It's depressing! As retired dealers, we often go "on the road"

[yy4me]

to see what we can find, visit old friends, learn a little and have fun. These past few weeks, we have visited countless areas where some great shops used to be. Gone, shuttered, empty. Even the group shops are half empty. Stuff is hard to find but boy, it must be impossible to earn a living in the Antiques business now.

I guess we were lucky to be in the business during a time when the economy was good. We'd go on the road and come back to the shop with a van load of goodies. Now I'm afraid all that would happen is we'd spend tons of money on gas and come home empty.

The public has no idea how hard a dealer works to get his merchandise. Winters were always slow but now, I don't know how I'd pay the rent and insurance.

This weekend we went to some areas in NH that used to be on our routes. Gone, now the sight of a new mall. I guess it reaches a point where the land is worth more than the business.

I used to love going to Nashua, Amherst, Milford and the surrounding towns. Hardly anyone left. We were really furniture dealers with a few specific sidelines like silver,jewelry and fireplace equipment. Not big dollar stuff, just reasonable priced middle of the line things. I do wonder where it has all gone.

Any of you in this area of New England and can lead us to new territory? We will never be able to get the business out of our systems but we sure need to find new spots within a reasonable distance.

I love the shops that have a mix of everything, not just one big ticket piece of furniture after another.

If you are a New England dealer and have a shop or are in a co-op, where are you? We'll be on the road again and would love to stop. Never can tell what we'll find.

[grasswire]

1. I suppose that if the economy worsens...

...people will be trying to sell things from their collections in order to fund daily living. Anyone who has capital and can look to the future will be able to take advantage of that sad trend to buy and hold until prices go back up again in the future.

On another note, I noticed something odd the other day. I went to a mini family reunion in a retirement facility that has a huge thrift shop where estate items from failing and deceased residents are sold to the public. It's a great big four-room store, with thousands of items priced extremely reasonably. In the whole shop, I found no treasures. Nothing that could really be called collectible. Not one item that would turn more than a buck in profit for a dealer.

Someone is picking that place clean. I suspect it may be someone on the staff of the facility who aids families to clean out the apartments when a resident is moved into the higher level of nursing care.

[grasswire]

2. oh.....you know the Amherst auction moved, don't you?

I think it's in Sunderland now. Google for Pioneer auction Amherst and it should turn up.

And have you frequented the auctions in South Deerfield and in Willimantic? I always enjoyed those.

[Vinca]

3. I sell at a group shop in Brattleboro, Vermont called

Twice Upon a Time. It's downtown and has quite a few dealers. Another place is the Red Barn in Bellows Falls, Vermont on Route 5. I've heard good and bad things about it. Following the Vermont tour, there's the Stone House in Chester. I've heard of a new shop just across the river from Bellows Falls in North Walpole, NH but haven't checked it out yet. Another dealer went up there and found a mismarked piece of Native American pottery for peanuts. It's very, very, very hard to find anything and most of the shops seem to have as many repros as bona fide antiques.

[Stinky The Clown]

4. That's a universal phenomenon, sad to say ........

Most of the shops we used to scour are gone, gone, gone. Several of the group shaops have closed and the remaining ones are less well stocked. Smalls are almost entirely unavailable, all of them being put on eBay, I suppose.

I (used to?) collect watches and fountain pens. I have not found a pen in the wild for, literally, over a decade. Watches are still to be found, but mostly quartz crap. Sparkly collects old books and sheet music. Some of that is still available, but not of the quality she used to find routinely.

For us, as buyers, its been less stock = fewer visits = reduced interest = lower sales = less stock = rinse and repeat ...... and so it goes. That's not to be unkind to dealers. Its to simply say its a viscous cycle. One who is clairvoyant and can predict the next hot commodity or desirable collectible can buy to their heart's content and make a killing later.

[grasswire]

5. Sparkly collects sheet music?

Any niche in particular? I might be able to watch for things, as I pay a lot of attention to sheet music sales. The interesting thing on eBay is that a lot of collectors who were very active six or so years ago have apparently filled their needs and mostly dropped out, and prices have fallen in some niches. I have about 12,000 pieces in my personal stash.

[Stinky The Clown]

6. Believe it or not, she mostly collects music to actually use!

She looks for old public domain stuff and music for teaching.

She also collects stuff with great cover illustrations.

That said, I better let her answer this. (Stinky <--- smarter than the average clown)

[Sparkly]

7. Hi, grasswire!

Wow, where do you keep 12,000 pieces?!?

I have a few different things I pick up, mostly on a "know it when I see it" basis.

1. Sheet music that's weird and funny. Favorites: "The Hoodoo Man," "The Sneak," "That Hypnotizing Man." (My three sisters and I once performed a choreographed rendition of "That Hypnotizing Man" at a family reunion!)

2. Sheet music about "women gone wrong." "Just a Girl that Men Forget," "I Don't Care What You Used to Be," "Shady Lady" type things. Also other weird sexist things in general. (I have one about how "no" really means "yes" -- can't remember the title.)

For awhile I was collecting music with states in their titles, hoping to find all of them, but I gave up on that.

3. Old piano scores, especially pre-1923. I have two bound volumes of music from "The Etude" from 1911 and 1912 I believe -- I've gotten a lot of use out of those! (I do have stacks of "Etudes" already, though.) I look for obscure books too, but so much of it sounds dated and "precious," it tends to disappoint. Music that supports movement is a special niche (dance music, pieces for schools, etc.).

4. Old piano method books, again pre-1923. I have almost all of the "Progressive Course of Studies" of Matthews, from Presser (there are ten volumes). There are some good exercises and etudes in some of these! The titles of the pieces are often hilarious, though. (My students have played "The Charming Shepherdess," "A Pleasant Afternoon," things like that.)

5. Old school music readers, teachers' manuals, and songbooks for children (pre-1923 if possible but I've gotten permission to republish songs from some of the American Book Company books). I have a few series, and separate books of songs that I've found some real gems in! Sometimes I use a melody and change lyrics (those lyrics can be very 'precious' if you know what I mean), or use the lyrics and write a new melody.

6. Anything by Emile Jaques-Dalcroze, a Swiss composer and teacher of the last century. That's a special area for me, but quite obscure.

That's probably way more information than you wanted!

What kinds of music do you collect?

[grasswire]

8. do you have a copy of the Yama Yama Man?

Oh Lordy. This is one of my favorite topics.

Where do I keep 12,000 pieces of music? In sleeves, in tubs in the basement. I only have wall space in the house to hang a few for their art. Two that are very sentimental to me are hung by my bed. My favorite sheet is a piece of music like one that hung on the wall in Alexandria's Fish Market, where my best old friend was the singalong ragtime pianist for many years. This piece of music hung right next to the piano. I admired it there, and every time I see this, it makes me happy again. It's not particularly unusual, just evocative for me.



What do I collect? I'm especially interested in sheets that have the word "jazz" in the title. And I covet rags, but generally can't afford the ones I REALLY want, as a lot of other people covet them, too. America's greatest ragtime pianist, Max Morath, has been selling his personal collection on eBay, and that has been real interesting to watch. I was pretty interested in the black Americana stereotypical sheets, but don't collect them. A seller on eBay right now is selling a collection of them that is extensive and priced not to sell. Sky high. Only a few of them are selling.

And I really like 19th century sheets with lithographs.

I just am in love with pre-1940 American popular song, its songwriters and musicians. Always have been. I attribute that to my mother playing a radio program when I was a child that featured old popular music from the early part of the 19th century.

I have a box full of early 19th century musical instruction books that I got at auction in New England. I'll have to check them out (when I can find them) and see if there might be something you could use in there. I wouldn't sell it to you; that wouldn't be right to use DU in that way. Anything useful would be a gift. Too bad we are 3,000 miles apart and you can't browse through. I'm about ready to start weeding some stuff out.

[eleny]

22. Here's two audios of Yama Yama Man

http://www.archive.org/details/AdaJoneswithVictorLightOperaCompany

I got curious as I'd never heard it before. It reminds me of songs used for cartoons way back when. Oh so cute with fun sound effects during the instrumental portions.

[grasswire]

23. some interesting trivia

From a jazz mailing list I belong to:

"Yes, I go along with Yama Yama Man originating in 1908 in the show "The
>Three Twins". In the ORIGINAL lyrics. A Yama Yama Man was a stage door
>Johnny with certain questionable intentions towards the ladies of the
>chorus. A rather suggestive lyric."

Of course, the tune was made glamorous by Ginger Rogers, who danced to it in her Hollywood glory years.

I'm looking for a jpg of the sheet music cover to post. Lots of fun.

[grasswire]

24. oh wait, there's more

Another musician replied re: this tune. (These postings are from 2004)

Mike Durham wrote;
<<Yama Yama: Paul, where did you find the info about the lyric
concerning 'stage-door johnnies'? I'm now quite hooked on finding out
all about this thing. I saw references (can't remember where, dammit!)
to Halloween in regard to the song, which would fit the lyric as sung by
Jimmy Stanislaus with Turk's band. The original sheet music, on file at
the University of Indiana, has words like Jimmy's, and nothing to do
with stage doors!
"Every little tot at night is afraid of the dark you know Some big Yama
Man he sees when up to bed he must go....etc, then the chorus:
Yama Yama, the Yama Man, terrible eyes and a face of tan If you don't
watch out he'll get you without a doubt If he can" etc, etc.
Did your lyrics maybe come from one of the two films that featured the
song
- it was in the 1939 RKO Rogers/Astaire "Vernon & Irene Castle Story"
and again in Warner's "Look For The Silver Lining" in 1949.
Any help you can give much appreciated: and I too love Monk, I keep
hearing echoes of Jelly Roll and the stride guys in his playing, also
love his compositions....
Yours from behind the big chair,
Mike D.>>

