Congratulations! -- - AP: "Government Insurance Option Appears Doomed"

[Armstead]

Congratulations President Obama and Congressional Democrats, and everyone else who killed and supported killing the concept of public insurance.

You won.

The insurance industry thanks you especially

---------------------------------------------------------------------

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100109/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_overhaul

Government Insurance Option Appears Doomed
Associated Press
ExCerpt:

Senior House Democrats have largely abandoned hopes of including a government-run insurance option in the final compromise health care bill taking shape, according to several officials, and are pushing for other measures to rein in private insurers.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and other senior Democrats told President Barack Obama in recent meetings they want the legislation to strip the insurance industry of a long-standing exemption from federal antitrust laws, officials said. That provision is in the House-passed measure, but was omitted from the bill that the Senate passed on Christmas Eve.
MORE

[Armstead]

1. An Unrecommend? geeze I thought you'd be happy

[vi5]

2. I don't think it's as much...

..a matter of that the people who you are thinking of on here wanted the public option killed as it is they don't want anything bad to be said about Obama or the democratic leadership. So if any of those democratic leaders supported, or recommended, or caved to people who wanted it killed, then on here it's more a matter of "get in line and clap louder" than it is that they actually wanted it to be killed. If it had actually passed and it had actually been forcefully fought for then these same people would be the first ones lining up to thump their chests and take some sort of credit.

[Armstead]

3. You're right -- But I'd rather this had been killed for legitimate reasons

I could understand someone opposing a government plan for some actual reason.

But to be in favor of it while supporting its destruction strikes me as.....well, not quite right.

:-(

[tritsofme]

4. Yes, the public option is still dead.

[Armstead]

25. Thank you Chevy

[depakid]

5. So much for Schrödinger's Cat

and so much for the Dem's chances in 2010.

[Armstead]

7. What the heck is Schrödinger's Cat?

Inquiring minds want to know

[depakid]

10. It's a classic thought experiment in quantum physics

A cat, along with a flask containing a poison, is placed in a sealed box shielded against environmentally induced quantum decoherence. If an internal Geiger counter detects radiation, the flask is shattered, releasing the poison that kills the cat.

The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics implies that after a while, the cat is simultaneously alive and dead. Yet, when we look in the box, we see the cat either alive or dead, not both alive and dead.

Schrödinger and Einstein had exchanged letters about Einstein's EPR article, in the course of which Einstein had pointed out that the quantum superposition of an unstable keg of gunpowder will, after a while, contain both exploded and unexploded components.

To further illustrate the putative incompleteness of quantum mechanics, Schrödinger applied quantum mechanics to a living entity that may or may not be conscious. In Schrödinger’s original thought experiment, he describes how one could, in principle, transform a superposition inside an atom to a large-scale superposition of a live and dead cat by coupling cat and atom with the help of a "diabolical mechanism". He proposed a scenario with a cat in a sealed box, wherein the cat's life or death was dependent on the state of a subatomic particle. According to Schrödinger, the Copenhagen interpretation implies that the cat remains both alive and dead (to the universe outside the box) until the box is opened.

Schrödinger did not wish to promote the idea of dead-and-alive cats as a serious possibility; quite the reverse, the paradox is a classic reductio ad absurdum.

[Armstead]

13. Um, now I get it.....

:crazy:

But leads to a phychological/poltical riddles.

Was the public option dead from the start, only to appear alive until Obama and Baucus and nelson and Reid unleashed the poison flask?

:crazy:

[IndianaGreen]

20. Public option is probably alive and well in a parallel universe

a universe in which 10 million new jobs were created by a New Deal version of Barack Obama, instead of the Hoover version we got in our universe.

[Armstead]

24. ....You mean a parallel universe like most of the rest of the civilized world?

[tavalon]

40. It was both alive and dead, according to that example

which is where it breaks down. The public option was never alive, except in the public.

[DCBob]

56. This supposed "paradox" has been debunked in that the cat itself is a "legitimate" "observer"..

which "forces" the collapse of the wave probability to one or the other possibility.

[asjr]

6. We aren't getting anything that resembles

a decent health care bill. And I found out today (I have Medicare Part D) that my Cymbalta prescription went from $39.00 per month to $58.00 per month. In one month. The pharmas have been doing double duty increasing their rates. That may not be much to anyone else but to me it is highway robbery.

[Armstead]

8. It's highway robbery to anyone.... who thinks

[QC]

9. But just imagine how dreamy Obama will look at the signing ceremony!

I hope they have it outdoors so he can wear those awesome sunglasses!

[Armstead]

11. I can;t wait to see Nelson and Baucus basking in reflected glory over his shoulder

[QC]

16. Maybe one of them can be holding Bo!

That would be almost too adorable!

[Armstead]

18. Bo gets better healthcare than many people -- and will continue to after this bill

[spiritual_gunfighter]

77. Maybe we will get an awesome photo thread

One can only hope!!!!

[IndianaGreen]

26. I fully expect Joe Lieberman to be in the White House photo

and all of them will be smiling to the camera, which should be enough warning to us to grab our collective wallets and run for the hills.

[JVS]

28. You think he'll be wearing French cuffs? I hope so! Cufflinks are awesome.

[QC]

38. His cuffs make me feel all funny inside! n/t

[TransitJohn]

42. You should be ecstatic

that you get to participate in this shining moment of Change for America. :sarcasm:
Sorry to hear about that financial hardship. That's nearly double the rate!

[jefferson_dem]

12. Unrec.

Your premise is all fucked up.

But you already knew that.

[Armstead]

15. Why is my premise all fucked up? People wanted this bill and it had no option...therefore

"the bill" was more important than public insurance.

Those people who have been cheering this bill on should be happy that it is passing without a public option.

Pretty straightforward to me.

I am only being slightly sarcastic.

[IndianaGreen]

14. Here is a lie in the AP story: final compromise health care bill

Progressives were forced to surrender everything, while the corporate wing of the Democratic Party surrendered NOTHING!!!!! This is not a compromise at all, but a complete surrender to Wall Street and a betrayal of the working class by the Democratic political establishment.

It is also the largest middle class tax increase in decades!

[Armstead]

17. It's a compromise between the GOP's "no reform" and the Dem's shittyassed pseudo-reform

Therefore I guess it is a compromise.

[IndianaGreen]

22. A new definition for RINO = Reform In Name Only

Union families will vote against those that supported a tax on their health benefits.

[Capn Sunshine]

19. While your premise is all fucked up

It sure would have been better to start with single payer and negotiate from there. I don't get what part of getting this done in the face of monstrous corporate power you don't understand.

Passing this in the face of the huge embedded corporate resistance that dates back over 50 years is the foot in the door, not the elephant in the room.

[IndianaGreen]

21. This is no foot in the door, Capn Sunshine, unless we are speaking of Room 101

in Orwell's 1984.

[Armstead]

23. Corporate power enabled by the politicians who are supposed to represent US

The only reason corporations have monstrous power is because the leadership in the Democratic chooses to give it to them.

I am a realist and was willing to give up a lot for a step forward -- but I was not prepared for such a complete cave in and sell out.

[JVS]

29. When this started, Obama was very popular and insurance companies were nearly universally hated.

Obama is a man who is capable of garnering public support simply by giving speeches. People like him and want to support his plans. For example, his speech about escalation in Afghanistan increased public support for a rather unpopular war. Another example is the speech he gave to save his campaign from the Wright controversy. It would not have been hard for Obama to spend some time demonizing the insurance industry and eroding it's political clout by making any support of the industry akin to supporting child molesters. Instead he claimed that they provide a legitimate service, threw single payer out of the mix, with the compromise of public option (a very popular idea, even if it was a compromise), and eventually compromised that away too when Lieberman and Nelson played him. At any point in this, he could have started painting the opponents to useful reform as enemies of the public, but the only thing like that that happened was Rahm's message discipline exercises that came after the plan had turned to shit. Now his approval rate is about 10% lower than at the start of this debacle. This has been an exercise in poor leadership.

[Armstead]

31. It's fucking ironic that Obama only turned on the "mean machine" to smash liberal opposition

The Obama WH got its act together and put the "you WILL go along with us" machine into gear after the bill had become a gift to the insurance industry.

Just think of what we might have gotten if the WH had actually put that muscle behind a public option/medicare expansion earlier on, instead of rolling over those who wanted reform.

[HughMoran]

37. you have no idea what was going on behind the scenes

"Oh, but I saw in on da cable news shows!"

No.

[tavalon]

41. Yeah, behind the scenes, they are playing chess

and we only see a badly played game of checkers.

I hope that meme goes away soon, along with the "He's only been in office for __________." (insert length of time here)

[HughMoran]

47. Maybe when

the dozens of ridiculous things that those who can't find a nice thing to say about the man cease. Until then, there's no incentive than to say what I believe is a valid argument. I personally could care less if someone chimes in talking about 'memes' and making essentially no argument at all except 'I see it my way, you see it yours.' OK, what-ever!

[tavalon]

51. I'm guessing you think I didn't participate in President Obama's

election. You might even think I didn't actually pound the pavement for the guy. You would be wrong, though.

[HughMoran]

62. Logical Falacy

I made no such assumption. Your argument is still a bad one.

[Armstead]

64. Um, I thought this was going to be the most transparent process ever

[HughMoran]

66. It may have been

...though your argument is not provable either way.

[robinlynne]

71. and why is that?

[dreamnightwind]

53. Exactly

Though instead of ironic I'd say revealing.

This really matches my own perceptions, it seems the time Obama and his peeps show fire and resolve is when they're putting the left in its place. I've seen this on a number of issues. Bullies, establishing their centrist credentials by beating up on the weak left. Clinton and his people did the same in the 90's.

[ima_sinnic]

55. +++1 million --- I've tried to say this in so many ways

and you've done it so much better.

Obama has the power to move the public and, by extension, the politicians, but he stopped using that power as soon as he got our votes. after that, he became the laissez-faire president so helplessly "obstructed" by congress who "can't get anything done."
He got the country excited about some vague undefined "health care reform," with empty promises of "a big table," and then walked away, letting Max Baucus and the teabaggers shape the outcome. He's simply a highly skilled front man for the corrupt payola-grubbing corporate kiss-asses.
This has worked very well for them. For the rest of us, not so well.

[donco6]

30. The only resistance from corps came BEFORE they got everything they want.

Have you seen an ad against it since then? I haven't.

[TransitJohn]

44. This is the foot in the door alright,

the foot in the door of gutting Medicare, and privatizing it. Then they'll come after Social Security. All brought about by the Democratic Party. Republicans are laughing.

[glitch]

49. Republicans are furious

because their corporate masters no longer find them necessary.

[MadHound]

76. Yes, we should have started with single payer,

And used public option as the compromise position. But the fact of the matter is that Obama and the Democrats rolled into this health care reform debate with all the chips on their side. They had huge majorities in Congress, they had the White House, they had the public at large on their side, and a massive amount of political capital.

The trouble is the Democrats bungled it, badly. First, they let this go on past the August recess, thus allowing the hate radio folks and Faux news to get their "base" riled up. Then the Democrats simply failed to fight for any damn thing in this bill.

Yes, there was monstrous corporate power, but the party had all the tools, and then some to successfully combat that power. Apparently all they lacked was the heart and spine to do so, and now we're all going to pay the price, while those Dems will be able to skate away with their Congressional health plans:puke:

[davidwparker]

27. not a dimes worth of difference between the two of them. n/t

[CTLawGuy]

32. Obama and most congressional dems

are disappointed that a public option could not pass the senate. To say they wanted the public option to fail is ridiculous and slanderous.

[Armstead]

33. Many Congressional dems are disappointed. Obama? I'm not so sure

Frankly, I think he didn't give a damn about it.

I kept waiting for him to say something pro-active about it, rather than just "gee maybe that's one idea Congress might consider..."

yes he did say at some points "Any plan I have must have a public options" but tyhat was inevitably followed by the "maybe,possibly" bullshit.

[HughMoran]

36. argumentum ad ignorantiam

You have no idea what Obama is thinking.

Stop assuming the worst.

[tavalon]

45. No one gets an inside view into his head

The only way for us to know what he's thinking is for him to talk about it. He did decidedly little talking about the health insurance "reform". His demeanor was disinterested. And demeanor and speech are really the only thing any of us can go on. Including you.

[HughMoran]

48. So he gave no speeches on the matter? Had no private meetings with Congress

Disinterested my ass - what an insulting thing to imply. Only someone looking for fault would use such biased terminology.

[tavalon]

50. Private meetings on a hot political issue?

Not incredibly astute if that's how he played it.

[HughMoran]

60. In your extremely negatively biased opinion

Your bias removes all credibility in my opinion. You can say the same about me if you wish - but YOU are the one trying to prove a negative, not me.

The argument from personal incredulity, also known as argument from personal belief or argument from personal conviction, refers to an assertion that because one personally finds a premise unlikely or unbelievable, the premise can be assumed to be false, or alternatively that another preferred but unproven premise is true instead.

[Armstead]

63. That's the problem -- I've been trying to figure that out for a year

I've been trying to figure that out for a year. Which version of Obama am I supposed to believe? The one who said any bill he signs MUST have a strong public option? or the one who said "Maybe a public option wold be nice but I don't really care what Congress sends me." Or the more recent Obama who said he never really believed in a public option and never thought it was worth trying for?

[dflprincess]

34. Obama is now claiming he never he wanted a public option

Supposedly Pelosi stripped the Kucinich amendment from the House bill at Obama's request (that would have allowed the states to find real solutions, like single payer, for themselves.)

The Senate bill is exactly what Obama and his DLC buddies wanted. Protection for their corporate donors at our expense and Obama will babble at the SOTU about how "historic" this is - but I'm sure he'll make it sound real pretty.

[dreamnightwind]

39. yes

This sums up my interpretation pretty well.

I'm still waiting for all of the cheerleaders who kept telling us how he was playing chess, how it was only a ploy to get to the conference where the bold cost controls would be slipped in, etc etc, there was no end to their mental gymnastics telling us how we were being much too cynical and that Obama was really on our side, I'm still waiting for those people to come on here and apologize, to fess up about how wrong they were, and how the derided cynics were in fact correct.

Where are you people now, huh? Probably just shifting to the next level of spin, never coming to grips, just like the repubs still insist the Iraq war was justified.

[TransitJohn]

46. Don't forget we're really whining

about not getting our ponies!
Is your user name from China Cat Sunflower? :hi:

[dreamnightwind]

52. yes

Good catch on China Cat, a little obscure.

The pony we got is the mandate to pay pretty much whatever the anti-trust exempt insurance corps collude to setting their prices at (I believe this collusion is legal as long as they have the anti-trust exemption), for crappy coverage where we'll still have to fight to get approval from those same corps for reimbursement for any actual healthcare services we end up requiring. Gotta take a breath after that sentence.

They shoot lame horses, don't they? I wouldn't, except in this case I'd make an exception.

[flyarm]

54. they are out cashing their checks!! eom

[CTLawGuy]

58. if it doesn't pass the senate with 60 votes

it can't happen. Not sure how many times progressives need that explained to them. The senate bill HAD the PO until Lieberman threatened to filibuster.

[dgibby]

68. Down in the BOG, trashing the rest of us. n/t

[CTLawGuy]

57. if so, then he is pretty sloppy

because he mentioned that he favored it DURING HIS ADDRESS TO THE JOINT SESSION OF CONGRESS!

[Armstead]

61. he was for it or "maybe" about it before he was against it now

Please don't claim he made a consistent push to include something in the direction of public insurance.

Of you were to look at transcropts of his statements and speeches, frankly ot would be impossible to tell whether he was really for it, against it or didn't care.

Let me make this clear from my perspective -- I would have been able to respect Obama much more if he legitimately was not for including any kind of public insurance (medicare expansion, public option, whatevewr) at this time for what he believed were practical or political reasons. I would disagree, but I would at least know where he and the democrats stood.

But I cannot abiode his shifting position, and the dangling of carrots and the complete reversal (several reversals) over the past year. That is NOT leadership -- or else it is successful leadership of the con-artist variety.

[dreamnightwind]

69. Correct

His MO is to keep his two masters happy. He needs the blessings of the corporations and also their money. He needs the votes of the people. So he acts like he wants to serve the people's interest so long as he really doesn't have to do anything that would anger his real masters, the corporations. I have to hand it to him, he's pretty skillful at this two-step. I wish he were more skillful at reigning in the rogue corporations that have their hands around our throats, in our wallets, and in the US treasury.

edited a typing mistake

[CTLawGuy]

75. teh korporashuz

are the explanation for everything :eyes:

[CTLawGuy]

74. a PO would only get 59 votes in the senate, if that,

which wouldn't have been enough. The 60th is an egomaniacial 'independent' with an ax to grind with the Democrats. What do you want Obama to do?

He has always said that he thought the PO was the best way to keep insurance companies honest, but a PO is no good if it can't get passed. The president has decided that it is better to pass a basic framework than kill the entire bill because there is no PO.

[tavalon]

43. I want more from my President than disappointment

[HughMoran]

35. Not funny

unrec for taunting - this has been posted previously here (and you know it) and we all knew the PO wouldn't survive.

Oh, and it's contrary to fact stating that people are celebrating - thanks for keeping the friction high for your own entertainment.

[Armstead]

59. I didn't know it had been posted -- But yes I am angry and am probably taunting

I was not checking into DU as much the last couple of days and didn't know it had been posted. Frankly, when I saw the new article in my Yahoopage it set me off.

But yes, I am angry. And yes that came out as sarcasm. But mot far from reality. People are celebrating, calling a historic achievement, blah,blah,blah...And once it gets signed, the Democrats (both leadershop and cheerleaders) will be jumping up and down with joy.

What makes me angriest is that this is reform without the reform, and Democrats know it. They are playing the old Okey Doke (as President Obama said in another context) saying one thing, while knowing the opposite is true, because the two real keys to healthcare reform were thrown out the window.

Even the tiny beginning of the concept of public insurance was thrown out. And what regulation it contains is toothless, and allows the insurance to continue to gouge the public with rates -- and now can do it by force of law.

And I am angry that THIS is the best we could do? And that the party leaders and people here on DU were so eager to toss even a tiny little step in that direction overboard. And then call those who believe we ought to push for the core principle of real reform "bill klillers" etc.

O'm beginning to thin k it's the best the Democratic leadership WANTED to do. They didn't want to mess with the sticky concept of real public insurance. That would be too "radical" and make those teabaggers angry. Better to make "the left" angry so those mean old Republicans don't get a chance to call Democrats "big government socialists who want to take over healthcare."

Oh, wait. The GOP is saying that anyways.And they'd going to be saying that all through 2010.

[HughMoran]

65. argument from personal incredulity, argumnent ad anti-cheerleader

You anger and personal biases are making it impossible for me to have a reasonable discussion with you.

We've been rehashing this over and over again - you, I and others - repeating the same arguments over and over again isn't going to change the reality of the situation - this was the best compromise achievable with the Blue Dog and Nelson/Lieberman's of the world.

[Armstead]

70. Discussions don't matter anymore -- I'm just venting

One of the many functions of DU is to provide a place to vent...

So, I'm venting.

[ibegurpard]

72. this was not a compromise

this was a complete and total sellout.

[depakid]

73. The reality of the situation is that this could have been accomplished via reconciliation

but the administration and Senate "leadership" lacked the political will and fortitude.

Either that- lacking courage to proceed against the corporate interests- or simply because they were in their pockets all along.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

78. I am all for rehasing this over and over

at least until people like my girlfriend who is currently uninsured and has a life threatening illness can get affordable and quality healthcare. Without the PO it is going to be much more difficult to do so, but you obviously are more worried about "rehashing" things that might put our President in a negative light.

Might want to reevaluate your priorities.

[Blasphemer]

67. Not holding my breathe on the anti-trust exemption being stripped. They will lose Senate votes.. nt

[Capt. America]

79. Surrendercrats. No wonder the Rethugs hate you so, you capitulate when you are in the minority and

the majority.

[high density]

80. AP has said this every week or two since August

Is it really true now?