We wanted a better bill. We are angry and disappointed in the result. Period.

[Armstead]

That does not make people who have tried to get this runaway train onto a better track are awful billkillers, or "fringe left malcontents,"or perfectionists, or Obama haters, unDemocrats, acolytes of any cult or blogger, Dean worshippers, "unrealistic" or any of the other crap that people feel the need to keep flinging.

Some critics of this bill do get more strident than others. Mea culpa. But except for a few wayward conservative trolls -- WE WANT THE SAME DAMN THING YOU DO. A BETTER HEALTHCARE SYSTEM! Period.

Disagreement over the strategy and the specifics of this bill, or even last-minute attempts to salvage some modicum of improvements, does not make us the enemy of Obama, Democrats or (especially) not of people who are currently locked out of healthcare because of the system we currently have.

[tridim]

1. Confused how you can be disappointed with a result that doesn't exist yet?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

5. It's fairly clear which direction the wind is blowing.

[tridim]

12. Amateur weather forecasting is not a "result"..

It's amateur weather forecasting.

If that's what the OP meant, fine, but don't pretend it's the final result.

[levander]

62. tridim, what do you think could possibly change that would make this bill not suck? n/t

[Armstead]

15. Any suggestion of change leads to being called "billkiller"

That doesn't auger well for any improvements that mean anything before this is rushed to passage.

I would be more than happy to eat crow if the House does something drastic, even if it is something like a teeeny tiny start towards expanding medicare access or a public option.

But I'm not holding my breath.

[rhett o rick]

19. Maybe I can help. The resulting bill can be no better than the best of the two current

House and Senate bills. And most likely it will closely resemble the weaker of the two. I hope that helps.

[ljm2002]

28. You must be really, really confused...

...if you think we all should just wait until a bill is signed before voicing our opinions, here, and to our representatives in Washington, D.C.

[tridim]

30. The OP is speaking in the past tense..

"wanted a bill" "result"

That's all I'm saying.

Relax.

[kenny blankenship]

52. You said that much more nicely than I could have

and much more than the situation required.
For etiquette above and beyond.

[rockymountaindem]

29. Oh come on...

Is Harry Reid going to pop out next week with a bill including a robust public option, and serious caps on what insurance companies can charge over the long term and yell "PSYCH!"

:eyes:

[tridim]

31. I'm not sure, but I do know the Bill isn't finished yet as the OP claimed. nt

[Armstead]

32. You might want to look up the definition of nit-picking

That is what you are doing. Yes a final bill hasn't been signed, and it's possible -- though unlikely -- that the House might do a few little tweaks.

And my post did allude to trying tpo get changes at this stage.

But don't hold your breath. This is already basically a done deal.

The New Head of the Democratic Party Ben Nelson has stated that he will withdraw his support if anything is changed. And the House is basically in the position of rubber stamping it (even if some raise symbolic protests.

[treestar]

2. We know.

[CakeGrrl]

3. When did the bill get reconciled, voted on and signed? I musta missed it. n/t

[Armstead]

6. If one even suggests any changes they are branded a "billkiller"

Look at the reaction to the threads about whether any of the reconciliation process should be televised.

Hardly augers well for any constructive changes at this point.

[rhett o rick]

21. The bill will be somewhere between the two bills passed. nt

[avaistheone1]

36. You are right. It is going to be a disaster.

There is no real health reform in this bill. Just another hand out to corporate American...this time to the health insurance companies.

[OHdem10]

4. Well put. Thank you

[SteppingRazor]

7. By the same token ...

people who are disappointed with the bill but recognize it as the best option currently available, and certainly better than killing the bill and attempting to start from scratch, are not sellouts, DINOs, Republican fellow travelers, or what have you.

You're correct. Almost everybody here wants the same thing. The only difference is in how much crap they're wiling to put up with to get there.

[Armstead]

11. I can only speak for myself....

I agree with you on that. I try to avoid such characterizations -- but my dander does get up when the stereotypes above get thrown without provocation.

[T Wolf]

8. It is an assumption that most people here want "A BETTER HEALTHCARE SYSTEM!" With the

"enthusiasm" with which so many have defended this POS over the last months, I would conclude that many DUers are as happy as pigs in shit with the insurance they have.

[dflprincess]

10. Anyone who is happy with the insurance they have now

has probably not had to use it for anything serious.

Insurance I got, I wanted access to care.

[zipplewrath]

14. Cost controls

We were promise REAL cost controls. Ya know, like being able to negotiate with drug companies. What we got was a regulatory measure that will allow the drug companies to lobby congress.

[levander]

63. Exactly, cost controls used to be the central issue...

I have no idea where the cost controls went in this whole thing. Health care reform was a major issue in Obama's candidacy. And, he ran on getting cost control first, mandates for universal coverage later.

Yeah, they fought hard for the public option to control costs, but just couldn't get the votes. But, the public option isn't the only way to control costs.

I really wonder if this bill didn't originate in the far flung left of the party, who's real desire was single payer. They didn't worry about what crap of a system they were creating, just so long as they got the public option as a fall back for everybody to go into. The public option, in their minds, would eventually grow into a single payer system. They fought for an entire year trying to get the votes for the public option, and when they finally had to give up, we were just left with a crap of a system and no public option to fall back on. But now, they gotta man up and vote for it now because they think they'll look even sillier than they do now if after a year of work, they don't pass anything.

[ClassWarrior]

9. Thank you Arm.

We all have more in common than not.

(Except for those wayward and rather transparent RW trolls.)

NGU.

[katandmoon]

13. K&R. Except I don't mind being called an Obama hater. I have come to absolutely loathe him.

[FrenchieCat]

17. It's ok. You don't have to like anyone!

[CakeGrrl]

18. Gee, who could have guessed?

:rofl:

[DevonRex]

26. So do Freepers and teabaggers. nt

[katandmoon]

38. I have news for you. You don't have to be a freeper or a teabagger to consider Obama a failure and .

a fraud.

[dionysus]

39. you'd be a close relative, however.

[katandmoon]

45. Keeping fooling yourself with that thought.

[DevonRex]

49. My dear Dion, so wonderful to see you again! nt

[dionysus]

51. why thank you :)

hope you had a great holliday season :hi:

[DevonRex]

56. We did and I hope the same for you.

:hi: and :hug:

[DevonRex]

43. Well, the birthers think he's a fraud, too. So let's add like the birthers to my original statement

[katandmoon]

46. Oh, I absolutely think he's an American citizen. But confuse the issue if you want to.

That's all you have left.

[bkozumplik]

16. well, you're one point on the spectrum

And it is a spectrum, from full throated praise of the president and congress, to calls for our leadership to get sacked.
I am disappointed on a large number of fronts. Really all of them. I cant think of any aspect of our current policies that I can agree with.
Everything from appointments of key staff, to fiscal policy, to the wars, to indicting the torturers, to health care has all been well beyond mismanaged.

I'm for calling failure when I see it, and not glossing it over. I dont think love-ins accomplish anything.

But I think I can agree with one point, "WE WANT THE SAME DAMN THING YOU DO. A BETTER HEALTHCARE SYSTEM! Period."
It's just that a lot of us disgree with how to go about that. The current "reforms" enhance the health insurance industry substantially for insubstantial concessions. We make the enemy (the health care industry) substantially stronger in the process, making health care reform that much harder later. We used powder, finally, but did it badly. Ironically, it leaves us with less powder later.
hilarious in a way. Tragic in many other ways.

[Armstead]

23. MY OP was a resonse to the broad brush being applied

You are right -- there is a spectrum of people who are enthused/supportive of Obama and the Democratic leadership to those who are angry/highly critical of then on a number of fronts.

The lack of recognition of that is what I was reacting to.

For example, I'm critical on some aspects of their performance, supportive on others and so-so on others. But to some, the mere fact that I am critical of the version of HCR that we got automatically brands me an Obama-hater or malcontent.

BTW -- You nailed it on what is really the core problem of this HCR bill.

[depakid]

20. We wanted a bill that would actually move toawrd solving the problems

rather than empowering and rewarding those who caused them.

[jtrockville]

40. Very well put.

Insurance is the problem.
Forcing people into the insurance system doesn't solve the problem, it aggravates it.

[uponit7771]

22. But when you read and hear folk who are "just" disappointed spout the same BULLSHIT as anti Obama...

...folk or killbillers then how is a person supposed to separate the two?

You wouldn't spout Limbaugh talking points and say you're not anti Obama and then expect to be taken seriously...

I honestly believe that the "disappointment" is way past just this bill...

[Armstead]

24. The extent and motives for the disaapointed are very varied

I hate this bill for a variety of what I consider to be legitimate reasons.

I share my hatred of it with Rush and the GOP -- but for the opposite reasons.

If dislike of the bill is considered part of the GOP talking points, nothing I can do about that....I assume the GOP thinks cancer is bad and puppies are cute, but that's no reason for us to oppose puppies and support cancer.

Also I'll also be more than happy to clap and cheer when Obama and Dem Congress do things I agree with. Or be mildly supportive when they do things I sorta agree with.

[PVnRT]

44. I see right-wing talking points every day about Afghanistan

coming from Obama supporters. So what does that say?

Not to mention fairly constant attacks on the liberal wing.

[levander]

64. If Limbaugh says it, you automatically dismiss it as anti-Obama?

Look, even a broken clock is right twice a day...

[inna]

25. KR, but...

you really shouldn't have to defend yourself.

You're absolutely in the right to dislike this bill and speak against it.

[Armstead]

27. Shouldn't have to defend most bill critics The concept of....

honest disagreement seems to have been lost by the wayside.

[HughMoran]

33. We?

Holy shit - we???????????????

[depakid]

34. I'd say 70+ percent of people constitutes "we"

leave it to the administration and Dems though to pander to the corporate right and turn popular and modestly effective legislation into a bill that lacks even majority support- and is both ineffective at solving the root problems of health care in the states- but one in which major benefits don't kick in- if they kick in AT ALL until 2014!

Heck of a job!

[avaistheone1]

37. +1

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

55. Don't worry. I'll never confuse you with others, not anymore

Not after I saw you ridiculing someone last night who is in a bad situation. That was the single cruelest thing I've seen done on this board since 2001. I'll never confuse you with anyone else.

[zulchzulu]

41. Do you have the link to the final bill that Obama signed?

I can't find the final bill that was passed and signed by Obama anywhere. I tried Google, Bing, Yahoo... nothing.

:crazy:

[TheKentuckian]

42. Yeah, that Senate bill won't be a part of this at all, just a formality.

That's the ticket!

[ProgressOnTheMove]

47. The emotion of dismay & despair just gives Inesita, we should see all setbacks as a motivator to ...

work for better Congress Democrats in Primaries and more progressives in midterms. So the likes of Lieberman can sit on the sidelines and watch how real government works. We never got a Democratic majority just 58 plus 2 independents. As soon as that was announced in the Senate I knew day 1 it would take miracle to do anything unless we hit the streets in 2010 to give an authentic filibuster proof majority. Yes, Sanders is on our side for most part and I honor all the great work he does but he can on principle pull another way if he chooses likewise Republican leaning Lieberman. Sanders is the man, no doubt, but the bottom-line no Democratic filibuster proof majority was achieved. I mean did folks sincerely feel that Lieberman who worked hard for McCain most likely expecting a cabinet position would play nice in our majority. Hopefully he understands the folly of any more malarky. Then folks say change the fules on filibuster well they most likely won't given numbers and conservadems so we have to work within that reality or make more and more folks understand how the filitbuster works against good policy.

[Armstead]

48. That enthusiastic involv ement will only be there if the "left bashing" subsides

You post is probably correct.

However, the Democratic leadership and the "message machine" (pundits, "toe the line" DUers, etc.)make that less likely ebvery time they make spurious attacks on the "left."

That's my point.

[highplainsdem]

50. K&R

[mochajava666]

53. Rec. Well said.

[kenny blankenship]

54. I want a PUBLIC response to a public health care crisis arising from fall of the PRIVATE non-system

I DON'T want what the cheerleaders want. I want PROGRESS, not a patch on a criminally dysfunctional and MURDEROUS system of "health care" rent-seeking by private for-profit racketeers. Acquiescing to the gangsters buying my President and Congressional representation is not something I want, nor is it something that I will cheer on or smile at in others.

[mstinamotorcity]

57. Health care reform bill

has that been signed and made into law and no one told me.I have heard leaks and seen excerpts but didn't know it had gone through conference and was signed by our President. Did I miss something? It doesn't matter what gets done or not there will always be someone not satisfied.

[Armstead]

59. It's all but a done deal

You are expecting any major changes?

And there are damn good reasons many people are not satisfied

[Phx_Dem]

58. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

:cry:

[Armstead]

60. Well, when folks like you stop rinsing and repeating idiot insults, I'll shut up about it

[WeDidIt]

61. I've never seen you suggest Obama should lose in 2012

and for the most part, you've merely pointed out policy differences and not open hostility towards the Democratic Party.

From my experience, though, that makes you (and a very few others) the exception.