Well Mike,
The more I researched, the more that was revealed. Don't know where to
start. OK, I'll just start.
The song was published by M.
Witmark & Sons in 1908. So it sez on the sheet music. The Lyrics that
you know were written by Colin Davis, with Music by Karll Hoschna. Davis
is credited right under the title in the middle of the page. But above
the title (YYM) in big bold letters is the name of the production;
"Three Twins". And under that it says Chas. Dickson's Musical adaptation
of Mrs. R Pacheco's comedy "Incog". The word doesn't make sense to me.
The last letter looks like a G, Whoops!! It makes sense, now. It's short
for incognito. It all ties together. All this print is in a middle panel
box. On the left side of the box there is a female dressed up in a clown
outfit, complete with the pointed clown cap and fluffy white ball at the
top. And three big round fluffy balls going down the front of the
outfit. (Get it? a clown disgise.) She is facing right, (towards the
panel on the right side of the middle) containing a dapper gentleman
holding and looking at a picture of himself.
Now the plot thickens.
Down at the very bottom of the cover in even bigger lettering, Hoschena
is credited with the music, BUT Lyrics are credited to O. (Otto) A.
Harbach. I suspect that it is he who wrote the two extra verses below.
They are on the Ada Jones / Victor Light Opera Company recording, Victor
16326-B. But he is not credited on the label. But Davis and Hoschna are.
Also the 2nd verse which you know as;
"Great big Starry eyes you see, so you cover up your head.....", is not
included on the record. It is verse one, only;
"Ev-ry - little tot at night........"

Folowed by these next two verses. Of course with chorus's in between.

Verse two;
The Johnny's - they - go to see the play
but they don't care for the plot

They - want - to see if all the girls
are wearing much or not

(Pretty risque for 1908)

Verse 3;
A man - sold - some powder goods for bugs
But the man he must have lied

It - wasn't - good for bugs at all
The poor little bugs all died

So, it seems more and more that this song was focused more
towards a con man type with ulterier motives, and performed with an
innocent or naive delivery. I'd assume that the song was sung by the
character in the clown outfit. who in the drawing on the cover is
wearing something like cotton gloves, but without the extended long
fingers, as in later copies of the sheet music. Or as in the version
that Ginger Rogers did in "The Story Of Vernon and Irene Castle. Maybe,
as a whole number, she (The character in the 1908 show) was imitating
the gestures of an innocent little girl. Partially like Ginger did it in
the "Castle" flick.It actually is starting to sound like a pretty 'hip'
plot. Boy meets girl, girl finds out what boy is all about, girl nails
boy, and he "honey do's" her for the rest of his life. Or straigtens up
his act. Does sound a little like a Fred and Ginger scenario, but it was
before their time.

I'd love to find that book "Incog"

Regarding the New Orleans lullabye part. Now, doesnt it seem more
believable that the song was adapted into that N.O. mode concearning a
dude with a tan face considered to be a spooky character. Truly, the
song definately did not originate in New Orleans.
Moral; Mike!! Don't believe everything you read in liner notes on
albums. Their was a lot of false P.R. (not yours truly) dreamed up by
Columbia Records people to promote the original release of the BG 38
Carnegie Hall concert. If you want to know more about all that, pick up
the digitally remastered COMPLETE concert with tunes that were deleted
from all other releases. The liner notes are extensive and reveal a lot.

>From behind the descant, back to you in your comfortable big chair.

Paul (Is Yama Yama like 'blah blah blah", or 'yahdda yahdda yahdda'?)
Reid
Uh-ohhhh. sounds like the start of another rumor.

[eleny]

25. There's one on this page from 1908

Halfway down the page http://www.myerscollectibles.com/store/category/bwzr.101/Large_Format.html

[Kat45]

9. I believe there is old sheet music in my mother's basement, among

the things I'll have to go through with her sometime in the near future. When my parents bought their house in the fifties, it had been owned by an old couple who I think had died, and contents of the house were included in the purchase. Because of this, I'm guessing that there is probably sheet music from earlier in the 20th century. A player piano was also included in their purchase, and my mother, who played piano, has always regretted that they had to get rid of it because they had no room for it.

If we go through the sheet music any time soon (while I remember this thread), I'll refer to your posts, Sparkly and Grasswire, and let you know if we have anything that fits into your categories.

Also, Husb2Sparkly, I'm prety sure my mother has some old pens. What kind of pens do you collect?

[Stinky The Clown]

10. ::::drool::::: Pens???????

