The difference between street crime murder and official or RW death squad murder in Latin America.

[Peace Patriot]

RW posters keep pushing the murder rate in Venezuela as their latest anti-Chavez "talking point," and it's true that Venezuelans are gun-lovers, alas, and some of them are lawless. But, with the exception of the RW rich landowner death squads murdering peasant farmers in one area of Venezuela, and the RW "Black Eagle" infiltrators from Colombia, caught in a border area of Venezuela, who were murdering and terrorizing the local community, trying to set up a crime network, the murders in Venezuela's are NOT POLITICAL MURDERS. They are ordinary crimes. Neither the Chavez government, nor the Venezuelan military or security forces, have committed these murders.

The murder crisis in neighboring Colombia, on the other hand, which has a government representing the rightwing elite, allied to the U.S. and supported by $7 BILLION in U.S. military aid, is VERY POLITICAL. Thousands of trade unionists, human rights workers, teachers, journalists, community activists, Indigenous leaders, peasant farmers and others have been murdered FOR THEIR POLITICAL BELIEFS. According to Amnesty International, 92% of the murders of trade unionists in Colombia have been committed by the Colombian military itself (about half) and its closely tied rightwing paramilitary death squads (the other half).

Some 70% of the closest political cohorts of Bush pal Alvaro Uribe, former president of Colombia, are under investigation or already in jail, for ties to the death squads, among other crimes (--illegal domestic spying, drug trafficking, bribery and more). Despite these investigations/prosecutions, almost none of these political murders have been solved.

You might say that it doesn't matter to dead people whether they were murdered for their political beliefs or not. But it DOES matter to society in a most vital and critical way: political murder is a direct assault on democracy itself. It is not mere disorder. It is not mere lawlessness. It is not merely reflective of weak government, poor law enforcement or bad laws. Political murder is an assault on the very idea of government "of, by and for the people." It is thus of far more importance to society, and a far, far worse failure of government, than the mere social problem of a high murder rate.

According to a Jesuit priest in Uribe's home province of Antiquoa, Uribe has been tied to RW death squads from the very beginning of his career. And he was clearly running Colombia as a mob operation, including illegal domestic spying on trade unionists (who were subsequently "hit"), on judges and prosecutors (who received death threats, and whose investigations were being monitored) and on other political "enemies." And, in addition to all the political murders, five MILLION peasant farmers have been driven from their lands, by state terror, and the Colombian military was luring youngsters with offers of jobs, murdering them and dressing their bodies up like FARC guerrillas, to up their "body counts"--the infamous "false positives" scandal.

Several more trade unionists were murdered in Colombia just last week. Also, recently, FOUR legislators resigned from the committee investigating Uribe, with two of them admitting that they resigned because of death threats (with death threats probable in the other resignations). So this Mob is still in place in Colombia.

The murders in Colombia are POLITICAL, and deeply involve elements of Colombia's RW political elite and the Colombian military and their network of death squad enforcers. The motives are political power (via murder and terror) and grievous economic oppression.

On top of everything else, the U.S. government is protecting Uribe. For instance, back in 2009, Uribe in collusion with the U.S. ambassador and the U.S. justice department, extradited 30 death squad witnesses to the U.S. on mere drug charges, and 'buried' them in the U.S. federal prison system (by complete sealing of their cases), out of the reach of Colombian prosecutors and over their objections. The U.S. is also responsible, in my opinion, for the chief spying witness against Uribe absconding from Colombia and receiving instant asylum in the U.S. client state of Panama, also over the objections of Colombian prosecutors.

At least one branch of the Colombian government has been trying to do its job--the judges and the prosecutors--despite on-going interference by this Mob, and despite the U.S. government running interference for this Mob. The U.S. prime motive for doing these and other favors for Uribe is very likely that the Bush Junta was colluding on Uribe's many crimes, and the Obama administration feels obliged to cover that up. But the U.S. government (both Bush and Obama) have also done favors for Chiquita International and Drummond Coal, in cases brought against them here for death squad activity in Colombia. It looks very like political murder, where it conveniences U.S. corporations and war profiteers, is a U.S. government policy. Indeed, the U.S. State Department wrote a letter to the judge in the Drummond Coal case, pressuring the judge not to force Uribe to testify and implying that "national security" is at risk if he does.

So this may be the root problem in Colombia--that it isn't just a heinous RW elite in Colombia, using murder to achieve and retain political/economic power, but that Colombia has been incorporated into a much larger system of murderous control, of vast armaments and bully power: the U.S. war machine.

Santos (Uribe's replacement as president) seems more peace-minded--and possibly more lawful and less corrupt--but he is still a RWer, of the same RW political party as Uribe, and has thus benefitted from the Mob reign of terror over the last decade, and so have numerous others associated with the RW, who fund and support RW causes and politicians--including U.S. corporations and war profiteers, big landowners benefiting from the peasant farmer diaspora, big drug lords benefitting from the same thing, exploiters of Colombian workers and thieves of Colombia's resources. All have on-going benefits from the on-going decimation of trade union leadership by the Colombian military and the RW death squads, and all the other political murders of the advocates of the poor.

RW propagandists dwell on ordinary, street crime murders in Venezuela, to cover up this RW official and paramilitary horror in Colombia--to draw attention away from it--and to hit on Chavez who has not committed any murders--who holds power legitimately, as the result of open, transparent and un-terrorized elections--and who actually doesn't have any direct control over local law enforcement. All he can do are things like creating a national police academy to encourage professionalism in local police forces. He gets blamed for this social problem--for...ahem...NOT being a "strong man" and forcing solutions (like gun control, like the police kicking in doors) on Venezuelans, while yet the RW and its trumpeters in the corporate media keep calling him a "dictator." It would be laughable if it weren't for what is going in neighboring Colombia--utterly ignored by the RW here: massive political murder and terror aimed at decapitating the grass roots leadership of the country.

[Bacchus39]

1. Venezuela security forces responsible for 20% of crime

that was admitted by Chavez's minister Assimi. police have been implicated in numerous murders.
I read your first paragraph and stopped reading after I got to the false claim that security forces aren't responsible for these murders.

anyway, the high murder rate I assume includes all types of murders, political or otherwise.
the extraordinary murder rate shows how inept the government is, how corrupt it is, how worthless its judicial system is, and as we have seen recently the disgraceful condition of the prison system.

