Frank Zappa's first 45

[democraticinsurgent]

So I'm on the way back from a business meeting and stop in this small Indiana town to check out their antique malls, primarily for records which is about all I have the budget or focus for these days.

I look through crate after crate of nothingness. Then I notice a small box of 45's on the floor. Flipping through them, i see unfamiliar labels, which is usually a good sign.

I end up taking home about 12 of them, including a 45 by The Masters, which I almost threw back because there is a gospel/religious group by that name and to me that wouldn't be worth even the 25 cents I was spending.

I get back home and start looking them up. Mostly nothing to shout about, except for that Masters 45. Seems that it is actually Frank Zappa's first record, from way back in the early 60's, long before the Mothers of Invention.

I know a ton about vinyl records, but not that much about Zappa. I didn't realize he had a pretty long career prior to the Mothers of Invention, and none of it under his own name. The Masters turns out to be hyper rare, with only about 20 copies known. And fortunately for me, this one's in pretty nice shape, very clean with no writing on it and sounds great.

I try to find a value. The only sale I could find was for $400 in 2007, but for a lesser copy. I would certainly be happy with that, but figure it might go for more if it's that rare.

I throw it up on eBay a week ago Sunday. Ultimately I had more watchers than ever before, something like 42. One guy in UK tries to get me to end the auction and sell it to him for $700. Tempting, but I had a gut feeling I should see it through. Plus I hate ending auctions early. Ruffles too many feathers.

Last night it was sitting at $676 into the last minute, but at the very end, it rocketed.

Final selling price, $1,691. For a .25 investment.

Two bidders were dueling big-time, which is what we always hope for in situations like this.

The goodies are still out there, folks. This one will keep me going for years and hopefully will inspire others as well.

Vinca, thanks again for stirring up this forum. Let's hear some more fun stories!

Rick

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

1. Fun!

And good for you.

I thought with the internets and all that everyone pretty much knew what they had & great finds were rare.

[democraticinsurgent]

4. you would think that

but...i've been in collectible records since 1978 and didn't know this one. And the typical antique mall person is going to know a lot less about records than me. so the odds are still not so bad.

the hardest part with records is not the dealers but the other collectors. So it pays to go off the beaten path.

[eleny]

2. Wow!

What gives me goosebumps is how you considered passing it up. But experience told you to take that chance. Congrats on the great find and sale. If this doesn't inspire us to keep digging then nothing can. I'm going to be thinking of you as I pick through the dusty paintings and prints stacked on the floor of my ARC thrift shop.

[Vinca]

3. OMG - you nearly made me throw up when you mentioned

"small box of 45's." Last week I put a small box of mostly 1950's promo 45's on the floor of one of my booths. I had checked them out pretty well and decided none had much value and put about $65 on the lot. They sold right away. Then . . . phew . . . you talk about your ebay listing which was prior to my sale. Your case is why I always pick up old records even though I know very little about them. I had no idea Frank Zappa was in anything other than the Mothers of Invention. Wow - congratulations! Those are the exciting sales that make it all worthwhile.

[democraticinsurgent]

5. Thanks to all for your good wishes

Vinca, if you looked them up, you probably came out ok. If they don't sell more more than $10 on eBay there's not much point in trying to auction them. I triage records this way: Worth putting on eBay ($10 and up, and not much competition, and they go in my eBay store unless i think there's enough demand to justify an aucction), worth putting in antique mall (most non-eBay records if they're clean), and worth throwing out/giving to goodwill (beat-up/scratched/etc.).

The only caution is that if you can't find much information, you might have a local rarity with not much of a reputation. Most of these are not a big deal but there are some local records that people will pay big $ for due to their rarity. Amazingly, even at this late date there are some 50's/60's/70's records still being discovered and documented.

For records, there are four things I do:

1. Check completed items on eBay to see if there are any recent sales, then look at active items to see what people are asking. But the only reliable info is what something sells for. There are crazy people who ask 10x the value of some records just because they are hoping one foolish person will buy them.