The best way to put it is any quality pen with a gold nib. Older is better. But not dip pens.

I use gold nibs as the standard, not because there is any significant gold value there - there really isn't ..... maybe 5 bux, tops, if the nib is the size of a small shovel. Its just that gold nibs were used in better pens because gold is the best nib material and indicative of a quality pen. They often, but far from always, have levers on the side used to fill them.

Like these:



This is a dip pen (in which I have no interest):

[Kat45]

12. I believe these are the type of pens she has

She said she'll look for them, and after she finds them I can let you know what they are, or post pictures of them. She's not sure if she has many nor does she know if they have gold nibs or not. I'll get back to you when I find out.

Also, I noticed you said you used to collect watches but no longer do because you weren't able to find them anymore. This might interest you, I don't know: my mother says she has her brother's old watch--a Hamilton watch he got when he graduated from high school, which would have been around 1929 or so.

[Stinky The Clown]

13. I might be interested in that, too.

The only place pens and watches seem plentiful is on eBay. The prices there for these two items, however, is astronomical (by my standards). The sellers are mostly experienced collectors and the buyers are mostly newbies drawn by slick pictures and fanciful descriptions. We unlsick collectors never really bought much. Of late (I check every few months) there seems to be an overall decline in both rpices and quality. Also, new pens seem to be there at a 10/1 ratio over serious collector vintage pens. The eBay watch market is pretty much the same as the pen market .... overheated but heading down and populated by the same few sellers.

[Kat45]

14. I'll let you know when I get more info.

And I'll try to get some pictures up.

[Kat45]

15. I don't have pics yet, but I got a chance to see the items.

The Hamilton watch is a nice looking piece, though I'm not sure if it runs or not. (Probably not.) But what I think may make it more valuable (though I know nothing about watch collecting) is that is has the original watch case, which has cloth labels in it. Information on the label includes the serial number of the watch. There's also a cloth price tag, $50, which was certainly a hefty price around 1929 or so. (My mother's family did not have money but they somehow saved up for the watch; I have a feeling my uncle may have been the first in the family to graduate from high school.)

As for the pens, there aren't as many as I thought but there are some. Two of them are Schaeffer pens, which I've heard of but know nothing about. I have to look at the rest with a good magnifying glass to see if anything is written on them. There are also a couple of mechanical pencils, one of them is interesting (to me) because it is quite tiny, maybe about 2 1/2 inches long.

I will get pictures, but I'd be interested in any insight you might have based on what I've told you so far?

[Stinky The Clown]

16. I wish I could add to what you've said, but I can't.

The box adds a bit to the value of the watch, but the truth is, boxes often outlast the item they contained. I confess to not honing what today's values are, but a few years ago, all but mint boxes, no matter the make, and no matter of pen or watch, were in the $5 - $20 range. There are exceptions to this, particularly for a rare piece or a rare box, but those are few and far between.

In any given year, Hamilton had perhaps 30 to 50 different watches available, so what you have, without a picture, is pretty much impossible to guess.

The same is true of the pens and pencils. Sheaffer's in particular were the biggest American pen maker and had a huge line of products every year.

[Kat45]

17. I'll try to get some pictures this weekend

My friend's camera is better for taking close-up pictures so I'll have to wait til I see him, which I hope will be this weekend. I was able to read the info on the label in the case, and it's a 17 jewel watch and it also says "the watch of railroad accuracy." Is there any significance to the movement number or case number? The watch has my uncle's initials engraved on the back. My mother says she doesn't know if it's the original watchband or not; the band says band-it and genuine calfskin on it.

As for the pens, my mother said one of them says Windsor on it.

[grasswire]

20. fountain pen for sale in Goodwill auction

This is probably too plebian for you, Stinky, but I'm posting the link here just in case.

http://www.shopgoodwill.com/viewItem.asp?ItemID=3322410

[Stinky The Clown]

21. I bought one of those when it was new!

My primary interest is in pens from the early 1920s to the 1950s ...... the Golden Age. They made them before then, but, even though very ornate and highly collectible, don't interest me as much as my 'sweet spot'. Neither do newer pens. These days, every big pen maker is making this hugely, grossly, obscenely overpriced 'limited edition' pens. Kinda like Franklin Mint stuff ..... pretty, but who cares.

That pen you linked to is from the 70s. A very good, work-a-day pen.

[grasswire]

11. I always wanted a player piano

Never got one. I got the next best thing -- a close friend who was the three-time world champion winner of the Old Time Piano Player contest held yearly. Ha!

Remember what Nietszche said: "Without music, life is a mistake."

[yy4me]

18. Is there a reason we now have a pen ad at the top of the page?

I guess all kinds of people read DU, I think it is funny.

[Kat45]

19. Google must have picked up on the word "pens" in this thread, and

tailored the ads thusly.