Finally! the pro-reproductive rights women in our community

[Ilsa]

have come out, although it is on a discussion board) to argue against the anti-choice at-all-costs people. Yeah, it is probably a waste of time, but at least they are coming out of the woodwork to post on a local newspaper discussion board.

It is hard to do this where I live. It is a small city, and people fear losing their jobs or customers if their political or religious beliefs are shaken out in the middle of town square.

[smokey nj]

1. This can only be a positive sign!

I'm curious, what's the gender breakdown of the forced-birthers on the discussion board?

[Ilsa]

2. There are a few women, one of which wants to have as many babies as she

can in her lifetime. A couple of men are taking the choice POV, but alot of these new posters appear to be women who are young enough to be affected by a reversal of Roe.

It's a pretty varied discussion. No one is going to change their minds over it (I bet). I think it is always possible that someone might hear another pov that makes them reconsider for making exceptions to a total ban.

What I've been doing is throwing little paragraphs from "My abortion is the only moral abortion" site to show how people change their minds when it is them dealing with the issue first hand.

[smokey nj]

3. Why does the woman who wants to have a shitload of kids oppose

choice? Roe v Wade doesn't have any impact on that at all. Jeez, talk about projection. I refuse to debate forced birthers, my rote response now is if you don't like it, DON'T have one and leave the rest of us alone.

[bliss_eternal]

4. They've been brainwashed....

...so many anti-choicers have been taught that everyone on our side hates children, hates birth, hates religion, morality, is against population and people having a lot of kids, etc., etc. We all know none of this is true, but it's what we are sometimes up against--just blatant ignorance and assumptions of who we really are, and what we think, feel and believe.

No two pro-choicers are exactly alike but you'd never know it from the right. We are all allegedly against pro-creation--and pro-sex and utilizing abortion as birth control. :shrug:

I've heard many of these comments made and they've always made my jaw drop.
Perhaps some of their beliefs are also based in seeing what's on their side. The anti-choice people can be pretty obnoxious and aggressive in their stance, going so far as to creat fake clinics and to stalking the real ones, harassing women outside the clinic. Maybe they just assume we are equally strident in our stances. :shrug:

I think if they'd take the time to talk to any of us, without assuming they may be surprised.

[Ilsa]

6. Yeah, this lady was very nice to me until I posted my choice POV.

She has accepted ALL of the views of her catholic faith. Thinks we don't have enough people in the world, especially not enough to wage a faith war. I would love to see people like her and the Baptists and Fundies (apologies to anyone I've offended) all crammed together in one state to breed themselves into nonexistence or fight with each other about premillenialism vs postmillenialism.

[smokey nj]

9. The death penalty is the best argument to use on pro-life Catholics.

If she votes Repuke, she's a hypocrite, there's NO WAY she can argue her way around that one. Although you wouldn't know it from the anti-choice rhetoric, in Catholicism the death penalty is considered just as evil as abortion. Because the death penalty is a part of the commons and undertaken on behalf of everyone in the state, she's responsible for every execution that's performed in the Texas death chamber.

[Ilsa]

13. She is against the Death Penalty. It is anti-life. SHe thinks they way the Pope tells her. nt

[smokey nj]

15. Does she vote based on her Pope-inflicted views?

There's a huge inconsistency in how the church approaches choice and the death penalty when it inserts itself in politics. In 2004, they made a big deal about publicizing that they'd deny John Kerry the sacrament of Communion because he's pro-choice (that's a huge deal for Catholics), yet they don't make a peep about Catholic politicians who support the death penalty. The Church didn't say anything publicly agains Arnold Schwarzenegger (sp?) when he oversaw 2 executions, and they've never threatened to excommunicate pro-death penalty politicians. The way I see it, the death penalty should weigh heavier on the conscience of a Catholic because it's performed on our collective behalf. The state doesn't sanction abortions, it's an individual decision.

[Ilsa]

18. I don't know much more about her than what I've mentioned, plus...

She will whack her kids if they get out of line, even an 18 month old, which I consider to be cruel ad abusive. It didn't shock me.

Corporal punishment is a touchy subject and you never know how people are going to react to spanking. I use it only in extreme circumstances, so it is very rare in this house. One reason it is rare is that it isn't very effective. A child ends up concentrating on their anger over the spanking rather than the issue of not doing something or doing something. There are better ways to parent, but they require more work and patience on the part of the parent.