2. Check www.popsike.com, which is an eBay tracking site. If it's sold within the past few years for $25 or more, you may (but not always) find it here

3. Check www.collectorsfrenzy.com, a similar site to popsike.

4. Google it. Use the artist's name, song or album title, and even label name until you find stuff. You can look at the shopping tab and see who's trying to sell it, but again, the web is full of people trying to sell things at stupid high prices, especially on GEMM and MusicStack, where they aggregate thousands of dealer listings. I don't use Google so much as a price guide but as an information source; digging into the websites that come up can lead to fan sites and blogs where you can get closer to true value.

[Vinca]

8. Thanks for the suggestion. I did check them on ebay as well as

an older record value guide. I was actually surprised that on ebay it doesn't seem to make much difference whether or not a 45 is a promo or not. I thought they might have more value than an ordinary copy, but that didn't seem to be the case.

[democraticinsurgent]

9. promos are hot for certain artists

For 50's and 60's 45's, promos are significantly more valuable for artists like Buddy Holly, Elvis, Beatles, etc. because there are so few compared to the stock copies, and because of the collectibility of the artist--there are collectors who want every possible variation.

For lesser known artists, the values are more similar because there is less interest. For certain rarities the stock copies are more valuable than the promos because the promos--via mailings to radio stations, dj's and stores--got more circulation than the stock copies did.

[Vinca]

10. Thanks for the info. I really appreciate it.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

6. Nice. nt

[grasswire]

7. thanks for all the tips

I pass up lots of records just because I don't know anything about 45s and my niche of music (jazz) is largely 78. I once found 78s for the whole first recording session of the Original Dixieland Jass Band (the first real jazz band). That was cool. I donated them to a jazz society.

I suspect that now a lot of boomers are downsizing and their stashes of 45s will enter the market.

[democraticinsurgent]

11. Those 78's were a good find

Nice.

Also I just found out about a 3rd source for completed eBay record listings. http://www.musicpriceguide.com.

[Vinca]

12. Here's another question for you. Actually two questions.

Does an obscure label have value by itself? What is "northern soul" exactly? It seems those 45s go for a fortune.

[eleny]

13. From Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_soul

[democraticinsurgent]

14. Obscure label is not anything by itself

There are many records on private/obscure/local labels that no one wants. I collect Indiana records in particular and have dozens of 45's on local labels that are not worth more than a buck or two, if that. But most of those are in musical genres that few collectors are serious about, such as country, or mainstream pop, or Christian.

It comes down to the old standard--supply and demand. A local/obscure label usually means low supply, usually not more than 1000 pressed and sometimes a lot less. However, it's the music in the grooves that creates the demand. If it's judged by collectors to be worthy or interesting, that's where the action starts to happen. Or, as in the case of the Zappa 45, it's not so much the quality of the music--though it is good surf/rock instrumental--but the presence of a very young Frank Zappa--that caused the value to skyrocket.

Good link to northern soul, thanks Eleny. It's sort of British for "The Motown Sound". It's a pretty mysterious thing as far as trying to figure out which northern soul records are collectible,you just have to look them up. Sometimes they are actually on major labels like Motown, but if so they are usually non-hits that collectors and DJ's have rediscovered and are well liked.

Shorthand: obscure labels pre 1985 with rock/funk/soul/rockabilly/surf/punk/new wave/jazz are good bets. Folk lp's on private labels are on the rise at the moment, as are even Holiday Inn style lounge bands.

[grasswire]

15. is there still good value in the tiki-type albums

...and what about those stereo-hi fi demonstration type things?

[democraticinsurgent]

17. Some Tiki albums are hot

I sold one for more than $100 earlier this year, darned if I can remember what the name of it was.

However the infatuation with "exotica", stuff like Martin Denny, Esquivel, etc. appears to be past. Polynesian stuff is better, as is anything "voodoo" or deep African, especially if there's funk/percussive elements.

Stereo demonstration lp's, i don't know. Doubtful that there's much happening there.

[Vinca]

16. As a child of the 60's who loves Motown, I must have heard this stuff.

Will keep my eyes - and ears - open.

[democraticinsurgent]

18. what you've heard is not likely what is selling

...that's the weirdness of records. The more popular, the more that sold. That makes supply high and since so few music lovers chase vinyl, the supply outpaces demand for almost anything popular.

so especially with Motown...most of those records are not valuable despite their greatness.

The gold is for the most part in the obscure.