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So, anyone getting sick of Nicolas Sarkozy's election being hailed as the death of socialism?

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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 11:34 AM
Original message
So, anyone getting sick of Nicolas Sarkozy's election being hailed as the death of socialism?
Articles like this that seem to say that one lost election (though an important one) somehow indicates that socialism has finally gone belly up, instead of having lost a battle. Of course the articles never seem to point out that the final vote was 53% to 47%, not exactly what I would call a resounding defeat.
No doubt after experiencing a term of Sarkozy attempting to remove workers protection long enjoyed by the French, we could easily see a shift of a mere 4% back. His public address included what I felt was a chilling sentence: 'I will rehabilitate work, authority, morality, respect, merit!'.

Merit? Ye-gads. That is never a good sign in my book when the right starts arguing about merit in economic policy. One short hop to the poor are stupid and lazy and deserve what they get.

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malta blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. I heard that line this morning and I agree, it is quite chilling.
I was locked out of the news cycle for the past five days, so I have a lot of catching up to do, but I was very disappointed to see that Sarkozy had won.
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. SUUUURRRE. (insert raspberry noise here)
Those idiots can't seem to remember that Jean-Marie Le Pen polled VERY high a while back, and NOBODY said "The French are going NAZI" did they?

One point on a graph does not equal a "trend." The French will wake up the first time Sarkozy screws with healthcare or the work week. He'll be lucky to get out of office in one piece.

There hasn't been a successful Right Wing French high President since de Galle: there's a REASON for that.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. I really am wondering what the French were thinking considering
they have some really good social programs that could be diluted or eliminated if the conservatives gain too much power.
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. tick, tick, tick
Hear that? It's the timer counting down to the election that gets called 2 nanoseconds after Sarkozy tries to roll back bennies.

He will stick to his anti-immigrant path until it runs out and he's a footnote.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. My first thought was
Haven't the French been watching the disintegration of our right-wing fascist, bush?

I guess not.

My next thought was "welcome to the '08 repuke talking points." Just as Sarkozy hit on the meme of French Society being polluted by "immigrants", the repukes will be talking ad-nauseum about the "illegals" overrunning our otherwise perfect American Culture. :puke:

Unfortunately for our friends from the right-wing of the business party, they overlook the fact that Sarkozy has been running for 5 years and Segolene Royal only for a few months. The pukes have no such advantage according to the latest Newsweek poll:

"Obama beats the leading Republicans by larger margins than any other Democrat: besting Giuliani 50 to 43 percent, among registered voters; beating McCain 52 to 39 percent, and defeating Romney 58 percent to 29 percent.

Like Obama, Edwards defeats the Republicans by larger margins than Clinton does: the former Democratic vice-presidential nominee outdistances Giuliani by six points, McCain by 10 and Romney by 37, the largest lead in any of the head-to-head matchups. Meanwhile, Sen. Clinton wins 49 percent to 46 percent against Giuliani, well within the poll’s margin of error; 50 to 44 against McCain; and 57 to 35 against Romney."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18505030/site/newsweek/

That was NEVER the case in France, Royal was working from behind the whole way.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-07-07 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. To be honest, Fance was never Socialist in the first place.
France's economic system is a kind of cartelized capitalism mixed in with labor union syndicalism and powerful special interests.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-08-07 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
7. The French seem to be "a little tense" over the election already.
Into the second night of rioting and Sarkozy is already trying to mollify the citizens. I don't know how "conservative" he really is, but it looks like he is not going to be allowed to make any concessions to the corporate overlords that put him in.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/05/08/france.postelection.ap/">Report for American consumption

France's defeated Socialists called for an end to post-election violence Tuesday after anti-Sarkozy protestors took to the streets for a second night, leaving cars burned and store windows smashed in Paris as well as unrest elsewhere.

While the unrest has been small-scale, it sent a message to Nicolas Sarkozy: He may have won the presidency, but he hasn't won over the many French who consider him -- and his free-market reforms and tough line on crime and immigration -- frighteningly brutal.

One police officer was lightly injured and eight cars and two scooters were torched, according to the Paris police headquarters. Police officials said the perpetrators appeared to be anarchists and far leftists.

