Maybe I'm Psychotic -- But I remain FURIOUS about the Democrats Sell Out on Healthcare (A Rant)

[Armstead]

This may be my last post on this matter. "Yay. Finally he's going to shut up."

Maybe not.... :evilgrin:

In either case, I continue to be both infuriated and depressed as this STUPID SELL OUT OF A BILL advances towards its inevitable passage. Every time I have "moved on" and begun to shrug my shoulders, some new bit of news about it reminds me of the massive mistake and injustice we are about to see perpetrated.

NO FUCKING PUBLIC OPTION. MANDATES TO BUY PRIVATE INSURANCE. NO REAL CONTROL OVER PRICES IN THE YEARS AHEAD.


NO....FUCKING....CHANGE!

Thanks to the Democrats, WE ARE STUCK WITH A LOUSY SYSTEM OF HEALTHCARE FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE. WE WILL REMAIN PRISONERS OF FUCKING GREEDY IMMORAL CORPORATIONS THAT ARE PROVIDING "COVERAGE" simply to make a profit.

Please don't tell me about the fucking "improvements" that will be made. They are just window dressing....Don't talk about "the perfect being the enemy of the good." I was prepared for something small, as an incremental step forward. BUT THIS IS A STEP BACKWARD because it enshrines private for-profit insurance as the sole basis of health coverage.

I GUARANTEE YOU THAT FIVE OR TEN YEARS FROM NOW -- PEOPLE WILL STILL BE BITCHING ABOUT HOW EXPENSIVE IT IS. AND PEOPLE WILL BE NEEDLESSLY SICK AND DYING BECAUSE OF IT. THE REST WILL BE GOING BROKE TO PAY THE EXTORTION.

Okay, Rant over. Just had to get this out of my system..I hope.

[jefferson_dem]

1. I hear you, Armstead.

And appreciate the passion.

Keep on fighting the good fight. :thumbsup:

[Armstead]

3. I hope I can jettison the passion.....or at least rechannel it into sex and chocolate chip cookies

:evilgrin:

[DrDan]

2. you are not alone in those thoughts

[peace frog]

126. Plenty of us are right where you're at

with no place to vent our rage and despair at our Dem leaders' betrayal except here on DU.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

5. But many more people will have health care

and will live because of it.

And when they see that there's nothing to fear from government oversight, they'll be ready to make another move.

That's the way this country does things. Slow and incremental. If we'd implemented Nixon's plan in the 70s, we'd be ready for single payer today.

If we do nothing, we'll just have the status quo for another 20 years and we still won't implement single payer then.

You live where you live.

[Little Star]

10. Yeah, that mandate is just wonderful! You gotta be kidding me.

[sandnsea]

Why do we have the mandate?

Oh yeah, Hillary Clinton, Krugman, Howard Dean, John Edwards, etc etc etc, said it was a good idea.

A mandate to buy a government plan you say.

Which will cost money too. Medicare doesn't cover everything, that's why there's Part B and supplementals on top of that.

I don't understand why people think that just because you stamp govt on something it means it will be cheap and good.

[Sebastian Doyle]

27. Don't even attach Howard Dean's name to this mandate bullshit.

He NEVER advocated a corporate mandate.

[sandnsea]

33. He just proposed subsidized insurance in 2004

and then supported Hillary's mandate which included subsidized insurance...

and then promptly changed his tune when his minions turned against Obama.

I know how Howard Dean operates. He's doing the same thing on health care that he did on the IWR.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

42. Still pushin' it.

:eyes:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

43. "I know how Howard Dean operates."

:rofl:

[Little Star]

36. They were talking about a mandate WITH a robust public option

Not like this shit bill. Think things out a bit.

[sandnsea]

38. Medicare has Part B premiums, people still get supplementals

Like I asked, why do people automatically assume a public option would be so cheap when Medicare clearly isn't and doesn't cover everything either.

Having the public option would not make this mandate any less of an economic burden on people.

ONLY the subsidies will do that.

[Little Star]

41. Seniors have been suffering under the burden of those

supplementals, nobody on this board gives a crap about that or the suffering. A robust (like I said) public option would most certainly have driven down the cost of health care, even without subsides. This bill was no friggin good from the start and only kept getting worse. When we have the presidency and two houses, they could have just expanded medicare for all without a bill. This whole bill was just an excuse for this administration & both Dem houses to claim credit for HCR, people do not seem to matter. They have failed us. People who did not want to hold the Dems feet to the fire from the get go, have enabled this mess and in turn have failed this president with their enabling.

[sandnsea]

50. Without subsidies??

How much do you think a Medicare policy would cost, straight up without the taxes.

[Little Star]

51. How about taxing the rich like Obama originally said?

[Little Star]

52. Better yet, how about getting the

insurance industry totally out of our health care. Why didn't this administration try for that?

[sandnsea]

53. How Much Would Medicare Cost

without the taxes.

Why do you think people would be able to pay a public option without assistance.

That's the question you were asked.

[Little Star]

59. With out what taxes?

Do you mean the new taxes that they want to foist on the middle class? Can you tell me what these new taxes will cost when all is said and done? Didn’t think so.

Even if I knew what the heck taxes you are specifically talking about, I couldn’t tell you how much Medicare would cost. I bet you couldn’t tell me how much it would cost either. In fact, no one can answer your question.

Actually, Medicare has always been payed for partially from payroll taxes with a match by the employer. Initially, Medicare was as a single-payer system until in the 1990s when government officials allowed the insurance industry to take part in Medicare. They need to get rid of those leeches on our healthcare. The government also could not keep their hands out of the trust fund that is Medicare. They need to keep their hands off the trust fund and pay back what they have stolen.

Now, I asked you some questions that you ignored. Let me repeat them to you. How about taxing the rich like Obama originally said? How about getting the insurance industry totally out of our health care. Why didn't this administration try for that?

[karynnj]

205. Because it was very obvious that there were not even 50 votes for that

Did you watch any of the Senate hearings - especially those in the Finance Committee. As the various public options were all discussed and then voted down, you could tell from the comments on those provisions that about half of the 13 Democrats would absolutely not consider that. (Soem names - Baucus, Conrad, Caper, Lincoln, Nelson(FL)) Now, of the others, it is not clear how many would have supported that - Kerry has said that he would support Medicare for all, but I have no comments that I could point to that Schumer, Cantwell, Wyden (his plan retained private companies, but would lead to the end of employer plans - you saw how the unions reacted to even taxing a part above $23,000), Rockefeller (who I think might support SP, but can't find a link), Menendez (another possibility -again no link), Bingaman (not likely), Stabanow (couldn't tell).

Now these are just 13 Senators - and this represents subjective interpretation of their comments on the committee - then googles to look for single payer support in the second group. My conclusion, even with Obama pushing it, which would bring out more of them - it simply could not win.

[paulk]

206. it should have at least been on the table

make the Senate show it's hand - let the voters know that they're all (Republicans and Democrats) whores for the insurance industry.

The reason it wasn't even part of the discussion is because the Dem leadership didn't support it and they wanted to protect thier caucus from even being on the record with this issue.

It's chickenshit politics.

[karynnj]

207. It is never clear what "on the table" meant

It was discussed - even in the Finance Committee as Senator Kerry said he did speak of it. I would assume it was mentioned in the House and in the HELP committee. There would have been a vote on Sanders' amendment except Sanders pulled it when it was clear that the Republicans would insist on the procedural votes and it would have further eaten up time.

Now, I think they should have had an advocate at one of the very early sessions when they were speaking to many experts and stakeholders. But, that really would have been done to point to and say -there was a hearing. The fact is that if you mean "single payer" to be Medicare for all or anything else that eliminates all private insurance, there would be too many already against it. It was not that they didn't know what it was. It was that there were far too many people they represent that would be furious because it would eliminate what they have. This was not going to change with a hearing.

But, if you mean was it ever included as a potential alternative in the actual work creating a plan in either the HELP or Finance committee - the answer is "no". the reason is that it was likely considered futile as there were too many "unpersuadables". The Senators know each other and they all had enough discussions that they had a fair idea of the set of options that were promising. They concentrated on trying to get soemthing that did good that could pass.

[paulk]

209. and all of this is an example of a dysfunctional government

or even perhaps a system that no longer is capable of dealing with the problems, we, as a nation, face.

That what is clearly the best approach, single payer, the approach that the overwhelming majority of other industrialized western nations have chosen, is not even represented in committee, is damning, afaic.

[Jackpine Radical]

120. That's a more complicated question than it appears to be.

If you're talking about Medicare only for the aged and disabled, it is rather expensive per person covered because the populations served have high levels of medical need. If the coverage were broadened to include everyone, it would be a lot cheaper (regardless of who is paying, the individual out of earnings or the government out of taxes). The best guess is that it would run about $8,000 per family as opposed to $12,000 average cost of private insurance per family now.

[Hello_Kitty]

78. I'm so glad a bunch of millionaires have weighed in on that. eom

[Armstead]

111. The BIG difference -- Look into Massachusetts

Massachusetts fucked up on healthcare reform too by imposing mandates without controlling costs and prices. The state is currently trying to fix that, because it is generally acknowledged that it was a half-done job.

BUT MASSCHUSETTS HAS SOMETHING THIS IDIOTIC NATIONAL PLAN DOESN'T -- A PUBLIC OPTION.

The state has (and had before reform) at least the basics of a public insurance plan available to people who qualify. If you earn in the neighborhood of $20,000 a year and are single, for example, you can buy into this plan for about $100 a month or less -- COMPARED TO AT LEAST $500 a month for the least expensive private insurance plan.

It does not help everyone but AT LEAST Massachusetts has the basic infrastructure to offer an alternative. THIS NATIONAL PLAN DOES NOT, EXCEPT FOR THOSE NEBULPOUS SUBSIDIES WHICH WILL ULTIMATELY NOT BE ENOUGH TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

TEAM OBAMA AND THE VICHY DEMOCRATS HAVE TAKEN THE WORSE ASPECTS OF MASSACHUSETTS ROMNEYCARE, WITHOUT THE POSITIVE ASPECTS OF IT.

That's just one of the problems with the type of mandates this travesty of a bill is imposing.

[Betty]

138. We're getting screwed in Mass, believe me

I posted this elsewhere, but my insurance just went up 25% in ONE year. No cost controls, and as for the subsidy you mention, yes, that's great, but if you make any more than that , you are SOL and I can tell you that it is a hardship for me to pay for this insurance.. and I got the cheapest plan available. (not that it's cheap by any means) And there's no recourse. I called my state senator's office and they said they were "working" on getting the costs down. What is being proposed nationally is a giveaway to the insurance companies, that's what it is doing here. There should be some provision that it can be no more than a certain REASONABLE percentage of a person's income, but that will never happen.

[bertman]

151. Betty, I'm NOT in Massachusetts and mine went up 18% in '09.

[Armstead]

12. I hope I'm being needlessly pesimistic

But I fear this is ultimately going to be a step backward. Instead of "removing the fear of government oversight" it will piss people off with the mandate, and offers not even a small taste of the possibilities for public insurance as an algternative.

And frankly, I don't believe it is going to make real bona-fide coverage significantly more available.

Maybe I'll be proven wrong. I hope so.

[sandnsea]

15. The exchange will have govt oversight

I don't understand why people underestimate that. The mandate means every person in this country has an interest. If the plans cost too much and suck, you're right, there will be outrage. And they'll have to change the plan until people can afford it and it works for them. Right now there are just too many fingers in the pie, wild-eyed conjecture, fundraising agendas, campaign politics, and everything else going on. This won't get done right until all of that is out of the picture and the nuts and bolts start getting worked out through HHS, etc. Just get the damn thing passed so the people can make a step forward and start understanding what having health care is even like, what this will and won't do, and make changes from there.

[JoeyT]

20. Government oversight only works

as long as the government cares to oversee and enforce.
Look at how well EPA oversight worked during the Bush years.

What concerns me most is what may happen the next time the Republicans come to power and any oversight we manage ceases to exist.
It's not so much wild eyed conjecture as knowing what they're like and what they think of the poor/middle class.

[sandnsea]

32. I completely agree with that, they can shitcan a public option too

I think people forget that little detail.

[TheKentuckian]

34. What about the vast majority of people restricted from and outside the exchange?

The oversight is worthless as it is the same as we have now which all but universally has failed. All the vast majority of voters will notice is they have to do "wellness" visits to determine how much they can be gouged for, if the plan they are offered at work blows goats and is costly that they have a gun to their head to buy it, and that ER's are still overflowing, big insurance keeps piling up the money, people they know or hear of are still getting hosed by their companies, that premiums still go up every year, benefits get stingier, and they are expected to cough up more and more out of pocket.

Hopefully, big insurance doesn't screw us and the out of pocket max holds and we get some positive stories about people not getting wiped out. The bill's best quality seems to be that if you are well off it will severely limit your liability to a very small percentage of income, well except me and most are broke so we get a high as bill every month for something we can't afford to use unless it is a dire emergency.

Passing the thing doesn't take a step forward not does it put the best impression of government involvement when all most will see is the downside. This turkey probably wrecks liberal proposals for multiple generations and we don't even want it.

You are running on faith here. You know the thing is seriously flawed almost to the point of making a bad situation worse and at best spreads the pain rather than fixing its sources. Why is it so far from people's minds that if we blow a trillion dollars and produce something most people hate then we won't get a chance to fix it, even with a somewhat more forgiving than usual to Democrats public because there will be no money for many years.

I don't see how people fail to recognize the scale, personal impact, political promotion, and how much of the economy is tied up in this sector and that while perfection can never be expected, significant compromise is required, and with full knowledge that anything new will have to be sold that an actual bad bill is not likely to be tolerated. If most people end up with even the mis impression they were better off before then we have fucked ourselves well beyond a couple of cycles while making low information types even more anti-liberal because liberal health care is how they will see it. It is hard to make a case why Republicans watered down and ruined a bill that only Democrats voted for.

I think only a fool would take a chance on rolling this piece of crap out. The House bill was weak but it was something to grow on and add to but this mess people are in love with is a structurally nightmare of epic proportions and based in no small part on failed trickle down concepts and on top of our current fiasco.

You are making an argument based on moving in the right direction but just not fast or dramatic enough (which is true on both accounts considering the severity of the issue) but refuse to even acknowledge the bill is pretty much destined to fail at even being a successful attempt at the most tepid market based reform plausible because it has too many design and enforcement issues to even meet the most moderate standard.

The black and white what we got vs. NHS/single payer/public trust/public competitor/heavily regulated paradigm is not an honest representation of a significant amount of the debate especially with a lot of the sharper knives in the House drawer but bill fanatics underhandedly point those concerns as juvenile and yell there are no votes for single payer which has little to nothing to do with taxes, affordability, pool size, and taking loopholes out that allow for regulatory enforcement and oversight.

There are minimum protections required or 31 million more customers makes things worse for more people and fails to really give those millions the help they need to get care.

[sandnsea]

40. Actually I'm running on personal experience

I have subsidized insurance. Right now. Today. I've had it for about 3 years. I know what it "can" be, if we stop fighting against it and make sure the subsidies are enough and the deductibles and co-pays aren't too high.

But nobody will focus on the reality in front of us. Which is the real reason we end up screwed.

[flyarm]

100. don't count on your subsidized insurance when this bill is enacted..

what you will get is a mandated insurance policy that won't cover jack shit! Your out of pocket mandated insurance will cost you dearly! And if you don't pay it..you will be fined..and even after paying the fine..you will have no care whatsoever..and still be forced to pay for a mandated policy..that won't cover jack shit!

What you are trading for, from what you have now..will make what you have now look like a cadillac plan!

You have sold yourself out supporting this shit bill!

Down the road..don't dare say we didn't tell you so!

[salguine]

181. Yeah, "government oversight". When was the last time the government oversaw ANYTHING properly?

[ChiciB1]

164. Don't EVER Use The Word Hope Anymore Because To Me There's

so little to HOPE for, but I most certainly think this HCR is a piece of CRAP!! Wonder what will happen if Coakley looses?? What will "our" so called Democrats say then?

Either way, I think the Repukes have been laughing all along because as obstructionists and the fact that so few people support THIS HCR, they don't seem to be on the losing end either way! They have a candidate running in MA... Teddy's seat and Scott Brown sounds like one of the whack job Tea Party people! And he may very well win!!!

So Democrats in Congress REALLY don't have anyone to blame but themselves, regardless if Coakley ran a "bad" campaign or not! I won't stop talking about this bill, and I most certainly feel that Rahm Emanuel has done a seriously POOR job for Democrats!! The DLC seems to ignore those of us who are or where "true Democrats" or as they say "the base" and will probably NEVER admit what they've done!! When a Democrat loses they are ALWAYS going to use the excuse that the candidate ran a BAD CAMPAIGN!

There are so many times I wish I wasn't addicted to this place AND politics in general because it's not only really disappointing, it's stressful because I keep seeing the WH and so so many Democratic Congress Critters just throwing away the best chance they've had in too many years!

They will be blamed and they will pay the price for it! That's what I'm seeing right now, and the ONLY chance they have is to start working for "we the people" and standing up for us! They are just lining their pockets and it's disgusting!! Plus they are losing the Indy's too!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

190. "Bad campaign" (which may be true) or "too liberal" (which rarely is)

That's the DLC's excuse for every Dem loss.

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. No, many more people will have health INSURANCE -

it is not the same thing.

If you can't afford the co-pays, if just showing up at the office costs more than you can afford, having insurance does no good at all. And I guarantee, the out-of-pocket costs WILL skyrocket, because there are no controls on them, even as those several million more are required to pay for insurance. Co-pays and deductibles will rise BECAUSE those are decided by the insurance industry and there are no limitations on them.

It will do NOTHING to relieve the pressure on emergency rooms. People will STILL go bankrupt because of illness. And there will STILL be 20 million left completely in the cold.

And the fixes to this absurd bill that we need - expansion of Medicare, public option as a counter to industry control - won't even be considered for 10 years because of the ridiculously slow implementation of this bill. People won't know how bad it really is for another five years, and even then it will be a 'he said, she said' argument about its effectiveness.

And even better - when to starts to become clear HOW bad it is, the repubs will remind everyone how they opposed it, and use that as a campaign point in 2016, if not in 2012. Never mind that the bill is bad because the democrats gave away the house to the repubs in shaping the bill - this abomination will be saddled on Democrats.

[Laelth]

17. +1 (for the truth).

If mandates are such a good idea, we should end homelessness by ordering everyone who's homeless to buy a house.

The individual mandate is patently insane.

:dem:

-Laelth

[Sebastian Doyle]

49. That quote sounds familiar.

Too bad the guy who said it first, forgot all about it. :evilfrown:

[sandnsea]

54. And who opposed that?

The very same people who insisted we have a mandate, are attacking it now.

And it doesn't matter whether people are forced to pay taxes for a public option or pay a premium for private - money is money and if they can't afford, it they can't afford it.

The important part of this bill has always been the amount of the subsidy and expansion of Medicaid. Too bad so many have been led down all this pointless trails.

[WinkyDink]

65. Not quite. Taxation could have been progressive, not regressive.

[riverdale]

83. subsidy will be the first thing to go

What is going to happen to health insurance subsidies for poor people five years from now, when a Republican is the President and there is a budget crisis?

[Jakes Progress]

117. Now, now. Let's not bother these people

with how things really work. They like the pretty words and picturesque images that show us actually being better off because we don't have the health care available to every citizen of every other industrialized country. Don't keep pointing out that they are the tools of the corporate interests. They don't like it.

[bertman]

152. RaleightNCDUer nailed it. The public's memory is worse than an Alzheimer's patient's on pot.

[WinkyDink]

64. "Coverage". Health-care COVERAGE. Complete with deductibles and co-pays.

[Wardoc]

79. No, many more people will have mandated insurance. Btw, I always hear this promise regarding...

incremental change but strangely no specifics. And if you can be so sure it will be improved upon, I'd like to know when? And in what way? Will the mandates be stripped out? Will that be done in mid June of 2011?

Or rather it is a nebulous promise with no specifics to make us accept the untenable backslide of this bill that is far worse than nothing and is now only being pushed to save face for those in power.

[eridani]

91. No they will not. All they will have is insurance n/t

[Greyhound]

130. No, they'll have an insurance card, not health care.

Millions will not even get that, and millions more will not be able to use their "insurance" because they can't come up with the extra fees.

Pretending that this POS is anything other than the greatest robbery in history (will dwarf the banksters gifts over time) is simple minded. Really look at what you are advocating.

[icee]

134. That hopefully will help pay for their assisted suicide because

they can't pay for either the mandate if they don't take healthcare or the drug costs and copays if they do get healthcare. Many sit around the table these days discussing which of the couple can live off the insurance on the other because of Obamacare. I have drawn a list up of the things I have to teach my wife. Like how to never vote again.

[salguine]

180. This pile-of-shit bill will make incremental change less likely than ever, because

all it will do is further entrench the stranglehold the insurance cartels have over the process. If you think they're powerful now, what happens when they get hundreds of billions of dollars MORE money mandated to them with which to flood Washington in the years to come? No, there will be no incremental change toward something better. This bill needs to be driven out to the desert and forced to dig its own grave at gunpoint, forced to kneel, shot in the back of the head and have a stake driven through its fucking heart.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

191. It will also DISCREDIT the idea of health care reform for a generation or more

When anyone says "health care reform," the public will think of this overly complex bit of corporate welfare.

[DebbieCDC]

6. There are others here who share your feelings Armstead

Me, for instance.

Thank you for posting.

[Captain Hilts]

7. The anti-trust exemption for the Health insurance industry survives...nt

[Sebastian Doyle]

8. You are not psychotic by any means

The psychotic ones are those who believe that rewarding corporate criminals for their grand larceny by forcing millions to pay their continued deception somehow equals "reform".

When every other goddamn "civilized" nation on this planet has better health care than us - even the ones with far more poverty - there is no excuse left not to solve the problem. And this is NOT remotely a solution. :grr:

[ProgressOnTheMove]

9. OK that's fair and understandable, but the best way forward is to channel that anger..

into either working for 3rd party candidates or more progressive Democrats. Anything else leads to mild depression, because the anger goes somewhere or a person gets mad at others so it's wasted energy. Any anger should always get pushed into moving the agenda forward even if on a small level or it works against us. When anyone feels angry they must always think to themselves am I going to make this anger work for me or against me??

[Armstead]

14. Luckily I'm able to seperate political anger from personal anger

I feel like I do channel my energies into the small things I can do towards positive change.

Otherwise, over the years I've learned the knack of keeping it seperate from my own life. The only real impact of this kind of anger is occasional impassioned arguments with friends about these kind of issues.

[ProgressOnTheMove]

179. It's just anger is a powerful emotion, it can get a lot done if targeted in constructive ways.

[bvar22]

11. Less than 35% of ALL Americans...

...support Mandates w/o a Public Option.

How is the Democratic Party going to SELL this to America when the bill start coming in? :shrug:

[LibDemAlways]

123. They won't be able to sell this to America. It seems to me

the Dems have a death wish and this is the method of suicide they've chosen. It's inexplicable.

[Laelth]

16. Me too. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[Dinger]

18. K & R (nt)

[Nite Owl]

19. I am too

it seems that they way they cut costs was to pass it onto us instead of the healthcare complex. They didn't want to listen to us and now we will all pay dearly. So many more people will be spending more and getting less and so many more will die or go bankrupt because they wouldn't care enough for us instead of corporations. Forty years I've been a dem and worked in every election for our candidates and this is what they have come to? I'm not sure I can be a part of this much longer.

[ProSense]

21. It's good to get it out of your system

because health care reform is going to have a huge positive impact on this country.

"BUT THIS IS A STEP BACKWARD"

Oh brother.

:rofl:

[Armstead]

22. Let's check back in a few years and see if you're still laughing

[ProSense]

23. "BUT THIS IS A STEP BACKWARD"

At that ridiculous statement, I will be.

[Armstead]

26. By taking the real solutions off the table and imposing mandates....

it IS a giant step backwards.

What people like you don't seem to understand -- or care about -- is that many who want reform compromised massively at the beginning, thinking there would be a little something to start the road to reform.

But the Democrats not only took the real solutions off the table, they have put in a phony set of insurance-company friendly "reforms" that will prevent any further efforts to make positive changes for years to come.

I'd call that a step backwards. You may think it ridiculous, but I believe we'll look back at this in the same light as other recent Democratic "steps forward" like NAFTA, broadcasting deregulation and repeal of banking regulations.

[ProSense]

29. "I'd call that a step backwards." Utterly ridiculous. n/t

[paulk]

73. at least you could do Armstead the favor

of actually making an argument in defense of your "ridiculous" charge.

Instead of just repeating yourself.

[Armstead]

101. They do it with ad hominum insults or with "cut and paste" from pundit apologists and party hacks

Seldom do they ever engage on the actual underpinnings of what is being done.

I'm open to persuasion. But ignoring the basic philosophical and practical flaws in this and focusing on the "our team has to have a win" doesn't negate the basic fundamental flaw in a bill that ultimately is designed to further entrench a bad system.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

192. Of course you think it's ridiculous

You always think of anything that Obama isn't currently advocating as "ridiculous."

That's what you do.

[treestar]

55. You're setting yourself up

Since you'll have to be right, you'll end up trying to see only negative and might have to become a Republican.

[Armstead]

103. That's bullshit and you know it -- I care more about healthcare than being "right"

I would be thrilled if five years from now, this bill and follow up legislation has reigned in the insurance companies, and created an environment where everyone has access to affordable healthcare -- however it is accomplished.

But I'm afraid we will look back at this as one of those things like financial and broadcast deregulation, NAFTA and the whole "free trade" scam and even moderates will be saying "what the hell were we thinking when we supported THAT?"

[flyarm]

110. DELETE WRONG PLACEMENT

[treestar]

140. Nobody can predict the future absolutely

So even if one were not sure, it could turn out all right. Never admitting that possibility doesn't make sense and sets you up just to see the negatives. Of course it will have problems.

And because you perceived NAFTA to have failed doesn't mean everything else has to, even if you were "right" about that.

[flyarm]

112. that is bullshit!..MANY OF US HAVE WORKED OUR ENTIRE LIVES IN THE DEM PARTY

for real health care reform..this is no health "CARE" REFORM..this bill is a disgrace and is an insult to those of us who have worked so hard for "REAL" Health Care for all..THIS BILL IS NOT THAT..NOT EVEN FUCKING CLOSE!

[treestar]

141. CALM DOWN !!!!!!!!!!!!!! 111111111111111111

You don't live in Canada. You can't turn this country into a Western European county overnight! Get what you can instead of foot stomping which will get you nowhere!

Just be realistic and help with the needed incremental changes.

[flyarm]

147. I have lived in Canada..and i know damn well this bill is nothing but shit!

stop trying to sell shit to people telling them it is caviar!

[defendandprotect]

159. I love the pretense that we're reinventing the wheel here while every other nation has

real medical care for their citizens --

We don't know how to do it?

Great -- ask for help from other nations!

[flyarm]

166. exactly..and i have many many Canadian friends and do not know of one who would give up their

national health care ..for ours..not one!

[flyarm]

178. No I won't calm down , people will die because of this bill!

No I won't calm down, I have spent far too much of my life fighting for those who don't have Health "care" and this bill will give them nothing but shit! And by the time many find that out they will have already been sold out and it will be too late! Maybe years of your life aren't valuable..but mine are and were and I have spent much of my life fighting for health "care " for Americans , and they will not get that in this bill!
No I won't calm down, because I have donated Big bucks to the dem party to only now see it was for naught..it was all a scam!

[defendandprotect]

162. This isn't "reform" . . . it's "deform" intended to enrich insurance/pharma . . .

Rather, had Bush introduced anything like this we'd be ROFL --

[havocmom]

24. I feel yer pain. Working on a rant of my own, but it goes WAY beyond rage at bogus HCR

I am working up to a stiletto into the heart of the beast. When I get it ready, I shall invite you in particular to come out and play. Your analysis has great value to many of us.

[Blue Meany]

25. This situation reminds me of a story one of my college professors

used to tell about his days working on rural development projects in South America. He was, at first, shocked and upset to see food shipped as foreign aid by US being sold in the local markets. One day he talked to a local official about this, and the guy told him that it was true that the Army took most of the aid and sold it for their own benifit. But 5% or 10% of the aid got through to the people who needed it. If you cut of the aid, he said, those people with starve and as no there is other way to get it to them except by having the Army distribute it.

It seems like that's what it's come to in US politics. If you want to do something for working people, say, raise the minimum wage, you have to package it with a tax cut for the rich. If you want to expand health care availability, you have to buy off the insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, and for-profit hospitals (or should I say be bought by these industries?). And, most of the benifit goes to those special interests, but a small percenage trickles through to those who need it.

[defendandprotect]

160. So you want to "compromise" with corruption and evil . . . ????

[salguine]

182. Why does everything have to be packaged with tax cuts for the rich? Why not tell

the rich that IF they step out of the way, we won't drag them into the street and cut their fucking heads off?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

193. Yes, why do the super-rich and the corporations get to decide which laws they're

willing to obey?

What if we went into prisons and asked the convicted murderers to help write the laws concerning murder?

"I think we should get off with a fine and probation if the victim was killed instantly and didn't suffer."

"Great idea!"

[mkultra]

28. rec for your last post

and thank the maker.

[Fire1]

30. Maybe?

:rofl: :rofl:

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

31. You are not alone. n/t

[Fire1]

172. Damn near. eom

[TheKentuckian]

35. K&R. You're being pretty rational, imo. (nt)

[Blue Owl]

37. The journey of 1,000 miles

Begins with a single step. But will it ever end with a single payer option?

With 999.99 miles to go, it's pretty hard to feel optimistic...

[Milo_Bloom]

48. How do you see this as a step?

A true step towards single payer begins from the concept that health care is a fundamental right and part of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

This bill establishes heath INSURANCE as a responsibility and continues to allow the CARE to be dictated by private corporations.

I don't see the step forward.. only a step backwards.

[Armstead]

105. Bingo -- That's the whole point

[freddie mertz]

39. I totally share your frustration. Obama and the Dems really squandered a rare opportunity.

They COULD have begin the fight with proposals for genuine, sweeping reform.

Instead, they gave most of it away at the start, then announced their willingness to give away what little was left in hopes of getting a "Deal" with a couple of pukes.

When the history is written, there will be precious glory to share among the architects of this POS.

[rockymountaindem]

44. Look on the bright side!

In a decade, when people are still dying due to inadequate access to care, and our costs are still going through the roof and way ahead of every other industrialized country etc., all the people who supported this bill will be standing around, scratching their heads wondering how it all went wrong. You and I, on the other hand, will know exactly what went wrong.

Then, when it comes time to fix the new status quo (let's call it the 2020 SQ), those people will have no credibility and they'll just be quiet and let those of us who didn't get our way this time have a crack at it. So this go-round is just the prelude to the final implosion of the Third Way method of health care reform, paving the way to the ultimate triumph of real reform to be carried out by the next generation of leadership some ways down the road. We've lost the battle, but will win the war!

The future's so bright I gotta wear shades :sarcasm:

Seriously though, a decade from now it'll be all the more intolerable to hear from the usual suspects how just a few more tweaks to our existing private insurance system will fix everything. Because these tweaks will only drag more people into a system that's already failing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

194. No, they're so shameless that even if they have no credibility

they'll still be shooting off their mouths about the glories of the private sector, just like the editorial writers who tell us that the way out of the recession is more deregulation and bigger tax cuts.

[David Zephyr]

45. What worse than anger, Armstead? Apathy.

After anger comes resignation that we've been sold out across the board, not just on healthcare.

And resignation, means sitting on one's hands.

Activists within the Democratic Party are truly disillusioned. Look at MoveOn.Org or read the articles now in The Nation and oops, there it is.

Your anger mirrors mine. I'm not quite at the resignation point, but tell me, what makes you think things will change?

Edited for K&R.

[glitch]

62. FWIW I think forceful and cheerful denial followed by maniacal laughter is worse. nt

[Armstead]

107. I'm 57 and seen so many reruns of this movie -- But I still keep foolishly hoping

This happens overt and over and over -- Only the issues and some of the names change.

The Democratic Party either fails or refuses to actually represent the liberal position on an issue, and plays this con game in which they advance corporate interests over those of the public while claiming they are making "incremental progress."

Then, their actions help to actually make the situation WORSE (look and banking and Wall St.) and they claim to represent reform -- and then they repeat the same bullshit over again.

This time I thought, with the collapse of the GOP and the discrediting of the Right Wing Theology -- that maybe things would be different....But it turns out not so much. Obama is Clinton.

But there is still a part of me that refuses to completely give in to cyn icism and apathy. But as I get older, the less inclined I am to give these bastards the benefit of the doubt anymore.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bread_and_roses]

47. I'm with you. And we'll be beggared besides by all the tax $$ flowing to Vampire Insurance and NOT

to the schools, green energy, services that are needed. In fact, in order to keep the Insurance Vampires and Big Pharma in profits, we'll be cutting services elsewhere. So it's going to come out of our hides - kind of like whipping someone bloody with the right hand while holding out a tube of antibiotic ointment in the other. What a farce.
K& R here.

[Faryn Balyncd]

56. You are NOT psychotic. You are clear-sighted. Mandatory corporate insurance is a HUGE step backwards

The problem is NOT that the bill needs improvements..... The problem is that it cements permanently in place the paradigm of mandatory corporate insurance only. It puts the power of government behind a corrupt, unaffordable, broken system.

It starts us down the WRONG ROAD.

The only thing it moves toward is the ultimate goal of Zeke Emanuel: gradual privatization of Medicare itself by requiring that new retirees continue with their corporate insurance after reaching 65. That goal, which Rahm has earlier called a "game-changer" that the country was not quite politically ready for, will now much easier, with mandatory corporate insurance the law of the land.

Thanks for the great post, Armstead.




:hi:




K and R.





:kick:

[WinkyDink]

66. That Obama, a brilliant man, could use the "auto insurance" NON-analogy is very troubling to me.

[hulka38]

57. With the legislative power so heavily on the Dem's side

getting real HCR should have been relatively easy. This health care issue, among others, has shown me that we the people have very little power. I can no longer deny it. To go from hopeful last year to this isn't easy. If I do walk away completely I won't be walking away from much.

[salguine]

183. Which tells you that they were never in this for you. It's all a big fucking joke.

[WT Fuheck]

58. But, but, but, we can't let the piss-poor be the enemy of the truly awful.

[LWolf]

60. Of course it's psychotic to notice when the team fails utterly.

Otherwise there wouldn't be enough fans to fill the stadium campaign after campaign.

:shrug:

[HughMoran]

61. I vote for what's behind door number one

:evilgrin:

[WinkyDink]

63. I personally like how the unions (I'm a member) said, "Exempt our contracts, or we sit home."

Because the wealthy aren't going to pound the pavements for the Democrats.

And no, I don't think the meeting took any longer than that.

[bardgal]

67. The Healthcare Reform bill isn't DONE YET...

My day job is working in an INSURANCE AGENCY. The Health Insurance companies are not only the most evil things in the universe, they're more powerful than your brain can comprehend. Single Payer is what will work, but we cannot start at the finish line with this kind of opponent, nor can we play fair, open, or up front - why? Because they're not, nor will they ever. A lot of the teabaggers are on their payroll.

Even though the "Public Option" plan was never fully formed, the Right demonized it to the point many on the left fell for their poison and shot it down. What IS still in the Senate version is an almost-single-payer-like entity of a non-profit company running a care plan (with government oversight) which was, btw, how most health insurance worked before Reagan & the GOP deregulated everything back in the '80s. THANKFULLY the Right doesn't seem to understand how this will work, so they aren't talking about it and haven't jumped on it - yet. The Insurance companies are SCARED OUT OF THEIR MINDS - so much so that not only are they raising everyone's rates and discontinuing very successful plans (that they actually have to pay out claims for), but we got a letter this week stating that Small Group Health (2-50 employees), will get rate increases more than once a year at renewal. You are an employer who thinks you have an agreement/contract with an an insurance company for your company and your rates are locked in for a year? NOPE. Not any more. Apparently there's no law in California against this kind of thing. They must give you insurance for small group - it's guaranteed issue, that is the law, and they can only make your RAF (Risk Adjustment Factor) as high as 1.10% - but so what? They will be able to raise your rates every month if they want, and will Sacramento stop them? Not bloody likely. Sound familiar? Remind you of anything? Oh....let's say like.... credit card companies?

The Health Reform Bill IS NOT FINISHED YET. And until it is, I'm going to wait and see what happens. Do I want a "Public Option"? Actually I want Single Payer - and everyone is covered - and I mean EVERYFRAKKINONE. Every person who is breathing in these 50 states - tourists, illegals, EVERYONE. Why? Because I'm not magically not going to catch their plague if I deny them access to a doctor. Giving EVERYONE medical access makes EVERYONE healthier, and helps stop the spread of disease. If anyone thinks a massive pandemic can't happen here, they're beyond ignorant.

The saddest thing is that the Right has manipulated this issue and lied about it so much that many on the left have fell for so much of it that we're actually HELPING them. Why try to defeat something that doesn't even exist yet? And how do you know that Obama wouldn't veto a gift to the insurance companies?

Getting 30 million people coverage that don't have it now is, I think, better than what they have now. SOMETHING is better than nothing. Is it what I want? No, but I'm not willing to say no to those 30 million without because it's not my perfect health care ideal.

ANYTHING we can do to get a foot in the door to break up the monopolistic stranglehold the insurance industry has on the nutsack of this country is going to be a MAJOR accomplishment. To campaign to defeat something that doesn't exist yet is aiding and abetting the GOP at this point.

Healthcare is only ONE THING that is wrong with this country and is destroying us - the banks, the environment, immigration, corporate tax dodging, outsourcing US jobs overseas, OUR HORRID EDUCATION SYSTEM (because collectively we seem to be dumber than a bunch of rocks and it's only getting worse - let's face it, if Michelle Bachmann can actually get elected there's some can't fix stupid people out there), and the list goes on.

[gratefultobelib]

121. Excellent post!

[Armstead]

202. It is done -- All that is left is maybe some minor tweaks

The insurers may have been scared because of the uncertainty -- but I am sure they ar brething huge sighs of relief now that they know what to expect. This gives them plenty of room to game the system. They just have to figure out new ways to get around what feeble requirements they will have to adhere to.

I hope you are correct that some new non-profit entity will emerge out of that that actually provides affordable coverage for everyone who wants it...But frankly I'm not holding my breath.

What I am so angry about is that very few people in the general public support the behavior and role of private health insurers. And yet, the Demloc rats were afraid to take any real steps to harness that, and even offer the start of a real public insurance option.

[shadesofgray]

68. K&R

[bardgal]

71. Everyone here has actually READ both versions of the bill?

And have a Magic 8 Ball™ that tells you what the final bill is going to say? Or are you all listening to what the media (on the insurance payroll) is saying? Just curious.

All this angst over what, hearsay? Because if there IS a final version of the bill that has been merged and agreed on by both branches of congress and is sitting on Obama's desk waiting to be signed, I'd like a link please so I can READ IT.

[Honeycombe8]

72. No one "reads" bills. They're too long and written in legalese. You know that.

But the OP is right. The bill is almost concluded. The changes that are needed are so significant that they would amount to a different bill entirely, and require starting over from scratch.

It's very safe to assume that there will be no cost controls on insurance premiums, since are none now, and the ins. cos. have paid plenty to have it that way (and Washington was happy to oblige, apparently).

Paying someone's subsidy isn't cost control. If I pay your overpriced utility bill next month, that does nothing to lower the cost of the bill in the future months. If anything, it entrenches the overbilling, and encourages not watching costs by all concerned, incl. the recipient of the utility bill.

It is not "reform" without cost controls. It merely entrenches the same system with spiraling costs.

[woo me with science]

74. Thank you.

Cost control.

Cost control.

Cost control.

It was supposed to be the reason for the overhaul in the first place. This legislation is garbage.

[defendandprotect]

158. No PUBLIC OPTION means no control on costs... PO was a "compromise" fall back...

and now that's gone!!

[shadesofgray]

177. Wow, that interrogation for a simple "K&R"?

But to answer your question why the fuck should I read the bill? I can read the news, describing all the various ways Pelosi and Reid have bent over and opened wide in the name of "compromise," AKA screwing the middle class, at Obama's behest.

[dkf]

69. You and me both.

Every time I've calmed down something pisses me off. Now we might lose Teddy Kennedy's seat. Are you kidding me? We worked our asses off for these jokers to pass one of the worst pos bills I've ever seen. This ranks with the tax relief for millionaires bill bush passed on my list of corrupt bills.

[slipslidingaway]

70. knr - and Medicare will not be able to negotiate drug prices. :( n/t

[defendandprotect]

176. Which is criminal in itself . . .. Obama, Reid ... Pharma.... should all be liable . . .!!!

Could we bring a class lawsuit by senior citizens -- and at least break their

lock on Medicare?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

75. I agree with every word you said

After much searching (since there was no executive summary of either bill for a long time, and it's still hard to find information), I've figured that this bill will leave me the same or worse.

Besides, the much-touted subsidies for low-income individuals will require a whole new bureaucracy. Will the subsidies be tax credits (useless to low-income people), cash grants (who will administer them?), or grants to the insurance companies (pure corporate welfare)?

[Armstead]

204. Exactly... Those "subsidies" will be a whole new briar patch

[CTLawGuy]

76. what part of

A PUBLIC OPTION WILL NOT PASS THE SENATE do you not understand? Because of the REPUBLICANS and irritating Blue dog "dems", we need 60 votes to pass the bill, NOT because of the President. If the president had started with Single payer, I would bet ANYONE that we would be in the EXACT SAME position we are in today.

Instead of getting mad at the fucking Rs and the blue dogs, you people get pissed at the people who are trying to do something to help.

Russ Feingold voted for the senate bill, as did Byron Dorgan, and Al Franken, and Barbara Boxer, and Tom Harkin, and a BUNCH of other progressive senators.

even Bernie Sanders voted for the senate bill.

Ask yourselves why they did that?
Are they owned by teh korporashunz as well? Have they sold out?
Any of them could have killed this "bad" bill, but they didn't. ANY one of them has the exact same power as Joe Lieberman or Ben Nelson to torpedo this bill.

Maybe they know something you don't....

You wanna fix health care? Get people out in MA on Tuesday for Martha Coakley, and then get out in Nov for PRO-Public option Democrats to replace obstructionist Rs and Dems.

Whining like a three year old child and putting republicans back in power will ensure that nothing will change, ever.

[hulka38]

80. Get 'nads and use reconciliation if you have to but get it done. If you need a play book

just look at what the Republicans did on a regular basis when they had a fraction of the power. There was absolutely no fight in this dog. At least show how badly you want it.

[CTLawGuy]

93. you can't pass an entire health care bill in reconcilliation

it's only available for budget matters.

[hulka38]

95. You're correct. There are numerous ways open to the leadership of the majority

using reconciliation to get a PO had they had the will to do it.

[bardgal]

81. This!!! ThisThisThisThisThisThis x infinity

THIS POST ABOVE YES! RIGHT ON.

[CTLawGuy]

94. Thanks!

NT

[Armstead]

99. If I were in the Senate, I would have voted for the billin the end too

But it is disgusting that that the Senators who really wanted reform had to hold their nose and vote for what they admit is a bad bill -- while assholes like Nelson, Lieberman and Baucus got all they wanted.

Something is very wrong.

This was a collective failure by everyone involved, including us little schmucks out in the hinterlands. We should not have trusted Obama and the rest of them -- Instead we should have taken a leaf from the teabaggers and pushed harder from the beginning.

But it's also the fault of you so-called pragmatic realists, who keep blindly making excuses and enabling the worst aspects of the Democratic Party and acting like enforcers against anyone who deviated from the official party line.

[CTLawGuy]

142. no excuses

this is reality.

It is because we have 60 that we are EVEN CONSIDERING a health care bill at all. If we had 59, there would be no health care bill. NONE.

Throw Lieberman and Nelson out of office and replace them with pro-PO dems, totally agree, kick out the obstructionist Rs. The Rs and their enablers need to be punished by the American people for not governing in good faith. That's the bottom line.

They are doing this to get Obama to fail, to get people like you disillusioned and upset. That's their very purpose. You stay home; the Rs benefit from their own obstruction. Don't be their useful idiot.

[Armstead]

201. No, the reality is that the Democrats got a mandate last year....

No I am not going to give up and allow the republicans to takeover again. But that little horsewhip has lost its sting.

Maybe instead of getting mad at those who are frustrated that we get the same old, same old shit regardless of the political equation, you might look at the real culprits -- the corporate Democrats.

The Democratic leadership screwed the pooch because they are still acting like the party of losers -- or worse, the party of "useful idiots" serving the same corporate masters that got us into this mess. All we ever hear is excuses from apologists and centrists for feeding us the same crap that people voted against last year.

If, after winning both houses and the WH, and facing a demoralized GOP that had been soundly rejected by voters, the Democratics leadership refused -- yes refused -- to pass a health care reform that was better than this travesty, they should be ashamed of themselves....Or some Dem leaders are proud of themselves for killing real reform and passing this insurance friendly travesty.

The dynamic here is that there were a handful of Conservadems who opposed a better bill (or probably any real reform)against a larger number of those who were committed to actual reform. And what happened -- pure and simple -- is that Obama and the rest of the "centrist" leadership threw their weight behind the real "bill killers" like Nelson and Baucus, instead of supporting the majority who wanted something better.

[Mimosa]

167. OUR PARTY DIDN'T EVEN TRY for SINGLE PAYER, expanding Fed Employee Plan or P.O.!

Dems in Congress sold us out from the get go. NOBODY tried to explain any options. This THING was DONE already back in March and April 2009 after Obama had all those meetings with the insurance, hospital and pharma execs. Check it out.

[Wardoc]

77. Got to hand it to the insurance industry. They played us like a fiddle...

...and the salt in the wound is it gets done in OUR name, thus muting any significant future opposition to it. Couldn't have worked out better for them if they wrote it themselves. And we will be told lies to cover the lies, that we should just support this crap sandwich and that it'll be improved later (though they can't say when, OR how, OR in what way but just trust them again).

[bardgal]

82. And this surprises you how????? It's a BUSINESS.... evil evil evil!

I work in insurance, I KNOW. I'm the person who calls the insurance companies to find out why they haven't paid your claim. I'm the one who tells you to stop seeing a doctor who doesn't take insurance and if you do, stop dreaming that your insurance company is going to pay you back anything for going out of network. I yell at these people for you, and I know how evil and dysfunctional this system has become.

They are in business to MAKE MONEY. It is NOT IN THIER INTEREST TO PAY YOUR CLAIM. They do not care about your health, or keeping you healthy, they are in business to MAKE MONEY. That means taking your premiums, and finding ways to NOT PAY YOUR CLAIM. How is this hard to understand? THEY ARE FOR PROFIT. They make money. LOADS OF IT. Trying to reverse this is going to be like taking down Goliath. They make every Mafia and drug cartel look like children in a sand box.

I wish everyone understood just how huge having the option for a non-profit company to run insurance in the bill actually is. Think of how big the universe is - well, it's close in the scheme of things.

In a nutshell: it's as if you went into a McDonald's (okay, gross, but bear with me for the sake of the analogy), ordered food, gave them your money and then the counter person says to you: "Uhm, I've decided not to give you your food because you didn't have prior authorization to eat this, and no, you don't get a refund."

The health insurance INDUSTRY is bigger and more evil than any of you can possibly imagine. Yet there are elected representatives out there trying to take them on, and I think they're the bravest people ever.

[aaronbav]

169. It was the SAME with NAFTA - Bush1 and all the RETUGHS

WANTED this (so called) "Free" Trade agreement - it took a huckster "Democratic" PREZ to get it enacted. Same deal with "healthcare" "reform".

The RETHughs could never in a MILLION years get somehing so HORRENDOUS through. It ALWAYS takes Both sides of the Corprowhore party (Republicrats) to get such travesties through.

There is currently ONLY ONE PARTY.

Let me REPEAT that last sentence:

THERE IS CURRENTLY ONLY ONE PARTY

- One and ONLY ONE Corporately CONTROLLED PARTY - Everything else is JUST an illusion to "CONTROL" the masses in the Corptocracy.

[cliffordu]

84. 14,000 community health care clinics.

My cancer-survivor uninsured, uninsurable wife will have help getting some modicum of care at last.

We haven't had insurance for her for twenty years.

We've been bankrupted over medical bills.


For some of us this bill has real, tangible, benefits.

But you go ahead, sweets, have your self righteous tantrum.

[Armstead]

96. They could have given benefits without locking in a worse system /nt

[cliffordu]

145. Yes, but no one I know wanted to help burn insurance executives in the streets

to get a better bill.,

[autorank]

85. Preach brother!

k*r

[tavalon]

86. The gig is up

When the Democrats were in the minority, they could huff and puff and have us sign petitions and walk those petitions up to the White House and they could even have hearings in the basements! "See what we want to do. The GOP, The Man is keeping us down!!!" They did quite the dog and pony show and oh, the promises, such beautiful promises, if only, if only, they could be in the majority. And now, they are and they are trying to run the same gig. "We can't do anything without a super majority. The GOP, Lieberman, The Man, is keeping us down!!!"

They really don't want us to mention things like reconciliation because it exposes their game, their big lie. But some of us, more of us every day, get that we're being gamed. The "health care reform" bill is crap and it isn't just because of the opposing team. Our side isn't interested in the least bit with actually helping us, just looking like they're helping us. Two very different animals, meant to look just the same.

[winyanstaz]

87. yup...we have been sold out...

[Tom Rinaldo]

88. You rant for me. K&R n/t

[Raine]

89. I'm with you

and I get madder and madder as time goes by! :mad:

[Enthusiast]

90. I share your concerns.

Now that we have lost this fight maybe we can concentrate on correcting the real problem of influence peddling and the outright bribery of our legislature. Any reasonable person would have to agree that this government is dysfunctional.

[DisgustedInMN]

92. You are not psychotic.

And neither are the millions of us that are of the exact same opinion you are. RahmCo can paint as much lipstick as they please on this pig and we'll see it for what it is, a fucking pig.

I've almost surpassed the point of trying to have a reasonable conversation about it with blind fools. This POS monstrosity will hang like an albatross around the neck of the Democratic Party and has the potential to completely destroy it. Perhaps a new, REAL Progressive Party will rise from the ashes, IF there's anything left to rise for.

[tomp]

97. obama's entire approach is so ass backwards....

....as to make one wonder what he was actually trying to achieve. (frankly, i think it's clear he wanted to help insurance and health care companies, but that's just me)

If you don't start out with equal right to health care for all people, irrespective of ability to pay, you're nowhere.

At some point we have to say everybody gets what they need, period. You establish that first and then figure out a fair way to pay for it. That is where obama failed--by not establishing that principle first.

Everyone knows single payer would work. obama=fail.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

104. Right, Job One should have been to ensure universal access

by taking another country's program off the shelf and tweaking it for American circumstances, whether this meant single-payer, national health service (Sanders' program on steroids), or insurance companies with choker collars around their necks (as in Germany).

[depakid]

125. Could have tweaked the Aussie model

with a medicare buy in and insurers with choker collars.

Had that been the case, we'd be talking about expanding the Democratic majority and relegating Republicans to the fringe for a generation or two.

[Lorien]

129. Exactly. The Democrats had one big chance to become the majority for decades

and they pissed it all away to appease the lobbyists.

[defendandprotect]

163. This is intended to destroy the Democratic Party . . . this doesn't happen by mistake . . .

While I completely agree with you that MEDICARE FOR ALL or Single Payer would have

made the Demcratic Party for the next 40 years -- and Obama's presidency --

it's not like the Dems don't know that. What's happening within this party is an

effort to dismantle it as any useful tool for liberal or progressive good.

Corporations aren't paying out this money to end up with Democrats actually doing

something meaningful in health care -- certainly not MEDICARE FOR ALL ... which

both Dems and Repugs would have found impossible to vote against with the public

watching!

:)

[icee]

170. D&P. I too think this was intended to destroy the Democratic

Party. I think Obama was hand-selected to be the agent of that destruction. We will continue to see little clues as to that belief. If I can find you, I will run the specific clue by you. If I can find you. There is a way to find other poster's posts, but I forget how to do it.

[defendandprotect]

174. While I still have problems finding ....

my way around here --

you can always find one of my posts and send a PM -- personal message --

and go to your DU . . . and you will see this thread and your replies on it --

hit one of those replies and it will bring you back to this thread.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the difficulty you're having -- if so, someone here

will always help you.

:)

[Lorien]

196. Personally I believe the goal of the DLC and their supporters is to destroy liberalism

eradicate it from American politics. The "Democratic party" will be allowed to continue as a secular branch of the GOP.

[tomp]

198. the shit is getting closer and closer to the fan...

...the democratic party is essentially out of bones to throw us and therefore has outlived its usefulness.

[Dinger]

98. Maybe I'm Psychotic Too

Oh well. I agree with you Armstead.

[change_notfinetuning]

102. Obama's grade on health care reform, the defining issue of his presidency is:

F

So how he deserves a B+ for his first year, as he has said, is beyond me. But ask any teacher. Students usually overrate their performance.

[defendandprotect]

175. For Americans -- and I would venture all Democrats, prevailing issues are WAR and Health Care...

How could Obama miss that ???

Rather, there are elite forces against this and unfortunately they have control not

only of the GOP but of both parties . . . as far as I can see --

And, I'd really be thrilled to see it some other way if I could!!


Agree ... an "F" on those two issues and quite a few more!

[shirlden]

106. My line in the sand

No Public Option........NO MANDATE
Just sent e-mail to my Senator Brown, who is extolling the virtues of this criminal act on the people. I normally love this man..........but he has jumped on the wrong band wagon. All my political contributions are now going to organic causes. My voting will consist of "write ins" for only progressives. I am only going to contribute energy and money to causes from now on.....not to people or parties.
I suggest that those of us on DU who are beyond frustrated with our Dems, begin to search for true Progressives and then work for "write in" campaigns. Take back our party!!!!!

:argh:

[Armstead]

109. people like Brown and Harkin put me into a quandry

I think they are great, and if the Democratoc Party had more like them, there would be ;positive progress.

But they were outnumbered and had their legs cut off by the DLC and Team Rhambama.

I don't know whether they should have refused to support this bill or not in the end or not. But frankly, I wish they had gotten together, stood their ground on some basic principles and flexed their collective muscles in the same way the Baucuses and Nelsons did.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

165. Yes, if the progressives had stood together, the Baucus-types would have

had to back down somewhat.

The Dems--even the normally good ones--have caved in so often over the past thirty years that I have to wonder if someone behind the scenes is threatening or blackmailing them.

[Mimosa]

113. We were sold out by Democrats and Republicans: both corporate vassals N/T

[alberg]

114. Kill the bill.

Listed below is our parties platform from 70 years ago. We are still looking for a leader who will passionately work to make these principles a reality.

“In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

. . . America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.”

--FDR's Economic Bill of Rights.

[DisgustedInMN]

115. To quote someone who I can't identify...

"I voted for a FDR and got a Clinton."

To which, I might add:

I absolutely HATE a bait and switch con and have an extremely long memory.

[icee]

116. Excellent. I too am so furious it is making me ill. Then I read

some of these posts about how wonderful this bill is and I wonder if certain people just walk around drunk all day. Have you seen what the drug companies are doing in preparation for this bill. Go look up the increase in Flomax, a drug I take to pee. I won't be able to afford it. Other pills I will simply discontinue and hope for the best. If that don't work, I commit suicide. My wife and I have talked about it. She is a DON of a nursing home. Has been for 40 years. She hears patients talking about having to commit suicide if Obamacare passes. Rant to your heart's content if it keeps you sane. Obama will be remembered in infamy if this bill passes. And the Democrats will lose the Senate, the House and the White House in 2012. And they will not gain any of them again prior to the breaking up of America.

[defendandprotect]

161. Agree re the predicted losses . . . this bill will destroy the Democratic Party . . .!!!

Also agree re fears of the elderly -- but we won't hear much about that

from corporate-press.

[Jakes Progress]

118. K&R Thanks for telling the truth again.

It is not popular with many. Anger may not be good for your physical health, but the psychotic denial by many here can't be good for their emotional health.

[FourScore]

119. I'm with you on this.

The real joke is that a republican might win Teddy's seat and be the one to kill the healthcare bill. There is so much tragic-comic material there, I don't even know where to begin...

[Luciferous]

122. I'm with you. They took the few good things out of the bill and

replaced them with absolute crap. I still can't believe that they are going to enforce mandates without a public option. I keep hoping that the bill won't pass, but I'm sure that it will, and the Democrats will pat themselves on the back for passing this sham of a reform.

They better enjoy it while it lasts, because I think most people are fed up with these corporate whores and will vote them out the second they get the chance... I know they aren't getting my vote ever again.

[placton]

124. Hey friend

just do as Tim Leary advised - turn on, tune in, drop out - we peons don't matter anymore, don't you see? And since we don't matter, good luck to the Dems when more and more of us follow that advice - 2 govs gone, and soon Teddy's Senate seat. Think if Hillary was president, we would be here?

[Phlem]

127. your not Psychotic

The cheerleaders on this board however I'd have to wonder.

-phlem

[Lorien]

128. The economy will not improve until the health care situation does

more than half of all foreclosures and bankruptcies are due to unaffordable health care. If we can't appeal to human decency, then we can at least appeal to their greed and selfishness. Your house won't sell for very much if others in your neighborhood are boarded up.

[femrap]

131. Given this 'Change,

I imagine we'll see more Assisted Suicides. Who wants to give their last cent to a Greedy Healthcare system that just sees dollar signs when a terminal patient enters their doors?

[marybourg]

132. You're probably not psychotic, but you're certainly immature and egocentric. nt

[salguine]

184. Pot, meet kettle.

[Aramchek]

133. psychosis is a helluva drug!

[NorthCarolina]

135. Rec #100 right here. eom

[GirlAfire]

136. You're Not the Only One n/t

I'm disappointed as well.

[BlueJac]

137. I am with you 100% .......

these people are making me sick.

[Piewhacket]

139. You're not psychotic. Just temporary insanity caused by politics as usual.

[Armstead]

200. Alas, politics as usual is permanent. Thus the choices often seem to be insanity or disengagement

[saracat]

143. I am NOT psychotic and I join your rant! And even more so as egregious bargains keep

being made behind closed doors. I read where the employer mandate have been quietly shelved, and nothing , nothing , nothing has been said about Stupak and its Nelson cousin. Seniors are already suffering with the compromise obama made with Big Pharma but I guess I am just a "hater" for daring to point that out.This bill is an outrage and we are expected to praise it, as something is better than nothing. Why did we howl when Bush took our rights away and it is okay for Obama? People talk of millions more insured. Insured, not able to get treatment. What about the millions who will die? What about those of of who can no longer afford their meds?

[midnight]

144. Actually you may not be Psychotic, but psychic or literate...You can read, and

the writing on the wall does not read well for consumers.... Another tax: Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, D-Mont., has advocated a tax on generous employer-provided health insurance plans as a way to pay for expanding health care coverage, but that proposal has drawn objections from the White House. The Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee voted Wednesday to approve a portion of the overall bill that Senate Democrats plan to introduce. The party-line vote of 13-10 would require individuals to buy health coverage and their employers to help pay for it.http://www.webcpa.com/news/House-Democrats-Introduce-Health-Insurance-Bill-51057-1.html

December 16, 2009, 11:28AM
"You will be forced to buy insurance. If you don't, you'll pay a fine," said Dean, a physician. "It's an insurance company bailout." Interviewed on ABC's "Good Morning America," he said the bill has some good provisions, "but there has to be a line beyond which you think the bill is bad for the country."
"This is an insurance company's dream," the former Democratic presidential candidate said. "This is the Washington scramble, and it's a shame."http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/noblecommentdecider/2009/12/howard-dean-senate-bill-a-bail.php

So combine a tax, a fine via a IRS audit, mandate to purchase insurance.... You are not psychotic..

[goclark]

146. Is that a threat or a promise about your last post?

[Armstead]

199. Sorry to disappoint you but I shall continue posting

[shopgreen]

148. I hear yah.

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Impedimentus]

168. Personality responsibility fallacy

Ah yes, the old "personal responsibility" admonishment again. True personal responsibility in a large and complex society requires a level playing field. There is NO level playing field, only the individual against ever growing moneyed interests and ever more powerful corporate control of government. The majority of the personal responsibility crowd never hesitate to condemn anything that might look like personal welfare, while they totally ignore or gleefully support corporate welfare.

Of course, we know where the usMarshall post is coming from.

Armstead, thank you for your post.

[newspeak]

173. WE, the people pay into medicare and SSA

No, medicare and SSA are just fine as long as some greedy politicians keep their paws off of it. Think of how much the "middle man" gets providing a service--medicare at one time could arbitrate fees, bring fees down. I'll trust a public program where the people still have a say through their representatives over a corporation with no oversight and I have little to no representation. All I have to do to see how privatization has worked is look how * privatized part of the military. Our troops were given contaminated water twice, substandard food and some were killed by faulty wiring just so a corporation could make a buck! And, where is the accountability? What has our government done to hold those corporations accountable--and, we don't even have to talk about our money being given to said corporations without accountability. Those corporations that have charged us for services or merchandise that our troops did not receive.

Reminds me of the Spanish-American War when the robber barons ruled--more of our soldiers died of tainted beef and bad guns than being killed by the spanish. And, what did the company get for knowingly sending tainted beef to our troops, a little hand slap. That's right murder soldiers and get a hand slap.

As said, don't talk about "pulling yourself up by the bootstraps" and all of the other shite--BECAUSE IT HAS NEVER BEEN A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD! And, the reason why we have social security and medicare is because that's what civilized nations do for their people--they take care of their people, especially in times like the great depression where people were starving, abandoning their children--people were dying. People who labored hard all of their lives. And, the industrialists could only think about how much more of a profit they could make on the backs of the weakest. How they could exploit those suffering to make an extra buck. And some of those same money grubbers actively supported Mussolini and Hitler--even supported them when our troops were dying in Europe. If you actually read history, you'll learn that some of those robber barons made money off of the backs of labor, off of stealing land, off of murdering those they thought were upstarts, off of stealing inventions. We, as a nation, need to realize it is not our individualism, but our community and our perceptions of taking care of each other that makes us stronger as a nation.

[Goldstein1984]

150. I'm also disappointed with the facade

And my votes and political contributions in 2010 and 2012 will reflect that disappointment.

I quit wasting my rants on HCR when I realized nobody in Washington was listening.

[Festivito]

153. I think we should hit the PRIMARIES in droves.

Otherwise, we're just a bunch of noise.

[totodeinhere]

154. This health care farce could be the reason why we lose the Massachusetts senate seat. n/t

[bertman]

155. Rec. nt

[defendandprotect]

156. No one could have voted against MEDICARE FOR ALL.... that's why they couldn't

propose it --

Let's face it, had this Democartic president and the Democratic Party put

MEDICARE FOR ALL in place, it would hae made the Democratic Party for the next

40 years!

How could any Repug have voted against MEDICARE FOR ALL?

How could any Democrat have voted against MEDICARE FOR ALL?

They couldn't -- that's why single payer and MEDICARE FOR ALL had to be kept

"off the table" --!!

Corporations are buying government and buying our political parties so that the

two party tyranny will keep MEDICARE FOR ALL off the table --

[Cleita]

157. Also, pouring subsidies of tax payer's money into the insurance company

coffers will increase the burden on the system and eventually bankrupt this country and they will start limiting fees and eliminating benefits to slow this down. It's what's happening to Medicare with the Medicare money being siphoned off by the Medicare Advantage health plans and Medicare Part D, which is wholly run by the private sector. It's bankrupting Medicare. I don't understand that they don't get it.

I think the only way to bust up this industry cartel is to convince doctors to refuse health insurance and demand cash for services up front. The doctor I work for already does this. It's up to the patient to get the money back from their insurers. It will not only piss off people to do this but also the Congress members who will have to do it as well. We won't get anything worthwhile until they are as equally inconvenienced by their health care as the rest of us.

[timzi]

171. Thanks For The Post....I've Been Furious For Months Now

Obama is content with a corporate welfare version of health care reform.

Even worse, he is expanding an unjust war which continues to kill innocents.

So I can no longer support him.

The cheerleaders who object to this perspective can kiss my ass.
They have no right to expect others to support the IMMORAL.

[Skittles]

185. you are not psychotic - the bill is an absolute disgrace

[yurbud]

186. instead of price control, ''cost'' control which means helping insurance companies avoid claims

[PBS Poll-435]

187. Your concern is noted. Thanks. nt

[glitch]

188. As is your indifference. No thanks. db

[Fire1]

189. Boo hoo. n/t

[winyanstaz]

195. It makes me sick.....and with this bill...I cant afford that :(

[ibegurpard]

197. too old to recommened

guess I'll just kick it

[1corona4u]

203. I agree. Nothing changes.

It's all bullshit. And we all get to pay for it, as usual.

[centristgrandpa]

208. something (HC) is better than nothing,..wtf...

and i thought the republicans were idiots...mandate trillions to the insurance industry, whose side is obama on?