Cuba's revolution at 50: gains fade, despair endures

[Zorro]

<snip>

Fifty years ago, an attorney turned bearded guerrilla marched triumphantly into Havana and declared victory over a departing dictator. Then he became a despot himself.

Fidel Castro forever changed the landscape of both Cuba and Miami. He jailed or executed his enemies, seized private property, divided families, and drove nearly two million Cubans into exile. His nation became a Cold War pawn.

At the same time, Castro launched a massive literacy campaign. The island churned out armies of new doctors. Cuba became an international player, inspiring guerrilla movements and supplying soldiers for ''anti-imperialist'' wars around the globe. Castro's refusal to kowtow to the United States won him praise.

As the Jan. 1 anniversary of the revolution's triumph approaches, many of the social welfare achievements that were the trophies of the communist regime have rusted. Years of failed economic policy, waves of mass exodus, and Cuba's inability to recover from the collapse of its patron, the Soviet Union, have dulled Castro's touted crown jewels -- the advances in health and education.

<snip>

More at: http://www.miamiherald.com/581/story/811777.html

[Vogon_Glory]

1. HOW DARE YOU?

How DARE you insinuate that everything ISN'T hunky-dory in the island republic, and that things would only get better if the US ended the embargo and everyone from hard-line Batistianos to namby-pamby 'bourgeois-liberals' would STOP criticizing Cuba's record when it comes to freedom of expression, freedom of speech, or freedom of association?!

:+


You are obviously NOT a progressive and you must be taking money from the CANF!!!

:crazy:

[Zorro]

2. Dang

I'm busted!

Oh, and I also think Chavez is a loudmouthed authoritarian asshole, in case anyone was wondering.

And I don't like the FARC, either.

[struggle4progress]

3. Dictator of the Month: August, 2006

A little something for DU's nostalgic Batistianos

Fulgencio Batista y Zaldívar (Dictator of the Month: August, 2006)
General Fulgencio Batista y Zaldívar (January 16, 1901 - August 6, 1973) was the de facto military leader of Cuba from 1933 to 1940 and the de jure President of Cuba from 1940 to 1944. He then became the country's leader, after staging a coup, from 1952 to 1959 ... Sergeant Batista was a leader of the 1933 "Sergeants' Revolt" which replaced the Provisional Government of Carlos Manuel de Céspedes who had previously ousted Gerardo Machado. It is generally conceded that U.S. Special Envoy Sumner Welles approved of this ... During this period Batista violently suppressed a number of attempts to defeat his control. This included the squashing of an uprising in the ancient Atares fort (Havana) by Blas Hernández, a rural guerrilla who had fought Gerardo Machado. Many of those who surrendered were executed. Another attempt was the attack on the Hotel Nacional where Cuban former army officers of the Cuban Olympic rifle team (including one Enrique Ros) put up stiff resistance until they were defeated. Here again Batista troops executed a good number of the surrendered ... Batista staged an almost bloodless coup d'état on March 10, 1952, removing Carlos Prío Socarrás (elected in 1948) ... The new government received diplomatic recognition from the United States ... http://www.dictatorofthemonth.com/Batista/Aug2006BatistaEN.htm

And who would want to forget the happy mafia days?

A Forgotten Story: The Mafia In Cuba
Luis Sexto
... By 1933, the Italian-American Mafia began to be a dominant and sombre presence in Havana. This was made easier by that year’s adventure following the military coup of September 4, of Fulgencio Batista ... A few weeks after the sergeants’ rebellion .. Meyer Lansky .. Lucky Luciano’s second-in-command, unexpectedly travelled to Havana to negotiate with Batista ... Meyer had dealt with Batista since the 20’s when Cuba supplied clandestine alcohol to US taverns and bars besieged by the Dry Law ... Batista accepted Lansky’s proposal and authorized the Cosa Nostra to administer and develop gambling’s green baize tables. And the National Hotel’s casino, one of the most sumptuous gambling houses in the Americas, arose ... http://www.cubanow.net/pages/loader.php?sec=7&t=2&item=3623

Participants at 1946 Havana Mafia Meeting
http://www.cubaheritage.org/articles.asp?lID=1&artID=230

Book reveals extent of Mafia's Cuban empire
By Carlos Rodríguez Martorell
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Friday, July 18th 2008, 4:00 AM
... So English set out to find out what American mobsters were really up to for his recently released nonfiction book “Havana Nocturne: How the Mob Owned Cuba and Then Lost It to the Revolution” (William Morrow, $27.95) ...
“People didn’t know about the extent in which mobsters owned banks and controlled financial lending institutions in Cuba,” says English ... “I would say <Batista> was an equal partner with the mobsters,” says English, a 50-year-old New Yorker of Irish background who is the author of several books about the mob. “The mafiosi — Meyer Lansky, Santo Trafficante — couldn’t have done what they did without their relationship with Fulgencio Batista” ... http://www.nydailynews.com/latino/2008/07/18/2008-07-18_book_reveals_extent_of_mafias_cuban_empi.html

[Judi Lynn]

4. It would bring a tear to the eyes looking backward at the man who ran their goverment, tortured &

killed dissidents, ran death squads to keep down the population of the riff-raff.

~snip~
In Latin America, the word "disappeared" came to denote not just victimization but moral repudiation, as the mothers and children of the disappeared led a continental movement to restore the rule of law. They provide hope that one day the world-wide network of repression assembled by the Bush administration will be as discredited as Operation Condor is today in Latin America. As Greene wrote half a century ago, on the eve of the fall of another famous torturer, Cuba's Fulgencio Batista, "it is a real danger for everyone when what is shocking changes."

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/12/11/5772

~snip~
Coup in Cuba (Batista)

A military coup occurs in Cuba. The elected government of Carlos Prio Socorras is deposed by Fulgencio Batista.

The USA supports the new Cuban dictator who is a particularly brutal ruler. Under his regime, Cuba becomes a haven for drugs, gambling, vice and mobsters. USA business interests benefit.

Freedom of speech is curtailed and hundreds of teachers, lawyers and public officials are fired from their jobs. Death squads torture and kill thousands of "communists".

http://www.krysstal.com/display_acts.php?topic=Military+Coup

FULGENCIO BATISTA
President of Cuba
Cuban Army Sergeant Fulgencio Batista first seized power in a 1932 coup. He was President Roosevelt's handpicked dictator to counteract leftists who had overthrown strongman Cerardo Machado. Batista ruled or several years, then left for Miami, returning in 1952 just in time for another coup, against elected president Carlos Prio Socorras. His new regime was quickly recognized by President Eisenhower. Under Batista, U.S. interests flourished and little was said about democracy. With the loyal support of Batista, Mafioso boss Meyer Lansky developed Havana into an international drug port. Cabinet offices were bought and sold and military officials made huge sums on smuggling and vice rackets. Havana became a fashionable hot spot where America's rich and famous drank and gambled with mobsters. As the gap between the rich and poor grew wider, the poor grew impatient. In 1953, Fidel Castro led an armed group of rebels in a failed uprising on the Moncada army barracks. Castro temporarily fled the country and Batista struck back with a vengeance. Freedom of speech was curtailed and subversive teachers, lawyers and public officials were fired from their jobs. Death squads tortured and killed thousands of "communists". Batista was assisted in his crackdown by Lansky and other members of organized crime who believed Castro would jeopardize their gambling and drug trade. Despite this, Batista remained a friend to Eisenhower and the US until he was finally overthrown by Castro in 1959.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/dictators.html

http://www.nndb.com.nyud.net:8090/people/841/000113502/fulgencio-batista.jpg

A Cuban the right-wing adored.

[Zorro]

5. I see apologists for the 50 year Cuban dictatorship

are busy trying to divert attention from the contents of the article.

Rigid adherence to failed economic philosophies, Imprisoning political opponents, and defiant impoverishment of Cuba are hardly laudable accomplishments.

[Vogon_Glory]

6. The Same Unthinking Mindsets supported Ferdinand Marcos to the Bitter End

The same unthinking mindsets supported former Philippine dictator Ferdinand Marcos to the bitter end. No willingness to examine unpleasant facts, no willingness to see if the rhetoric matched the reality, no willingness to examine cause and effect, but an all-too-apparent willingness to cede rights to free speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, and freedom of association to the demands of some Lider invoking some unspecified bogeyman del dia, whether the bogeyman are Huks in Mindanao or the Miami Mafia. You don't have to be a right-wing chump to be that sort of fool. Plenty of well-meaning progressives fall into that mindset without--THINKING.

:dunce:

:nopity:

[Mika]

7. Some of us have the willingness to have gone to see for themselves.

Interestingly, those who have gone to Cuba and had a look with an unbiased preconception tell a different story than your above uninformed and anti reality biased diatribe.

Trying to taint those of us who have been there or lived there or having done research there with murky parallels to Marcos supporters or whomever is as ridiculous as the rest of your post. Not well thought out, imo.


:dunce: :dunce:

[Vogon_Glory]

8. Hear No Evil, See No Evil, Speak No Evil

I fail to see why the rest of us should give the present-day Republic of Cuba five gold stars for a sterling track record for freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of association, or freedom of worship at the behest of people unwilling to even consider that all might not be hunky-dory in the island republic.

:crazy:

Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. It wasn't that long ago that second-hand bookshelves had fair selections of anti-Castro diatribes written by people who thought that Batista's Cuba was just swell and would have remained so had 'liberals' not imposed that arms embargo on Fulgencio Batista and allowed that bearded guy to take over. THOSE people weren't willing to move beyond the prpaganda, either. The same thought processes are clearly still at work here at DU, howbeit with different premises than those held by the Batistianos and their North American admirers.

[Mika]

9. Evildoers everywhere.

Did you check under the bed? Better do it quick! So you can crawl under and be safe from all of the evil.

:scared: :scared: :scared:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. Uhhh, most of the Left was against Ferdinand Marcos

Try again.

[Joe Chi Minh]

11. Failed economic poliies? what are you talking about, you mutt! You're

talking about your own right wing! "And great was the fall of that house!" and it ain't even started yet. This world is going Socialist, my friends (ironical)! Get over it, cry-babies!

[Zorro]

12. I had no idea that Cubans had the same standard of living as US citizens

since both suffer from the same failed economic policies.

Might as well keep that trade embargo going, since it apparently makes no difference to you.

[Joe Chi Minh]

13. You're obviously unaware oft he number of homeless people you had in the US

even in the relatively good times, but with this growing depression, arising from the loony greed of your out-of-control right-wing (do you have any other?), homelessness is reaching epidemic proportions. Indeed, already even food banks have been unable to cope. And it's not getting better.

I don't think you will find Cubans sleeping rough, or going without food or medical treatment or education, for all the worst endeavours of your monstrous American polity. But go on creating you own fanstasies in the teeth of all the reports of the realities of life in Cuba. You know what you want to believe. Why allow the reality to spoil it?

[Zorro]

14. No poverty or homelessness in Cuba?

I am astounded by the success of the Cuban revolution.

[Joe Chi Minh]

15. As well you might. Poverty is one thing. Destitutiion and homelessness are others.

Nice try though. For a right-winger. When all your basic neeeds are provided, poverty is no big deal. Well, actually, it's a blessing even for the more worldly, if they have a reasonably strong faith.

[Billy Burnett]

16. Hey, KCDM3

Please don't feed the trolls.

When it comes to Cuba, our foxy friend really knows much less than would fit on the head of a pin (and a tiny one at that), and doesn't want to know more.

[Joe Chi Minh]

17. Fine, Billy. I didn't realise. And hi, yourself, amigo.

[Joe Chi Minh]

26. No. I think you are quite wrong here, Billy. This is a golden opportunity to

expose them to shame and ridicule. They are offering us the opportunity. The least we can do is to oblige.

They are terrified all over the developed world that the people who did most of he developing are about to move sharply to the left, maybe hard left, and that is why these bizarre posts are appearing. It's happening in the UK in the press - which could not be more "bent" - as well.

Instead of just staying mum and hoping for the best, they're trying the old farcical propaganda that have served them so well, and actually drawing attention to some of the very best achievements of the left. Go for lives, Dumbos.

[Zorro]

18. Hmmm. So the Cubans are poor but happy under the 50 year dictatorship

No doubt you and Billy are likewise smitten with the blessings of the North Korean lifestyle.

[Judi Lynn]

19. At least one of the posters you're attempting to ridicule has been back and forth to Cuba

many, many times, has close friends there now. I've known of this guy since probably 1999, or 2000, along with many others.

You really are well out of your depths.

[Zorro]

20. And yet another apologist of the 50 year Cuban dictatorship shows up

and attempts to sidetrack the discussion away from the contents of the original article.

[Joe Chi Minh]

21. Read the Beatitudes, you hapless mutt. Something is eating away at your soul

at the thought that other people can be happy with the necessitites of life and little more. It's you problem, fortunately. Not the Cubans.

I know most Americans would prefer to live in Cuba, all found, than in a tent city - which is what looks to be on the cards for all too many Americans, thanks to your rapacious, deranged right-wing politics.

[Zorro]

23. Your defense of slavery hardly qualifies you as the voice of progressivism

Slaves "can be happy with the necessities of life and little more" is the slavemaster argument.

And your "knowledge" is suspect if you "know" "most Americans would prefer to live in Cuba...", where they would be happy getting their government-provided mango every other day.

[Bacchus39]

24. hahaha ain't that the truth n/t

n

[Joe Chi Minh]

25. You live in a total fantasy land. Enormous numbers of Americans

are now either homeless and/or jobless and one or two cheques away from homelessness, while holding down three jobs just to keep the wolf from the door - and have been for some years now.

YOU LIVE IN A COUNTRY WHERE THERE ARE VERY MANY PEOPLE LIVING IN DIRE POVERTY, MUTLEY, AND YOU THINK THEY WOULDN'T WANT A ROOF OVER THEIR HEAD, FOOD ON THE TABLE AND FREE HEALTH CARE!

You are too stupid to be posting here. You are a living insult to a vast number of American people! And a disgrace to the human race.

[Bacchus39]

27. why would Cubans then risk their lives to come here? or people from other countries?

I don't see Americans emigrating to Cuba for their $20 a month.

Zorro was right, slaves were not satisfied with their masters providing for their basic needs and little else.

[Joe Chi Minh]

29. Because they're the more materialistic and venal types.

[Bacchus39]

30. and good for them I say. remember, slaves basic needs were met yet happiness

eluded them. selfish bastards.

[Joe Chi Minh]

32. Then why don't you feed clothe and house your own slaves, Dumbo?

The only way your poor can escape from you is by signing up for the armed forces and losing their rights as citizens.

At least slaves only had limbs amputated for running away. These guys are trying to serve their country the best they can; making the best of a bad job, and yet they're coming home to the US and UK - those who are not killed - as multiple amputees, as well as psycho-spiritually broken.

[Bacchus39]

34. if not everyone can be rich, then everyone must be poor. is that correct?

you are the one advocating the "basic needs" argument.

[Joe Chi Minh]

36. Do you believe in Christianity, because at the moment I don't understand

why you don't share Christ's contempt for money and a disposable income.

[Billy Burnett]

49. the "basic needs" argument. Read this - Meeting basic needs would be a fabulous gift

The ignorant Cubaphobia in this thread is a putrid heap of garbage! :puke:

Meeting basic needs would be a fabulous gift
http://www.miamiherald.com/living/story/826632.html

Every day is a struggle for Josefina Tello, a single mother of three.

In 1997, Tello was in a car accident that left her then 2-month-old son, Luis, in a coma for three weeks. Doctors recommended Tello pull her baby off life support because the damage was too great.

''They told me that even if he were to live, he would be a vegetable,'' said Tello, 34, of Goulds. ``As a mother, you don't think that way. You just want your child to have a chance at life.''

Though Luis, now 11, survived, he has had several complications from his injuries, including autism, blindness and was wheelchair-bound until he was 5.

Tello herself is not well; she has failed liver function and undergoes four-hour dialysis treatments three times a week. The treatments make her bones and teeth ache, and she has developed infections from her dialysis ports.

It is a struggle to support not only Luis, but her other two children, Bianca, 18, and Dimius, 17. For 10 years she worked at a plant nursery, but about eight years ago she stopped working because of her dialysis treatments. She does small gardening jobs to augment her income.

''After dialysis I feel weak and tired,'' Tello said. ``I cannot interact with my family. I cannot do anything.''

Her faith helps her cope.

''She has a very positive attitude,'' said Marta Avalos, a family service counselor at the Redlands Christian Migrant Association, who has known Tello for 18 years. ``Despite her condition, she keeps fighting and finding ways to move ahead.''

Tello is uninsured, but receives treatment at Jackson Memorial Hospital at minimal cost because she previously worked and paid taxes, she said.

But not everything is paid for. She needs a new port to replace the one that is above her heart -- a procedure that costs at least $400. That amount, however, is more than one month's rent, and Tello is at least two months behind on payments and worries about being evicted from her two-bedroom home.

With electricity, car and water bills accumulating, Tello has put off her medical needs. She takes medication to lower her blood pressure and reduce her liquid retention, but she's concerned about the prescription costs, not all of which are covered by government assistance.

To help support the family, Bianca has worked odd jobs since she was 12. She now works 10-hour shifts waiting tables at Los Aztecas Restaurant in Florida City.

As a result of her job, Bianca didn't finish high school. She would like to earn her degree through an online GED program and get a day job as a secretary and spend nights with her mother and brother. But the test costs $100.

Dimius, meanwhile, is in the Dade Juvenile Detention Center, where he awaits trial in January on charges of shoplifting video games from Wal-Mart, Tello said.

''He's a good boy, but got caught up in the wrong crowd,'' she says.

Tello came to the United States from Michoacn, Mexico, when she was 16, and became a mom shortly after. By 24, she was raising the three children on her own.

Though Tello puts her children's interests before her own -- she sleeps on the living room couch and lets them have the bedrooms -- she would like to be healthy so she can give them a stable home. Tello needs $400 to pay for her medical procedure, approximately $800 to get current with rent and utility bills, and $100 for her daughter to take the GED.

''You have to have faith,'' she said. ``No matter what happens or how bad it gets, you have to know that God is there.''

This type of hardship heaped upon heartbreak just doesn't happen in Cuba.

I have been there many times and have seen it. I also live in Miami, where the desperation from poverty is extreme! And deadly.

This story is a tiny grain on a large beach of sand of Americans not meeting their basic needs. Thousands upon thousands die every year because of it.


The squirming worms who show up like clockwork to bash Cuba are so out of fucking touch with the reality in their own country, it is astoundingly ignorant.

[Joe Chi Minh]

31. Then why aren't you providing for the basic needs of the multitude of Americans

sleeping in shelters, relying on ever less "liquid" food banks, and giving comparable health care with that received by the Cubans, and paying for the education of tehir children to the highest levels of their abilities? They must be you very own neglected slaves. Well, well... And you're so shameless....

Oh. I forgot about those you've unjustly imprisoned and are battening on, even after they leave jail. For that you'll rot in Hell.

[Bacchus39]

33. well, the US isn't perfect now is it. but providing shelters and food banks certainly

are for providing for basic needs.


on the other hand, providing for a graduate degree, or having a computer with internet access is not among the basic human needs that you profess. yet it seems you have a computer anyway.

[Joe Chi Minh]

35. If you think my life depends on it, you're even madder than I thought.

Heck, even under Battista, most of the poorer folk probably had palm-leaf shacks of their own!

No, the US isn't perfect, but it would be nice if everyone had the bare necessities for human dignity, including a home of their own. The New Guinea hunter-gathers all have homes of their own. How is that? Could it be that they recognise the worth and dignity of each other from the head man down?

[Bacchus39]

37. or they recognized that when it rains you get wet if outside

and most societies evolve.

sorry, but human nature is that you strive for more than mere survival. I know the slaves and Cubans are greedy, but then again, the Castro boys and yourself don't live within the means you believe is adequate for all the rest.

[Joe Chi Minh]

38. So your society you're so comfortable with doesn't even look after its own people

as well their forbears looked after their slaves! Well, well.... And you had the audacity to adduce slaves in support of your argument. Such blindness is difficult to comprehend. Trawling dumpsters for a bite to eat trumpets our freedoms so graphically, doesn't it?

[Zorro]

39. Please allow me to introduce myself

I am someone you would be well advised to not gratuitously insult.

For I will lay your soul to waste.

You have been warned.

Punk.

[Joe Chi Minh]

42. Love the pompous, narcissistic intro. If you only knew how childish you sounded,

you cowardly, wee low-life. Can't take the heat, eh? Run out of arguments? Obviously, you're already toast. Clear off. You've no place here. Free Republic needs you.

[Zorro]

43. As a working class hero, I have been occupied with other affairs

I'm certain the concepts of "work" and "job" are foreign to you, since no doubt you are on the dole.

However, "idiocy", "hypocrisy", and "laziness" must certainly be familiar terms to you, since you clearly demonstrate those attributes.

Tell us again your defense of slavery, III -- you've made it blatantly obvious you're a third-rate mind, having even labelled yourself so.

[Joe Chi Minh]

28. Look here's a golden opportunity for you to learn something, apart from how

ridiculous you are. That goes for you too, bacchus, if you can drag yourself away from your bacchanalia.

http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2007/01/happy_without_m.html

[Bacchus39]

22. and if you aspire to more than basic needs, build a raft n/t

d

[Lydia Leftcoast]

41. Actually, the more apt comparison is to other Latin American countries:

Haiti, Honduras, Dominican Republic, Guatemala...

[dipsydoodle]

10. Hmm.

or read come to that.

[Joe Chi Minh]

44. These snide anti-Castro posts here put me in mind of the sarcastic

question Christ put to the Pharisees (who didn't like the anti-right wing economic accusations he had been levelling at them): "I have done many good deeds since I was among you. For which of these do you wish to kill me?"

Not difficult to read the same dialogue between Castro (tacit on his part) and his critics, formally atheist though he is, is it?

[Zorro]

45. The Adoration of the Fidelistas

Comparing Fidel to Christ is identical to the same type of uncritical adulation Republicans held for Bush.

It’s a very disturbing correlation that is notoriously common among thick-skulled gits who are looking for someone to give them direction.

Who would Jesus imprison?

[EFerrari]

46. LOL! Not it's not at all. You'd do better to ask, who do we have imprisoned

and how embarrassing would it be to release zombies we have tortured for years and who now cannot be seen by the world.

Pobre.

[Zorro]

47. Cuban Government Marks Human Rights Day with Repression

<snip>

"...The Cuban government arrested more than 30 people in the days leading up to International Human Rights Day, according to press accounts and Cuban human rights groups. Many were reportedly arrested as they tried to travel to Havana to participate in marches and other activities planned for December 10, the 60th anniversary of the signing of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights..."

"...The Cuban government continues to restrict nearly all avenues of political dissent, strictly limiting freedom of expression, association, assembly, movement, and the press. Cuba’s laws and state-controlled institutions provide the foundation for these violations of basic rights, and criminal prosecutions, detentions, harassment, and surveillance are commonly used to repress opposition. In addition to dissidents arrested in the last several days, more than 200 people are incarcerated in Cuba for political reasons..."

"...“This has become a pattern: the government of Cuba commemorates the Universal Declaration of Human Rights by violating its fundamental principles,” said Vivanco."

<snip>

More at: http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/12/11/cuba-free-dissidents-now

How wonderful for the Cuban government to celebrate the spirit of the season -- by arresting human rights organizers.

Let's hear more hypocritical Christ-like comparisons, Fidel worshipers.

[Joe Chi Minh]

51. That is such good news! Please let it be true. Don't disappoint me, Raoul.

Please don't let me read it's just more of their shameless propaganda, when trade union leaders and innocent villagers are being murdered by right-wing misgovernments in Central and South America - and have been for so very, very long, with the (darkness visible) blessings of our friends here, no doubt.

[Zorro]

53. Applauding the arrest of human rights organizers is a blatant sign of your hypocrisy

Your continual wanking over the actions of the Cuban government against its citizens exposes you as the authoritarian-loving halfwit you are.

[Joe Chi Minh]

54. Because people call themselves or are called by interested parties,

human rights organisers, doesn't make them so, foul mouth. With so much murder and mayhem having thrived for so long on the South American continent, you'd have thought they'd have considered themselves better employed there than pandering to the Neocons' agenda.

[Vogon_Glory]

48. I've Come To See It As A Given...

I've come to see uncritical adulation of Fidel Castro, the Cuban Revolution and the direction it took since coming to power as givens here in this forum, however thoroughly I disagree and disapprove of such mindsets and intellectual processes.

Some of the Repugs wised up as to the nature of today's Republican Party after the effects of Bill Clinton's holding actions against the effects of Republican social darwinism faded after the GOP got control of both the Legislative and Executive branches of the US federal government and they found themselves holding the short end of the stick.

My hopes for similar intellectual enlightenments on the parts of DU's hard-core "Sandalista" revolution groupies are slowly fading away.

:argh:

However, I still believe the truth should continue to play a role in all serious political discussions.

:dem:

[Joe Chi Minh]

50. Ever heard of Hell, Oh foolish one? You will do. Be sure of that.

For every child who dies of starvation in South America, you and your kind will personally be held reponsible by the Almighty. How could it, in all justice, be otherwise?

[Zorro]

52. Matthew 7:1 -- "Judge not, that ye be not judged."

You are obviously profoundly ignorant of the teachings of Jesus.

Mindless condemnation of others is a common trait of sanctimonious, self-righteous religious twits that are too dull to recognize their own lack of intelligence.

You probably even managed to flunk Sunday School. Go read your Bible with your eyelids open this time, you phony Christian.

[Joe Chi Minh]

55. In Luke 6:37, it is clear that Christ was not talking about God's own eschatological

judgment in that passage as I was (it is also clear that you right-wingers are all complicit in the mass-murder of innumerable poor people in South America and in other parts of the globe), but about our human propensity for conflating our judgment of an individual (in the sense of assessment - to evangelise we must make straightforward, intellectual judgements in order to speak to our hearer's condition) and condemning him on grounds of our personal pique - willing the person in question to be condemned, rather than wishing for their reform and salvation.

I would far rather you were not as deeply inured to such serious sin as you appear to be; nor could my judgment of you, nor any other man's, consign you to Hell. My judgment/assessment of you is a common sense extrapolation from Scripture.

Were you less woefully ignorant of the Scriptures, despite your masquerade, you would recall that John the Baptist was imprisoned because he judged and condemned Herod for his adultery with his wife's sister. Yet Christ said of him that John was not just a prophet but something greater than a prophet. Do you really suppose John would not have hoped that Herod would repent, however unlikely he might have viewed the possibility?

The thing about you is that, even if you were as familiar with the Scriptures as you'd like to portray, your exegesis of their implications for us - since it is so woeful in such a fundamental matter as mass-murder* - would hardly be likely to be anything but deplorable; In a different context, risible.

*These people who have been starved to death in South America and elsewhere by your version of capitalism, were "other Christs", in whom the Holy Spirit lived. You are deicides, as well.

[Zorro]

56. More religious psychobabble, blaming me for not solving the problem of world hunger

You should consult a mental health professional.

Why don't you grab a machete and head for the sugar cane fields in Cuba to do your part for "la revolucion" for 20 bucks a month?

[Joe Chi Minh]

57. My! My! Idiotic and self-pitying as ever. All of a sudden, you're sneering and snarling

at what you now call "religious psychobabble", because your familiarity with Scripture has been exposed as no more than a vacuous ploy.

It's all my fault because you resent and agitate against a regime that helps hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of poor people (the Lord's anointed), including elsewhere in South America, to survive, and even live with a modicum of happiness and dignity - in a continent where such elementary possessions have been and remain in very short supply, precisely as a result of Cuba's US enemies.

Incidentally, if I were in good health, I'd love to cut cane for whatever the going rate is. I always loved hard physical work, all the better if it was piece-work. What's more, I'd know I'd never be homeless, hungry and without medical aid to speak of, as all too many of your compatriots are.

[Zorro]

58. You're the one comparing Castro to Christ

Pretty much sums up the definition of delusional religious whackjob in my dictionary. No doubt you say three Hail Fidels before you go to bed.

Got news for your third-rate mind, III -- the US has provided much more humanitarian aid over the years than your adored Cuban government.

[Billy Burnett]

59. Hey foxy. You said you wanted to discuss the article you posted.

Yet, all I see that you've posted in analysis is ... well ... nothing. Nothing but hurling insults and bluster reminiscent of a schoolyard brat.

How about this from the article ...

World Bank statistics show that half of Cuban children were enrolled in school in 1950. Now, all of them are. Cuba more than quadrupled the number of teachers.

Actually, the Miami Herald downplays the real accomplishment - in 1950 less than half were ever enrolled in any school and by 1970 every child in Cuba was enrolled and staying in school. Anyway ...

Would you not admit that this is, in and of itself, a major accomplishment for any country to be able to achieve?

(Don't worry. I won't call you a Fidelista if you happen to think that, obviously, it is.)

[Zorro]

60. Actually I agree there have been notable accomplishments

Literacy and the availability of health care have indeed improved over the past 50 years for the Cuban population.

The debate centers on the real social and economic costs and the methods to achieve these objectives. It's quite similar to the debate in the US over the issue of security versus fundamental civil rights.

I believe that the Castros have needlessly impoverished the Cuban population, who have my sympathies. And I don't see any real change happening until Fidel and his brother are gone from the scene, because there is too much historical baggage. I remember quite well the events of 1962, and that it was Fidel who enabled that confrontation.

I also believe that open debate of important issues is key to a vibrant and healthy society, and that the suppression of free speech leads to institutional government corruption.

I actually prefer to openly debate the issues; however, there is a tendency by some to immediately insult posters with opinions different from their own. And before you make a "pot - kettle - black" comment, an honest review of my postings will reveal that I don't initiate personal insults, and even warn posters to not continue to do so after their first shot -- and if they choose to ignore that advice, then I will respond in my own fashion.

So if you also prefer open debate, then let's debate and stay focused on the issues. If you prefer personal insults, then don't be surprised if there's a rise in your blood pressure.

[Vogon_Glory]

61. Good Post and Good Points

Good post and good points.

The desire of Cuban patriots to free Cuba from being a US neo-colony may be a laudable goal, but what were the REAL social and economic costs? That seems to be a taboo topic on this forum.

During the last eight years, we Yumas had a demonstration of what happens when important issues aren't discussed or debated. We are coming out of one of the very worst and corrupt presidential administrations in US history. Does anyone here want to claim that the Boosh administration was free from institutionalized government corruption?

Does anyone seriously think that Team Shrub was interested in fostering real discussion of its policies?

The Havana government's claims that the Cuban revolution is under attack is flimsier than it has been since the Cold War. No matter what the malice of the Miami expats and the outgoing Boosh regime may be, the fact remains that the US doesn't have the troops to spare to invade and occupy Cuba.

Another Sandalista taboo word seems to be 'Liberty.'

Why should Cuba be exempted from the process of debate or discussion?

:dem:

[Billy Burnett]

62. It isn't.

Why should Cuba be exempted from the process of debate or discussion?

Why do you think that it is?

Understanding that no nation/gov has squeaky clean hands, Cuba does have vibrant processes of debate and discussion. I have seen it personally, as have other DU members. And please don't haul out the same old AI HRW reports, because they accuse the US of obscenities on a vastly larger (and international) scale and yet there is still adequate room for debate and discussion (although it isn't really readily available to all).

Cubans have continually openly debated and discussed their predicaments and have formed the infrastructure they wanted and needed via building a responsive government - especially well considering the comparisons with other poor small Caribbean and Lat Am nations.

They do have good universal health care (although somewhat impeded by US sanctions on med suppliers).

They have high quality schools with more dedicated teachers per student than any other nation.

They do have a human right to housing, enshrined in their constitution, so that even in a serious downturn or crisis like the USSR/Russian withdrawal as their #1 trade partner/creditor NO Cuban was foreclosed on their housing. Simply put, there is near zero homelessness in Cuba.


I wonder how you think that these practices were put into place without debate or discussion?

[Vogon_Glory]

63. Really-Oh?, Truly-Oh?

'Cubans have continually openly debated and discussed their predicaments and have formed the infrastructure they wanted and needed via building a responsive government'

And they have these discussions in public? Where ordinary Cubans can actually give their opinion without fear of party or government reprisal if they say something that the powers-that-be don't like? And you expect the rest of us to BELIEVE that?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


I find that claim to be every bit as hard to swallow as Team Shrub's so-called "free speech zones" at least 1/4 mile distant from GOPster events as being genuinely free speech.

[Billy Burnett]

64. Yes they do.

Cubans vigorously debate politics day in day out. They also vigorously select their representatives in government, and they hold them accountable. That is just how it is that they have the above mentioned infrastructure. If anyone feels that they can do better then they can initiate a recall or choose to run for office themselves. And they do. They don't need permission from any party or any blessing from anyone but the people - who attend lengthy and intense, sometimes fractious, caucuses to select the candidates of their choice. It is at these sessions where the public negotiates and barter and bargain to garner votes for the selection of the slate. Sometimes they last many days, sometimes it goes smoothly. After the slate is selected (about six weeks before the election) there is the general election for each office, from among the candidates who are running for each seat. Votes are cast for a large slate of candidates seeking many offices. Paper anonymous ballots. Collected, counted and verified under public scrutiny. Winners are announced and results posted. The next step in Cuba's system is the Ratification election. This election requires each winning candidate to be ratified to their position by a majority (at least fifty percent +1) of the voters in each district. It is this extra democratic step in Cuba that is often referred to, by anti Cuba propagandists, sloganeers, and those who aren't aware of this process, as "Cuba's one candidate" election system. Many Cubans are politically active, and they participate from the grass roots up.

I have been there a bunch of times, and I've discussed this topic in-depth with many of my Cuban friends in Cuba.

---

Speaking of free speech zones, the Castro brothers were never separated from Cubans in public. He never wore a bullet proof vest nor spoke behind bullet proof glass at any rally. Fidel drove himself around in an open jeep until he busted his knee a couple of years ago. He'd drive all over the place and stop at will to meet and greet and look at ongoing projects and schools. He is famous for it. Raul in much the same way.

Despite accusations by certain knuckle draggers, I'm no Fidelista, but this is an accurate observation.