Critics of President Obama, health care reform and the rest of his agenda ignore a simple fact

[ProSense]

Some people are deliberately ignoring the fact that President Obama hears the criticism, but simply doesn't agree with them. All one has to do is listen to his speech today.

The amount of people resorting to ridicule as a means of criticism is evidence that these people know that Obama is determined to follow through and get done what he set out to do.

The critics are under the impression that enough ridicule will somehow force Obama to abandon his agenda simply because they don't agree with him or are too impatient to give his policies time to work.

There are many Americans who do agee with the President, and he has the full support of the elected Democrats.


Democrats are in Mass campaigning on health care reform, not running away from it.

[Name removed]

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[dkf]

2. His agenda used to have no mandates and a public option.

I support that agenda just fine.

[Hello_Kitty]

3. There was a time, not long ago, when ProSense supported those same things. eom

[freddie mertz]

74. LOL. I remember that. It was not so long ago, in fact.

Endless spam fests about how so and so said the public option WAS going to be in the final bill, presented as "FACT", rather than the spin or commentary that it was.

Same tactic, different argument.

[Ildem09]

4. I support common sense politics

really drop the Public Option when 70% of the country fucking wanted it? thats just insane. etc etc etc.

[dkf]

5. Seriously why are WE the insane ones for supporting a politically

Popular policy? People insisting on basing healthcare on a private option that is political suicide look insane to me.

[dflprincess]

6. I gnash my teeth whenever I hear them say they didn't "have the votes"

or there wasn't the political will for real reform.

But then I'm a silly liberal who can't accept that our opinions don't count and they won't until we can write checks big enough to get the attention of "our" elected officials.

[Ildem09]

7. totally

and what about gay rights? lol we were thrown under the bus i think first off

[ProSense]

8. Common sense, here is how that works

Votes. If 70 percent of Americans were voting, it would pass.

Seventy percent of Americans need to hold their elected officials accountable.

Do you know where these seventy percent of Americans reside and if their position is public option or bust?

Does any of them reside in Connecticut or Nebraska?

Common sense: votes.

[Ildem09]

9. well yes

CT 63% supported the PO in Nebraska some 51-52% supported. IT was lack of will on the administration to stand up to big corporations

[ProSense]

10. "CT 63% supported the PO "

Vote: Lieberman.

[Ildem09]

12. and look at libermans polls

he is tanking among CT voters. there were 20 different ways they could have dealt with health care. they handicapped themselves. from the start.

Let me ask you what policies make you a Democrat. rather than an Obamacrat

[ProSense]

13. Do you think he cares or is worried?

He has a vote for the next four years.

[Ildem09]

15. damn it seems

like you only want moderate policies. you don't want us to strive for issues that the party has stood for for nearly 50 years. you want us to settle

[ProSense]

16. Nonsense.

This has nothing to do with me.

[Name removed]

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[ProSense]

19. No, it doesn't. You are simply trying to distract. n/t

[Ildem09]

21. distract from what?

your constant cheer leading? imagine if Obama had been LBJ and had said we have to wait on the civil rights act or what sort of compromised bullshit that would come out of that.

[ProSense]

23. I thought you were clever. n/t

[Ildem09]

25. i'm an activist

i do what i can for the policies i support

[ProSense]

26. Has nothing to do with the OP. n/t

[Ildem09]

30. ok I am criticizing obama

not because i don't like him i do. i just don't agree with him. and apparently a lot of us feel the same way.

[Hello_Kitty]

70. He claimed he supported the PO back then. eom

[Hello_Kitty]

69. Voters are who they poll. eom

[treestar]

67. The Senate can prevent a majority from getting what they want

End of story. It was set up to be like that.

It really appears to be working here.

[slipslidingaway]

11. President Obama disagrees with Candidate Obama ...

the people liked "enough is enough" and negotiating for bulk drug prices. People criticizing him on this are not asking that he abandon his agenda, they are asking him to follow through on this part of his plan. He called out others during the campaign and said "that is not who we are ... it is time for us to change."

Candidate Obama ...

"And we are tired of watching as year after year, candidates offer up detailed health care plans with great fanfare and promise only to see them crushed under the weight of Washington politics and drug and insurance lobbying once the campaign is over.

That is not who we are, that is not who we have to be, enough is enough, it time for us to change."


Links and video ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=420430&mesg_id=420457

This part is from the 4:55 mark so the detailed plan by the candidate that could save up to 300 billion was replaced by a deal with the lobbyist Tauzin for 80 billion. The study referenced in the Obama plan may or may not account for the increased enrollment by the baby boomers, 46 million to 79 million over the next twenty years.

Tauzin got a good deal IMO, Medicare and seniors not so much.


From the Obama/Biden HC plan ----

"...Barack Obama and Joe Biden will repeal the ban on direct negotiation with drug companies and use the resulting savings, which could be as high as $30 billion (per year),33 to further invest in improving health care coverage and quality."


Obama's $80 Billion Deal with Pharma Is a Very Bad Deal for Us
By William Greider

[ProSense]

14. Irrelevant. Got a comment about the OP?

Does anyone?

[slipslidingaway]

17. It is relevant to the OP, try reading it again. n/t

[ProSense]

20. Not relevant. As much as you'd like him to be,

President Obama isn't competing with himself. He's trying to run a country.

[Ildem09]

22. then how did he manage

to piss off the left, the right and the independents all at the same time?

[ProSense]

24. by doing what he thinks is right? Seriously,

read the OP again, and think about your comment.

[Ildem09]

28. no one is arguing that he cant give a good speech

but if he pisses off the left, the right and independents then who is left, there aren't enough of you to win elections. I supported Obama I was in Grant Park in November I had high hope but when he sold out my community and health care etc

[ProSense]

35. The point of citing the speech wasn't to solicit a rating. n/t

[slipslidingaway]

46. Did you write these words in the OP or was that someone else ....

"Critics of President Obama, health care reform and the rest of his agenda ignore a simple fact ... Some people are deliberately ignoring the fact that President Obama hears the criticism, but simply doesn't agree with them. All one has to do is listen to his speech today.

The amount of people resorting to ridicule as a means of criticism is evidence that these people know that Obama is determined to follow through and get done what he set out to do.

The critics are under the impression that enough ridicule will somehow force Obama to abandon his agenda simply because they don't agree with him or are too impatient to give his policies time to work..."


My reply and relevant to what was posted by the original poster ... whoever that person might be, because I wonder if you even read what you post half the time.


...the people liked "enough is enough" and negotiating for bulk drug prices. People criticizing him on this are not asking that he abandon his agenda, they are asking him to follow through on this part of his plan. He called out others during the campaign and said "that is not who we are ... it is time for us to change.

And obviously President Obama does not agree with Candidate Obama who said that he was tired of people abandoning their plans once they arrived in Washington, then went ahead and did the same thing.

[ProSense]

51. Again, not relevant. Maybe you need to

familiarize yourself with the President's agenda.

He's not campaigning. He's running a country. You do realize that there is a difference. don't you?

[slipslidingaway]

57. So someone else wrote these words...

"...Some people are deliberately ignoring the fact that President Obama hears the criticism, but simply doesn't agree with them..."

And President Obama disagrees with the Candidate Obama who said "Enough is Enough"
about abandoning their HC plans when they get to DC.


Candidate Obama ...

"And we are tired of watching as year after year, candidates offer up detailed health care plans with great fanfare and promise only to see them crushed under the weight of Washington politics and drug and insurance lobbying once the campaign is over.

That is not who we are, that is not who we have to be, enough is enough, it time for us to change."

You can continue to say that it is not relevant, but IMO it is.

[slipslidingaway]

82. Crickets again n/t

[jgraz]

34. You don't get it. Anything that proves ProSense wrong is irrelevant

In other words, just about everything.

[slipslidingaway]

50. Very true ... the twisting and spinning could drive one crazy. :) n/t

[dgibby]

73. Why anyone would waste time trying to debate a BOG denizen is beyond me.

The agenda is clear, and like all true believers, there is absoutely no room for debate or a difference of opinion. Trying to engage in legitimate debate is like trying to discuss religion with a zealot. I'd sooner beat my head against a brick wall. Much less painful, and not nearly as frustrating.

[Ildem09]

32. we do

were pointing out the fallacy between how obama campaigned and how he has governed

[ProSense]

36. Then start another thread because that isn't relevant to the OP. n/t

[xchrom]

27. Is the crticism or the goals?

We having nothing resembling healthcare reform -- we are getting a government/corporate marriage.


We aren't getting a mainstreet economic policy - we continue to get corporate give sways on tax payer dimes.

I agree Obama doesn't care.

[ProSense]

31. "I agree Obama doesn't care."

"Democrats don't care"

"Bernie Sanders doesn't care"

"The unions don't care"

"Anyone who believes the health bill is reform doesn't"


Maybe there are a lot of people, including the President, who don't agree with you that the bill isn't reform.

[donheld]

29. Critics of President Obama know very well

he can do no wrong in your eyes. If he too slept with Tiger Woods, you'd find a way to excuse it.

[ProSense]

33. "If he too slept with Tiger Woods, you'd find a way to excuse it."

Stupid.

[Ildem09]

38. no the point is

your blind support of Obama is daft. you would have criticized any republican for acting the way you are

[ProSense]

40. No, the point is that you have nothing so you're trying to make this about me.

Nothing.

[Ildem09]

43. if only you were

a Democrat instead of an Obamacrat. I worked my ass off for Obama, however, he has not lived up to what he sold. he jaunted to the centre after the election and succeeded in pissing off the left the right and the independents, so how are things going to turn out in 2010 with a demoralized left an energized right and a pissed off independent?

[ProSense]

45. "a Democrat instead of an Obamacrat."

More silly name calling.

[Ildem09]

48. ok

i apologize for the name calling. if you want to engage in a meaningful policy discussion about how i think the Obama administration and Democratic leadership has faltered, and how you see their shining unadulterated success I am eager and willing. I've worked on several campaigns and have 2 degrees in political science. we can frame the debate in decent form and have substantive discussion

[suzie]

62. Do you mean the "discussion" that started before the inauguration last year

which stated that Obama was already a failure, even before he took the oath of office?

Because that's when the people who scour the internet every day looking for negative articles to post about Obama, started their "policy discussion" of the failure of the Obama administration.

[Ildem09]

64. I'm a Political Scientist

i have no interest other than policy, I don't care about the person or the passion. Input and output

[suzie]

68. Then you understand as little about politics as most political scientists.

Because there is no separation of policy from person or passion.

[Ildem09]

86. sure there is

you can quantify people as X number of voters in aggregate. you can quantify and measure passion as x amount of support for person or policy y. then using OLS regression you can see the strength of the relationships. people are very predictable. thusly lend themselves to observation

[donheld]

39. But true

[ProSense]

41. No

just stupid.

[UrbScotty]

37. Rec'd (even if others don't want me to!)

[Hekate]

42. Also Rec'd

[slipslidingaway]

53. I gave it a rec as well :))) n/t

[Better Today]

52. "and he has the full support of the elected Democrats" - this is just BS

There have been some out there getting quite annoyed with Obama supporting the Senate bill. I believe even Pelosi took a swipe at him at week or so ago.

[ProSense]

54. Really?

Pelosi: "we would not be at this historic moment without the leadership of President Obama"

[Ildem09]

55. she also said

hahah yeah he (obama) promised a lot of things on the campaign.


look we support the president, however we align ourselves with Howard Dean, Anthony Weiner, Russ Fiengold, Al Franken, etc etc people who realize we can and must do better

[ProSense]

59. You do realize that

Pelosi's comment was snark aimed at the media, don't you?

[Ildem09]

60. well yes

however, it is still apt, he promised a lot that he didn't deliver on certainly on health care reform

[amborin]

56. give HCR "time to work" LOL! time to wallop more & more of the middle class with excise tax and

harm California's managed care programs, etc.........

and, otherwise, i'm sure Obama has full support of corporatists and "many Americans who do agree with the President," such as the health insurance corporations, big banksters, etc.......

[Ildem09]

58. lol

i knew something was up when he had rick warren give the inaugural prayer ooh someday I'll be an equal person. some day. thought given the obamacrats policy choices gay rights might never see the light of day

[ProSense]

61. "thought given the obamacrats "

Can't help yourself, huh?

[Ildem09]

63. i'm just pissed

Democrats got behind the civil rights movement. but not the gay rights one?

[Skittles]

65. OMG not another fucking speech

[TheKentuckian]

66. Why are you bragging about a leader that has nothing but a deaf ear for his people?

and if he had the full support of the caucus then he just ANTS to feed the people into a criminal for profit cartel rather than was forced to in order to get the elusive "half a loaf" to help millions and blah blah blah. Thats nothing to be proud of.

[ProSense]

78. Why are you confusing disagreeing with not hearing?

Do you think the President has to agree with everything from everyone?

Isn't it up to him to determine if the criticism is valid?

The problem with some of those who can find nothing good in what the administration does is that they believe their voices are the only ones he should hear.

[last1standing]

71. Fair enough. Now explain why progressives should vote for a candidate who doesn't agree with them.

I know you can post the same old things like "say hello to president Palin" or "don't let the door split ya..." but can you explain why progressives should continue to vote for a president or party that explicitly disregards their political views?

If our choice is between going right wing or very right wing, why wouldn't we try to bolster up a new left wing?

[ProSense]

79. Where in the OP does it say anything about who you or anyone else should vote for? n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

72. An elected official who ignores both his own platform as

candidate and the criticism of his supporters is a fool. That simple. And if he's not listening, if he is not moved, then why do you need to make a stink about it. Being serene and above it means just that. Shouting that you are not bothered is silly. If you were not bothered, you'd not be whining about the criticism you don't like.
Such as the fact that the President is slated to pray in public with the author of the Ugandan genocide law. A vile action from the faith based crowd. I am sure you will join that prayer.

[booley]

75. sorry, maybe I didn't understand what an election was

Didn't we vote for Obama to Represent us?

[ProSense]

81. Are you suggesting that he

is President of the Obama Critics of the United States?

[booley]

84. Depends. Are you suggesting...

..... that anyone who says anything negative about Obama isn't a "Real American"?

Because funny, I thought I heard that line before used for the critics of this other guy who used to be in that office.

[ProSense]

85. Someone who is of the "United States" isn't of the United States? n/t

[booley]

87. Ahh, hiding behind word play

No wonder people tire of you quickly.

That's NOT what you implied. And for all your cute little snarky sound bites you know it.

Obama is supposed to represent the People of the US, not just those who will approve of him blindly.

Or did you "forget" that people were explaining that same thing to Bushies who were accusing people of "Bush Hatred"?

There are people who criticize Obama because he's Obama. But not every person falls into that camp.

Unfortunately you don't seem interested in understanding the difference between the two. In fact you don't seem interested in debate nor dialogue or anything besides attacking people (kinda ironic considering)

So why are you here?

[freddie mertz]

76. "The Emperor is wearing clothes! I swear I can see them!"

Sorry ProSense, but it is a thousand times too many from you.

[Jakes Progress]

77. No, we get it.

He hears us and just doesn't care what we think. He doesn't want our votes, our money, or our work. He has plans to put millions of ex-conservatives doing the campaign work we all did last year.

We get it. It's nice that someone so close to the party central is willing to tell us how unnecessary we are to DLC plans. We can plan accordingly. Thank you.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

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[donco6]

83. Many Americans agree . . . they just don't live in MA, I guess.

Oh well, there's always next time. No need for changes here.

[booley]

88. BTW, a simple fact that I think got ignored

"Obama is determined to follow through and get done what he set out to do."

Except what Obama said he planned to do and what he is actually doing seem to be increasingly different as time goes by.

That's kind of part of the problem. In fact that is a very large part of the problem.