Tweaking the language (false positives and common graves)

[rabs]

N.N. (Nebulous Nonsense)

Last month JM Santos chose a through-and-through uribista politician named Rodrigo Rivera to be his defense minister. (Rivera had strongly advocated for a third term for uribe and is a strong backer of uribe's "democratic security" doctrine that continues under Santos.)

Couple of days ago, Rivera called for abolishing the terms "false positives" and "common graves."

He suggested "false positives" should now be "homicidio en persona protegida" -- "homicide of a protected person."

"Fosas comunes" -- common graves -- should be "cementerios legales con N.N." -- "legal cemeteries with N.N."

N.N. is commonly used in Latin America when a victim is buried with no identification; from Latin Nomen Nominandum (Name Hitherto Unknown)

Article in Semana (Spanish)

http://www.semana.com/noticias-politica/ministro-defensa-rodrigo-rivera-pide-no-usar-expresion-falsos-positivos/144615.aspx

----------------

Rivera is talking N.N. -- Nebulous Nonsense

[Judi Lynn]

1. Crazy! The original terms remind us too much of "human rights violations!"

Isn't it bizarre when acts like massacres and savage public tortures in Colombia have already been termed "human rights violations?"

Sounds like someone cutting in line at the post office!

Sounds as if Rodrigo Rivera is attempting to reform public perception of what his cohorts, and predecessor have done in Colombia, maybe feeling the noose of guilt a little too tight around his neck.

What an unexpected, (that's for damned sure!) surprise it was to see the Colombian Attorney Gemeral is considering doing a better job pursuing extrajuidicial murder cases. As it is, they're just about 0 for 0. Couldn't do much worse. God forbid they prosecute anyone carrying out a targeted assassination of a political "enemy!"

[Bacchus39]

2. yes, because the prosecuter and the justice system are the ones who will make the determination

of whether a cemetery is a mass grave or not. further more "homicide" is certainly more accurate and stronger term than "false positive" in my opinion.

[Judi Lynn]

3. Use of the word "homicide" is an attempt to relabel the savage deliberate crime

against these people they tried to pass off as FARCs,after they killed them, deliberately reffering to them as mere clinical numbers, instead of leaving them in the category by which they are known by the public now, with all the wretched connotations "false positives" carries now, from use over the years. Any fool realizes "false positives" itself is an attempt to conceal the filthy, vicious nature of the murders.

They are deliberate, deceitful, evil acts of cold, filthy murder done ONLY for political purposes. That's all understood NOW under its current camouflage name, "false positives," the government's original deceitful attempt to cover its criminality with innocent, or at least neutral sounding words.

The new Defense Minister hopes to further distance the government from its OWN known record of monstrous criminality.

Doesn't matter, they won't ever fool the human race. We all know what's going on. Only the sociopaths, the depraved, twisted, moral perverts would protect them.

[Bacchus39]

4. in other words false positive means homicide n/t

s

[Judi Lynn]

5. It means military murder of civililians. n/t

[rabs]

6. Recall that the expression "false positives"

was coined when JM Santos was defense minister.

Guess JM is feeling uncomfortable about it now, seeing as how so many officers and soldiers are being tried and convicted for the practice, which carried perks such as promotions, money rewards (like bounties) and other perks.

[Judi Lynn]

7. True! That was the official euphemism from his time as Defense minister.

If I'm not mistaken, they even were given vacation time for killing unarmed civilians, too.

Hope they will be charging more of these idiots for their sadistic murders, as well.

[Bacchus39]

9. there you go!!!! false positive is a euphemism for murder n/t

s

[Peace Patriot]

19. The perversity of these murders by the COLOMBIAN MILITARY to up their "body counts"

--to earn REWARDS, and to impress U.S. senators, who have lavished $7 BILLION on the Colombian military--needs to be emphasized.

They are NOT just homicides. They are a heinous POLICY OF HOMICIDE, COVERUP and DECEPTION by the goddamned army, that WE are funding.

[Bacchus39]

20. please share information that this was military policy

but yes it is murder, deception, and cover up by those responsible

[Bacchus39]

8. no it doesn't, it refers to motive. homicide is the crime

I don't know why you have trouble with the Colombian official labeling it homicide, or murder, rather than false positve. its murder all the same.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bacchus39]

11. you don't know what you're arguing

even you said it was a euphemism for murder. so why not call it what it is as the defense minister said. you are the one apparently wanting to keep using the euphemism.

defending the death squads??? who is doing that??? yep, pure gibberish.

Definition of EUPHEMISM
: the substitution of an agreeable or inoffensive expression for one that may offend or suggest something unpleasant; also : the expression so substituted


a false positive is something that occurs on a pregnancy test.