In Nantes in western France, hundreds gathered again Monday night, with a few dozen hurling beer bottles and other projectiles at police. Police responded with tear gas and arrested several people. Public buildings were also damaged and minor incidents were also reported in Toulouse in southern France.


http://euronews.net/index.php?page=info&article=421021&lng=1">Euronews has a different take


There has been a second night of unrest in France following the presidential election. Demonstrations against the victory of conservative Nicolas Sarkozy have taken place in numerous cities, resulting in clashes and arson attacks. Across the country there have been reports of windows being smashed and vandalism - targets include telephone boxes and bus shelters.

Riot police have been out in force since the announcement of Sarkozy's win on Sunday. The head of the Socialist party, the husband of the losing candidate Segolene Royal, has appealed for calm. In the first night of violence some 600 people were arrested, around700 vehicles were set on fire and at least 80 police officers were injured.


http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1264559,00.html">Sky news

Trouble On The Streets

Riot police in Paris have fired tear gas into crowds which gathered after Nicolas Sarkozy's election victory. The unrest happened at the Place de la Bastille, a popular hub for demonstrations and strikes. Thousands of police had been deployed.

There have been further violent protests in France following the election of Nicolas Sarkozy as the country's new president.

Between 300 and 400 youths chanting anti-Sarkozy slogans smashed shop windows and burnt at least two scooters at the Place de la Bastille in the centre of Paris.

Police arrested 592 people overnight between Sunday and Monday after demonstrators set fire to 730 cars and injured 78 policemen in numerous incidents.

Meanwhile, Mr Sarkozy has taken a few days off before being sworn in on May 16.


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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-08-07 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. I want to know how the votes were counted
When's the last time you heard of an 85% turnout that favored the right wing candidate?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-09-07 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. oh good grief
I mean ... oh good grief.

In the first round, in April, turnout was 85%:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_presidential_election%2C_2007

You'd think that if anybody actually in France had seen a problem, we'd have heard about it.


This is a report by a delegation of the Canadian Parliament that observed the election period in France in 2002.
http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/InterParl/Associations/France/May2002/page01-e.htm
I especially like the final observation here:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/InterParl/Associations/France/May2002/Page02-e.htm
In the evening, the delegation, accompanied by Minister-Councillor Terrence Lonergan, attended an event at the Bataclan, a small theatre on Rue Voltaire in the east end of Paris, attended by a cross-section of French intellectuals, journalists and politicians gathered together for a three‑hour debate organized by the weekly Marianne and its director, Jean‑François Kahn, on the theme: Why Le Pen? And now, what Republic?

... The debate ended with an animated exchange between the philosopher Finkielkraut and Edwy Plenel <Senior Editor, Le Monde>.


In both 1984 and 1988, the years when Canadians elected Brian Mulroney (that will be: the rightest-wing candidate) with majorities in the House (unlike the minority currently enjoyed by the righter-wing Harper, with under 65% turnout) -- in fact, 1984 gave him the largest majority in Canadian history -- turnout was over 75%.

Anyhow, I'm failing to see what turnout has to do with anything here. It's often the indication of a polarized electorate, and that seems to be exactly what it was in France.



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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-09-07 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I don't quite understand the knee-jerk reaction here
I'm also a bit confused by the cherry-picking of data. Do you have some sort of stake in the French election? You seem to be arguing from a predetermined conclusion, rather than looking at the actual evidence.

First off, turnout was extremely high for this election, even considering the normally high turnout in France.
"Nicolas Sarkozy was last night handed a mandate to change France after a massive turnout in one of the most divisive presidential election campaigns in the country's history... By 5pm, voter turn-out stood at over 75%, the highest for that stage since 1965"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,,2073832,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=1

Do you really need convincing that higher turnout tends to favor the left? (And by "higher", I mean "higher than normal for that country", not just higher than the usual US turnout). If so, you may want to make a post about it in GD-P and see what kind of response you get.


"You'd think that if anybody actually in France had seen a problem, we'd have heard about it."

Well, you can read about it.

French parties call voting machines a 'catastrophe'
http://www.physorg.com/news96567089.html

A French e-voting "catastrophe"
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070424-afrench-e-voting-catastrophe.html


This is a report by a delegation of the Canadian Parliament that observed the election period in France in 2002.

It's interesting you pick 2002, the year before DRE machines were installed in several French cities.

The use of DRE machines (including our own ES&S) and the uncharacteristic right-wing victory with high turnout tells me that we should watch the post-election investigations closely. Sarkozy's win is a big victory for the BCF, and I'm sure they were motivated to "help out" in any way they could.

Our own election process has clearly been corrupted in favor of the right-wing, helped in no small way by the use of these untraceable DRE machines. Doesn't it seem reasonable to question the validity of another national right-wing victory counted by ES&S?

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-09-07 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. stake in the French election? Nahhh
Shares in whatever that company is that makes voting machines, that's it.

Knee-jerk reactions. Hmm.

Here's my first suggestion, which I already made: France is a highly developed country with a very sophisticated electorate. If the electorate, or anyone in the associative sector, for instance -- like unions, generally supportive of the left -- thought there was a problem, i.e. a problem other than a couple of machine breakdowns, I think we would have heard about it.

And since we haven't heard about it, what I don't have a stake in is whatever it is that makes people puff themselves up and act as if the whole rest of the world is some hick backwater that don't know nuttin, and needs guidance from its smart friends in the USofA.

I swear, sometimes I feel like I and all my funny foreign colleagues must look, to some USAmericans, like those not-smart aliens on STNG ...


It's interesting you pick 2002, the year before DRE machines were installed in several French cities.

Amazingly, I picked 2002 because it was the LAST BLEEDING PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN FRANCE. You can look at all preceding years from the wiki link.

And I offered that link pretty much only for what I thought was an entertaining anecdote about a philosopher debating the election issues in a public forum. Only in France.


Do you really need convincing that higher turnout tends to favor the left?

Well ... having been a candidate for "the left" in three Canadian provincial/federal elections, and knowing as I do, from working in the party since 1969, that the New Democratic Party here depends on pulling the vote, and in fact invented that door-to-door canvassing stuff we do for the purpose of identifying our suppoters ... wanna guess?

And yet, and yet, in 1984 Brian Mulroney, the rightest-wing prime minister Canada had then had to date, won with a huge landslide majority of seats in the House. (You can look up the popular vote if you like; it won't be as impressive as the seat count, but I suspect it was solid.)

I also doubled my party's vote in my riding. Like I said: a polarized electorate.

Polarized electorates, in elections with clear and clearly opposed propositions offered to them, tend to turn out in high numbers. Maybe not so much in the US, maybe because no matter how polarized, the electorate just gives less of a shit.


Yeah, I've read the arstechnica link already.


Doesn't it seem reasonable to question the validity of another national right-wing victory counted by ES&S?

Not unless there's a decent *reason* to do it. No.

And not unless somebody there invites you to. Really.

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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-09-07 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. OK, no stake, just good ol' fashioned USA bashing
S'ok, we have it coming. Of course, the fact that your assumptions are completely wrong in this case shouldn't deter you from making more.

Doesn't it seem reasonable to question the validity of another national right-wing victory counted by ES&S?

Not unless there's a decent *reason* to do it. No.

And not unless somebody there invites you to. Really.


That's interesting. No one should question election results unless invited to. And, of course, unless you have a decent reason, which presumedly pops in your head through clairvoyance because you're not allowed to ask questions.

I thought Canadians were supposed to be smarter that us fat, stupid Amurkins. I guess we both make wrong assumptions on occasion.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-10-07 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. "I guess we both make wrong assumptions on occasion."

Well, I don't guess anybody was making assumptions. You feel free, of course.

What's interesting is the use of classic right-wing rhetoric, in this of all places: "That's interesting. No one should ..." You know, like: "So you're saying ...". Except no one said "no one should", and I wasn't saying.

OK, no stake, just good ol' fashioned USA bashing

I don't think I was refering to anyone in general. Just to someone behaving like a stereotype.

I said what I have to say. If the French have any problems with their election that they'd like you to investigate, I'm sure they'll let you know. If I need to read any more loony speculation about something, I can probably find somewhere to do it.



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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-10-07 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Is someone having a bad week?
You seem to be stretching for a way to be snide and condescending. If that's what it takes for you to work out whatever's bugging you, then I'm glad I could be here for you. :hug:
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-09-07 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
10. For the concept of socialism to die (albeit temporarily)
there would have to be several generations of illiteracy. They're not there yet..
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TommyPaine Donating Member (300 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-09-07 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
11. Anyone read Michel Rocard's recent piece?
It's worth reading. Rocard was PM from '88-'91 under Mitterrand.

France has chosen — and it has chosen decisively. The next French president will be Nicolas Sarkozy, elected with 53.1% of the popular vote, with turnout, at 84.8%, the highest since 1981. This election is particularly rich in lessons.

France was said to be to be a country mired in apathy and increasingly uninterested in politics. For the last 20 years, the number of citizens who registered to vote had been declining and the number of registered voters who stayed home had been increasing. Among those who voted, the number who cast their votes for the parties of the extreme right or the extreme left — that is, parties unsuited for government — was steadily rising.

All this changed in the two rounds of this year’s election. The first lesson, then, is that France is re-politicising. With voter turnout beating all European records, France’s new president will have unusually strong legitimacy.

Second, and equally important, the extremist vote is weakening. Support for Jean-Marie Le Pen’s quasi-fascist National Front fell from 18% in 2002 to 10% this time around, representing an important gain in democratic stabilisation. Likewise, the extreme left, which together put up six presidential candidates, was politically annihilated. Only the Trotskyite candidate received more than 4% of the vote, while the rest — including the French Communist party, which for more than 30 years received a stable 20% of the vote — gained less than 2%. It is the end of an adventure that was not at all good for France.

The third key feature of the election was the emergence of a centrist constituency seeking to distinguish — indeed, separate — itself from the right. This is a critical development in France. The brave candidate of the new centre, François Bayrou, managed to triple his support relative to 2002, gaining 17% of the vote, although this was not enough to place him in the second round.

It was still too early in terms of the development of French political culture for the formation of an alliance between Bayrou and the Socialist candidate, Ségolène Royal — a proposal that I made before the elections. The absence of an agreement between Royal and Bayrou to back the first-round winner in the run-off with Sarkozy largely explains the ultimate defeat of both. But this is understandable. Historically, the Socialist Party has no tradition of coalition governments, much less of looking for coalition partners to its right. That day will come, but is arrival will require more time.

The fourth lesson follows from Sarkozy’s stance as a classical ultra-liberal. While he is very French in his upbringing and education — he does not speak English! — he is nevertheless neither a Jacobin nor a Gaullist. Indeed, the Gaullist tradition ends with him.

Sarkozy made public his disagreement with outgoing President Jacques Chirac about the French position against the American-led war in Iraq. President George W Bush, who was the first to congratulate Sarkozy, has a new ally in Europe. Sarkozy believes in the efficiency of markets and will shy away from state intervention in the economy. He will thus contribute to a reconciliation of the hitherto nationalist French right and modern conservatism as it is practised elsewhere.

The fifth lesson may be the most serious. The French left, represented by the Socialists, has suffered its third consecutive defeat in a presidential election. Given the erosion of the right’s power and Sarkozy’s not very attractive personality, the road was wide open for the Socialists to win.

The disastrous failure of the left has many causes. But the most important one, in my view, was the absence of a clear strategy on the part of the Socialists, who consistently refuse to make the choices that have gradually been accepted by international social democracy, embodied today in the Party of European Socialists. The international left has opted for a reformist course, including, where necessary, coalition governments with centrist partners. The reformist option fully accepts the internationalisation of today’s market economy.

The French Socialist Party’s lingering statism, ethnocentrism, and reluctance to accept coalitions with movements to its right reflects its violent and troubled history and the long intellectual domination of the French Communists. But these features constitute an obstacle to the Socialists’ becoming the party of government, and were reflected in their electoral programme, which was full of uncertainty and indifferent with respect to Europe and the broader international context. The voters did not find it credible.

This lesson is so evident that the French Socialist Party now face a clear choice. Either it modernises its program to come closer to international social democracy, or it enters a period of slow and prolonged decline. The Socialists now have no choice but to engage in a debate that is certain to be loud and contentious. But the outcome is far less clear.
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. From reading that, it sounds like the French socialist party has not reached out to North Africans.
I find that a rather strange position for them to take. Perhaps that's a reflection of an American, melting pot view point?
:shrug:
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