bailed on the scooter thing..

And am now searching for a nice, used KLR250, KLX250 or CRF230L.

Unfortunately I'm discovering that used dual-sports are very hard to come by. I've been checking craigslist at least three times a day. They're even rare to find new in showrooms.

I almost pulled the trigger on a 2002 Super Sherpa for $1850, but it had bad plastic (I told the guy if he couldn't sell it that I'd be interested at $1600). Patience, patience, patience. It's almost winter anyway. :)

[Robb]

11. Must've been pretty bad plastic ;-)

$1850 isn't bad for a 2002. $1600 would be a steal. :D

[tridim]

12. It was scratched and faded to a drab yellowish green. Nasty.

Oh well, in the past week I've fallen in love with the 2000-2004 KLR250's and the 2006-2009 KLX250's. I visited the showroom today to verify that I fit on the KLX, I can almost flat foot it with my long legs. I'm also going to check out the 2009 Sherpa's when they arrive at the dealers.

I'm guessing used bikes get real cheap in the dead of winter.

This is the KLR I'm searching for:

[Robb]

13. Bargains aboud in winter

...Here's a KLR250 vs Sherpa review: http://www.epinions.com/review/2000_Kawasaki_KLR250/content_63677959812

FWIW, I would think the lack of electric start on the KLR is the deal-breaker, which was "fixed" with the KLX. Great bikes, all.

[tridim]

14. My new baby..

A really nice, garaged 2000 Super Sherpa w/ bonus luggage rack. I think I really lucked out on this one. I've only seen two listed since I've been looking, and the other one was junk compared to this one.



The seller is a motorcycle nut, so I think it was well maintained. He had another 2003 Sherpa and 5 or 6 other sport bikes in his garage.

It'll be in my garage by Monday. :)

[Robb]

15. Nice!

PM me if you have any Sherpa questions as you go forward, I've been around the block with mine. :toast:

[tridim]

16. I found the yahoo group the other day, learned a lot there.

I also saw you on advrider. :)

It's already rejetted for altitude, so I'm good there. The only issue it has is the cold-bloodedness, but I hear that's pretty much an unavoidable "charm" of Sherpas.

Actually my first concern is taking the written test and then the safety course, although I might wait until spring for that. I also need to get a better helmet, a jacket, and figure out what I want to do for luggage. Then 80/20 tires. So much to do, but at least I have all winter to figure it out.