[bliss_eternal]

10. I've come to believe....

...that most "religions" are sadly, a far cry from the unifying force they believe themselves to be.

Faith in and of itself is a separate issue and not what I'm referring to when I say religion. One can have faith and belief in a higher power, and follow a belief system without the trappings of religion, in my opinion. I believe religion is a man-made construct, designed to do exactly what it does--divide and conquer, control people, make people fearful, give some a sense of superiority over others, etc, etc., etc. All the things that seem to destroy people in the grand scheme of things.

Women and their issues suffer considerably in the traditional christian religions. Most won't even allow women to serve as leaders within their churches--that speaks volumes to me. Of course not ALL religions are like this, just the main ones here in the US(fundies, christians, etc.).

Oh, and Ilsa--I support your idea. I've never understood why more don't live like the Amish. Just go into a separate community and live the way they want, and stop dictating to the rest of us. :shrug:

[smokey nj]

7. My best friend and I had to avoid the abortion issue for years, she always described herself as

pro-life and we'd had many heated arguments about it. A few years ago it came up in a discussion and she said, "Well, I don't think it should be illegal," and I responded, "Well honey, that means you're pro-choice!" We actually laughed that we'd avoided it for years and we agreed on the basic issue; our only difference was that it was a choice she wouldn't make but I would. I wonder how many people who identify themselves as "pro-life" actually feel the same way she does.

As a side note, since she's had her first child, her pro-choice views seem to have strengthened. She says frequently that she can't imagine what it's like to go through a pregnancy that you don't really want.

[bliss_eternal]

11. Good point...

...too many people frame things based on what they would or wouldn't do. Pro-choice doesn't equate to being an abortion evangelist or recruiting efforts for Planned Parenthood. :crazy: It's so frustrating that people think that kind of stuff, but they seem to.

I'd rather believe in choice than in women playing sex vs. morality games with their bodies, lives and the lives of children. I've seen it, and it isn't pretty. Women that are "christian" and don't believe in abortion, but somehow manage to still have premarital sex--but of course because that's a sin, they don't protect themselves. :eyes: Because to do so, would somehow mean owning that they are actually having sex (committing a sin) ....but then when they inevitably get pregnant...then it had to be "god's will" that they got pregnant.

:wtf:
...as if god appeared suddenly, undressed them both and coerced them to have sex. :eyes: :shrug:

[smokey nj]

16. I know quite a few women who were fucked up by religion when it came to their sexuality.

My best friend, who was raised in a very Catholic home, had to work through a lot of guilt over the fact that she had sex before she was married. We were discussing this just last week, and she brought up how she was lucky that she didn't get pregnant, because she believed the bullshit that was fed to her. She said that when her sons (she has one boy and is expecting another in Dec.) are older, she plans on having condoms readily available for them when they become sexually active.

[Ilsa]

19. Yeah, I don't want my boys becoming fathers early, either. nt

[Ilsa]

5. Oddly enough, one male poster on her side said in another thread,

"Your rights stop where mine begin." I'll be sure to remind him of that when he posts again.

[smokey nj]

8. Well, if he's so concerned about his rights he should be very careful where he deposits his semen.

I have NO PATIENCE or SYMPATHY for pro-life men. There are quite a few of them here at DU, I like to call them my ignore list.

[bliss_eternal]

12. Anti-choice men....

...have bought into the belief that it is their divine purpose in life to dictate options for women. They are a special form of evil and like you, I have no patience, time or energy for them. They've convinced themselves that they are about "life" when the reality is they are about oppression and control. I used to take the time to tell them as much, but I don't anymore. They aren't worth it.

Again, completely evil as far as I'm concerned.

[smokey nj]

14. I don't understand how women, even those who consider themselves "pro-life"

can be with a man who's a forced birther. It demonstrates a complete lack of respect for women as human beings and is a pretty clear indication that he views a potential mate as his property. I know when I was single, it was a deal breaker for me.

[bliss_eternal]

17. For me, too...

...if a guy was not pro-choice when I was dating, I was like "buh-bye." When I was older, I also took the time to ensure they were Dems, progressive, LIKED women, etc. I couldn't have committed to (or even loved)a man that was a republican. :puke: