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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 08:16 AM
Original message
while we're obsessing about Chavez...
I have no problem with people having opinions about Hugo Chavez, or having interest in the internal affairs of Venezuela. Nothing wrong with being interested about the world, right?

I wonder, though, why it is that so many people do have such an interest in Venezuela, especially since there isn't comparable interest in other countries in the region.

You'd think people would be interested in Colombia, since we have much closer ties with that country than any other country down their. Colombia is the third-largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid, after all.

oh, maybe that's exactly the reason we're not talking about this stuff.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-gonzalez21-2010jan21,0,2706581.story?track=rss

Just weeks ago, Colombian human rights activist Principe Gabriel Gonzalez Arango was making the rounds in Washington -- meeting with senior State Department officials, testifying before Congress -- and being feted in New York for his work on behalf of political prisoners and the steep personal price he has paid for his advocacy. Now he is facing seven years in prison.

Gonzalez, who had been providing inmates with educational and social services, was arrested in 2006 and charged with the standard smear against activists who are thorns in the government's side: being a member of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, a drug-trafficking terrorist group. The FARC, which has been waging its guerrilla war for 50 years, is so widely loathed that just the allegation of rebel allegiance is life-threatening. More than one human rights activist, although cleared by the courts, has been murdered by vigilantes.

Gonzalez was jailed for 15 months while awaiting trial, then a judge threw out the charges, calling them utterly baseless. The government, however, appealed his acquittal, and a district court overturned the lower court's decision; it sentenced Gonzalez to prison. Days later, he lost his appeal of that ruling when Colombia's Supreme Court refused to hear his case.

Although Gonzalez's particular plight has become well known in human rights circles, there have been thousands like him -- union organizers and indigenous-rights advocates, farm and land reformers, lawyers who expose the links between elected officials and right-wing death squads, all subject to arbitrary incarceration and imprisonment on fabricated grounds.

(...)
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demoleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. it's mostly chavez banging our democracies once or twice a week...
Edited on Sun Jan-24-10 08:21 AM by demoleft
...i'm tired of hearing him slamming US, for example, and not a word on china, big oil customer.
it stinks.

he bursts out and yells as he wants. and of course, we do the same.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
2.  yeah that's it. The continual barrage of Chavez propaganda flooding the airwaves
compels you. Of course. So basically you don't give a flying fuck about human rights, your concern is that Chavez dares to insult The Greatest Nation on Earth Ever.
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demoleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. i'm posting continually about china, iran, cuba and also US, italy and europe in general.
and often about human rights and freedom of speech.

it's all on the internet. just google "demoleft" if you have an interest in what my "concerns" are.
if not, wash your mouth before talking about them.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Maybe Chavez doesn't criticize China because China
has never tried to kill him and isn't attacking him or his government now.

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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Half the frickin' posts on DU are "slamming US".
But Chavez has your panty in a bunch.

Wow.
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corpseratemedia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
4. if Chavez let his countrie's oil fields be completely privatized our oligarchy would love him.


Columbia sounds like our future thanks to the reactionary papist (the 2k old corporation) roberts decision.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. and nobody would know Chavez's name
he could do all the crap Chavez is doing, and much more, and if he were "on our side" then nobody would know or care who the fuck the president of Venezuela off all places was.
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
6. Very good question. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. You nailed it, Enrique. n/t
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-24-10 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
9. I am very concerned about Colombia and often post about the Colombian death squads
who they are killing, the ties to the government and the military, the displacement of 2-3 million peasant farmers in Colombia, Colombia's 40+ year civil war, the US $6 BILLION in military aid, the corrupt, failed, murderous US "war on drugs," the big US military buildup in Colombia and other Colombia-related subjects--as well as posting about developments in Bolivia, Ecuador, Paraguay, Argentina, Brazil, Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala and other countries. I don't do many OPs. But I do a lot of comment on threads posted by others.

I probably post the most about Chavez and Venezuela, but I have some very good reasons for doing so:

1. The intense demonization of Chavez in our media. I feel a very strong desire to counter this demonization, and to examine it closely--as it manifests in the corpo-fascist media and here at DU. There is so much disinformation to counter! It is really quite incredible. Chavez is clearly a target--he might as well have a CIA bull's eye on his back--of the US State Department and its corporate media echo chamber. And we also have to ask WHY. Intense, relentless, psyops/disinformation campaigns like this are generally the preliminary to war. And there is much to be worried about in that respect. As a citizen of the country that slaughtered a hundred thousand innocent people in one week of bombing alone, to steal their oil, I am naturally concerned to do what I can to prevent that from ever happening again. I am extremely concerned about the US military buildup in areas adjacent to Venezuela's main oil reserves, facilities and shipping (Colombia, the Caribbean off the Gulf of Venezuela).

2. The Venezuelan people were the first to throw off U.S. dictation and domination, with their remarkable leftist democracy movement, and were the actors of perhaps the most important event in Latin American history: The reversal of the 2002 coup. That amazing event inspired and was the omen for the leftist democracy movement that swept the region during the 2002-2010 period.

3. Venezuela is far ahead of the other leftist governments and peoples, time-wise, in implementing new ideas that support and encourage grass roots democracy and the social responsibility of government. They have made great advances in education, health care, projects like the community councils and "missions," land reform and other areas. It is good to study these ideas as they work out in the practical world, not just as theories or suggestions or hopes, but as real policies that have to be detailed out and workable.

4. The Chavez government has been very innovative and far-thinking on regional political/economic integration and of smaller countries banding together to exercise collective clout in their own interest, against the bully behemoth to the north. They have a "raise all boats" philosophy at home and in the region. They pretty much created the Bank of the South and the ALBA trade group, and also contributed to the formation of UNASUR, the all-South America prototype for a "common market." This notion--of regional political/economic integration--is not new, but it has been mordant since Simon Bolivar and his dream of the United States of South America. It has been rekindled. It has been embraced by all of the new leftist governments and leaders. It has influenced policy in the continent's giant, Brazil. These ideas, fostered by Venezuela from the beginning, need to be made to work. They are the only hope for a prosperous, democratic future for Latin America, which will otherwise be converted back into a chattel for the U.S. Others are innovating, too, but this is just one more reason of many why I so often comment on Venezuela. I want these ideas to succeed.

5. Venezuela holds several lessons for those of us in the US who see our democracy being destroyed. For instance, I often cite Venezuela's transparent voting system (as opposed to our own), and also the importance of grass roots organization in Venezuela, as the second key to electing good leaders, and the importance of thinking big--not an insurance run health care system in which the poor will be screwed once again, but free, universal health care for all: not predatory capitalism with fast diminishing social benefits, but socialism with a very well regulated, socially responsible capitalist sector. Think big! The Chavez government's and the Venezuelan peoples' battle against domineering, rightwing corporate media--which is portrayed as anti-free speech here--has made me realize that we, too, must think big, not just asking our corporate media to be fair--with letters and emails they never read--but requiring it of them, which is our right as a sovereign people. If we want free speech for everyone, not just for corporate moguls, we have to use the clout of government to get it. We have to assert our sovereignty.

-----


In responding to the plight of Colombian activists like Principe Gabriel Gonzalez Arango--and, as you point out, so many others--thousands--I think it's equally important to expose the US complicity in Colombian atrocities and to counter the US government and media's incredible slanders against Venezuela, a country that respects human rights--because the US is pitting these countries against each other. I don't ignore the atrocities in Colombia. I do what I can to expose them. But this is the kind of government that the US wants to impose on Venezuela, and just imposed on Honduras.

One other thing about Colombia: The atrocities in Colombia are more well known here than is Venezuela's good human rights record and amazing achievements in education, poverty elimination and democracy itself. I've seen many articles in the US press about the death squads in Colombia--not enough certainly, and not sufficiently connecting the dots to US military aid, but surprisingly many. And I have seen none--zero, zilch, NONE!--acknowledging Venezuela's social, economic, democratic and human rights achievements. It is ALL uniformly negative coverage of Venezuela. We need to defend the good as well as condemn the bad. I defend the good in other countries as well--in Bolivia, Ecuador, wherever I see positive developments. But Venezuela has been particularly demonized as a set up to use Colombia to destroy Venezuela's democracy. There are several ways in which the US puppets running Colombia are already doing this, and I fear there is much more and much worse to come. We need to support democracy and try to end our country's support for the Colombian fascists, narco-thugs and militarists.

Finally, I see NUMEROUS posts at DU, every day, by rightwing operatives, trumpeting corpo-fascist 'news' hit pieces on Chavez. This has to be countered--it has to be balanced with alternative views and above all with facts. The facts--universally ignored and black-holed by the corpo-fascist media, and by their trumpeters here at DU--favor Chavez and his government. But almost nobody in the US knows them. I hate these kind of lies--the "Big Lie" kind of lies which were used to slaughter so many innocent people in Iraq. I really hate them. And I passionately believe in democracy. I believe that ordinary people are fully capable of self-government, and that democracy is the best form of government, but they desperately accurate information to do so. And we are not getting anything even close to accurate information about Venezuela nor about the leftist democracy movement in Latin America of which Venezuela is an important leader.

Our government is certainly capable of instigating unjust war--and they certainly look like that's what they have in mind for Venezuela. This could happen to Venezuela--in our name, using our money--with most Americans not having a clue about what the US is destroying in that country. Information is needed to build a movement against such a war, and against other gross injustices of US policy in Latin America. They demonize Chavez to knock it all down at once--the entire democracy movement that has blossomed there. They used their bogeyman Chavez against Mel Zelaya and his supporters, who are now being murdered, just like in Colombia. They have used their bogeyman Chavez to keep El Salvador out of ALBA. They are using it to slander and intimidate and "divide and conquer." So it is not an obsessive thing to be concerned about this and to try to counter it.
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Flatulo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
11. For me, the interest is not so much him, but the praise that some DUers
Edited on Mon Jan-25-10 08:53 AM by Flatulo
heap on the economic system that he has put into place there.

Yes, he has no doubt helped the poor and downtrodden in his country, but do we really understand the long-term consequences of the nationalization programs he has instituted? Having vast oil reserves can mask a lot of systemic problems that would otherwise wreck his economy.

Whenever there is any kind of negative reporting about events there, the usual suspects show up to blame poor translation, RW corporo-fascist rags, the vast RW conspiracy, etc.

There are simply some things the private sector does better than the government, yet he seems determined to drive the private sector out of his country, and the DU cheerleading squad dances a jig at his every nationalization move. They desperately want his policies to succeed so that they can point to his successes when the government here begins the march towards socialism.

So it's not Chavez who'se amusing - it's the DU cheerleaders.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Given that the media campaign against the Chavez government
Edited on Mon Jan-25-10 04:37 PM by EFerrari
is the most sustained one I've seen in my adult life, I think you are mistaken.

There are weekly or even biweekly stories that 9 of 10 times turn out to be sensational bs. I don't know very much about economics and so I usually hang back on those threads and try to learn something. But, seriously, Chavez has been accused of everything but stealing your granny. Stealing an oil rig, stealing a hotel, accusing the US of attacking Haiti with an earthquake. It's simply amazing the things people will believe that are utter bs and should be obvious.

And then there are those threads like one of the most recent ones about protests where the OP basicially salivates for repression. It's just weird. Why would anyone wish repression on the Venezuelen populace?


ETA: And, you bet I'm a cheerleader for the Chavez government and for all the leftist governments taking Latin America back. They are not perfect, they are not saints but they're a damn sight better than living under puppet regimes that kill the people and give away their resources for a small fee.
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Flatulo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. I can't speak to the veracity of the media coverage of Chavez, but
it has been my observation that the mainstream news outlets seem to piss off both the right and the left equally.

This tells me that they are, on balance, getting things about right. Everyone's version of reality seems to be a little bit different, so reality itself may be somewhat subjective.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. There is such a thing as shared reality. In shared reality
Edited on Mon Jan-25-10 11:28 PM by EFerrari
there are weekly (at minimum) stories that set out to make Chavez look nutty -- just as the media does that to Howard Dean and did it to Al Gore. And these are stories whose veracity can be tracked down, like the latest one that attributed a Russian Navy report about earthquake machines to Chavez. That's got to get some kind of award. :)
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Flatulo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. At any rate, I enjoy reading your posts. You've certainly given me a
different perspective from what I read in the newspapers.

And you always manage to remain civil - a rare talent.

Thanks for your replies.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-29-10 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-29-10 09:38 PM
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Nationalization has been part of Venezuela's history for decades.
The way it was used previously funneled it into the hands of a very small group of elitists. During Hugo Chavez' administration the nation's profits have been used for the greater good of ALL Venezuelans. He was elected because this was what he promised during his campaigns for the Presidency.

If he is replaced it will STILL be the direction the majority of Venezuelans want to go.
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Flatulo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I believe that I understand his thought process - I just wonder if
this process is sustainable. Having oil can mask a lot of the underlying symptoms of a sick economy. Look at the ME countries for example - they produce absolutely nothing except petroleum products for export. When those resources deplete, it will be back to the stone age. You have to have a highly diversified economy to weather consumption paradigms.

There's another potential problem - tyranny of the majority, I believe it's called. If the downtrodden of Venezuela, which seems to be a large majority, vote to keep taking more from from the people (the elites, as you call them) who know how to make things and run the factories, what happens when those people leave for greener pastures? Is there any evidence that this is happening?

Everything I read seems to indicate that Chavez has nothing but contempt for the technical/ownership class in his country. He is either going to squeeze them dry or just plain drive them away.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-29-10 09:36 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-29-10 09:34 PM
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