[Judi Lynn]

12. Take it up with the people in Colombia who started calling them "false positives."

Page last updated at 23:42 GMT, Thursday, 7 May 2009 00:42 UK
Toxic fallout of Colombian scandal
By Jeremy McDermott
BBC News, Medellin

The toxic fallout of a grisly army scandal continues to spread in Colombia, as more soldiers are arrested over their alleged roles.

In recent days another three colonels have been arrested, bringing the total number of military personnel captured to at least 22.

The "false positives" scandal has revealed that the army murdered civilians, who were then dressed in rebel uniforms or given guns. They were then presented as guerrillas or paramilitaries killed in combat.

These allowed units to fabricate results, and officers to gain promotion.

The number of victims is believed to be in the thousands.

"The issue of the false positives puts into doubt the doctrine of the security forces with respect to human rights," said Maria Victoria Llorente, director of the think-tank Foundation Idea for Peace. "This puts at risk a prized value for the military: legitimacy."

More:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8038399.stm

They've been using this term there for years. For you to attempt to use it as some oddball reason to attempt to harrass me is simply odd.

What I said can't be impugned. It's correct. You are simply howling in the dark here.

[naaman fletcher]

13. His point makes total sense.

It's usually easy to tell when you are losing an argument, as you resort to telling someone that their input has no value.

In this case he is pointing out that false positives are murder and being labled as such. I'm not sure why you have a problem with that.

[Judi Lynn]

14. They are deliberate, state-sanctioned military murders of unarmed citizens.

They stand in a class of their own. They should retain the name which has designated them as a separate event for the last years.

Period.

Attempting to detail your view of my "losing an argument" is meaningless, as well.

Their original term is the notorious term by which they have been known and judged for years. They are attempting to deflect the vicious association by trying to lump them in with generic murders. They are NOT generic murders, as everyone knows.

Drop it. There's no future in your attempt to continue a non-discussion. I have covered the valid points. There are no other.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rabs]

16. "False positives" is a term unique to the Colombian military

In my years in Latin America, I never saw the term used in any of the Southern Cone dictatorships.

It is the Colombian military version of the "body count syndrome" that was so used (or abused) by Westmoreland and his generals in the Vietnam war.

Did some research and came up with a good overview of "false positives" in the National Security Archives. (Article by Michael Evans which has some interesting Pdf links to unclassified U.S. State Department cables sent by the U.S. Embassy-Bogota. There is also a declassified CIA cable.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~ snip ~~~~~~~

The earliest record in the Archive’s collection referring specifically to the phenomenon dates back to 1990. That document, a cable approved by U.S. Ambassador Thomas McNamara, reported a disturbing increase in abuses attributed to the Colombian Army. In one case, McNamara disputed the military’s claim that it had killed nine guerrillas in El Ramal, Santander, on June 7 of that year.

The investigation by Instruccion Criminal and the Procuraduria strongly suggests … that the nine were executed by the Army and then dressed in military fatigues. A military judge who arrived on the scene apparently realized that there were no bullet holes in the military uniforms to match the wounds in the victims’ bodies…”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Body count mentalities"
Colombia’s "False Positives" Scandal, Declassified

Documents Describe History of Abuses by Colombian Army

National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 266

Posted - January 7, 2009

Washington, D.C., January 7, 2009 - The CIA and senior U.S. diplomats were aware as early as 1994 that U.S.-backed Colombian security forces engaged in "death squad tactics," cooperated with drug-running paramilitary groups, and encouraged a "body count syndrome," according to declassified documents published on the Web today by the National Security Archive. These records shed light on a policy—recently examined in a still-undisclosed Colombian Army report—that influenced the behavior of Colombian military officers for years, leading to extrajudicial executions and collaboration with paramilitary drug traffickers. The secret report has led to the dismissal of 30 Army officers and the resignation of Gen. Mario Montoya Uribe, the Colombian Army Commander who had long promoted the idea of using body counts to measure progress against guerrillas.

Archive Colombia analyst, Michael Evans, whose article on the matter was published today in Spanish on the Web site of Colombia’s Semana magazine, said that, “These documents and the recent scandal over the still-secret Colombian Army report raise important questions about the historical and legal responsibilities the Army has to come clean about what appears to be a longstanding, institutional incentive to commit murder.”

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB266/index.htm
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"Homicide" or "murder," either way the "false positives" wound up dead at the hands of some of the military and their thuggish para-partners.

[naaman fletcher]

17. thanks for the research,

However, Judi has covered all the valid points already.

[Bacchus39]

18. if they are state sanctioned why are the perpetrators being arrested?

they are not state sanctioned even if you want them to be so you can make a connection to the current and former political leadership. the policy seems similar to that of a bounty hunter. kill the "criminals" and get a reward. further promotion or financial gains were the motive to commit murder by some soldiers.

what is wrong with the defense minister calling them homicides?? that is what they are. he also makes the point that its the justice system that will decide if murder was committed. I don't see what is so offensive about his statements.