Why do some people think opposing health reform is a political winner?

[ProSense]

Does anyone think they can get the unions' support by opposing health reform?

SEIU: The Real Story on the Excise Tax Framework

NEA: Agreement Reached on Excise Tax

AFL-CIO: Health Care Tax: Union Leaders Outline Big Improvements for All Working Families

Teamsters: Hoffa Statement About Agreement With White House On Health Care Excise Tax

The unions are happy with the compromise and strongly support passing the bill.

[freddie mertz]

1. Your posts on the subject have done much to convince me, it turns out.

The more links you post, the worse it looks.

PS. and another thing: Why are you now celebrating (through links) the labor compromise you opposed so vociferously until the pres made the deal?

Which position was the right one in your eyes?

[ProSense]

3. Convince you? It's a question.

"PS. and another thing: Why are you now celebrating (through links) the labor compromise you opposed so vociferously until the pres made the deal?"

I did no such thing. Being for an excise tax isn't remotely equivalent to opposing a compromise.

[freddie mertz]

5. Actually, if you passionately support something the way you support the excise tax.

...then you should be against THIS compromise, as I suspect you were, and are.

As for the rest, that speaks for itself.

[ProSense]

6. "then you should be against THIS compromise"

Ludicrous.

[freddie mertz]

8. If I had the slightest hope there was an actual person out there who could be reached...

I would try to explain to you just what the impact of your effort had been to my personal opinion of the HCR bill.

But I don't think it would do any good.

Get on with your mission, and don't bother yourself anymore with my measly, merely humanoid concerns.

[ProSense]

9. "I would try to explain to you just what the impact of your effort had been to my personal opinion"

I don't care.

[freddie mertz]

11. Don't I know it!

Getting a little testy, though, aren't we?

[ProSense]

16. Testy?

No, just stating a fact.

[freddie mertz]

26. Yeah, that's all you ever do....

State "facts"....:rofl:

[ProSense]

31. Yes, as opposed to

nonsense like this: "I would try to explain to you just what the impact of your effort had been to my personal opinion"

[freddie mertz]

32. It would be like talking to a wall.

Sorry.

[karynnj]

25. That's absurd

Even the Senator who suggested the tax did so as a tax that could lead to a compromise solution. I would think that you would have to be pretty inflexible if you rejected anything but one possible plan.

Personally, I think most of the changes made make the tax better and fairer. I really really really do not like the labor exception as there is NO WAY I can coherently defend it as fair. This tells me that this was done just because labor has the power to destroy the entire plan. Now, that said - I still think the entire plan is landmark legislation.

[freddie mertz]

28. Labor has the power. Which is a good thing.

We need more unions, not less.

[HughMoran]

2. The perfect is the enemy of the good

It's :crazy: and self-defeating...

[Wardoc]

45. So is the terrible, and this bill is terrible. (nt)

[niceypoo]

51. That has been downgraded

It is now, "the barely worth passing is the enemy of the hollowed out husk"

[Lord Helmet]

4. Short-sightedness and the desire to see the democrats fail.

[johan helge]

7. Of course they support passing the bill.

They are not crazy. They know that it will probably be a long time before the Democrats have 60 senators again.

[Hello_Kitty]

10. Why do some people spend all day spamming DU instead of selling health care to the public?

For the umpteenth time, ProSense, you are accomplishing nothing by doing this. You are preaching to the choir who agrees with you and failing to persuade anyone else.

Get thee to an OFA phone bank or canvass and persuade your neighbors of how great this HCR is.

[freddie mertz]

12. That is what I was trying to explain.

Spamming the same links over and over and insulting people who disagree with them is not an effective method of persuasion.

But it won't sink in.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[freddie mertz]

15. A few sensible words a bit of humility and humanity, these do a lot more...

To bring people into one's fold than posting an avalanche of spam, seasoned with insults, self-righteous complaints about the "rules not being enforced," and orders to "get out" of the forum.

[Hello_Kitty]

17. Yeah, and if you think it's turning us lefty bloggers off,

Imagine how it comes across to the mainstream public. I quite literally cringe when I hear some HCR proponents on TV talking about things like mandates or the excise tax.

[ProSense]

19. "us lefty bloggers off" There you go again

assuming that being pissed off is equivalent to an ideology. There are a lot of people on the left who don't agree with you.

[Hello_Kitty]

20. True, I should have qualified it with "some".

Whatever. Still, my point stands. Your talking points suck and you need to work on them, badly.

[ProSense]

18. "pom pom squad " Is that your new name for unions?

Name calling is all you have. Pathetic.

[Hello_Kitty]

21. Oh gee, are you pro-union or anti-union this week?

What did Rahm tell you to be?

[ProSense]

23. Which are you this week:

Are you standing with unions in support of the compromise?

I've always supported the unions. I disagreed that the excise tax was a bad idea.

So are you standing with the unions this week?

[freddie mertz]

27. "I've always supported the unions."

Talk about NONSENSE.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ProSense]

33. Are you laughing

to avoid addressing the question: Are you standing with the unions on the compromise?

[freddie mertz]

34. Unlike you, I supported the union effort.

I would have preferred the complete elimination of the McCain excise tax, but they probably got the best could in the fact of the president's personal insistence on keeping part of it.

As for the bill, I would not, personally, be able to vote for any version of the present bill without a strong public option.

I'm not sure whether I think passing or killing it would be worse for the party and the nation.

There is no "good" outcome.



.

[ProSense]

36. "I would have preferred the complete elimination of the McCain excise tax" that's your problem

being unable to tell the difference between taxing insurance companies for an excess over a certain amount and McCain's nutty scheme to tax everyone's entire benefits.

[freddie mertz]

38. Yeah, I've read your often-OPed explanation of this...

The whole stupid, rotten idea was predicated on trying to "controls costs" in a mandated FOR PROFIT system... and represented a violation of at least two (three if you count the mandate, four if you count dropping the public option) of Obama's key campaign pledges on the issue.

A tragic policy reversal, disastrous politically, which was rightly reversed (at least in part), by the union effort you so vigorously opposed.

[Sebastian Doyle]

14. Why don't you ask the worthless shits who oppose it?

Joe Lieberman, Max Baucus, Blanche WalMart, Mary wouldn't know a Democratic vote if it smacked her upside the head Landrieu, Ben "Mutual of Omaha" Nelson, etc.

[Hello_Kitty]

22. Shhh....Because those are people with actual power to derail the bill. eom

[ProSense]

24. Did they vote for the bill? n/t

[freddie mertz]

30. Yes, after ruining it.

Just stating a "fact."

With presidential help, and your immediate, resounding support.

:patriot: :spray: :rofl: :popcorn: :hide:

[freddie mertz]

29. Delete, Wrong place.

[bvar22]

35. I support Health Care Reform.

That is WHY I oppose this "bait & switch" give away of Public Money to the Health Insurance Industry masquerading as "Reform".


I will admit that the Kabuki Theater was mildly entertaining.
At one point, it actually looked like the Corporate Owned "Centrist" Democrats were going to throw a crumb to the Working Class (the mythological Public Option), but I let my "HOPE" influence my knowledge of the the last 20 years of Democratic Party politics.

We ARE going to get Mandates without a Public Option, which IS a Republican Plan, though the Republicans could have NEVER gotten away with it. A transfer of Public Money to Private pockets THIS massive requires the "Centrist" Democrats.

The blood bath that WILL follow the Democrats FORCING this very unpopular legislation on the American People WILL allow the Republican to de-regulate Any and ALL token "regulations" contained in this nightmare of a Bill before ANY of them really take effect.

Just compare what the Democrats are giving us compared to Health Care in ANY other civilized country in the World....
AND THEN listen to those who say "THIS is the BEST they could do".

In 2008, the American people gave the Democrats:
*The White House
*BIG MAJORITIES in The House
*A filibuster proof MAJORITY in the Senate
*A HUGE MANDATE for "CHANGE"
and
THIS is the BEST the Democratic Party can do!!

.
.
THIS is the BEST the Democratic Party can do!!
Thats sad,
AND infuriating.
"A Uniquely American Solution"....INDEED!
There is NO EXCUSE for the historic SELL OUT of the American Working Class. :shrug:

Oh wait...
I forgot.
THIS is ALL Joe Lieberman's fault!!!!
:rofl:

[MadHound]

37. Why do some people think that this POS bill is actually reform?

Just because the union leaders are happy with the tax compromise doesn't mean that this is a good bill. It is still a mandated monopoly for the insurance industry, with bonus limiting of women's right to choose and no, count that again, zero public option.

Oh, and that whole pre-existing condition has many large loopholes, large enough to make it a joke.

[freddie mertz]

39. I think some of don't even care about reform.

It's all about the "supporting" the president and "winning," so much so that they can't see the ugly political (and policy) consequences nipping at their heels.

[ProSense]

40. Because there comes a time

when one needs to shit or get off the pot.

As first steps and the legislative process goes, this bill is a fucking gem.




edited typos

[freddie mertz]

41. "A fucking gem"? Which one of the three is this "gem" of which you speak?

The House bill?

The Baucus-Liebeman-Nelson bill from the Senate?

Or the as yet unformed "final version"?

[ProSense]

42. Yes,

despite your mischaracterization.

[freddie mertz]

43. So, whatever passes will be a "fucking gem" to you?

Fascinating.

[ProSense]

44. Yes,

the current bills are both landmark legislation, on par with Social Security or Medicare.

You see, not everyone hates the bill just because it isn't perfect.

[niceypoo]

54. The bills could mandate eating dog poop

...and you would tout its, 'benefits,' while putting on a lobster bib.

[niceypoo]

52. Funny how his bar has gotten lower and lower and lower and lower...

...as the bill has been frogmarched further and further to the right.

Absolute mindlessness

[MadHound]

57. Nice to see you willing to throw women and the middle class under the bus

This bill isn't a gem, it's a disaster. It's a gift to the insurance industry, one that we all will continue to pay for for a long, long time.

[mkultra]

46. because the health industry wants to stop any reform

thus they are hear to disrupt.

[grahamhgreen]

47. Because the majority opposes the Senate bill, duh, and it's not reform, it's a scam. WTF!

[dflprincess]

56. Exactly

we wanted and supported reform that would give us access to health care. We oppose the Insurance Company Profit Protection Act which just reenforces the status quo.

[depakid]

48. LOL -The Unions won a BIG break for themselves!

People are profoundly STUPID if they think allying the party with health insurers, pharma and taxing the middle class while driving them into junk insurance (instead of taxing the wealthy) is going to win them votes!

Tell you what else- this is also going to further even more anti-union resentment, sicne they're getting special exemptions than no one else is getting!

If the Dems pass this travesty- they will DESERVE TO LOSE.

[ProSense]

50. "People are profoundly STUPID if they think"

health care reform is going to be albatross around the Democrats' neck. You are watching history in the making, but continue to hype your doomsday predictions.

[depakid]

53. Some people never ;learn- no matter how blatantly in their face the reality is

Could well be though that through the rapacious appeasement and empowerment of the corporate right- and debasement of key constituencies of the base, the damage is already done.

Could be that the administration and congress already had their chance and blown it.

Let's hope not.

[ProSense]

55. Some people continue to

confuse wishful thinking with reality.

[ClassWarrior]

49. I think most of the progressives who oppose it do so on moral grounds, knowing all too well that...

...it's a political loser.

Why, on the other hand, do some people who support it want to couch everything in terms of politics and turn a deaf ear to the moral implications?

NGU.