FACTS MATTER: Candidate Obama DID promise a Public Option (O'Donnell).

[freddie mertz]

Watch it for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96U-7lILbXc

FACTS MATTER.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ShortnFiery]

11. LOL ...

this would be hilarious if not for the tragedy the American People will be living out in years to come ... his behavior as President certainly doesn't mirror his REPEATED promises on the campaign trail.

Different person? Hell to the "yes." :blush:

[pnwmom]

2. He supported a public option. That doesn't mean he could force the Senate

to pass one.

[bigwillq]

3. Fine, Just don't be a flip-flopper!

"I supported a public option before I didn't support a public option" :rofl:

[pnwmom]

12. He has never said he doesn't support one. But why should he advertise

his difficulty in getting one through the Senate?

Just to satisfy people who want him to eat crow?

[freddie mertz]

19. He denied he ever ran on it. Which was patently untrue.

Don't want him to eat crow.

Just do the right thing and try to speak the truth.

[krawhitham]

62. Candidate Obama dd NOT PROMISE a Public Option

He said he would like one, hell we all would like one. He did not say it was public option or nothing

do you people not understand the fucking English language?

[freddie mertz]

65. He said "I did not CAMPAIGN" on a PO. Not "promise." Though he DID promise later.

As president.

"Must."

[bigwillq]

22. He said he never campaigned on it.

Which is false. That is my issue. I understand the complexity of Congress, although I didn't think very many fought hard enough for single-payer or a public option. At least go down fighting. This so-called bill is probably the best they can do right now, since they pretty much caved to the repukes. Let's hope the bill can be improved upon after final passage.

[Land Shark]

73. A Promise is more binding than "campaigning on" the same. One can campaign on meaningless THEMES

like "we need bold leadership for the 21st century, leadership that's visionary and without conflicts of interest so common in Washington's revolving door." That may be something to campaign on.

But a promise is something more. It only needs to be made publicly once for the television cameras to be a promise to the nation, in the age of TV.

on edit: I used the word "binding" but i realize promises are not legally enforceable per se. It would ill behoove someone defending president Obama on this particular point to point that out, but here's hoping we won't waste time. The non-enforceability makes it all that much more important that a political price be paid, otherwise there's no price at all for breaking campaign promises, and thus no incentive to keep them.

[GinaMaria]

150. 'caved to the repukes'

but the repukes won't vote for it. And we better believe they will run on that stand. Vote R cause we didn't vote for this mess! Even though this stinks of repuke policy, they will be able to say their hands are clean. Depressing.

[Hello_Kitty]

4. But he doesn't have to act like he never campaigned on it, as he's doing now.

That's adding insult to injury.

[pnwmom]

15. Clinton and Edwards were always stronger on the public option than Obama.

That's why I was leaning toward Clinton early on. I argued this point with many Obama supporters at the time. If they're feeling betrayed now, it's only because they expected more than Obama was ever promising. They heard what they wanted to hear.

[Hello_Kitty]

17. I heard candidate and President Obama promise a public option several times

I wasn't imagining it and it's frankly insulting for you to suggest that I did.

[pnwmom]

26. Show me where he used the word "promise." As opposed to "support." n/t

[freddie mertz]

28. Are you trying to to be funny? nt.

[pnwmom]

32. No. I think there's an important difference between the words. n/t

[freddie mertz]

39. The word of contention in this case is "campaigned"....

To be specific, the issue here is whether he "campaigned" on the PO.

As O'Donnell put it, this could all boil down to what the meaning of "Campaigned" is.

Politifacts generously (IMHO) gave the prez a "barely true" rating on the statement... which is there rating JUST ABOVE "false."

You can check that at NJMaverick's link.

[jgraz]

102. Especially with someone as untrustworthy as Obama.

Next election, get it in writing.

Oh wait.. he put it on his web site. Which also doesn't count.

Next election... um... I don't know. I guess your suggestion is that no matter what Obama says, we should assume he's bullshitting us.

[Hello_Kitty]

30. Now you're just being an ass. Buh bye. eom

[tridim]

Taking your ball and going home?

You just lost the debate. It might be a better strategy to answer her question instead of quitting like Palin.

[Armstead]

75. We're gonna set up a public plan....." On the U-Tube video

[freddie mertz]

81. Yes, he definitely campaigned on it.

I think the denial was a very small, cheap attempt to dodge responsibility for breaking the promise, which is way less than we had been lead to expect from him.

[shopgreen]

111. your pretzel "logic" is downright just plain silly!!

[freddie mertz]

6. Different issue. Though it is not clear that he tried to "force" anything.

If anything, evidence points to a willingness to drop it without a fight long before it came to that ("sliver" speech this summer).

[inthebrain]

36. You mean those same senators, that when they ran, also promised a public option?

[brentspeak]

56. Hard to "force" the Senate to pass a PO when he didn't even bother to push for one

Obama has done exactly jack-squat in regards to a public option. He lied about it as a presidential candidate, as a U.S. senator, and as a state senator just to the public to like him.

[freddie mertz]

66. He signaled very early his willingness to give it up in fact.

The "sliver" speech and others were designed to help Baucus with his doomed negotiations with the Pukes.

From then on, the PO's days were almost certainly numbered.

As I knew at the time, but caught a lot of shit from the usual suspects for pointing out.

[Kltpzyxm]

71. No. He couldn't force them.

But he could have threatened to veto any plan without a public option.

[freddie mertz]

72. He came closest to that with "Any bill I sign MUST.."

But I guess he forgets that now.

[goclark]

77. Ding,ding,ding

He supports a lot of things but unless he can get the Congress to go along, what he wants he has to keep pushing.

[jgraz]

95. Of course, he forces the Senate to *filibuster* drug re-importation

Why is it he's suddenly so powerful when his sweetheart deal with Billy Tauzin and Big Pharma is threatened?

[karynnj]

149. Pretty easy to explain -

To get a public option, the people ne would need to move are Republicans and Lieberman. On filibustering the reimportation, he needs to influence the people allied to him who care if the entire plan is destroyed.

[shopgreen]

110. Obama also said he would veto any bill without a public option!

[Generator]

114. He spouted meaningless platitudes to convince people

to vote for him. That doesn't mean he would actually do them. Obama in case you didn't notice is a "new Democrat". Those our his own words. I guess we are old Dems because we actually believe in something-all he believes in his own goddamn political career. Stop defending this scam artist. Frankly this place is embarrassing. You guys will defend war, torture, selling out gays, women, the poor and the middle class. Just like good old Bush defenders did.

All as long as a "democrat" does it. What a fucking farce.

[golfguru]

145. How often did you see him use the bully pulpit

The president has the biggest bully pulpit in town and
I don't recall Obama using it for PO.

Hillary would have gone all out on that issue of PO and even SP.

[NJmaverick]

5. Facts do matter

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/dec/23/barack-obama/public-option-obama-platform/

[freddie mertz]

7. O"Donnell provides real proof, from Obama's own words and campaign website.

Next.

[NJmaverick]

54. Simply put- No he doesn't

[freddie mertz]

60. Who you gonna believe? Your own eyes and ears? nt.

[Texastornado]

10. You linked to Politifact, but their article mostly disagrees with you

Obama's statement that he didn't campaign on the public option was rated as "barely true," which is the a verdict closest to "false" than it is of "true." This is the chain:

1-True
2-Mostly True
3-Half True
4-Barely True
5-False
6-Pants on Fire

Besides, Politifact lists the public option as Obama's promise #518. Do you disagree with Politifact? Should they have not included this as a promise? If so, why do you link to Politifact?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promise/518/create-public-option-health-plan-new-national-heal/

[freddie mertz]

13. Wonderful catch! LOL X 50000000!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :patriot:

[NJmaverick]

55. Barely true means the people accusing the Presdient of lying

are the ones with a problem with the truth.

[freddie mertz]

59. Not really. It means they decided to call it "just short" of a lie.

Not "Essentially true."

Not half true."

It's "barely true."

Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

And I would call their evaluation a generous one.

[NJmaverick]

63. Yes really, it's untrue and a false accuastion to accuse the President of lying

[freddie mertz]

64. The issue is whether the statement was true or not.

I think we can agree that its "truthyness" factor was not a high one.

"Barely true" at best, depending on what you think "campaigned on" means....

Read your own link.

[jgraz]

99. Which is a HUGE pass on what is an obvious falsehood.

Politi"fact", once again, proves there is no truth in domain names.

[Issaiah]

70. You ignored the other question: Why is the public option listed as promise #518?

I thought it wasnt a promise.

(?)

[KansasVoter]

8. This place should be pissed about the lie.........

I would just as soon him say he campaigned on it but admit he couldn't get it. But to lie about campaigning on it is a joke and makes him look like every other candidate.

Man up obama. Admit it.

[freddie mertz]

9. Obama's "Denial" of the PO promise was his lowest point so far.

If he said it two more times, a cock would crow.

[tridim]

29. And if we were all "pissed" about this..

What then? What's your next step?

Just to continue complaining about something that doesn't matter in the least, for the sake of complaining? Impeachment? Public flogging? Vote for Republicans instead? :eyes:

I couldn't even function day-to-day if my outrage was that focused. Look at the big picture and things will become clear.

[freddie mertz]

34. All we want are the FACTS, ma'am. The truth shall set you free.

[tridim]

37. The fact is that President and Candidate Obama supported the PO

It was never a guarantee, he's not that stupid.

[freddie mertz]

41. He claims he never campaigned on it. nt.

[KansasVoter]

57. And he is lying.

[tridim]

87. He campaigned on Health Care Reform..

and he will deliver it within the month.

You people are nuts. Seriously.

[freddie mertz]

103. The Dems and WH call it "Health INSURANCE reform" now.

For a very good reason.

It is NOT Health Care Reform anymore.

[girl gone mad]

79. Maybe an anecdote from my lunch today can help elucidate the big picture..

The scene was a nice cafe in N. Dallas. I was drinking a cappuccino alone while catching up on some reading. At the table beside me sat 4 women, approximately 50ish and older. I'm not one to eavesdrop, but I caught quite a bit of the animated conversation they were having. The topic of discussion was primarily the health reform bill. These ladies seemed to know bits and pieces of the goings on, and they were not happy campers. No teabaggers, they; Each one an avowed Barack voter. Yet all shook their well coiffed heads in agreement when the eldest said, with sadness, "I just don't trust him anymore. I think he tells lies."

[tridim]

86. Maybe it's because they've been constantly lied to about the bill?

My Mother is convinced she's going to lose her Medicare and be put to death by a death panel.

Old =/= wise.

[dflprincess]

132. Wait until Rahm turns his sites on Medicare and Social Security "reform"

The DLC has been looking for ways to do away with those programs for years and once this insurance scam is passed they'll probably start working on dismantling what little remains of the New Deal and Great Society.

[jgraz]

101. The big picture is that we thought we were voting for a different kind of politician.

Remember HOPE and CHANGE? Which part of that includes lying to your constituents?

[invictus]

141. +1

[flyarm]

14. K&R..the unrec crew is working hard to make this dissapear!! eom

[freddie mertz]

16. They try hard, because they know that FACTS MATTER, and thus FEAR the facts.

[gravity]

18. Obama failed at achieving the public option

And he downplayed its importance in the campaign to save face.

I don't understand why all this outrage is directed towards Obama. Lieberman and a handful of moderates in the Senate were the ones responsible for taking it out.

[freddie mertz]

23. Because he refuses to just level with us and tell us the truth?

Is that so much to ask?

I could understand if he really did fight for it.

(I don't think he did, there is no strong evidence that he did, and lots that he did not.)

I could even understand if he ADMITTED that he gave it up to get to a final bill faster (which I think is in fact true).

But denying he ever promised it is an insult to our intelligence, and is beneath him.

[gravity]

35. Saying that looks bad politically

Obama wants the public to focus on his accomplishments, not what he failed to achieve. It is a politically calculated move.

[freddie mertz]

42. He didn't need to deny the facts.

We have a right to expect and demand the truth.

"Transparency," as he called it.

[treestar]

129. You're putting more importance on him than on getting some sort of

health care plan. Who cares if he dodged it - maybe it shows some sort of personal failing, but why would his apologizing and bowing and scraping help get a public option? Perhaps he could go on national TV and trash Lieberman and Nelson, but that would hurt him for future legislation.

[tridim]

25. The outrage is directed at Obama because their outrage is ALWAYS directed at Obama

No matter what. There is proof all over the DU archives. We all know who killed the PO, and it wasn't Obama.

IMO it's some form of PTSD from the primary last year, these people are unable to move on.

[freddie mertz]

33. Actually, I only posted this because the facts were denied here today.

In a thread that claimed that FACTS MATTER.

[dflprincess]

131. If the public option was important to Obama - as he once claimed

he'd veto the bill. He used to think we should have access to care, not just be forced to pay for insurance.

Signing the Insurance Company Profit Protection Act just so he can claim he signed something when he gives the SOTU is bullshit.

I hope he still doesn't think he'll be the last president to deal with healthcare. By digging the for profit companies in deeper, he's just making it harder to achieve real reform in the future.

[stray cat]

20. Oh No! Now I have to vote Republican - clearly more trustworthy!

[katandmoon]

21. THAT'S all you got from this? Sad.

[IndianaGreen]

27. Union families hard hit by ObamaCare's tax on their health benefits

will vote against those that stood their class interests. That's a fact of life!

[ProSense]

24. Yes he promised, and it passed in the House and not the Senate.

Still, the bill is significant reform.

Facts matter.

[freddie mertz]

31. Except sometimes, when FACTS ARE DENIED.

Which is what prompted my posting this thread.

PS "Significant reform" is an opinion, not a fact.

[ProSense]

38. You can continue to be outraged over a comment, but

facts are facts. The President clarified his remarks:



Transcript: Obama Talks With PBS' Jim Lehrer

<...>

MR. LEHRER: And let's say, for instance, the public-option plan: It's in - it's in the House version; it's not in the Senate version.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Right.

MR. LEHRER: All right. What is - what's going to be your position when you sit down and talk about this?

PRESIDENT OBAMA: You know, look, I've been in favor of the public option. I think the more choice, the more competition we have, the better.

On the other hand, I think that the exchange itself, the system that we're setting up that forces insurance companies to essentially bid for three million or four million or five million people's business, that in and of itself is going to have a disciplining effect.

Would I like one of those options to be the public option? Yes. Do I think that it makes sense, as some have argued, that, without the public option, we dump all these other extraordinary reforms and we say to the 30 million people who don't have coverage, "You know, sorry. We didn't get exactly what we wanted"? I don't think that makes sense.

<...>

Fact: He campaigned on health care reform that included a public option. The House passed it, the Senate didn't.

[freddie mertz]

40. He is obviously backpedaling here from "must"....

That is another issue.

I would rate "must" as a promise myself.

But in the end, the question HERE is about the CAMPAIGN, and it rises or falls on how we define the word "campaigned"....

As O'Donnell makes very clear.. it's a squishy distinction AT BEST.

Politifacts agrees, "barely true"...

(see my OP link and NjMaverick's link)...

[TheKentuckian]

78. Then why is it okay for him to just throw out a near Republican like clumsy, stupid, arrogant lie

and say he never campaigned on the public option, when God and everybody knows he did and its on camera all over the place.

Its totally at least a Hillary in Bosnia under a hail of bullets "fuck you stupid proles, you'll eat this shit up with a spoon" douchebag whopper and you and all even moderately paying attention well know it.

If you're going to talk to and about your supporters and constituents, its best to keep it out of general earshot. It shows a high level of disrespect to me when you play the edit/delete game with reality and I didn't expect that from Obama. If you're going to be a prick at least don't be all sloppy with it.

Also, keep in mind that it tends to thin out your friends when you dump on them to worship douchebags and villains, while douchebags and villains are just waiting for their chance to pounce. He's never going to make friends with the establishment bastards no matter how sweet they talk and his cock ass is going to get lit up. Who's fault will it be? Fucking A right it'll be his fault. Obama used to reasonably honest folks and navigating a path but these sharks are out for blood not a nice cup of tea and a game of chess.

Until Obama stands up to power instead of bullying the people on his side, the motherfucker is a punk. I've seen many a punk grow up and I welcome it with open arms and the fatted calf but so far the only muscle flexed is towards those working in the interests of the people and he's a fool for it because if he stays with the people the people will hang with him generations after he is gone. However, the fucks he makes nice with and facilitates could place the order that ends his life no matter how much lapdog he plays.

Come on Barack, I'll settle for a half a loaf but that fucked up sliver of a heel can't even fold over into a little half sandwich man! What the fuck are we going to do with a sliver of a damn heel?
Send big Bubba and a couple of black suits over to explain to Liberman and friends that we got a lot of mouths to feed so they're going to have to give up a few slices and not to start nothing or so much as pout about or else, see.

[StarfarerBill]

43. Hey! You're stealing someone else's cliche! For shame! K&R

;)

[freddie mertz]

44. It's a kind of "response" thread. THIS was one of the FACTS denied over there.

So I figured, well, if FACTs really do matter....right?

[StarfarerBill]

45. Of course they matter; and when faced with them, the locksteppers stumble in their backpedaling.

It's just nice to see a cliche actually have some real use. So, thanks for your factual post. :)

[freddie mertz]

47. You are so welcome!

[jaxx]

46. The senate bill offered an exchange for those without insurance.

--As weak as it is in numerous areas, the Senate bill contains three vital reforms. First, it creates a new framework, the “exchange,” through which people who lack secure workplace coverage can obtain the same kind of group health insurance that workers in large companies take for granted. Second, it makes available hundreds of billions in federal help to allow people to buy coverage through the exchanges and through an expanded Medicaid program. Third, it places new regulations on private insurers that, if properly enforced, will reduce insurers’ ability to discriminate against the sick and to undermine the health security of Americans.

These are signal achievements, and they all would have been politically unthinkable just a few years ago.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/12/godfather_of_the_public_option.html

[freddie mertz]

49. Fine. But off topic. nt.

[jaxx]

51. Maybe not.

It's an option.

[freddie mertz]

52. By off-topic, I meant that the OP was about whether the prez CAMPAIGNED on a PO.

That was really all I was correcting.

We shall see what the bill ends up containing.

I wish I was more optimistic.

[MissDeeds]

48. Facts do matter

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, freddie.

K&R

[freddie mertz]

50. You bet!

[ima_sinnic]

53. Obama succeeded in failing to achieve a public option--as planned

It appears the astroturfers have nothing left but desperate parsing to support their unconditional worship of everything Obama.

Does anybody have a link to where Obama even tried to make a case for a public option?
I must have missed that, because I've been under the impression that he used the term a few times, and made it seem that he was "for" one (without ever really explaining what it meant or how it could work), even "insisting" he wouldn't sign a bill without one, but then handed the job of "negotiating" healthcare "reform" to Max Baucus and walked away. He has indicated that he WILL sign a bill without a public option, that it didn't ever mean anything to him, thus proving himself to be a liar.

He promised a public option without doing jack in support of one. It "didn't have the votes"? gee, what a surprise--NOT.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

80. If Obama HAD been serious about the Public Option he would have made it central to the House Parties

for healthcare that took place in May/June. There is not a MENTION of the words "public option" in the insanely amateurish materials the White House provided for the House Parties. This is also where the White House dissipated the energies of the real reformers by making believe that they cared. What do you think happened to all those surveys and synopses that were passed back to the White House?

The House Parties were my first "uh oh" moment with healthcare reform as being packaged and marketed by the Obama White House.

[ima_sinnic]

83. interesting--I had never heard feedback about the house party materials

I do remember DUers posting questions about what, specifically, were the ideas and terms of Obama's reform plan, because they were getting embarrassed by questions about details.
I didn't get involved in house parties because I moved to a new town at the end of June and was embroiled in settling in, as well as the fact that I didn't know anybody.
So this was an orchestrated non-effort--that is disgusting.

[Egnever]

58. Sorry this particular fact doesn't matter

It isn't going to change a thing except perhaps your vote?

If you chose to vote for someone else next election thats your prerogative to be sure. I happen to think given the shitstorm he was handed Obama is doing a pretty decent job. A far cry better than I think his competition would have. I think he could do better in some areas but unless something better comes along next election and they have the support to defeat the republicans. I am pretty sure we are going to have this guy for the next 7 years. Theres a lot of time left in this presidency and I expect a lot of good stuff to come from it, and some bad.

Nothing matters at all about this particular fact it does nothing besides make an attempt to undermine the president. If thats what you are shooting for though...Grats you scored a bullseye! Yay you! :puke:

[freddie mertz]

61. If anything, the president undermined himself. I had nothing to do with it.

I just corrected the record that was being distorted elsewhere.

You are free to make of it what you will.

[brentspeak]

67. What does the situation Obama inherited from Bush have to do with HCR?

???

[treestar]

128. True, it is just not relevant any more

And I do recall posts complaining about it, and how only a few could use it.

[anAustralianobserver]

68. In the July 17 video it looks to me like he was still working for a public plan.

It seems to me that at some time after that he was intimidated into keeping the process of the reversal of his decision to work for it out of the public eye (whether or not it was technically still possible to attain it).

I don't think most of the people who are saying that this was a critical betrayal and disconnection enjoy playing gotcha with this at all.

[freddie mertz]

69. Far from it in my case. I look at this as a great tragedy.

So much promise has been squandered in this HCR process.

It's been ghastly to watch.

[Land Shark]

74. If Tiger was Pres: Tiger Woods never "campaigned on" fidelity, he "ONLY" promised it. WTF?? n/t

[flyarm]

76. He promised this too>>>>>>>>>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pO1oJPps1I&feature=player_embedded


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8wmN3wvhNM&feature=player_embedded

[freddie mertz]

82. and he never, ever mentions those, nor does the rest of the MSM except Cafferty, Stewart,

And O'Donnell on MSNBC.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mkultra]

88. couldnt care less

as reality is more important that this kind of tit for tat bullshit.

[freddie mertz]

89. Is there no "bullshit" in "reality."

Because seriously, when Obama said he did not campaign on the PO, that was "bullshit," and it is also a "reality" that he said it.

[mkultra]

100. still dont care. Its the way politics goes

All i care about is getting some progress done. That's happening so I'm good. If your expectations of politicians where so high that you are offended, then that's your problem.

[freddie mertz]

159. It is not my problem... It is all of our problem.

[DisgustedInMN]

90. I'm passed the point..

... where semantic games can be substituted for INTEGRITY...

FACTS DO INDEED MATTER.

I will remember this EVERY time I step into the voting booth and every time I get a request to "help our candidate/cause," be it by money (ain't got much anyway, been almost 2 years without a job and the prospects look really shitty) or time (got plenty of that) knocking on doors or phone banking.

YES I CAN. (and will)

[dionysus]

91. FACTS MATTER: it didn't have the votes in congress.

grow up already.

[freddie mertz]

92. Did he campaign on it or not?

[dionysus]

93. you act like he has messiah-like powers to bend reality. have you ever dealt

in reality? or would that get in the way of the constant, bitter whining?

[jgraz]

96. we assume he has messiah-like powers to control what comes out of his own mouth.

Did he lie about campaigning on the Public Option or didn't he?

[DisgustedInMN]

97. Why won't any of these...

... corporate apologists just answer that very straightforward question? And these _____ think we'll just give them a pass on this crap in the future elections...

..." 'cuz you got no where else ta go" ?????????????????????????????????????

[freddie mertz]

105. "Did he campaign on it?" is still the question.

Whether he fought for it is another one, related but distinct.

Indeed, his failure to even fight for it helps to explain his later attempt to deny that he campaigned on it.

If you insist that you "never campaigned" on it (even though you did), then maybe you can make the failure to fight for it a tiny bit easier to "explain."

[jgraz]

117. The real problem is we've elected another "meaning of *is*" politician

I was hoping we could avoid the bullshit parsing this time around. :banghead:

[dionysus]

120. i'm pretty sure he said he supported it, but did he promise it?

[freddie mertz]

122. He "campaigned" on it. Then, later he said a bill "MUST" have it.

Even ProSense agreed with me at the time that that was a promise, as I recall.

[dionysus]

124. then he shouldn't have said it.

[freddie mertz]

139. Right. He showed a certain contempt for his own electorate on that.

[Stinky The Clown]

94. Can we keep this pinned to the top of the front page of GD?

[freddie mertz]

104. I can kick it!

:patriot: :kick: :hi:

[superduperfarleft]

109. I've already bookmarked this one and the other "mostly untrue" thread

for some of the hilarious defenses of Obama lying.

[freddie mertz]

118. Much of it is "pure comedy gold."

:rofl: :popcorn: :spray: :applause:

[jgraz]

98. Now let's be fair. Did Obama ever *promise* to not totally lie to us?

[superduperfarleft]

106. Get it right. He only "barely lied" to us. n/t

[jgraz]

107. No, he barely told the truth. Which, of course, means

He *mostly* lied.

[superduperfarleft]

108. Maybe NJ is just a glass-half-full type of guy.

;)

[jgraz]

112. The problem is what his glass is half-full *of*

:evilgrin:

[superduperfarleft]

115. LOL. n/t

[freddie mertz]

121. My friend is the King of Comedy.

[jgraz]

123. I'm here all week. Try the veal.

:hi:

[freddie mertz]

119. Unless you are the guy who claims that "barely true" means "100 % honest!"

Which has been my favorite so far.

Pure comedy gold.

[shopgreen]

133. It is like --you can't just be a little pregnant.

[David Zephyr]

113. Nancy Pelosi said it best when she said he'd promised "a lot of things" in his campaign.

.

[freddie mertz]

116. Her frustration was palpable in the clip.

[dionysus]

125. do you remove responsibility from the house and senate whose job it was to get those in the bills?

i think it's disingenuous not to blame all parties involved.

you can parse words and pick nits all day, but last time i checked, congress wrote the bills. if you're going to use this as a cudgel against obama, you should use it against the entire dem caucus in the house and senate as well. several of them went on record also saying the bill MUST have a public option.

obama could have pushed a lot more for it, i won't claim otherwise, but at the end of the day, the house and senate failed to get it in the bills.

nancy's covering her own ass here, because she couldn't even get her own house dems to pass a public option.

i can't argue against the notion that obama could have been more forceful on things, but that doesn't abdicate reid and pelosi of their own responsibilities

[DisgustedInMN]

130. Excuse me?

What the heck are you talking about? The House bill DID contain a Public Option. It was the DINO "blue dog" BASTARDS in the Senate that KILLED the PO...

"could have pushed a lot more for it" my ass. Obama did jack squat to help We the People have OUR WILL done.

[dionysus]

134. the best pelosi got out of the house was a weak-ass public option and you know it.

and yeah, you're blaming one person instead of congress.

[freddie mertz]

136. A weak PO can be strengthened much more easily than NO PO can...

That is why some of us are fighting for it, even though we know it is "residual" at best.

[dionysus]

138. i can't disagree with you there. i'm afraid we need to replace all the blue dogs for that to happen.

[freddie mertz]

140. Well, if this bill goes through in the Senate form..

I am wiling to predict now that we will lose some Bluedog seats, as well as some progressive ones.

Alienate the unions AND the liberal base?

A prescription for disaster.

[DisgustedInMN]

142. What the hell are...

... you? Some kind of freakin' mind reader? Where do you get off telling me (or ANYONE else for that matter) what "I know" or "who I blame?" Pretty gawddamn full of yourself, aren't you?

[freddie mertz]

135. With the glaring exception of Stupak, House bill, while weak, of better than the terrible Senate bi

It has federal administration of the HC exchanges (not the state-run system that will fail, which is in the Senate plan), and no tax on labor health benefits.

That said, I agree totally that there is PLENTY of blame to go around.

Obama dropped the ball, and that is when the sharks in the House and especially in the Senate moved in for the kill.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

126. not the end of the road yet

it can still come

[treestar]

127. But he's not going to get it

[freddie mertz]

137. Obama does not WANT the PO, I am now convinced it never mattered to him.

It's clear now that he tossed out promises in the campaign and later that he never really thought out in advance, or else never had any intention of delivering on.

C-Span anyone?

[freddie mertz]

143. Kicking. Talk today about taxes, but let's not forget the public plan.

[Lord Helmet]

144. If Obama was a dictator he wouldn't have to deal with the obstructionists in his own party.

It's an unfair and simplistic argument to claim "You lied!"

[freddie mertz]

146. I guess you wish he was a dictator then. nt.

[Lord Helmet]

147. hell yes I do on a number of issues -- but that's not the way democracy works

[freddie mertz]

152. How charming, Lord Metal Head.

That might make you king of the squad.

[Lord Helmet]

154. lol -- name-calling doesn't make your "YOU LIE!!!!" argument any more cogent

[freddie mertz]

155. Well, at least I am not having waking dreams about dictators.

A small consolation in my desolate life.

[karynnj]

148. Reality matters too - there is no way to get the public option through the Senate

Years ago, I promised my then little girl that we would go to a children's show. The day that it was scheduled, there was a major ice storm and nearly everything - including this show - were cancelled. We spent the day with a very angry 3 year old saying - but you promised.

The only difference is that she grew up to understand that sometimes things said - even with the best intentions - can't be followed through on.

[freddie mertz]

153. Then just admit that.

Don't tell obvious fibs, it makes a person look childish and petulant.

[karynnj]

156. I have said that - and said it repeatedly

In addition, I said that I honestly thought that, no matter which Democrat won, the plan signed would be rather similar as it would be the best they could do and get 60 Senators. That would be the case if it were Clinton, Kerry, Dean, or even a faithful to his wife version of John Edwards.

[freddie mertz]

158. Then we actually agree. nt.

[GinaMaria]

151. What does Obama gain from denying this?

Some will argue that Obama technically didn't lie or technically didn't promise, but what does this get him if people remember him saying it and perceive him as a liar? Perception is king especially when it comes to Brand. This is damaging to Obama's brand. Arguing about technically being a correct statement without understanding how it appears or is perceived by voters seems a foolish stance to take. A belief is a difficult thing to overcome at the polls.

[freddie mertz]

157. He gained nothing of course. It hurt him. He needs better advisors.

You get Jack Cafferty and Jon stewart mocking the "C-Span" promises, O'Donnell dissecting this one, then add the mandates and the no excise tax tapes, and what the F?

It's like they are deliberately editing the attack ads in advance for the Repukes in 2012.

I don't get it.

[shopgreen]

160. Obama Demands: The Bill I Sign Must Include Public Option **

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/


Obama Demands: The Bill I Sign Must Include Public Option
By Brian Beutler - July 20, 2009, 10:16AM

While we're talking health care reform: In his weekly radio address on Saturday, President Obama did what he's refused to do all along--he said the public option isn't an option at all.

ny plan I sign must include an insurance exchange: a one-stop shopping marketplace where you can compare the benefits, cost and track records of a variety of plans - including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest - and choose what's best for your family.

That's a first. In the recent past, the White House has only demanded that health care reform expand and improve coverage while lowering costs. But Blue Dogs and conservative Senate Democrats have been raising noises about the public option, while citing concerns that the reform proposals on the table won't cut costs. And with the debate reaching its crescendo, Obama's letting them know they can't have it both ways. ......................:popcorn: