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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 05:35 PM
Original message
Krugman: More on Jon Gruber

More on Jon Gruber

Today Glenn Greenwald accused me of being a hypocrite for defending Jonathan Gruber, the health care economist who has become a target of some progressive opponents of the health care plan. He writes:

Paul Krugman, for instance, in 2005 angrily lambasted right-wing pundits and policy analysts who received secret, undisclosed payments, and said they lack “intellectual integrity”; he specifically cited the Armstrong Williams case. Yet the very same Paul Krugman last week attacked Marcy Wheeler for helping to uncover the Gruber payments by accusing her of being “just like the right-wingers with their endless supply of fake scandals.” What is one key difference? Unlike Williams and Gallagher, Jonathan Gruber is a Good, Well-Intentioned Person with Good Views — he favors health care — and so massive, undisclosed payments from the same administration he’s defending are dismissed as a “fake scandal.”

What’s wrong with this accusation? Everything. Armstrong Williams received a contract specifically to promote Bush administration policies; his duties under the contract were to “regularly comment” on these policies on his program, and to interview Bush administration officials. In short, he was being paid to serve as a propagandist.

What was Gruber contracted to do? He emails:

I was contracted with HHS for technical modeling assistance. When designing a policy like this, policy makers want to consider a million different permutations: different AVs, tax credit amounts, employer assessments, etc. Basically, in a perfect world, we would all just rely on CBO for all these permutations. But CBO has limited resources and can’t work directly with the administration. So I provided the administration & congress (mostly senate finance) with the kind of modeling that CBO does to help them narrow options to a more manageable list that they could send to CBO.

That is, he was hired as an economist, paid to provide technical analysis — not as a pundit, paid to promote policies to the public. Maybe Glenn Greenwald can’t see any difference between the two — and the more of this I read, the more sense I have that the attackers are deliberately obfuscating the difference — but they really aren’t the same.

Now, there have been sweetheart consulting deals in the past, which were really a way of buying support. And if Gruber were a highly implausible candidate for this kind of consulting, you might suspect that this was one of them. But Gruber had a well-established record as a prominent health care modeler long before any of this came along; here’s a quick list from Google Scholar. It was perfectly natural that he would be hired to do this.

In fact, it’s hard to see who else you could have hired. Modeling health reform is a very detail-driven business: you need a detailed statistical representation of the population, together with detailed estimates of behavioral responses to incentives. Gruber has spent years developing such a model, which is maintained and update at considerable expense. Who else could bring the same resources to bear? Well, I guess the administration could have turned to the Lewin Group, but aside from the fact that Gruber has such sterling academic credentials, Lewin is owned by United Healthcare.

In other words, Gruber is a real authority, and the obvious person to fill a needed role. As I’ve written before, he should have taken more pains to reveal that role. But there was nothing corrupt about the arrangement.

more


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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. The entire Greenwald piece should be read ...
Obama confidant's spine-chilling proposal

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/01/15/sunstein/index.html

"Cass Sunstein has long been one of Barack Obama's closest confidants. Often mentioned as a likely Obama nominee to the Supreme Court, Sunstein is currently Obama's head of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs where, among other things, he is responsible for "overseeing policies relating to privacy, information quality, and statistical programs." In 2008, while at Harvard Law School, Sunstein co-wrote a truly pernicious paper proposing that the U.S. Government employ teams of covert agents and pseudo-"independent" advocates to "cognitively infiltrate" online groups and websites -- as well as other activist groups -- which advocate views that Sunstein deems "false conspiracy theories" about the Government. This would be designed to increase citizens' faith in government officials and undermine the credibility of conspiracists. The paper's abstract can be read, and the full paper downloaded, here.

...Sunstein advocates that the Government's stealth infiltration should be accomplished by sending covert agents into "chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups." He also proposes that the Government make secret payments to so-called "independent" credible voices to bolster the Government's messaging (on the ground that those who don't believe government sources will be more inclined to listen to those who appear independent while secretly acting on behalf of the Government).

...There's no evidence that the Obama administration has actually implemented a program exactly of the type advocated by Sunstein, though in light of this paper and the fact that Sunstein's position would include exactly such policies, that question certainly ought to be asked. Regardless, Sunstein's closeness to the President, as well as the highly influential position he occupies, merits an examination of the mentality behind what he wrote. This isn't an instance where some government official wrote a bizarre paper in college 30 years ago about matters unrelated to his official powers; this was written 18 months ago, at a time when the ascendancy of Sunstein's close friend to the Presidency looked likely, in exactly the area he now oversees. Additionally, the government-controlled messaging that Sunstein desires has been a prominent feature of U.S. Government actions over the last decade, including in some recently revealed practices of the current administration, and the mindset in which it is grounded explains a great deal about our political class. All of that makes Sunstein's paper worth examining in greater detail.

...Indeed, there is a very strong case to make that what Sunstein is advocating is itself illegal under long-standing statutes prohibiting government "propaganda" within the U.S., aimed at American citizens:

...Consider the recent revelation that the Obama administration has been making very large, undisclosed payments to MIT Professor Jonathan Gruber to provide consultation on the President's health care plan. With this lucrative arrangement in place, Gruber spent the entire year offering public justifications for Obama's health care plan, typically without disclosing these payments, and far worse, was repeatedly held out by the White House -- falsely -- as an "independent" or "objective" authority. Obama allies in the media constantly cited Gruber's analysis to support their defenses of the President's plan, and the White House, in turn, then cited those media reports as proof that their plan would succeed. This created an infinite "feedback loop" in favor of Obama's health care plan which -- unbeknownst to the public -- was all being generated by someone who was receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars in secret from the administration (read this to see exactly how it worked)..."



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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Large UNDISCLOSED payments?
I'm not going to link to that POS website, but if you look at the original accusations on Teabag Lake, they provide a link to the Request For Proposal where Gruber was hired. Undisclosed? The terms and conditions of his contract are available on the fucking internet.

NEW OBAMA RULE. When you hire a consultant, a practice pursued by administrations going back for decades, the consultant can no longer allowed to speak to anybody in the media lest he appear to be a "paid propagandist" for the administration.

Of course, the Obama Haters Group (formerly known at the Ku Klux Klan) will then loudly claim that Obama is engaging in SECRET NEGOTIATIONS and is keeping vital information from the public.

Fuck 'em. Fuck 'em all.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. From Greenwald's trainwreck post
UPDATE: I don't want to make this primarily about the Gruber scandal -- I cited that only as an example of the type of mischief that this mindset produces -- but just to respond quickly to the typical Gruber defenses already appearing in comments:...(4) Williams/Gallagher were explicitly paid to advocate particular views while Gruber wasn't (true: that's exactly the arrangement Sunstein advocates to avoid "embarrassment" in the event of disclosure, and it's absurd to suggest that someone being paid many hundreds of thousands of dollars is unaware of what their paymasters want said; that's why disclosure is so imperative).


In the original piece, Greenwald gives the impression that Sunstein had proposed infiltrating "chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups" to spread propaganda:

Sunstein advocates that the Government's stealth infiltration should be accomplished by sending covert agents into "chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups." He also proposes that the Government make secret payments to so-called "independent" credible voices to bolster the Government's messaging (on the ground that those who don't believe government sources will be more inclined to listen to those who appear independent while secretly acting on behalf of the Government).


Then comes this update:

UPDATE III: Just to get a sense for what an extremist Cass Sunstein is (which itself is ironic, given that his paper calls for "cognitive infiltration of extremist groups," as the Abstract puts it), marvel at this paragraph:



His entire original post was a misrepresentation of the facts. Sustein's piece, whether one agrees with it or not, is about combatting extremism. "Government might impose a some kind of tax..." Is that supposed to be an example of a covert strategy?

Krugman is right: Greenwald is "deliberately obfuscating the difference."



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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Yeah, but Sunstein is still an idiot. I don't know about you, but I can
smell a plant when they show up on the internet. You can tell when money has changed hands. The only thing that would make sense is if an agent was trying to infiltrate a terrorist organization and they started by posting messages on one of their websites. Well, okay. But just having some guy trolling sites, I just think it's a bad idea. It'll cause more harm than good.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Regardless, that has nothing to do with Greenwald's distortion. n/t


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Capers Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. It's your distortion. You should have read it before posting about it.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
43. It's garbage. n/t
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Sunstein's piece is about "combatting extremism" in the form of conspiracy theorists. And...?
Gee, nothing wrong with that, right? Let's just resuscitate Hoover and put him on the case.
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Capers Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. Your entire post is a misrepresentation of facts.
Sunstein's piece was about the government deciding what the public should believe on a vast array of issues, including the JFK assassination. And he recommends government propaganda wholeheartedly.

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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Please post where it was disclosed on the WH site that there was ...
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 09:13 PM by slipslidingaway
a financial interest, there are instances where he was referred to as an independent and objective analyst. If a Republican administration had done this many people here would think it worthy of discussion.

They should have disclosed the contracts and they did not.

It really is that simple.

Did you bother to read the whole post by Greenwald or just zero in on one part of one sentence.

:(


http://www.baltimorereporter.com/?p=7427

"...On the 29th Nancy-Ann DeParle, head of the very White House Office of Health Reform that Gruber was hired to consult for, posted perhaps the most misleading column of all on the White House blog:

MIT Economist Confirms Senate Health Reform Bill Reduces Costs and Improves Coverage

She identified Gruber as an “MIT Economist who has been closely following the health insurance reform process” who had “issued a compelling new report.” There was no acknowledgment that her very own White House office had commissioned Gruber’s work..."




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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. As Greenwald is a flaming fucktard....
no, I did not waste several minutes of my life reading his beyond-asinine post.

Gruber has a federal grant. He is also employed as a consultant. Consultants are hired provide specific technical advice. When asked by a media outlet for the results of his analysis of the situation, Gruber provided it.

His alternative would have been to say, "I'm sorry, but I'm not at liberty to discuss the results of my analysis with the media," which would have caused Ignorant Fucktard Greenwald to howl like like a scalded cat about the lack of transparancy in the Obama Administration.

So a hearty "Fuck You" to Mr. Greenwald and a hearty "Fuck you" to anybody else who wants to do the heavy lifting for Fox News.
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Capers Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. Gruber signed a contract saying he was not being paid by the government.
He lied.

Your "liberty to discuss" crack only exposes your inclination to provide a strawman defense. Now nobody will believe what you post about this. But it looks like you don't really care what people think of you.
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #21
47. Prove it...
Lies a dime a dozen (and they appear to be on sale this week).

Provie it or shut your piehole.
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Capers Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #47
57. He's admitted to it. The Times has covered it. It's not a secret.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
35. And DeParle is a flaming fucking liar
A hearty "fuck you" goes out to anyone who wants to excuse lying to the public because the liar has a D by her name.
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Capers Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. Undisclosed to the point of fraud.
Gruber committed fraud against both the New York Times and the Washington Post. He signed his name to his lies. This will not change.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
34. BS. n/t
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
48. He did nothing of the sort....
Not one syllable of what he provided to the New York Times was false. The only issue here is that the papers were not aware that he was a consultant.

If I'm being paid to determine whether 2+2=4, it doesn't make 2+2=5 because I didn't disclose my employment status.
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Capers Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. What I'm saying is that he lied when he signed his disclosure contract
indicating that he was not a government consultant.

Try the math again.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I read the entire piece (I often read Glenn) and here is the deal:
Glenn takes two different things and conflates them. First he talks about a thesis an Obama Administration official wrote when he was at Harvard (18 months ago). I agree with Glenn that the thesis is ridiculous and dangerous thinking. Well, to me just plain dumb. You can't pay people to blog without disclosure or have government agents comment without disclosing who they are. PERIOD. It was about dealing with 9/11 conspiracy theories in the Muslim world. So I was in agreement with Glenn, and think this guy should be kind of watched in the agency he is in charge of. We should keep an eye on what he is up to. Definitely.

Then, Glenn gives Gruber as an example of someone paid to do propaganda and that it was all done on the sly. Now I agree with Krugman about how Gruber was NOT paid to shill for HRC. But more importantly, what the hell does the Gruber situation have to do with government agents infiltrating conspiracy theory websites? I mean I just found it a total stretch.

Of course, for my opinions Greenwald will just say I am an Obama fan girl who can't think for myself. Sigh.
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Capers Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. False thesis. Sustein did not write about Muslim extremism and 9/11.
Edited on Sat Jan-16-10 03:35 PM by Capers
Those were merely examples cited.

What this is about is the government subverting democracy. Not a conflation at all.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. Fuck that whiny glen greenwald and Liar dog lake.
They so want a HUGE scandal to fatten their coffers.
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Yes....
Let's be clear about this. Tagbagger Lake is a business concern, and they have to drive traffic to their site in whatever manner possible to increase their bottom line. This flaming crapola their posting is nothing more than an attempt to cash in.

Screw 'em....
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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
9. I really admire Greenwald
and he is embarrassingly wrong about this.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:25 AM
Response to Original message
12. KnR for Krugman, whom I trust. nt
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Capers Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. You shouldn't trust a guy who likens politics to epidemiology.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
53. LOL. Krugman's a twitchy guy, but very, very bright.
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Irish_shark Donating Member (133 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
14. Greenwald responds to Krugman's response
Edited on Sat Jan-16-10 02:03 PM by Irish_shark
Greenwald today: "Indeed, from what I can tell, few people other than Krugman are trying to defend it. Krugman's own newspaper, which had published an Op-Ed by Gruber about health care, issued a fairly harsh "correction" once these payments were uncovered, in which they said: "Had editors been aware of Professor Gruber’s government ties, the Op-Ed page would have insisted on disclosure or not published his article." They appended a similar note to Gruber's Op-Ed indicating that "Professor Gruber signed a contract that obligated him to tell editors of such a relationship," yet failed to do so. "

More: http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/01/16/krugman/index.html
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. That's Greenwald's defense for his trainwreck post?
A circular reference to the incident that started the faux outrage?

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Irish_shark Donating Member (133 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Not just that. Greenwald notes that Armstrong contract didn't specifically ask for a partiular view
Edited on Sat Jan-16-10 02:11 PM by Irish_shark
The article to which I linked has many paragraphs, of which I posted only one. Reading the whole piece is recommended. Here's Greenwald correcting Krugman's assertion that Armstrong was paid to express a particular view:

"Contrary to Krugman's suggestion, Williams' contract did not require him to express any particular view about No Child Left Behind, but rather, only to offer commentary on the policy. Williams presumably could have offered whatever opinions he wanted on that law consistent with his contract. Obviously, the fact that Williams was being paid $220,000 by the administration provided a strong incentive for him to provide favorable commentary, which is the whole point: that's why such relationships must be disclosed and why concealing them is misleading.


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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. Greenwald is suddenly an apologist for Armstrong Williams, payola and propaganda.
Great.

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Capers Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. No, you are.
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Irish_shark Donating Member (133 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Wrong. Greenwald criticized Armstrong
Edited on Sat Jan-16-10 03:47 PM by Irish_shark
Greenwald equates what Gruber did with what Armstrong did, and we all know Greenwald is criticizing Gruber. So how can anyone conclude that he is an "apologist" for Armstrong? Greenwald says the problem is not that either of these individuals were told specifically "say X or Y," but that their ties were hidden.

Greenwald makes clear that simply receiving lots of money from a source makes that person susceptible to bias.

I quote againg: ""Contrary to Krugman's suggestion, Williams' contract did not require him to express any particular view about No Child Left Behind, but rather, only to offer commentary on the policy. Williams presumably could have offered whatever opinions he wanted on that law consistent with his contract. Obviously, the fact that Williams was being paid $220,000 by the administration provided a strong incentive for him to provide favorable commentary, which is the whole point: that's why such relationships must be disclosed and why concealing them is misleading."



Whoever claims that Armstrong was told specifically what to say should offer proof instead, if their goal is to differentiate the Armstrong case with the Gruber case.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. BS. Greenwald originally tried to frame Gruber and Armstrong as being the same and
then he backtracked in the update. He's full of shit.

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Irish_shark Donating Member (133 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Can you point to the part where he allegedly backtracked?
Edited on Sat Jan-16-10 03:53 PM by Irish_shark
Greenwald was consistent in these three things throughout his posts:

1- Armstrong was paid to express an opinion.
2- Armstrong was not told specifically to express an opinion favorable to the Government's, as far as we know.
3- Even if Armstrong Williams was not told what to say, the money he received rendered him susceptible to bias.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Train
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Irish_shark Donating Member (133 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Huh? Where's the backtracking?
Edited on Sat Jan-16-10 04:16 PM by Irish_shark
The part you bolded says that Greenwald denies that Armstrong was paid to express a particular position. I asked you earlier to say when he "backtracked" on that assertion.

Then you go on to talk about Susstein's comment about infiltration, of which you and I were not talking about. You said Greenwald backtracked on the Armstrong/Gruber comparison. Where did he backtrack?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Are you kidding?
That's Greenwald's update after being called on the comparison. If he believes that they aren't the same, why did he make the bogus comparison?

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Irish_shark Donating Member (133 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Greenwald criticizes a common problem in both cases
Edited on Sat Jan-16-10 04:29 PM by Irish_shark
Lack of disclosure. Where did you get the idea that Greenwald said the cases are not the same? The difference between Commentary and technical assistance are irrelevant (Not that Gruber didn't write op-eds. I believe we all know what "op-ed" means). in Greenwald's view due to the fact that (as the New York Times editor's note noted the other day) disclosure was OBLIGATORY in both cases.

Here's the similarty:

1-) Neither was paid explicitly to express a particular view.
2-) Neither disclosed the ties.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Do you even understand what your're reading or are you pretending to be confused
You:

Here's the similarty:

1-) Neither was paid explicitly to express a particular view.


Greenwald in his update:

Williams/Gallagher were explicitly paid to advocate particular views while Gruber wasn't (true:



Greenwald's post is a trainwreck.


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Irish_shark Donating Member (133 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. But he explains that Armstrong held those views before they hired him
Edited on Sat Jan-16-10 04:44 PM by Irish_shark
That's what he meant when he said "a particular view." They didn't have to tell him wht to say because they KNEW Armstrong would say it.

"I explicitly acknowledged that to be the case. But that's always the defense offered in non-disclosure scandals, and it's usually true. Nobody claimed that Armstrong Williams -- a loyal, right-wing, doctrinaire Bush follower -- supported Bush's policies only because he was paid to do so; indeed, Williams' defense was that he had a long record of passionate advocacy for those education policies long before he was paid. "

Likewise, Gruber's views have been known forever, and the White House knew what to expect from Gruber. Why do you think they gave him all that money?

If you can point to an article where Williams is told to say this or that we will greatly appreciate it. You seem to imply that you read specific talking-points that Armstrong was told to express by the Bush administration.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. That makes no sense. n/t
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Irish_shark Donating Member (133 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. You pretend it makes no sense nt
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. Didn't Krugman himself acknowledge that Gruber should have disclosed it?
So what is he complaining about? :shrug: I didn't see anyone criticizing Krugman about Gruber until he jumped into the fray to defend his pal.
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. Gruber should have disclosed. End of story.
All the rest is heavy breathing and faux indignation.

Gruber should have disclosed.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
17. Greenwald is a good progressive, but he stepped in it this time.
Edited on Sat Jan-16-10 03:06 PM by izzybeans
We spent 8 years complaining about experts being locked out of this very process (i.e. weighing in on technical policy matters). I don't think Greenwald understands how expertise is used. He was paid for his expertise (or objective opinion, as the Obama admin. calls it). Armstrong Williams was paid to lie, has no expertise to speak of, and can not claim to have gone through the process that makes one's opinion "objective" (i.e. peer review).

As Krugman points out, nothing Gruber has said contradicts his academic research. We are howling at the administration for calling in expertise on a matter that most of us (including myself) do not understand fully. Somehow we have morphed into anti-intellectual reactionaries. Not sure how, but on this topic, that's where we landed.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Krugman has made it into the Big Club - where intellect can mask greed and arrogance.
I don't believe anything that he's selling us these days.

Greenwald is, as usual, spot on. :thumbsup:
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
32. Krugman has always been willing to sell whatever the people he's working for want him to.
Science and research are incredibly important to society and somehow that has led some people to believe that "experts" in any field of science or academia are infallible gods. I mean, fuck, if I hear about Krugman's Nobel Prize one more time I'm going to puke. Milton Friedman and Henry Kissinger got them too.
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Capers Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Like Krugman, you seem to be likening science to politics.
Healthcare reform ain't science.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. So there's no problem with Gruber's contract being disclosed from now on, is there?
He will no longer be cited as an "independent expert from MIT". He will be described as an expert who happens to have a contract with HHS. So what?
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
28. So there's no problem with disclosing Gruber's contract from now on, is there Dr. Krugman?
Honestly, I don't see what HCR supporters are so upset about here. Grubman hasn't been fired and nothing will happen except that from now on when he writes an op-ed or is quoted his role with the administration will be disclosed.

Can someone explain to me what the big deal is about that?
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #28
49. You're getting warm....
There is no issue here.

Gruber was hired to provide complex statistical analyses of healthcare models to the Obama Administration, as he's one of only a handful of people in the United States who have this very specific expertise. Administrations have contracted for assistance from consultants for generations, so there's no new ground being broken here. Gruber wrote about his findings - something else that academic consultants do on a routnie basis.

The only problem is that in the hot-house environment of national politics and the healthcare debate, some people have decided that since Gruber was a paid consultant, his every utterance in the media must be propaganda from the Obama Administration. They fail to distinguish the difference between being paid to provide expert services and being paid to spout propaganda. Gruber is an expert on healthcare economics. He's not a public relations hired-gun.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. The Armstrong Williams comparison was about lack of disclosure, not the nature of the contracts
And the NYT and WaPo disagree with you about the necessity of disclosure when writing op-eds. He signed disclosures stating he had no conflict of interest. When he wrote an article for the New England Journal of Medicine he disclosed his contract to them. He had to or else they'd excoriate him professionally for it. Why are Gruber's academic peers more worthy than the general public, Jeff? What's with this notion that academic research is some super special arena where people with research grants are special gods with special privileges?
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. You're getting colder...
Armstrong Williams was a journalist paid to write favorable articles for the Bush Administration with the SPECIFIC intention of promoting Bush policies and misleading the public in the process.

NEJM (and nearly all other academic and scholarly journals) require a Conflict of Interest disclosure as a matter of course. Gruber didn't decide to volunteer that information -- it was required as a condition of being published. I would add that applications for research funding are typically accompanied by a biosketch that includes (ta da) all other current financial support being received by the applicant.

To preserve scientific and scholarly integrity, the bar is placed far high than it is at a general circulation newspaper. Even though the New York Times and the Washington Post have no such requirements, I would agree that Gruber should have made it clear to their respective editorial boards -- a mistake that I doubt he will make again.

That being said, what is there in Gruber's published writings on this subject that would be different had that disclosure been made? The suppostition is that Gruber was publishing an opinion that was not sustainable by the actual findings from his research. So what, specifically, did Gruber lie about?
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. And you're getting increasingly condescending and patronizing, yet haven't made your case
To preserve scientific and scholarly integrity, the bar is placed far high than it is at a general circulation newspaper. Even though the New York Times and the Washington Post have no such requirements, I would agree that Gruber should have made it clear to their respective editorial boards -- a mistake that I doubt he will make again.

So the general public is not entitled to the same scientific and scholarly integrity because, why, precisely? Furthermore, WaPo and NYT specifically asked Gruber if he had a conflict of interest and he denied he did. I'm actually willing to give him the minor benefit of the doubt, since it's possible that he suffers from the same sort of god complex that other academics apparently do. But those papers still insist he should have disclosed his contract.

Gruber is far from the biggest liar in this story, though. Everyone in the Administration who presented his opinions as those of an "independent MIT expert" is guilty of blatant prevarication.
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. It's because I'm getting increasingly annoyed....
It comes down to this. Either Gruber's op-ed and statements to the media are false or they were not. Either he was planting false stories in the media that were contrary TO HIS ACTUAL FINDINGS or he was simply relaying the results of his research. Either he was acting as a shill for the Obama Administration or he was commenting on the data that was before him.

And so....

Unless you can show me, specifically, where the words of Jon Gruber as published in the New York Times or the Washington Post are IN ANY WAY contradictory to his established research on this subject, you really should shut your fucking piehole and stop accusing an otherwise honest academic and scholar of misconduct that never happened.

Gruber was hired by the Obama Administration -- in the light of day -- to provide statistical analyses of healthcare proposals. Even Jane Hamsher's latest screed ackowledges that. But then she goes on to accuse Gruber of accepting "large, unknown payments" from the Administration. If you know full fucking well that the guy has a contract to provide services how does it become "unknown" that he's being paid for his time and effort? Please explain that to me, because my twenty years of dealing with federal contracts has left me unable to connect those dots.

I'm through dealing with you, Kitty. Your ill-informed and downright asinine pseudo-opinions are littering this board like pigeon droppings. You clearly don't know what you're talking about and you clearly have no intention of doing the research necessary to create an informed opinion.

IGNORED

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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Damn, dude, try some yoga breathing.
Plus how can you demand that I explain things to you and then put me on ignore? :shrug:

Of course, I suspect you're the type of DUer who puts people on ignore and then takes them off to see how they respond to you.
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