He Failed. Right. Do They Realize that?

[Powdered Toast Man]

The Undie-Bomber... He Failed. The plane landed in Detroit safely.

They haven't rewritten history on that yet... right?

Do the Democrats understand the attempt failed. Why don't they say so. I know the republicans don't care; many probably wished it hadn't.

Nobody Died.
No plane crashed.

The Terrorist Failed.

Just in case anybody here needed a reminder.

[saltpoint]

1. From what I've read, it would seem as if the underwear bomber's

general strategy was questionable from the start.

Whether he acted of his own volition or was induced to tragic action by influential others is less the point, IMO, than the basic strategic question, which appears to be, "Will you willingly set your nuts ablaze in an effort to blow up a commercial jetliner?"

[POAS]

21. End result---three fewer nuts running around loose! n/t

[Proud Liberal Dem]

30. As Lewis Black may say:

I would think that he would have more of a sense of self-preservation than THAT. Geez!!! You'd think that maybe some people might think about joining a different club or something! :eyes: Idiot.

[saltpoint]

34. No kidding. Why can't SOME people be satisfied with the birthday club

at International House of Pancakes?! I mean, sheesh.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

37. Ha!!!

:rofl:

Man, I love his riffs too! :hi:

[HughMoran]

2. plane

The fact that he got on a plane with what could have been a successful attack is worth discussion.

[Powdered Toast Man]

4. Yes... but...

He still failed and they are all acting as if the plane blew up.

It didn't.

[HughMoran]

6. Well, of course the right-wing is going to play it for all it's worth

But from a strictly non-political viewpoint, it's a good wake-up call - I'm almost glad it happened as unsuccessful attacks keep us on our toes without the loss of life!

[Powdered Toast Man]

12. Yes, true. n/t

[liquid diamond]

48. Great point.

This experience was an inexpensive lesson.

[MadMaddie]

3. Powdered Toast Man you are absolutely right!

As long as the media is controlled by the right wing they will run this story into the ground. The Repugs and the right want a catastrophe, they ache for it.

The people that are blaming President Obama are probably lurking freepers trying to sow discord on DU.

Welcome to DU!

[Powdered Toast Man]

5. The unrec would prove your point.

Never thought I'd get un-rec'd for pointed out that a terrorist plot FAILED. But oh well...

[MadMaddie]

7. I just rec'd

screw em.....it was a failed attempt and I can bet that this administration is doing more things behind the scenes to eliminate this kind of thing. They may not always succeed but at least we know they are paying attention.

[Powdered Toast Man]

14. Exactly. OH, and thanks for the rec. n/t

[treestar]

41. If it had been a Republican in the WH

The M$M would have repeated how the attack failed and given the WH credit for preventing an attack.

[old mark]

8. The GOP would have been happier if he had succeeded in killing

those 300 people. They would have been crowing about what a terrible job Obama did, etc.

The problem is that the bomb failed to go off by luck. You do not want to rely on luck when you board an aircraft, do you?

The security "system" set up the Bush era bureaucrats was not talking to each other, and not relaying information that it had that would have really stopped this clown before he got ont the plane in the first place. Obama is actually fixing another leftover republican mess and he should get credit for it, not blame.


mark

[Turbineguy]

9. The repubs are just trying

to snatch victory...etc.

As we well can guess, all those Dutch people in the security service voted for Obama.

[salguine]

10. I don't know if I would call it a failure simply because it didn't happen to work. He still

got EXPLOSIVES ONTO AN AIRPLANE. It's probably only by some one-in-a-million miracle that it DIDN'T work. Sorry if I don't feel like slapping us all on the back.

[Powdered Toast Man]

11. I bet those on the plane feel pretty damned good.

Slap on the back? No.

Realization of what ACTUALLY happened; or at least the end result... Nothing wrong with pointing it out.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted sub-thread

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[Alcibiades]

15. Just like the shoe bomber

It would have been a hail Mary if it had worked, not the other way around. This is different from 9-11: with 9-11, you had the cream of the crop, bright, hardworking, mainly longtime terrorists. With the shoe bomber and the underwear bomber, they had to rely on a lone kook, recruited mainly for their psychological vulnerabilities and the fact that they were not Arab.

They are 0-2 for this type of attack, so it's clearly not a one-in-a-million miracle that it didn't work. The fact is, anytime you have a lone nutjob on a plane full of people who want to live, they will have a tough time of it. We have all these people saying "he should never have been able to board" and "the government should have done something" but, at the end of the day, they are still 0-2. We have spent billions on preventing this sort of thing, and yet the last line of defense has proved the toughest. If the best defense against this are the passengers and crew who want to live, why waste billions and give up our civil liberties to boot? We have to accept some risk, and we would save many more lives if alcoholics had ignition lock-outs on their cars than if we went ahead with the more draconian airport measures being proposed.

I'm more concerned with a Madrid or London-style attack at this point than with the various threats to civil aviation, which seem to be covered pretty well by passengers and crew, until they find a way to put bombs in the cargo.

[frazzled]

33. I partly disagree about 9/11

Yes, it was a far more sophisticated operation, because the guys had taken some lessons and worked on flight simulators, and there was a lot of planning, etc. -- but it was still pretty rinky dink. They were able to hijack planes due to our wholly nonexistent security measures (including the pilots' cabins not being locked and no metal detectors for the box cutters), but I believe the devastation turned out to be far greater than even they imagined. That the Twin Towers actually collapsed in the aftermath was not, I believe, wholly anticipated. It was a bit of "luck" (excuse the expression) on their part. Far fewer people would have lost their lives that day, even though it still would have been a super major incident.

Since that time security measures have become much better, but those with intentions of committing terrorist acts will always figure out the next step in getting around the new security systems (thus shoe bombs and panty bombs). If you remember back to the days of frequent airplane hijackings, that is precisely what happened: each time a new security principle was put in place, hijackers figured out a new way to get around them. That's what criminals do. But the attempts got lamer and lamer until the hijacking thing pretty much petered out. Let's hope that happens again. But we will never be able to stop every potential plot.

I, too, am more concerned about an attack on a public transportation system here. There is zero security altogether. A perfect opening.

In the end, I guess my view is that it doesn't take a lot of sophistication to cause a lot of damage. People who are willing to blow up their own crotches-- well, you really have no leverage over them.

[hulka38]

43. The next guy or group who wants to try this will learn from it too.

I don't think it's one in a million that it didn't work nor do I think it had much to do with the one lone man versus other passengers wanting to live. It's a matter of 1) building something that will explode, 2) getting it on board and then 3) igniting it. Getting it on board was no problem. If a guy has no regard for his own life or well being, he's competent and determined to succeed, it should take a few seconds to ignite the bomb. The plane, passengers and crew then become casualties. So to me, once you've chosen your guy to carry it out it comes down to how well do you make your bomb. In other words, we are relying on the incompetence of these people more than our own ability to thwart these attacks and that is unacceptable.

Also, the guy could have acted at any time. The reason why he chose to act on the descent was so that at a lower altitude there would be less time for recovery if the plane was still able to fly more importantly that the plane would do maximum damage in an urban area and that ditching the plane without further loss of life on the ground would be unlikely. I don't hear that discussed much on tv or elsewhere.

[Alcibiades]

57. But here's what we have learned

Billions spent on security, the erosion of civil liberties, and many other drastic measures have done nothing compared to the realization of the public that any hijacker probably wants to kill them. The first measure cost money, the second freedom but the third has been free and also the most effective.

What gets me is that we have these asshats who go around saying "the government cannot do anything right" and "let's privatize everything," who then demand that the government make civil aviation 100% safe from any terrorist threat. Yet here we have civil society acting effectively as a policeman of last resort, and there's no credit given, only outrage that the government has not kept us safe.

43,313 people died in the US as a result of auto accidents in the US in 2008, but nobody who didn't lose a loved one seems to give a shit. One guy lights his pants on fire, hurting no one but himself in the end, and they are ready to bodyscan everybody. Are we all idiots?

[northernlights]

13. if I were al Qaeda, I'd be *embarrassed* to own up to this pathetic attempt

I mean, seriously. From dropping the twin towers to this? The notorious underwear bomber? I thought the shoe bomber was a joke, but all this guy succeeding in doing was singe his own nuts.

Talk about a comedown...instead of starting war in Yemen, we *should* be giving this all the attention it truly deserves. Which is, essentially, none except a little ridicule and fodder for late night comedy.

See where security failed. Fix it. Move on. Nothing to see here except a couple hairless, burned nuts.

[hulka38]

44. Why? It doesn't cost them anything. It scares the beegeebers out of us and has some of our Senators

talking openly about opening yet another front in Yemen which will put us another trillion in the hole and push more islamic youth toward al qaeda's radical ideology. It's no joke if you were on that plane.

[northernlights]

52. well it shouldn't scare the bejeezus out of us

and that is my point. Every day you get out of bed and are more likely to die driving to work or slipping and falling in the bathtub than in a terrorist attack.

It was a miniscule, pathetic failed attempt. "The Underwear Bomber." We are not the same people we were on 9/11.

No, for the people on that flight, in the moment of the attack, it was no joke. But they WON. They took down "The Underwear Bomber." They walked away and he was taken out in cuffs or on a stretcher or something. That's cause for CELEBRATION, not cowering in fear and bombing yet another country.

It's time to quit cowering under the covers, grow up and face that fact that we are not immortal, that any day we can die, and that we need to face each day as though it were out last. That is bin Laden's gift to us, if we choose to see it and use it.

[CaliCompadre]

16. When a man fails to kill 300 people due to an UNFORCED error...

I fail to feel safer. His failure had nothing to do with our efforts to protect the plane.

[Powdered Toast Man]

18. I disagree

Why? Because when it comes down to it the American People stopped it. The Government can do all it wants and can to protect us, but in the end, it's about "We The People," and "The People" stopped this one; regardless of his wardrobe malfunction... The fact is that it was still a failed attempt.

That fact alone makes me feel much safer.

[CaliCompadre]

19. They were brave to stop it. But the bomb wasn't supposed to set the undies on fire

that's why it was an unforced error; because it was supposed to simply explode.

[Cha]

23. "Incendiary Device"..

<snip>

"One U.S. intelligence officials said the explosive device was a mix of powder and liquid. It failed when the passenger tried to detonate it."

<snip>
"He appears to have had some kind of incendiary device he tried to ignite,” said one of the U.S. officials."

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/national/general/view/20091225ap_sources_al-qaida_link_in_failed_plane_attack/

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

40. How did "the American People" stop it? It wasn't a USAnian that tackled him after he didn't explode

First off, he wasn't stopped from exploding by ANY nationality of person but by his own error.

Secondly, no, it wasn't "the American "People" who tackled him but a Dutch man who grabbed the burning stuff and put it out.

[impik]

17. Why did he wait until landing?

He doesn't strike me a a very smart or "brave" terrorist.

[Powdered Toast Man]

32. There are over 150,000 Arabic Americans in Dearborn.

What better way to insight racism than pull something like that off in the Detroit area?

[lunatica]

20. Well it was a Panty Dud

Some of us know it could have been serious except it probably couldn't have been, but it ended well. It's a wake-up call at the very least.

I fully expect there will be successful attempts just like there continue to be in other countries. Terrorists can be as small as a mosquito stealthily buzzing around your ear in the dead of night. No matter how much you swat at it, it or one just like it keeps buzzing around your ear.

[Powdered Toast Man]

27. Yes definitely. n/t

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

22. I seldom unrec, but this calls for it

When you can distinguish virtue and dumb luck you will be better able to discuss these things.

[Powdered Toast Man]

24. Then you miss the point of the OP.

What I am saying is regardless of who stopped it from happening, the attempt FAILED, and republicans are carrying on as if the plane caught fire and crashed.

It did not.

That is important.

Get it now?

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Powdered Toast Man]

26. Wow... Nice Guy There Kurt

And being rude doesn't change my mind.

The Plane Didn't Crash.

The Media and Right Wing are acting like it did.

Democrats should call them out.

Yes... It's embarrassing to point that out. :sarcasm:

[bhikkhu]

29. Gibberish? I see short, complete sentences.

And they all do fit together to make a pretty simple point...

[salguine]

38. It failed by dumb luck, not because it was thwarted.

[MissDeeds]

51. Exactly

He got on board with everything he needed to blow the plane out of the sky. The bomb failed to detonate, and a variety of security measures failed to prevent him from getting on the plane in the first place. We got lucky.

[PurityOfEssence]

28. There's no need for gun control; sometimes people miss

How fucking crazy is THAT? It's the same argument.

We got LUCKY here, and it was a failure which could have been a catastrophe.

It's interesting that it's Detroit and on Christmas; it makes one think they wanted to incite violence against America's largest Muslim population in Dearborn.

The problem with terrorism is that people can get through. We need to be as careful as possible and think a few steps ahead of the zealots, but things are going to happen.

Obama did the right thing to point out that it was a failure, and the reactionaries who want to make a bigger deal out of this fairly sizable deal are assholes and will only convince each other, as if that really needs to be done. Supporters of the President who want to dismiss this as something that didn't actually succeed in blowing up a loaded airliner are completely missing the point. This was a failure. This was a lucky break. This is an embarrassment. This is most worrisome.

This kind of closed-ranks solidarity to automatically dismiss EVERYTHING that any detractors might say about the administration is ruinous. We don't want the monarchists to pull this kind of crap, and the same people who defend this fortuitous accident are the same ones who would have vilified Junior had this happened on his watch.

So, since you obviously need a reminder, here it is:

It was a huge, sloppy, dangerous failure.

The administration's person in charge of this made a horrible, stupid, casual, backhanded gaffe by trying to portray this as some proof of the validity of our methods when it's complete proof of the opposite.

Minimizing it, as is done in this thread, is disastrous to the rest of us on the left.

It was really, really, really close; it could have EASILY been a horrible religion-laden disaster that would have been a shocking blow to the country and western world.

Those who bellyache too much about the failure are no stupider than those who minimize the incident.

[Powdered Toast Man]

31. I'm not trying to minimize anything;

Just point out that the guy still failed.

That point seems to have been lost.

And quite frankly, there is only so much our government can really do to stop future attacks. They can't be everywhere all the time checking on every single person; nor do we really want them to be.

Yes, it could have been very bad.
Yes, you could even call it a fluke that he was not successful.

But, I like to believe in the greater point; He Wasn't.

For whatever reason, whatever your beliefs... the plane didn't crash.

Fluke... Luck... Destiny... The plane didn't crash.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted sub-thread

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[boppers]

42. The measures in place to stop functioning explosives worked.

Just like the shoe bomber, there was no detonation, because we actively look for detonation mechanisms and devices. Sure, he had PETN, which can be nasty stuff when detonated, but it's also fairly *hard* to detonate (comparatively)... he only managed to make a small fire.

If we were to try and stop all *flammable* devices, well, get ready to fly naked.

[dkf]

45. Measures like expecting other passengers to jump the bad guys?

Well then I guess that did work.

I saw a video of what that amount of explosives could do to a plane. It pretty much destroyed it. Exactly what did he do wrong in the detonation phase? Is the typical Al Qaeda training bumbling enough to prevent catastrophe?

[hulka38]

46. More importantly, is that bumbling what our authorities are counting on?

I mean, is that the plan? Some people seem to be satisfied with that.

[boppers]

50. He did not reach detonation. He also did not shape the reaction.

I don't know much about Al Queda training, but consider this:

Our (the US) guys built a nuclear weapon riding around on horseback.

Literally.

Visit the Trinity site if/when you can, it's jaw dropping.

In comparison to our guys on horses, making nuclear weapons... and their guys on horses, who can't even make a minor chain explosion work, the two worlds are very different.

Having a highly educated populace is a huge difference.

[dkf]

55. So if he knew what he was doing could he have created a good detonation

With what he had on the plane?

[boppers]

56. I'm not sure what materials he had in addition to the PETN.

Assuming he knew what he was doing, and had the right stuff, it's not impossible.

[slackmaster]

54. It's trivially easy to detonate PETN without a traditional detonator

I won't do bombers a favor by posting the recipe here.

[boppers]

59. Define "trivial".

Some chemical and engineering education is required.

[slackmaster]

61. My high school chemistry class taught me everything I need to know about that

Supplemented with a little library research that any reasonably bright 16-year-old could do.

[boppers]

63. ...and I can build a functioning nuclear weapon, or global computer virus, based on my background.

"Reasonably Bright", with access to knowledge, is not a common trait in people willing to kill themselves in religious wars.

Indeed, education is perhaps the only thing that has *kept* the violence levels so low. As soon as people become that educated, they start questioning living and dying for faith.

[marshall]

47. WE failed too, that's the point

Yes, the bomber failed--but it was because of his own ineptitude, not because of our security.

Our system, as Obama stated, not only failed, but failed at catastrophic proportions. The problem must be fixed before the terrorists find a more capable stooge to drug-mule their explosives onto a US bound plane.

[Powdered Toast Man]

49. Yes. I get that

But is it not more important that the terrorist failed?

[slackmaster]

53. Yes he failed, and so did the security measures that were supposed to keep explosives off of a plane

:nuke:

[cherokeeprogressive]

58. The only part that failed was the detonator. That could have been caused by a bad soldering gun.

Or a resistor or capacitor from a bad lot. Or a weak battery. Or a mis-wired circuit board.

You, my friend, are whistling past the graveyard.

He had 80 grams of PETN on an airplane. Watch what 20 grams can do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aleeJ9Rg4Hw

[Skittles]

60. they are very, very disappointed he failed

that's how fucking sick they really are

[burning rain]

62. FEAR THE EUNUCH BOMBER!

Or maybe laugh at the dumbass.

[bl968]

64. petn doesn't blow when burned...

Ya but what they are not making clear is that you need an explosive force to ignite PETN. You can't just spray chemicals on it to ignite it and expect it to blow.

"But one characteristic of PETN is that it does not easily detonate, and that apparently thwarted Mr. Abdulmutallab, officials said. Dropping it or setting it on fire will not typically detonate it, explosive experts said.

Usually, a shock wave from a blasting cap or an exploding wire detonator is needed to set off PETN. Mr. Abdulmutallab was reported to have used a syringe to try to inject a liquid into the explosive."

So neither the shoe bomber or the underwear bomber had any chance of succeeding. The thing is terrorists would know this, they do have fairly competent engineers, mostly U.S. Trained. So that leaves the question would terrorists want to scare the public, with very little risk of any damage much less collateral damage...

[MrMickeysMom]

65. I have a feeling that you have re-invented yourself here...

... baiter, I swear I've seen you under another name here.

Go ahead and alert, delete, bait, rinse, repeat, fool