[Peace Patriot]

5. What political murders in Venezuela, other than the RW landowner and RW "Black Eagles" murders?

I have seen NO evidence that murders by security forces (local police, military) in Venezuela have been anything other than ORDINARY crimes--NOT political crimes--and there is NO evidence that ANY rightwing political organizers, activists, candidates, leaders or office holders have been murdered by the Chavez government, security forces, the military or 'leftwing death squads' (which don't exist).

There is a very big difference between ordinary crime (murder, corruption) and the systematic extermination of leftist leaders in Colombia by the military and rightwing death squads with such close ties to the rightwing Uribe government that some of his closest political cohorts are in jail for just that--ties to the RW death squads! Hell, it is the scandal of the century in Colombia, with numerous commissions, exposes, investigations, prosecutions, imprisonments: RIGHTWING, POLITICAL murder of innocent poor civilians who have dared to exercise their civil rights!

There is no such extermination of political leaders on either political side in Venezuela. It is only in Colombia, and it is the RIGHTWING political elite murdering grass roots LEFTIST leaders--trade unionists, teachers, human rights workers, peasant farmer activists and others. These murders are endemic, on-going and very pointedly POLITICAL.

You don't seem to understand the difference.

There is also no evidence that murders by security forces in Venezuela are associated with the Chavez government, as opposed, say, to the local RW governor (of which there are many). There may be corruption and there may be corruption-related murders in Venezuela by the local police. If the Chavez minister says so, that's one sign that they are trying to do something about it. (One strategy I know is their creation of the new police academy.) This is far different from the government-related systematic murder of leftists in Colombia!

And you are again proving one of my points. You don't care about that. The RW murders of thousands of leftists doesn't phase you. You dwell on a social problem in Venezuela because it gives you an opportunity to demonize Chavez (--and what is it, hm? Is he "incompetent" or a "dictator"?) --but the murderous assault on democracy itself, with Uribe's vast, illegal spying operation, creating "hit lists" for murder and threats of murder, the systematic shootings of labor leaders and other advocates of the poor, terrorizing of peasant farmers and displacement of 5 million of them, Uribe stating that everybody who opposes him is a "terrorist," the murdering of youngsters and dressing their bodies up like FARC guerrillas--all in the interest of RW political power ...no comment, huh? How come you're so obsessed with Chavez and endemic RW political murder, next door in Colombia, doesn't interest you?

[Bacchus39]

7. Venezuela appears to have the highest murder rate in the world

with the security forces being responsible for a good portion. and you don't have a problem with that?

violence in the country is perhaps the greatest failing of the numerous failings of this administration. it gets worse and nothing is done.


what do you mean there is no association between security forces and the government? the security forces are the government.


I also note you fail to mention the marxist FARC political terrorists. however, they are more of a mafia type criminal organization than a political movement. political ideology is just their lame cover.

[naaman fletcher]

10. I think you are missing her point,

Please correct me if I am wrong PP, but I think her point is "Yes, but, it's worse somewhere else" (for the reasons described in her first post).

Is that right?

[Peace Patriot]

14. No, I did not say "worse." I said more socially destructive.

I don't know what the comparative stats are, as to simple comparison of numbers of murders. My point is not about the horribleness of murder. It is always horrible. Nor about the numbers game. Both countries have lots of murders. And I made this point also about Honduras.

There is a huge difference between the government and its political establishment MURDERING peaceful opponents, on the one hand, and on the other hand, SOME of the police forces being involved in corruption and related murders. it's not that one murder is worse than another; it's that the systematic, murderous suppression of dissent destroys the society.

Venezuela has a healthy democracy. It has problems of one kind or another, just like other countries do. Solving those problems is up to the collective effort of the people, led, of course, by the government, and, in the case of police corruption and high murder rate, also led by state and city governments as well (which control most of the police in Venezuela). The national government has created a national police academy to improve professionalism in the country's police forces, and if the RW in Venezuela--including a number of RW governors and mayors--really want to solve this problem, they will be cooperative in that effort. I don't know if they really do want to solve it. I haven't seen anything constructive from them, thus far, on any issue. In any case, they have the opportunity.

And that is the difference--and it is a big one. In Colombia, the left, the advocates of the poor, have been murdered and terrorized. Anybody who raises their head in a leftist cause, or even just a good government cause, risks getting it shot off. This violence is directly tied to the government and the military. Thus, Colombia CANNOT solve its problems. One of the leaders of the five million peasant farmers who were driven from their lands by the RW Uribe government/military, was just murdered about a month ago. How can this--the worst human displacement crisis in the world--be solved if the leaders of the displaced peasants are murdered? Several more trade unionists were just murdered. How can Colombia's endemic poverty be solved without a healthy labor movement--one of the chief advocates of the poor? How can any problem be solved if people are afraid to speak about it, and organize, and come up with solutions, and advocate in their own interest?

The very basis of democracy has been severely damaged in Colombia, specifically by POLITICAL murder. And the obsession of some with a problem in Venezuela--one that Chavez doesn't have that much control over, and has actually implemented at least one solution for--while they IGNORE thousands of political murders, right next door, in Colombia, which have gravely eroded the ability of the country to address and solve ANY problems, seems way lopsided to me, and just more Chavez bashing.

[joshcryer]

25. That's absolutely twisted and sick and totalitarian. "Political lives are worth more than non."

This is disgusting, vile, sickening, gross, I cannot even put into words how horrible this line of thought is. In Colombia 400 thousand people died over a 20 year period! FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE!

How many people were PROVEN to NOT be POLITICALLY ACTIVE or POLITICALLY MOTIVATED in those FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE?

It's FAR HIGHER than your 2,500 number!

[naaman fletcher]

43. Turns out you were wrong:

"Venezuela has a healthy democracy. It has problems of one kind or another, just like other countries do. Solving those problems is up to the collective effort of the people, led, of course, by the government, and, in the case of police corruption and high murder rate, also led by state and city governments as well (which control most of the police in Venezuela).

It turns out that not only has the elected mayor of Caracas had his powers stripped away by Chavez (that belies your health democracy claim) but you are also incorrect about city governments controlling most of the police:

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/venezuela/110811/Politics-Venezuela-Oppression-Chavez

[joshcryer]

24. Yes, because not *one* political person is killed by a 75/100k homicide rate.

:puke:

There are thousands of potential politically aware and acting people killed by such rates.

[joshcryer]

23. That was in Caracas I believe where Chavistas controlled the police.

[Peace Patriot]

2. The RW and its trumpet horns have also ignored the murders of leftists in Honduras.

They bleated about Honduran President Mel Zelaya with their absolute lie that he proposed a referendum on term limits and thus violated the constitution (ad thus merited being kidnaped and thrown out of the country), while completely ignoring the RW death squad murders of teachers (one of them, right in front of his students), labor union leaders, GBLT activists and others who peacefully opposed the RW coup d'etat--in addition to ignoring RW beatings, rapes, firings from jobs and unjust imprisonment, affecting thousands of democracy activists in Honduras.

They INVENT lies that portray leftists as scofflaws and "dictators" and couldn't care less about RW murders and other grave crimes committed to terrorize the political opposition.

Murder and terror have been the RW M.O. in Latin America for decades. And when GOOD government comes along--honest elections, real efforts at social justice and protecting human and civil rights, governments in fact creating prosperity in their countries and spreading the wealth around--the RW, the corporate media and our government focus on ANY failure they can dig up, ANY social ill that leftist government has not yet been able to fix, and even the impacts of catastrophic droughts and floods on infrastructure--ANYTHING they can find--to defame truly representative and democratic governments.

Their real beef with Mel Zelaya was not "term limits" (a Washington DC public relations firm-invented phantom) but his raising the minimum wage against the wishes of U.S. retailers running sweatshops in Honduras and other such policies--leftist policies in the interest of most Hondurans. Their real beef against Chavez is similar--using oil profits to benefit the poor, rather than pad the pockets of the rich. But they can't admit to their real objections, and, when it comes to RW murders, coups, illegal spying, death threats and every kind of oppression, they are simply not interested--and apparently don't object.

[joshcryer]

30. Honduras has the highest murder rate on the planet. I doubt anyone here will defend that.

[Judi Lynn]

3. You're right, U.S. fascist claim it's all Chavez' fault even though indivual regions

are in many cases controlled by fascist mayors or governors who DO control the police forces.

Just as you don't hear rational people blaming Rick Perry for turning off the water in some Texas town recently, you also don't blame the President for the decisions made by local heads of government. Common sense.

Great post, Peace Patriot, from first word to last. Thank you.

On edit:

Colombia IS consistantly under the congrol of the central right-wing military government now and has been as the other side, the left has NEVER been allowed to rise to power there. They are uniformly controlled by the right-wing throughout the country, as exemplified by any recognition of ALL the assassinations of leftist politicians who attempted to run for office and were slaughtered.

[Bacchus39]

4. the Ven police force is national under the control of your hero. n/t

s

[Peace Patriot]

6. That is not true. Many Venezuelan police forces are local. More RW disinformation!

Law enforcement in Venezuela is highly fragmented, being split across multiple police agencies of various types. The National Guard, with around 33,000 officers, is attached to the Ministry of Defence. Cuerpo de Investigaciones Científicas, Penales y Criminalísticas, with around 8,000 officers, is the primary criminal investigation agency. Dirección de los Servicios de Inteligencia y Prevención (DISIP), part of the Ministry of Interior and Justice, is the counter-espionage police agency. In addition, each of Venezuela's 23 states has its own police force, numbering around 50,000 officers altogether. The new Policía Nacional Bolivariana, created in 2009, had 2,400 officers in July 2010 (with a further 1,400 in training).<1> Finally, since 1989's decentralization legislation, many municipalities have set up their own police forces.<2>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_Venezuela

-------------------

And many of those local governors and mayors, with their own local police forces, are rightwing. Police corruption is not Chavez-created or Chavez-solveable. It is a widespread, long standing problem--often worst at the local level. That makes it a very difficult problem for the national government to solve--without becoming...ahem...dictatorial.

[Bacchus39]

8. oh so violence in the country is not a national issue that requires attention of Chavez

he has more important things to do like nationalize businesses and host his own TV show.

what exactly are the president's duties??

[Peace Patriot]

11. 23 Venezuelan states have their own police forces with approx. 50,000 officers.

Legislation PRIOR TO CHAVEZ specifically sought to DECENTRALIZE the police forces, so many cities ALSO have their OWN police forces.

You said the Venezuelan police is national and "under the control of your hero." MOST of the police force in Venezuela is decentralized, is NOT under Chavez's control and many of the state and city police forces are under the control of RIGHTWING politicians. (By the way, how did they get elected, if Chavez is a "dictator"? Or is it that he's "inept"?)

You've tried to change the subject. You were dead wrong about Venezuela's police forces. So why should anybody think that Chavez created police corruption or can solve police corruption single-handedly? Nope, he needs the RIGHTWING governors and mayors to cooperate, and, if they are anything like the RW here, they don't want to solve the problem.

And the RW in Venezuela is, indeed, very like the RW here. Like our RW--which would sooner see planes fall out of the sky than have aviation labor unions, and would (and probably just did) induce Great Depression II in order to loot and destroy Social Security for the elderly--the Venezuelan RW is more than likely contributing to the problem of police corruption. They are just as unscrupulous, just as deceitful and loud-mouthy, as our RW.

As for "national problems," the systemic extermination of the advocates of the poor, in Colombia, with the national government illegally spying on the advocates of the poor and members and close political cohorts of that government under investigation or already in jail for their ties to the death squads, all of this and more run by the President-Mob Boss, I'd say that Colombia's political murder problem has been far more centrally located than police corruption in Venezuela.

You have not addressed this point--that you were wrong about Venezuela's police forces--they are largely NOT in Chavez's control; nor have you addressed the point of my OP. Why do you obsess on Chavez, and ignore the far more socially destructive violence in Colombia that is aimed only at leftists and is clearly--if Colombia's prosecutors are to be believed--closely tied to the rightwing political party?

[Bacchus39]

12. I disagree with your premise

and by the way most of the governors are Chavistas. I say the violence in Venezuela is far more destructive than in Colombia simply because of the scale.

and again you simply ignore the FARC and pretend that only teachers, and labor unionists are murdered in Colombia, and that the government is directing these murders. on the other hand, in Venezuela even though the government admits that its own security forces commit 20% of the crimes you don't see that as an important national issue that the president needs to get involved with.


He has more important things to do like persecute opposition leaders and the press, invent conspiracy theories, and host his game show.

[Peace Patriot]

17. What is "the scale"?

"I say the violence in Venezuela is far more destructive than in Colombia simply because of the scale."

------------------

I wouldn't expect you to care about political murders, if it is the rightwing killing peaceful leftists, but would you care if it were the other way around?

Try a little imaginative turnaround and ask yourself, could you bear it if your RW buds and their loved ones and friends were being murdered for their political views? What would you do? What would it do to your sense of yourself as a citizen, to your inclination to participate in civic life, to your hope for the future?

Political murder is extremely corrosive of society--much more so than ordinary violence and corruption. There is at least hope for redress, hope for solutions, possible reform, hope that democratic institutions and the will of the people will kick in, with ordinary violence and corruption. With political murder, the very mechanism by which problems are solved is destroyed.

And I don't sympathize with any political or other murder committed by the FARC--or any murder at all. I oppose capital punishment. i am a pacifist. I think the world is sick unto death of war and weapons. We need to find another way or the human race is not going to survive.

However, with regard to the FARC, Amnesty International established that 92% of the murders of trade unionists in Colombia were committed by the Colombian military (about half) and its closely tied RW death squads (the other half). Only 2% were committed by the FARC. (And the rest were ordinary murders.) The FARC is not the problem. The RW political establishment is the problem. They need war to maintain their unfair power and their unfair wealth. They have proven this again and again.

The FARC tried to demobilize, some years back, turned in their weapons and joined the political process--as has happened before in civil wars, such as the one in Ireland--and then the RW in Colombia slaughtered thousands of their candidates and political activists. Unlike the guerrilla groups fighting RW tyranny in Brazil, Uruguay, Nicaragua, El Salvador and other places, who were given the chance to participate and who have produced elected presidents of these countries, the FARC was decimated by this mass murder by the RW, and the survivors armed themselves and returned to the jungle. Why did the peace process work in these other countries and not in Colombia? The RW in Colombia has a sickness--their preference for murder over fair political debate--and their sickness was then stoked by the sickness of the Bush Junta.

In 2008, the FARC commander Raul Reyes was intending to release all hostages and sue for peace. The RW (Uribe) in collusion with the U.S. (Bush Junta) bombed his hostage release camp, slaughtering 25 sleeping people, without benefit of trial--and, not incidentally, nearly started a war with Ecuador and Venezuela.

The Colombian military is the recipient of $7 BILLION in U.S. military aid. That money needs a war!

The RW in Colombia has not just murdered teachers, trade unionists, human rights workers, community activists, journalists, Indigenous leaders, peasant farmers and others; they have murdered thousands of them--with Uribe giving them permission to, by stating publicly that everyone who opposes him is a "terrorist" and with Uribe's vast illegal domestic spying operation feeding them names! Uribe fostered a CULTURE of murder, in which Colombian military battalions felt free to murder youngsters and dress their bodies up like FARC guerrillas. Why? To earn bonuses and promotions! It was an official policy! And the ultimate purpose was to impress U.S. senators with "body counts" to keep those billions coming in from U.S. taxpayers.

We are talking about a hideous culture of politically motivated murder specifically aimed at suppressing leftwing views.

Now tell me, how many RWers have been murdered in Venezuela, by military or police forces, to suppress their RW views?

Venezuela may have a police corruption problem. That is solvable. But they do not have a political murder problem. Colombia does. And that may not be solvable. The RW has not only literally eliminated thousands of citizen voices, forever, they have terrorized and silenced hundreds of thousands, and have deprived 5 million peasants of the ability to feed their families, using state terror and land theft. How can these wounds be healed? How can the "body politic" be healed with such crimes having been committed?

Uribe's extremes have made it nearly impossible. It will take decades, maybe the rest of the century, for Colombia to recover, and it may never recover. An ordinary murder--for personal reasons or personal gain--affects society, for sure--affects the family, the community, the nation. It creates anger, depression, a sense of disorder and injustice. But a POLITICAL murder does far more than that--it assaults the very foundations of civilization--and thousands of such murders, all aimed at one political group, can bring a civilization down. The blood spilled is CIVIC. It is not just personal. It is not just aberrant behavior--corruption or psychosis. It wrecks the foundations upon which civil order is constructed. The FARC may have contributed something to this civic destruction but they are not the main perpetrators of it. Colombia's RW elite has done this to themselves. And whatever artificial "security state" they have constructed around their rich enclaves and their "tourist zones" will not protect them from the wreckage of their society, that they alone are responsible for.

The overwhelming trend of the continent is social justice. There is none in Colombia. The rest of the continent may help Colombia to build something positive on the bloodsoaked dungheap that Uribe turned it into. I hope they do. Colombia's main hope is that they are now surrounded by leftist democracies, with good leaders committed to cooperation, peace, social justice and LatAm prosperity and independence.

------------------

[Bacchus39]

19. my RW buds??? your post is insulting as well as ignorant

if "political" violence is so detrimental and its so epidemic, then the country would have been obliterated long ago. Colombia persists and thrives despite the violence, political or otherwise. and violence has gone down over the past decade which is why Uribe and Santos are so popular. decreased violence = more stability.

ok, lets turn to Ven. epidemic violence spiraling out of control, an authoritarian government that despises the press, private enterprise, and the opposition. no independent judiciarly, an inept legal system and justice system. inflation, no economic diversity, no sufficient agricultural sector, insufficient housing industry, crime, crime, murder, murder, murder. not to mention security and now the nation's identification system is run from Cuba.

if it were not for oil there would be nothing.


but that is your definition of liberal and progressive, so you can have it.

[Peace Patriot]

20. Well, you ARE rightwing, Bacchus39. And you aren't addressing the point of my OP.

Maybe you don't realize it, but your posts and comments speak volumes about your political persuasion. So I'm asking you, what if thousands of peaceful RIGHTWING citizens were being MURDERED, by a leftwing-controlled government and its military? What would you think of this, and what would this do to your ability and the ability of others with your views to speak out, to influence policy, to elect people to public office?

The RW in Colombia has not just been killing FARC guerrillas. They've been killing thousands of OTHERS--innocent citizens, merely trying to exercise their civil rights, and all of them on the left end of the spectrum--advocates of the poor, labor leaders, peasant leaders, Indigenous leaders, human rights workers, teachers and others.

This is not just murder--crime, disorder. This is systematic POLITICAL murder, which kills democracy itself.

This is NOT happening in Venezuela. They may be gun nuts, they may have a problem with street crime and ordinary murder. But it is possible, in Venezuela--as the Chavez government commission on police reform has demonstrated--to pull people together to SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

You cannot pull people together to solve the problem of FIVE MILLION displaced peasant farmers, if the leaders of this huge displaced population are being murdered by RW death squads in the interest of the politicians and landowners who stole the lands with official protection during the Uribe reign of terror. You cannot pull people together to solve the problem of endemic poverty--a huge impoverished underclass--if labor leaders are being murdered, half them by the military itself and the other half by RW death squads. And, furthermore, you can't have honest elections in these circumstances, and you can't trust any polls. People are being murdered for their POLITICAL views. People are being bullied, intimidated and silenced. You don't really have a democracy in these circumstances. So, who knows what most Colombians really want? It is not possible to say.

I'm not going to go into your list of negatives on Venezuela, because you have proven yourself impervious to plain facts about the positives. I am just asking you to look at the difference between ordinary murder and political murder. Ordinary murder is a problem. Political murder kills society itself--democracy, civic participation and the ability to collectively solve whatever problems arise. That, to me, is the biggest difference between Colombia and Venezuela. And, unlike you, on Venezuela, I see positive developments in Colombia. One of them is that the prosecutors and judges are still trying to hold Uribe accountable for his crimes, and are still trying to implement justice on the numerous political murders that have been committed. But they are struggling, precisely for the reason that Uribe's "Murder, Inc." network is still at work and they have furthermore been obstructed by the U.S. government in its efforts to protect Uribe. I see Santos as a positive in several respects--his peace overtures to Venezuela, his interest in "south-south" trade, his efforts (not very extensive, thus far) to restore peasant lands. But I do NOT think that his overall rightwing political posture is representative of the people of Colombia, the majority of whom are very poor. And THAT distortion is due to rampant political murder and vast repression over the last decade.

I think that Chavez, on the other hand, is very representative of the people of Venezuela, as evidenced by numerous elections in a fair and transparent election system and opinion polls in similar conditions. Nobody is being murdered in Venezuela for their political views. People are free to speak out, organize and choose and support candidates. They are free to vote, without intimidation, and they can have confidence in the results. The RW even has a significant advantage in the media, and made electoral gains in the last legislative elections. I think the media should be yet more balanced (as it once was here, with the "Fairness Doctrine") but, in any case, the political system is working as it should. If Venezuelans come to perceive Chavez and his government the way you do, they will vote the Chavistas out, and they have that ability. They even have a recall provision in the constitution. They can recall the president! In fact, the RW tried this in 2004 and the voters chose NOT to recall Chavez (in big numbers) then voted for him again, in the regular elections in 2006. They voted to let him run again. And, if he recovers from his cancer, they will probably vote him a third term. But they have the ability to make a different choice--and no one is murdering them and terrorizing them, and displacing five million of them, to deny them that right.

Venezuela's system is NORMAL. It is a working democracy. But things are NOT normal in Colombia. And if the politics were reversed--and a leftist government was killing rightwing activists, you would be outraged. You have expressed outrage at FARC guerrilla killings, and I share that outrage. I do NOT support FARC killings. But I will not emphasize my opposition for this reason: FARC killings have been very minimal, compared to the killing of innocent people by the Colombian military and RW paramilitaries in league with the government. The latter has created an OFFICIAL culture of murder, mayhem and repression--directed exclusively at the poor and their advocates. The numbers are overwhelming. 92% of the murders of trade unionists by the Colombian military and its RW paramilitaries. 2% by the FARC. Which is the greater problem, by orders of magnitude? The lawlessness of the government is a far, far greater problem than the lawlessness by the FARC. It has destroyed democracy, civic participation, reasonable discussion, normal problem-solving and justice itself. The poor and their advocates are murdered with near total impunity in Colombia!

I know you disagree with this, but I want to say it, because I think it's so important: A 70 year civil war is not solved by MORE killing. This has been a wrong policy of the Colombian government, horribly exacerbated by the infusion of $7 BILLION in U.S. military aid on one side of this conflict. Every other country in LatAm, once wracked by civil warfare, with armed leftist groups fighting RW dictators, has been able to achieve peace--has been able to DISARM the conflict and create a democratic system in which all views can be peacefully expressed and considered. But not Colombia. Indeed, the RW in Colombia deliberately sabotaged one effort at demobilization, by slaughtering thousands of FARC political candidates, and sabotaged the AUC (RW) demobilization by creating the "Black Eagles" and continuing political killings along with the Colombian military's political killings. If Ireland could settle a 500 year civil war with disarmament and peace, why can't Colombia? The only way to stop this kind of civil war--endemic internal warfare--is to STOP IT. You will NEVER eliminate the other side, because they keep being born--the privileged and unprivileged, or the Hutu's and the Tutsi's. There is no way to stop blood feuds with MORE killing. And if you try to, you destroy the very society you think you are defending.

What needs to happen in Colombia is incorporation of the poor majority into the political system, and complete disarmament of this conflict. I think this is possible, because the rest of South America has achieved it. And I hope and pray that it occurs in Colombia.

[joshcryer]

29. 400k people in 20 years, left, right, up, down, everyone is killed by that kinda rate.

Far left, far right, but the reality is that mostly in the middle types are going to be most affected by such a murder rate.

All we can say for sure is that of the confirmed political assassinations the AUC/paramilitaries/Eagles did them more.

So the fuck what, both of their drug cartels killed between them FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE.

[Bacchus39]

31. no, you are right wing and don't even know it

political persecution, restrictions on free press, no accountablity, impunity, corruption. all of those things in the Chavez administration and you support him in blissful ignorance. Chavez isn't liberal or progressive, he just says he is a leftist and thats good enough for you.

anyway, I didn't bother reading beyond the first paragraph, I assume just more of your typical unknowledgeable opinion, conjecture, and gibberish.

[naaman fletcher]

32. You forgot to add,

That she supports the people taking on more and more consumer debt to buy cheap junk from China as well as decreasing food security and overpopulating prisons. Just like a good right winger.

[Bacchus39]

33. also, believes Colombian government should be overthrown and country ruled

by an international group, and have foreign troops occupying the country. Sounds similar to a recent RW former president to me.

[naaman fletcher]

36. Oh and we forgot,

Big arms expenditures at home, while supporting murderous thugs abroad if they are political allies.

Except for hating the US, I can't find a single issue where she is not Right wing.

[Peace Patriot]

34. No, it's not gibberish. It's thoughtful examination of political murder vs ordinary/street crime

murder. That is what I asked you to respond to, in the OP and the comment. I'm saying that POLITICAL murder, and in Colombia's case, all directed at leftist political activists and advocates of the poor (human rights workers, teachers, union leaders), renders a society of incapable of solving problems. It strikes at the heart of the democratic process. Ordinary murder and street crime murder is a social problem that a democracy can address and solve--as the Chavez government has tried to do with its police reform commission and creation of a national police academy.

Whatever you think of Chavez's policies, there is NO systematic, government-approved program of assassinating rightwing leaders. There is not even one instance of the rightwing accusing Chavez, his government or the military of murdering someone for their political beliefs. People are perfectly free to speak out and organize politically in Venezuela. This is NOT true in Colombia. Some 70 of Uribe's closest political cohorts are under investigation or already in jail for ties to the rightwing death squads, illegal spying and other crimes. The Uribe government was systematically targeting leftists for death, with a vast, illegal domestic spying program, and was systematically committing political murder, using the Colombian military and rightwing paramilitary death squads (the AUC, and, after the fake demobilization of the AUC, the "Black Eagles").

You are avoiding my question of you. And it is this: If rightwingers were being murdered for their political beliefs, would you not be outraged, and would such a thing not profoundly affect your rights as a citizen--with the most likely result being to make you and others too afraid to speak out and organize politically? And would this not fatally damage the ability of a society to solve its problems?

Why is it so difficult for you to condemn this outrage in Colombia--of thousands of leftists being murdered? Why are you so obsessed with a social problem--a high murder rate--in Venezuela--and have nothing to say about endemic POLITICAL murder in Colombia, with official participation by the military and the rightwing government?

Say I have misinterpreted every Chavez policy and action that I have studied. Say you're right, that the Chavez government has been in power too long and is abusing its authority. I don't believe this, but say it's true. It is still nevertheless true that, a) the Chavez government does NOT kill people for their political views--not even the far right has accused him of this, and b) Venezuela's election system is honest and transparent (internationally certified by numerous election monitoring groups). Solving problems is STILL POSSIBLE in Venezuela, including the rightwing solution of throwing the Chavez government out. Rightwing activists and leaders are perfectly free to speak out--and even have the advantage in the media--and to organize and run candidates for office--and MADE GAINS in the last legislative elections.

This is NOT possible in Colombia for LEFTISTS. If they speak out, they are putting themselves in the gun sights of the military and of rightwing death squads with close ties to the military and the government. So, people on one end of the political spectrum do not even have the right to live, let alone advocate for causes or candidates.

You never mention this and you never condemn it. And this makes it seem as though you don't care, as long as it's leftists who are being murdered. But you often mention and post about the crime rate and other problems in Venezuela.

I find it remarkable that you don't seem to understand the difference between systematic murder of leftists in one country and a general crime problem in the other.

A general crime problem is solvable. Political murder makes solving any problem almost impossible.

However power-mongering Chavez may be, in your view, he is quite open about what he believes and what he does, and NO ONE, not even the far rightwing, has accused him of running a vast, illegal, domestic spying operation targeting rightwingers for death, as the Uribe government was doing, against leftists, over the last decade, with Bush Junta support, in Colombia.

Venezuela has a viable, working democracy. Colombia does not, and the reason that Colombia does not is thousands of murders of leftists, sending the "message" to millions of people that, if they speak freely, they and their loved ones will be killed. If it were the reverse, politically--if a leftwing government was murdering thousands of rightwingers--wouldn't you condemn it and wouldn't you say that the political system was broken?

i would appreciate an answer--and not dismissal of my question as "gibberish."

[Bacchus39]

37. I already said I disagreed with your premise, uncontrolled violence

is what breaks down a society. look at Africa, just look at London. there aren't investigations in Venezuela because the judicial system is corrupt and completely subservient to Hugo. its the judges who get prosecuted.

[Judi Lynn]

38. Attempts to fling words like "gibberish" at the people who are right

are feeble atennae waves in the face of the very large truth!

The right-wing paramilitaries, sometimes at the nudging from right-wing government/miltiary officials, as we've seen, have murdered or driven away any honest, conscientious members of the press long ago in Colombia.

Can you imagine what they would have done to any "El Universal"-like newspapers in Colombia? There would have been a vast smoking hole in the ground long, LONG ago where their buildings stood. NO ONE would have been allowed to live who set out on a pattern of daily attack "journalism" against Uribe.

[gbscar]

39. I don't agree, because there are honest members of the press even in today's Colombia

Yes, there is a lot of fear, often leading to exile or self-censorship, but completely denying the existence of brave individuals who have continued to try and do what they can to bring good journalism to Colombia, in spite of all the risks coming from all sides (military and paramilitary, yes, but also guerrillas or drug traffickers and others), is something that cannot be considered fair nor accurate.

Due to time constraints, I'll only mention a couple of examples here and will necessarily leave many others out.

a) Semana's coverage of the illegal wiretapping scandal has been extensive.

http://www.semana.com/seguridad/escandalo-denuncia-semana-sobre-nuevas-chuzadas-desde-das/121052-3.aspx


b) Noticias Uno has revealed many scandals, including covering the whole "yidispolítica" affair:

http://www.noticiasuno.com/noticias/entrevista-yidis-medina-daniel-coronell-reeleccion-video.html

This doesn't deny that most of the mainstream media in Colombia is, in fact, affected by what you've just mentioned, but I feel that a complete picture must be presented if we are going to talk about the issue.

In addition, the Communist Party's newspaper Voz continues to be published and it obviously doesn't maintain a pro-government position, to say the least. It never has probably never will. Despite probably being the single most attacked or censored media outlet in Colombian history (at one point it was, in fact, bombed), it continues to endure and you don't need to hide in a dark alley in order to find copies either.

[Judi Lynn]

40. Hollman Morris' brother is still there, may he survive in good health.

I have been amazed at their courage. Unbelievably strong people who haven't "self-censored" to spare their own lives.

[joshcryer]

41. There is *no such thing* as a "thoughtful examination" comparing the two at a 75/100k murder rate.

Your "thoughtful examination" diminishes the wholesale slaughter of FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE to "uphold and respect" the death of 2,500 people in the same period of time.

FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND vs TWENTY FIVE HUNDRED.

Do you not know what numbers mean? Hint: 400,000 > 2,500. The '>' symbol means "greater than."

Venezuela may well resort to political murder in the future, we have yet to see what happens there. Certainly top officials there talk poorly of democracy and suggest that militancy is a good solution. But since they have control over the judicial branches they control elections administratively, like Katherine Harris did.

Capriles was going to be expunged from running but the people from Miranda complaining and caused an uproar so Chavez's people had to back down. Meanwhile Chavez is dropping the populist sentiment and talking up the middle class. I think we actually see where Chavistas' actually stand in Venezuela, particularly going by the public opinion polls done there.

The question will be whether or not the electronic voting machines will be used to manipulate the vote. It's interesting times because if it goes as I'm suspecting, heads will explode. You can only have the same people for so long with very little results before you get tired of it.

[joshcryer]

42. I would have to agree with this assessment, those who are ignorant of totalitarian "left" garbage...

...are bound to repeat the same mistakes.

[ChangoLoa]

35. When I stressed the need to protect Venezuelan industry from foreign free market competition

and pointed out the absurdity of having foreign companies building the little public infrastructure that's being built... that same poster told me to go and complain somewhere else because this was a "leftist forum" (!) :)

Once, I even heard her talk about my "right wing compadres", because I'm Latin American. Her latest meme is that the govt is not to blame for the violence causing 15,000 murders per year in Venezuela because our people are naturally "gun nuts".


For a leftist or a progressive, that poster is "mas falsa que un billete de treinta" as we say.

[joshcryer]

28. Are you fucking serious? 2,500 classified political murders, 400k unclassified murders.

Are you fucking going to really say that in those 400k unclassified murders where there are complete unknowns that they are not going to cover political affiliation or activity? Because this is just mind boggling. The confirmed political murders are a blip in the total murders, and if we can assume an average throughout an entire population (and we should be able to at the scale of this), it's clear that in those 400k people we have murdered many many politically capable, aware, active individuals who simply got caught up in a class system that perpetuates their suffering.

God the totalitarian left just boggles my mind sometime, they love it when tyrants kill their own and they justify it by any means necessary. Neo-Stalinism lives.

[naaman fletcher]

13. assuming you are correct,

That most Venezuelan police are not under federal control, and that the RW is doing all of this. Would you agree then that it is time that Chavez fight to put them under federal control and investigate if the RW is behind this?

[Peace Patriot]

16. "the RW is doing all this"? They are in Colombia--basically a country run by a RW Mob.

Venezuela's RW is kindred with them in many ways, so it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they were thickly involved in corrupt gangs that control police and drug trafficking, and commit murder. But I didn't say they did. That's just my sense of them--grubby, greedy. Their notion of running things is to suspend the constitution, the courts, the legislature and all civil rights, and stuff their pockets, and to hell with the rest of Venezuela, the poor majority. And I really haven't heard anything since then--their failed coup--that indicates that they have any interest in good government or any idea of what government is for, other than serving the rich. I do hope this changes. But I haven't seen any evidence of it.

I also do think they resemble our RW--or our RW has come to resemble them. Murdoch-level "talking point" thinkers (--in Venezuela, with USAID assistance). Not very bright. Very corrupt.

As for putting all the police under federal control and/or investigating the RW, I don't know what the solution is to the high murder rate and corrupt police, and it's not up to me. I think that if Venezuelans decide to solve this problem, they can. That is the important thing. They have a healthy, working democracy. They also have well-distributed wealth--which doesn't solve such problems in itself, but helps. It puts people on a more equal footing with each other, making it more possible for good solutions to arise. I don't favor anything dictatorial (capital punishment, gun ban that isn't put to a general vote, the 'good police' becoming nazis to get the 'bad guys,' etc.) Those are my personal views. I would also legalize all recreational drugs. That would get rid of most of the corruption, right there. Again, personal view. Venezuelans have to --and can--work this out themselves.

I don't feel this way about Colombia. I think they have been rendered almost incapable of solving their problems. Uribe did what may be fatal damage to their society. One very big mistake that was made, also by the RW, but pre-dating Uribe, was the slaughter of the FARC political candidates when they demobilized. This put Colombia into a permanent state of civil war. Recently--and this was Uribe--they deliberately blew another chance for a peaceful settlement, with the U.S./Colombia bombing raid on Raul Reyes, who was the FARC leader who was most inclined to demobilize again. Colombia would have had MANY allies in achieving a peaceful solution to their 70-year civil war--allies who weren't there before. Almost everybody was willing to help--including Brazil, Venezuela, Argentina and Ecuador--and several European governments (France, Spain, Switzerland). This was a Bush Junta decision--to destroy that peace movement--and of course it served Uribe in his bloody assault on peaceful opposition.

Then there 's the cocaine industry in Colombia--which is mostly what their Mob government (Uribe) was about, in my opinion. It is huge. It is embedded in the political establishment. It is violent. It fosters all sorts of attendant corruption (weapons trafficking, land theft). It infests the military and the police. (Talk about corruption!) And it keeps being fed--not stopped--fed by the U.S. "war on drugs." For one thing, the "war on drugs" necessitates more weaponry, more organization, more brutality and bigger gangs. Ultimately, I think the government, with their "war on drugs" billions, was merely consolidating this huge revenue stream into fewer hands--favoring big drug lords, driving the poor peasants out. It is like the Prohibition gangs here, only on steroids. It very nearly IS the government. How can anyone create a good government in Colombia, at this point? It would take a miracle.

There are some good signs. The prosecutors and judges seem unbowed. Santos seems more peaceable and is doing at least one other very important thing--genuinely pursuing south-south trade. He's made some token efforts at restoring peasant lands but nothing much has changed, and the RW death squads are still killing people.

[joshcryer]

27. The AUC and FARC have been severely hindered in their ability to murder people wholesale.

Colombia's crime rate only proves that is true.

Meanwhile Venezuela is claiming that Colombia right wingers are creating the crime wave there.

Perhaps Venezuela should take a playbook from Colombia, then. Because Colombia did crack down on the AUC as well as FARC, both far right and left organizations, neither of which have any redeemable qualities whatsoever, but are inevitable when you create a militant ideology.

[joshcryer]

22. Chavez told FARC to disarm, he's right. They should.

[naaman fletcher]

9. While you are correct there is a difference,

It still shows the incompetence of the Chavez government and it's misplaced priorities.

[Peace Patriot]

18. No, high murder rate, police corruption do not show Chavez incompetence or misplace priorities.

You need to read my post about the current organization of Venezuela's police forces--most of them not in Chavez's control, rather in the control of governors and mayors--and Judi's post (below) about the Chavez government's highly respected commission on the police forces and how to reform them.

This shows great competence and exactly right priorities by the Chavez government. The national government needed civil society--the governors, the majors and other local leaders and entities--to reform the police. The national government couldn't do it because they do not control the local police forces--and they needed consensus and the advice of knowledgeable people and experts. They did not jump headlong into what may have been overly hasty and "authoritarian" solutions from the government in power--as they might have done responding to the "panic button" of RW carping. They sought advice and thoughtful consideration from a wide spectrum of involved people.

How different is this from, say, what just happened in Colombia, with FOUR members of the legislative committee investigating Uribe resigning, two of them admittedly because of death threats (and other two likely because of death threats). Uribe made Colombia into such a basketcase of corruption and murder that not even legislators are safe, not even legislators can do their jobs and fear reigns.

The Chavez government is not perfect. Venezuela is not perfect. But the Chavez government and Venezuela's democracy are operating NORMALLY. Therefore, problems are solvable. The Chavez government has not murdered anyone, does not approve of murder, does not have murder as a method of political control, did not corrupt local police forces, has long been aware of the crime problem and has done something about it--the best thing possible, a commission with a consensus on thoughtful, positive action.

Colombia, on the other hand, is struggling--has not been able to stop death squad killings, suffers endemic poverty, has 5 MILLION displaced peasant farmers, has even more displaced who are too fearful of government to even register as displaced, has low voter turnouts and bribery, intimidation and election fraud as endemic problems, has one whole end of the political spectrum in real fear of death if people speak up and try to participate, and many other problems that go to the heart of a country's ability to address and solve serious problems. And this is all the result of RW extremism inflicted by Uribe and cohorts and fostered by the Bush Junta. Colombia's civil war has been going on for 70 years! This is a deep failure in Colombia and it is also a failure of the region and obviously of U.S. policy. There is some hope now that the region can help--because of the leftist democracy movement that has elected leaders committed to peaceful solutions, including leaders who have "been there," as to guerrilla movements against RW tyranny. They were spurned by Uribe, whose "solutions" are killing and looting--but Santos seems wiser and I hope to God that he takes the opportunity to get help in ending the civil war and including Colombia in the general prosperity and creation of an independent, progressive society in Latin America.

[joshcryer]

26. There's a difference if it's small scale, say, 5/100k murder rate, like the USA.

But when you're into the 50/100k murder rate as Latin American countries love to hover around, it's almost certain that you've got thousands if not tens of thousands of politically capable, politically aware people who just didn't get a chance to get that far because they were killed. We're talking genocide level shit here (from the point of view of a cushy westerner who doesn't have to worry about getting raped or killed when he goes outside, etc). I mean it's horrific to place political lives above non-political lives.

[Judi Lynn]

15. Venezuela Cracks On With Police Reform

Friday, 01 April 2011 10:17
Venezuela Cracks On With Police Reform
Written by Hannah Stone

Venezuela has taken another step in the overhaul of its dysfunctional and often corrupt police force, announcing that the notorious Caracas Metropolitan Police (PM) will be dissolved over the next 90 days. The process of police reform has been ongoing in this socialist country since 2006, when the government tasked a commission with making recommendations on how to improve the institution, renowned for its brutality and incompetence. The commission called for a more centralized national police force, among other things. This materialized in the form of the National Bolivarian Police (Policia Nacional Bolivariana - PNB), set up in late 2009 to replace the various local and state level forces, a process which is still underway.

The PNB is gradually being expanded, and in two years will be the only police force in Venezuela. The removal of the Caracas force is a major step in this process, as it had one of the worst records of violence in the country. The government said Wednesday that around half of its members would be retired, while the other half would be incorporated into the new national force.

The Venezuelan police are in serious need of an overhaul. Even the government admitted in 2009 that the police were responsible for up to 20% of all crimes, especially violent ones such as murder and kidnapping. One NGO found that killings of civilians by the police more than doubled between 2006 and 2009, to more than 2,600 cases a year, incidents which are not counted in the already soaring official murder rates. Various organizations have tracked the frequent reports of torture and arbitrary detentions.

Rising crime has become the foremost public complaint in Venezuela, and another reason it is so important to clean up the police is that the country is becoming an ever-more important transit nation for drug trafficking. Security advances in Colombia have pushed criminal organizations over the border into its now more chaotic neighbor. Underfunded and corrupt police forces are the lifeblood of these criminal groups, which rely on the security forces being easily bribed to ignore, or better still disposed to assist, their operations. Venezuela's efforts to centralize and improve the police have been met with international praise. Human Rights Watch, for example, said that the reform commission stood out as a rare example of the government constructively engaging with civil society.

More:
http://www.insightcrime.org/insight-latest-news/item/732-venezuela-cracks-on-with-police-reform

[joshcryer]

21. Totalitarian propagandists diminish "ordinary street crime murders." 400 *thousand* killed.

This is disgusting, 400 thousand people *murdered* in Colombia over two decades (the same period of time for the 92% number) and all we're supposed to care about are the 2,500 "political murders." :puke:

Fucking totalitarians don't give a shit about the rest.

The effects of militant authoritarian totalitarianism are bloody, as history shows time and time and time again. War is peace.

I'm glad FARC is finally being rid of, because the FARC-AUC wars were destroying Colombia for far too long, and Santos is a fucking hero for continuing the FARC crackdown and not backing off of those totalitarian thugs.