I'm thinking about getting a scooter.

[Longhorn]

I teach at a community college campus ten miles down a four-lane U.S. highway or 17 miles by winding and hilly back roads. A couple of years ago, I got an electric bike and rode the 17-mile route but it took me 90 minutes one way and I kept having various electrical problems. The route I would take to and from work has a speed limit of 45.

I drive a 2001 Saleen Mustang that gets 19 mpg at the last check. I'd really like to do my part for the environment and drive something more fuel efficient. It would help to save a little money, too, since I have to use premium in the Saleen -- more than $60 to fill up!

I'm a 53-year old female with no experience riding anything bigger than a bicycle. I'm really interested in the Piaggio MP3 250: http://www.piaggiousa.com/pScooters/MP3.cfm It runs a bit over $7000 and gets about 65 mpg. It's supposed to be more stable, even if you don't lean into curves (something I know will take some getting used to) and even on wet pavement.

My husband is worried about the safety but I feel like I would be safer on a scooter than I was on my bike (definitely no bike lanes out here!) Even though this scooter can go highway speeds, I plan to choose back roads and neighborhood routes and avoid freeways and highways. I have no desire to go faster than 45 mph! We don't get a lot of rain in Central Texas but I'll probably take my car on days that it's raining. I'll also keep a rainsuit at school in case it starts after I get there. We don't get very cold weather here, either, but I still have my bicycle weather gear and it should only take me about 20 minutes or less to get to work. And, of course, I'll still have my car if I wimp out. ;)

What do y'all think? Am I crazy? :silly:

[matcom]

1. crazy? not at all BUT....

take the MSF riders course.

http://www.msf-usa.org/

Not only will you get your license (something you will most likely need for a 250 or larger, depending on your state) but you will learn VALUABLE lessons.

My suggestion is to take the course BEFORE you purchase anything to make sure you can handle things.

Oh and take a look at the Honda Reflex. I only say that because I owned one before upgrading and LOVED it.

good luck!

[Longhorn]

3. I'll definitely take the course!

I took a bicycle course when I first started riding my bike in traffic. I'm nothing if not thorough when it comes to trying to be safe!
:)

I'll look into the Reflex. Thanks! :hi:

[ThomWV]

2. Get a full sized motorcycle (small one) and you will be safer

You can buy a full sized motorcycle for less money and get nearly the same fuel economy. In the deal you will most likely get larger diameter wheels, much better handeling, better brakes, and most important the ability to both keep up with traffic and get away from it when necessary. Scooters have improved immensely in the last decade or two, but they are still inherently less safe than a full sized bike.

Oh, on that steering thing - you always and only steer by leaning, no matter if you realize it at all. Wet roads make little to no difference at normal and legal speeds. Gravel on the roads, wet leaves, sand, and potholes are the things to worry about, not just the fact that they are wet. Whoops, one thing - when it first starts raining keep away from the center of the lane and be particularly careful on the lee side of dips.

[Longhorn]

4. Would a motorcycle be safer than the Piaggio?

And I know I need to learn to lean -- I probably leaned some on my bike -- but I also don't think very much leaning will come naturally to me. I read a review of the Piaggio where the author said that it is the perfect bike for beginners because it does some of the work for the rider. Not being a rider, I'm not sure I understood all of it but he said that you don't have to work so hard to find the "sweet spot."

Thanks for the advice! :hi:

[Robb]

5. I'm siding with ThomWV here

...When you take the MSF course, you'll do it on "little" (they'll seem big if you've never been on anything) 250cc motorbikes.

I advise everyone to buy a 250 for their first bike. I still have mine (a Kawasaki Sherpa), and I love it for many reasons, despite my ongoing attraction bigger bikes. I bought the Sherpa marginally used, so I will always be able to sell it for what I paid, which makes me feel smug. And there's a lot to be said for front and rear disc brakes. My wife and I still load it up for long trips.

Scooters have their place, but you're describing more of a motorbike use IMO. But I'm biased, take the course; often there are several different bikes provided, and you get to try out a few makes for giggles. Don't buy anything until you're done with three days in the parking lot with a teacher. :)

Leaning: Never heard of a "sweet spot," in my world that's any position you're not falling in. :D

[Longhorn]

6. I don't know the difference between a scooter, motorbike, and motorcycle.

What I really would like to do is ride my bicycle but it's just not feasible -- I'm not strong enough for the hills, it takes too long to get to and from work, and it's not safe -- no one is really expecting to see cyclists on these winding roads where there are no bike lanes or shoulders. As I mentioned in my OP, I tried to make an electric bike work but it just didn't have enough power for a 17-mile trip over these hills without problems and I ended up stuck riding a very heavy bike with limited gearing when the electrical system cut out a few times.

So to me, a scooter is the next best thing. I feel I will be safer if I can take the lane at traffic speeds, which would be 35 to 40 mph or less. I want good gas mileage and the three-wheeled Piaggio MP3 250 boasts that it has excellent stability in difficult road conditions and is supposed to be good for novice riders.

I have no "need for speed" and I don't care how ridiculous I look -- I have a pretty cool car if I need to make a statement. ;) I intend to use the scooter strictly for commuting and possibly local errands. I would not be taking it on the highway or freeway but would take alternate neighborhood streets or frontage roads. I would drive my car for other transportation needs.

By the way, I will definitely take the motorcycle course! Thanks! :hi:

[ThomWV]

7. Robb gives you some very good advice

Take the course for the experience on taller bikes if nothing else.

When I use the word 'sweet spot' talking about bikes I am referring to the speed or RPM at which the bike runs the smoothest and is most stable. This may surprise you but most of that comes from sound of the bike and self canceling vibrations. There will be some RPM range in top gear (usually) where the bike simply rides best. For many full sized bikes* that happens somewhere around legal highway speeds. Imagine that. As I've said before, for my wife's Sportster that means somewhere around 55 MPH but it goes away at about 70 MPH. At 55 its smooth and quite, at 70 it is loud and vibrates and the wind starts beating on you. So I call 55 the sweet spot. Now here is the thing - as the bike gets smaller the speed at which it is nicest to ride gets lower. By the time you get below about 250cc there is no speed at which they run smooth, quite, and clean - they are always working their hearts out to move you along.

Now I want to tell you one thing about motorcycle steering. The thing is what causes a bike to tend to go straight rather than to turn. If the bike is sitting upright on flat ground you can easily measure the angle of the front fork's neck relative to vertical. On most motorcycles that angle will be somewhere around 30~35 degrees. That angle is refereed to as the bike's "rake" and you might notice that chopper guys often build bikes with lots of it - many of them have very long front ends that lean out at an extreme angle. Scooters, on the other hand, are built with neck rake more like unicycles (which of course have no neck or rake at all), with the front end being very much upright. The more neck rake you have the more stable the bike will be as it moves faster and the more the front end will flop around at low speed. By low speed I mean very low speed and of course they really don't flop around, you just have to have tighter control over them when moving slow - by the time they are moving 10 or 15 miles per hour, which is to say by the time the clutch is fully engages in 1st gear, they are much more stable than standard bikes. There is a second measurement that contributes to a bike's stability too, its called trail. If you were to extend a line directly through the center of the steering neck bearings until it hit the ground and them measure from that point to where a vertical line passing through the center of the front axle hit the ground you would have measured the trail. Its usually just a couple of inches. Trail also contributes to stability at speed but more importantly it makes a bike turn easier at low speed. Its the trail that makes the chopper flop around at low speed but the rake makes up for it quickly as you get moving faster. Now consider a scooter. They generally have very little rake and lots of trail. That makes them handel more like grocery carts than motorcycles at lowe speed but unfortunately they don't have the rake to make up for it as speed increases. They will go straight OK but they will also turn very easily, particularly at low speeds. This can be handy if you spend all of your time in heavy traffic (downtown DC or New York) but certainly won't work to your advantage anywhere in Montana or Kansas and not much of Florida or California either. Scooters are urban vehicles at their heart.

[Longhorn]

8. Thanks for the excellent explanation!

I'll be interested in finding out what the rake and trail are for the model I'm considering, which is 250 cc. An urban vehicle is exactly what I want. :hi:

[Longhorn]

9. I'm interested in what y'all think about this article:

http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/two-wheels-good-three-wheels-better-17921.html

It's a review of the model I'm going to look at today. As much as I appreciate all of your advice, no one has actually addressed this particular model, which is not your typical scooter. Thanks! :hi:

[ThomWV]

10. I read the article, went to their web site too

I could not find the video on the front suspension mentioned in the Article, I'd like to see it.

I would not buy one of the things and I would try to talk anyone who planned on getting one out of it. I say that for a couple of reasons. First is the price. For what one of the small ones cost you could buy two Honda Rebels, for the price of a large one you could buy a Harley Davidson 1200 Sportster and get a set of saddle bags and riding boots tossed in by the dealer. So that's one thing, they are way way expensive and you will not recapture that sort of money in fuel economy.

The second thing is really a lot more important and I am only going to say this based on the information provided in the article, like I said, I didn't find any better information on it. The front suspension on that thing is complicated. Its a multi-link system (exclusive of the travel and dampening parts) with various compensating bars and such to simulate lean from what I was able to gleen. In comparison a standard bike has one shaft contained by two generally tapered bearings. So with a standard bike as you get wear in the front end the steering becomes too light but the fix is simply tightening a nut at the top. With one of these things as you get wear you will get changing steering and lean simulating geometry. In other words as the simple front end of a standard bikes gets normal wear you still steer it the same by leaning, but with one of these things as the front end wears the steering will change (and you can bet not for the better) and I have serious doubts about its initial or continued ability to simulate or allow for leaning. Maybe its not a vaid concern, but it would still weigh heavily on my mind.

[doc03]

21. I have seen the MP3 and it is an interesting concept.

I saw a test in one of the motorcycle magazines and the writer was very impressed with the handling. From what I understand it leans just the same as any bike and the writer said with the two tires you have a larger footprint and better traction. When you are coming to a stop and after you reach a certain speed you can push button and the front suspension locks you don't even need to put your feet down. Then when you start moving again the suspension automatically unlocks and it rides just like a regular bike. Like I say they are interesting but I always think you have less problems just keeping it simple. The more automatic stuff you have the more things there are to break. I have driven cars for 45 years and never had window crank break, until my last car it had power windows and I changed 4 window crank motors before I got rid of it.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

11. Besides being personally offended by the article

and its unexplained reference to "BMW's funky fronts", I agree with most of ThomWV's view. The suspension linkage and hydraulics that make the front end "leanable" will be wonderful, until they don't work. Then the complexity will likely stymie any motorcycle mechanic except the dealer, with factory training and diagnostic equipment. A small motorcycle is much simpler. You have to push a button to tell the thing whether you're going to put your feet down at a stop? Recipe for embarassment.

I wonder if the article was referring to BMW's Earles leading link fork, or the two front wheels of BMW's Isetta car, or the telelever front end on some newer models. "Funky", indeed. Or it could have meant BMW's short-lived venture into the motorscooter market with their C1 model which had a roof in addition to a windshield.

(In case you can't tell, I ride a BMW. :) )
:hi:

You're getting a bunch of opinions here. But the only one you need to heed is the recommendation for the safety class. Buy any bike you want, and ride safe. You'll like whatever you get. That trike will certainly draw some attention on the road.

[guitar man]

12. I agree with Thom and Just A Bozo

It's overpriced and way complicated. I have a feeling the novelty of the 3 wheel design might make them sell at that price, but I certainly wouldn't pay it.

Now, if I may offer some advice about power and the "need for speed." You may only ever ride in 45 mph speed limit traffic, but, trust me, you will find out that extra torque comes in very handy in getting out of sticky situations. For example, this morning I was on a stretch of 2 lane coming into work, approaching a traffic light. Light turns yellow and right as I let off the throttle to prepare to stop, I hear the driver in the car on my ass step on the gas to blow through the light. A quick look in the mirror and I saw the jackass on his cell phone, and his foot was on or near the floor and accelerating rapidly!

Blessed lady of acceleration, don't fail me now! :wow:

I had two choices, get on it and head through the light on the yellow or get run over by an inconsiderate asshole on a mission that apparently included running over me if I got in his way. So I dropped a gear and punched it, and the Sporty didn't dissappoint :evilgrin:

The point I'm trying to make is, I was running about 45 in a 45 zone when I found myself in the situation. Had I been riding a scooter that tops out at 50-55mph max, I would have been hurting badly for the power I needed to stay out of harm's way. Having some "headroom" in your power band is never a bad idea. Even on 250cc motorcycle I could have gotten out of that jam, sure, I would have had to get a lot more aggressive with the downshifting and throttle than I did on my Sportster, but, had I been on a 125cc scooter I would have been faced with the choice of getting run over or taking it into the ditch, which I would have done.

I'd say take the MSF course first and see if you like riding the 250cc class regular motorcycles first.Then, if you really prefer a scooter over a motorcycle, because of the auto transmission or whatever, please just make sure and get one with the biggest wheels and brakes you can find and don't skimp on the power.

good luck! :hi:

[HamstersFromHell]

13. Let me take a shot at this...

As a former dealership mechanic with 30+ years experience, in one word...parts.

It's Italian, ala Ducati and others.

If it breaks (and it will), expect to have a long wait for parts in a lot of cases.

Dealers cannot afford to carry everything for all the makes and models they sell and service. They stock what's hot selling items, and rely on the brand's support network to fill in with timely parts shipments. The Italians fail miserably at this compared to the Japanese or Harley. If your Japanese bike breaks and the dealer doesn't have it, they can get it usually within a week - compared to the typical 2-3 week wait they had in the late 70's or early 80's.

Getting Ducati parts not in dealer stock is typically a one month or more affair. Expect Piaggio to be the same if not worse. If you lived in Europe, it might be a sound choice. as Piaggios (a Vespa by any other name) are common as rocks there. In Texas, it's not such a good idea.

[Longhorn]

14. You all have been a great help to me!

I've decided against the Piaggio because your points about being over-priced and expensive to repair and maintain make a lot of sense. Unfortunately, although my husband agrees, the only reason he was still onboard with the idea of me getting a scooter was because he thought the Piaggio would be safer. Now he's against me getting any scooter.

So for now, I'm going to inflate my tires and slow down and consolidate or eliminate trips but continue to drive the Saleen. Oh, poor, poor me. ;)

Thank you so much! I learned a lot from your replies! :hi:

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

15. Sounds like we were the Anti-Help.

:(

I doubt if the three-wheeler would be more or less safe than the two-wheelers. Either one, you have to watch for traffic, and all that other safety stuff.

A 250cc motorcycle might be a little safer than any scooter, just because of the bigger wheels and bigger fork angle, as mentioned in some of the other posts.

Now you're stuck driving a nice Mustang. Oh, the humanity! :cry:

:hi:

[Longhorn]

16. Oh, no, y'all were a great help!

There may still be a scooter or motorcycle in my future but it will be a purchase based on sound advice.

Also, though my husband may not support me getting one right now, he wouldn't oppose it if I decided to go forward. But I spent a lot of money on bicycle paraphernalia that I no longer use and I want to be certain that I would really use the scooter.

For now, I'm going on vacation which involves planes, trains, and automobiles. :hi:

[happyslug]

17. I have been looking at the MP3 250

I had a 250 off-on road bike in the 1970s and took me anywhere I wanted to go. The only bad part was its top speed was around 70mph on the flats, it would slow down on steep hills, but took them at a good pace. I have been riding a 80cc motor scooter that last year or so. It gets great mileage (90mpg plus) but its top speed is about 45 mph (On a slight downhill grade, 40 on the flats). My 80cc has one big problem, it can go up 12-15% grades at about 25 mph, but if the grade is higher then that it tends to stop moving unless I get off of it and walk it up the rest of the hill. Now I live in the Mountains of Appalachian and most of the roads have slopes of less than 15% so the top speed is a minor problem, the only time I have a problem is on certain roads that tend to up straight up a hillsides (Most roads avoid that because the Truckers don't like those steep grades, but you do get them on some neighborhood streets in my area). A 250 would have no problem climbing that hills.

Now you can opt for a bigger bike, but unless you have some desire to go over 70 mph, why bother, the 250 should be big enough.

By the way I rode by 80 cc between Johnstown Pa and Pittsburgh PA (About 75 miles apart) almost every weekend till January (When the Snow fell AND by Jeep was finally inspected, it took three weeks to get the parts to fix the Jeep up). If you dress for the weather it was NOT a problem (I wore a heavy down jacket and a insulated bid overall as protection against the rain. I was (and am) the slowest thing on the road. I have no problem on four lane highways, the drivers see me and get around me. I have had some problem on the construction zones on US 22 (Pennsylvania is in the process of upgrading it from a two lane highway, with occasional passing lanes to a true four lane highway). In the areas of US 22 where it is two lanes I have had cars honk they horns at me, flash their lights and other indications they wanted me to go faster. Besides that no problem. As to heavy trucks, I notice my 80 cc can be bucked around by the wind as we pass each other on the two lane sections of US 22 (i.e. the truck and I are going in OPPOSITE DIRECTIONS) but I have no such problem on the four lane sections of US 22, the four lanes are wide enough for the wind turbulence to die down by the time it hits me.

I believe I need a little bigger bike (i.e. I KNOW I should have a bigger bike, but don't want to admit it). The 80 cc is a good bike, but slow given the speed of today's highway. A 250 would provide more speed and more weight to perform better on highways with faster vehicles.

Note on back roads, check them out carefully, sometime it is better to be on a major road for their are designed for cars operating as speeds in excess of 45 mph. I avoid the Freeways with my 80cc, but a 250 can operate on freeways as long as you can do 50 mph and a 250 can easily do that with one rider, as I pointed out my 80 cc can do 45 but that is pushing it to the max. A 250 is more than large enough for highway use, you may be the slowest vehicle on the road, but that does NOT mean you are a traffic hazard.

[matcom]

18. well you certainly ARE a traffic hazard on only 80cc's

:wow:

also, it isn't just about not having to push a bike UP a steep hill... (again :wow: )

80cc's don't give you the power to get out of/around a jam when you need it. it isn't just about top speed. it's about acceleration when you need it.

[happyslug]

19. I have found acceleration overrated as a way to get out of trouble.

The better solution is just to slow down so you see the trouble before you get into it. In that regard the 80cc is more than sufficient. I have NEVER had a situation where more speed would have saved me from an accident. More power is an excuse pushed by people who want to sell and ride more powerful bikes. If they will step back and LOOK AT THE SITUATION AS A WHOLE, they will see the problem is speed NOT the lack of speed.

Now I do NOT take my 80cc on the interstates US 22 in Pennsylvania is NOT an interstate it is (or will be) a four lane highway with intersections governed by Traffic Lights. As such you just can NOT go that fast (Even when the lights are tens of miles apart which is common in my area of Pennsylvania). As such the 80cc is good enough, if I avoid the interstates and other "high speed" highways built only for cars.

As I wrote in my thread above, the only time I had to walk my bike was on a residential street. The Highways do NOT have the steep slope where I have to walk my bike. In fact the Interstate highway system specifications are for slopes of no more then 5% without special permission from the Federal Government and then it is restricted to 6-7 %. My 80cc can handle 15%, it is slope greater then 15 that I have a problem with.

As to what is 15%, remember that means 15 feet up over 100 feet in length. Such steepness is rare except on neighborhood streets. Even in the old days of horse drawn wagons the roads were kept below 10% if possible (You would have to change horses even at a 10% grade when the horse reached the top) thus it is rare even in the mountains to have grades in excess of 15%.

[doc03]

20. Being a scooter owner myself I think a scooter would be a

great idea. I don't buy this crap that a (real) motorcycle is safer than a scooter. Now when you are talking the little Vespas I agree. If you get a larger scooter 250cc and up I don't think so. The MP3 is interesting but I think over-priced. You can get a Suzuki 400cc scooter for under $6000 out the door. With the 400 you can keep up with any traffic easy. On many occasions I have followed the so called (real) full sized bikes on twisty roads and had no problems keeping up. The larger what they call Maxi-scooters have just as long a wheelbase as or longer than some (real) motorcycles. On the scooter you just twist the grip and go no shifting, no worrying about the clutch stalling it out. Think about it how many people today still have a stick in their car? As far as the leaning, you don't realize it but you ride a bicycle the same way. I bought my scooter last summer and rode it home from the store about 10 miles on twisty hilly roads and had no problem. The last time I rode a motorcycle was a Honda Dream over 40 years ago. What's nice about the maxi-scooter they are practical, they come with a trunk that will easily carry 4 or 5 full plastic grocery bags or what ever. I like the Suzuki Burgman 400 and 650, Honda Silver Wing a 600cc bike, and Yamaha makes a Majesty 400cc and they came out with what they call a T-max this year I think it is a 600 or 650cc.
I average better than 65 MPG on my Suzuki and can get 75 MPG with highway driving. The top speed is about 90-95 MPH.

[Longhorn]

22. I appreciate your input,

especially since you've checked into the MP3.

I'm afraid the whole idea is on hold right now. I think since I'm battling cancer, my husband has a heightened sense of worry where I'm concerned -- not that he didn't care before. ;)

By the way, I'm one who does drive a stick! :hi: