Here's a primer on the loss from a MA resident

[inthebrain]

Take with it what you will. Basicly the Democrats here are falling apart and have been for a while. Mitt Romney was voted out of here for numerous reasons. One of those being his healthcare plan (which is the same as Obama's) which passed with help from the Dems in the state senate. The other was because of his assault on government workers (DMR, DMH, MassPort, etc) and the fact that he laid them off in droves. This has continued under Patrick.

With Coakley backing Obama's HCR (which is the same as Romney's) the voters found themselves with no where to turn on this issue. The same plan which passed here has been a mess. The cost of care has skyrocketted and now the local hospitals are laying off nurses and healthcare workers. THis is the plan that mandates folks to purchase private health insurance. Couple that with the fact that in this race, Brown also was the defender of Medicare as the Obama plan does feature cuts to that program.

Voters on this issue were left with nowhere to turn.

Locally Deval Patrick has not differentiated himself from the guy he replaced (Romney) all that much. As I mentioned above, he's been laying off Government workers en masse. In a racession this is the last time you wanna lay off government workers.

On the wars the Democrats have done a bad job ending them. Statewide everyone wants the war Iraq to end and many are not happy with the war in Afghanistan. Remember, the Democrats won big these last few cycle RUNNING AGAINST THE IRAQ war.

Voters on that issue had no where to turn.

This is really what happens when the party that supposed to represent the workers just fail to do it. Lots of people here have been keeping an eye on the Bank Bonuses which have been through the roof. Whether or not Obama's paltry Bank Tax had much of an impact is hard to tell. Many of the voters that are aware of it that I have spoken to regard it as a joke. The bank tax will raise less money in ten than what the Banks are handing out this year.

The Democrats as a whole took this state for granted, ran a weak candidate, ran an even worse campaign and in the minds of the voters have been allowed to run on FDRs legacey without doing anything to back it up. Folks are hurting all over the state and it's gotten ugly everywhere.

The voters really had no where to turn.

[scheming daemons]

1. "the voters really had no where to turn"

So they turned to a teabagger?

Really?



Bullshit.

[ProSense]

3. .

:rofl:

[villager]

4. Apparently, not bullshit, inasmuch as the faux-populist teabagger won.

n/t

[inthebrain]

5. They don't see him as a tea bagger

Lots of em probably have no idea what that is and have never seen one.

The tea baggers don't have a very big presence here at all. I think they had a hard time getting 100 of em to a really here a few months back.

Tea Bagger doesn't resonate here.

It really was hard for many of em to differentiate between who the Dem or Rep was. Like I said, Brown was the candidate defending medicare. It was really fucked up.

[Mimosa]

9. People who live in Mass don't know anything? n/t

[inthebrain]

12. Or you could blame this party for getting too close to Wall Street

Fact of the matter is that it's been running on the legacy of FDR as a reformist party and has not delivered. That locally here and on the federal level.

That allowed Scott Brown to come in here and reek havok.

The guy across the street from me always has signs out with the name of Democratic Candiates.

What signs does he have out today? Four of em with Scott Brown's name on it.

[Mimosa]

13. I totally agree!!!

Both parties candidates are in bed with the bankers. Don't we all know it yet?

[JVS]

2. Jesus. It sounds like Malaise 2.0

[sandnsea]

6. Brown defended Medicare, jeesh

because Obama is going to cut the program.

When everybody lies, there's nowhere to turn. That's true.

And the bank tax is to recover the balance the banks owe. If Obama regulated the banks, these same Republicans would be horrified and you'd concoct another scenario to excuse their vote.

[inthebrain]

10. 90billion over ten years is gonna recover what they owe?

At that rate it would take over a century to get it back.

You really are not listening and I doubt you have any idea what's going on in this state.

[sandnsea]

16. The banks owe $114 billion

The tax will go for ten years or until the $114 billion is repaid.

They repaid the rest.

The problem is that it doesn't get reported, or it gets distorted the way you distorted Medicare. On the one hand, you're pissed about giving money to private insurance. On the other hand, when they want to limit unnecessary Medicare payments to private insurance, you buy into the rightwing bullshit that it's a Medicare cut.

I know what's going on in Mass, mostly it's buried rightwing resentment at 47 years of Ted Kennedy and a chance for some payback. On top of that, some Democratic Party infighting and corruption problems, and then on top of that the economy and lack of message consistency on Dem policies.

I can't do anything about what's going on in Mass, I can try to do something about this constant circular firing squad.

[inthebrain]

18. The banks owe 1.7 trillion dollars.

Medicare Payments do not go to private insurance.

Medicare can not negotiate with Pharmaceutical Companies for a better price. I think that's what you are getting at. Cutting the funding to Medicare is not going to solve that problem. THat's just stupid.

It's called a Medicare Cut and it ain't just the right that's aware of it. So have the progressives, socialists, anarchists as well as many liberals. The right may be exploting it disengenously but man!!!! They really can get your knee to jerk the way they want it.

[sandnsea]

20. No they don't

TARP was about $700 billion, most is paid back.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/01/obama-to-announce-bank-fees-to-recoup-tarp-losses.html

And yes Medicare Advantage goes to private insurance. They are looking to change that reimbursement process, which Republicans are calling a cut. They are also calling the reductions in doctor payments, some through the new bundling, cuts. And they traded the negotiated rate for closing the doughnut hole, and Republicans (and you) are also calling that a cut.

And what do they say when they're not complaining about the so-called "cuts" - well they're saying the legislation doesn't cut health care costs enough. Hmmm. So when they reduce costs, it's a harmful cut; but when they don't cut costs enough, it's big liberal spending.

And who is getting their knee jerked every which direction? Not me buster.

[inthebrain]

21. Medicare Advantage and Medicare are two seperate things

And Medicare Advantage IS OPTIONAL!!!! If the insurer offers worse coverage than what the government offers the enrollee doesn't have to enroll. Also, the rate is not adjusted by the insurance company. There's a set rate set by the government and they enrollee may have to pay more.

It's prescription drug coverage part of that plan. where medicare can not negotiate with the pharmaceutical companies, that costs the government. And Obama's solution is to cut medicare which is punishing the patient more than anything else. Not smart and not a good jon of turd polishing on your part.

And Obama's HealthCare play WHICH WILL MANDATE everyone to but private health insurance IS MUCH WORSE THAN MEDICARE ADVANTAGE!!!!!

Yeah, who's knee is really gettin jerked. It ain't mine.

[sandnsea]

23. Obama is not cutting Medicare

I don't know where or why you got that into your head, but it is simply untrue.

Medicare Advantage is an HMO option where Medicare pays a flat fee instead of fee for service. You want the govt to negotiate for prescription prices, but when they do it with Medicare Advantage - you buy into the bogus charge that it's a cut.

So would you let the left and right bamboozle you into calling cost reductions from pharmaceutical negotiations - a cut??? Because I guarantee you that's what the right would do.

And in fact, as part of closing the doughnut hole, the House did include medicare negotiated drug prices.

Instead of ripping apart the Senate Bill - why didn't the left glom onto the House bill and run massive ads rallying the country around it. That's how you win elections in this country.

[inthebrain]

24. I'm not bamboozled at all

It is a cut to medicare.

The right is certainly jerking your chain and not mine. Especially if you think that 500 billion in cuts to medicare is just about Medicare Advantage. Oh, and Obama really is punishing those insurance companies and taking em to task by attempting to pass legislation that would force us to purchase private insurance. The Pharmaceutical companies are not the ones that are gonna suffer from this.

And if you're really talkin about the left, as in THE left, there is no real left in government. THe closest you got is Kooch and Bernie Sanders, no longer the socialist he used to be, is a distant second. Other than that, you got no left in government today. YOu don't even have the progressive reformists.

Find me where EV Debs or even FDR exists in this party today. Not gonna find em.

[sandnsea]

26. If you won't believe the truth

about this health care bill, there's no way we're going to convince a Republican of the truth. We have to reduce costs in Medicare, or it's going to go bankrupt. That's just a fact. Even Kucinich and Sanders know that.

But the reason you don't believe the truth is because you're on an ideological rampage based on some utopian fantasy that never existed and never will. How many countries have elected the further right, pro-war, candidate in the last ten years? Not just us.

FDR?

Here's a reprint of a 1935 article from The Nation. Read it.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/presidents/32_f_roosevelt/psources/ps_bizofrelief.html

[inthebrain]

28. What Utopian fantasy is it that you speak of

I have none.

I do see you steeped in Capitalist Jingoistic BS.

Now you're admitting that Obama is proposing cuts in Medicare. Also the Republican claim that it's going Bankrupt.

What happened to the left in the government.

Or that all the cuts are to medicare advantage.

But hey, we have to cut Medicare because that's going bankrupt but we have to increase Military spending. Well, this is why you just lost MA. To busy dancing with Republicans and pandering for their votes. You lost the left today and the party has lurched to the right. So much so that the voters in MA have a hard time telling either party apart.

But I'm on the idealogical rampage while you are capitualating to the far radical right.

[inthebrain]

29. SandNsea

Just wanted to mention.

If you notice, though out this converation I am actually attacking your position from the left. You are responding with attacks that are directly from the right.

The right wing does not jerk my knee at all. In this conversation it does jerk yours.

Just wanted to point that out as I don't think you've noticed that.

[sandnsea]

31. No, you're using attacks directly from the right

I posted them for you.

Obama cutting Medicare is a direct attack concocted by the right. Bailing out the banks is an attack from the right. Poopooing the bank tax and saying it's going to be passed on to consumers is from the right.

You may have read this shit on FDL, but trust me, they were all coming from the right over the summer.

[inthebrain]

33. You don't know your right from your left

You're the one claiming that Medicare is going Bankrupt. Something the right has claimed for years.

You're also claiming that attacking the Bank Bailout is an attack from the right. It is not. The Bank Bailout is a very right wing, trickle down economic policy.

What the fuck is FDL?

And where have I even mentioned anything about the bank tax being passed on to consumers? I'm claiming the Bank Tax is a joke and a pittance. Your response was to claim that the 700 billion in TARP funds were the entirety of the bail out. WRONG!!!!

[sandnsea]

34. Wow.

Medicare IS going bankrupt and so is Social Security. The campaign a few years ago, there is no crisis - POLITICS. There's no immediate crisis, but there's a definite problem, especially with this recession. The reason Pelosi did that campaign was to prevent Bush from privatizing it and it worked. Unfortunately, some on the left don't understand that it was just a political campaign, so they keep repeating no crisis, no crisis. Doesn't make it true.

The Bank Bailout was supported by anybody with a brain, frankly, left, right, up, down. In my experience, out in the real world of voters, the right was more opposed to it than the left. It is also not a trickle down anything. It was a direct infusion of money into banks so the global economy didn't collapse. Imagine the local banks in your own town, with no national bank chains. Everybody's money in your town is in 3 banks. For 5 years they all get the wild idea to invest in grapes. They lie and say the grapes are gold and sell securities. They go wild. And then bam, somebody discovers the lie and caplow, they lose everything. All the money in your town is gone. If somebody came into town and loaned one bank money, provided they took all the accounts of the other two banks, in order to make one strong bank, wouldn't you say your town better demand the bank take that deal?

I said the bank tax was to pay back the TARP money, and it is. I explained the other funds you mentioned below.

I don't know what you're reading, maybe not Firedoglake, but you're reading something that isn't giving you all the information.

[inthebrain]

35. So the left is in bed with Pelosi?

My god!!!

The Bank Bailout was not supported by the left. The left wanted to NATIONALIZE the banks as well as GM.

[sandnsea]

36. You don't remember that campaign?

Where did you get the idea that Social Security and Medicare had no problems then?

Yes, it is true some on the very far left wanted to nationalize banks, but honestly I don't even take that faction seriously enough to respond to. There weren't near as many of them as there were rightwingers freaking out.

[inthebrain]

37. I'm not saying that I don't remember it

I never even followed it.

But your idea that the left would even trust anything Pelosi says is complete out of left field.

And actually no, it wasn't JUST the very far left that wanted to nationalize the banks (Many of those on that far left plank that you don't listen to reside here in MA. Howard Zinn is a well respected here and thoroughly read) and GM. Whether you listen to them or no is besides the point. They are the left.

[sandnsea]

38. The left helped Pelois on that campaign

If the blogs hadn't gotten involved, it would never have succeeded.

Yes, Howard Zinn, very far left.

[inthebrain]

40. They may have helped her that does not mean that they trust or

take her seriously. Medicare and Social Security have issues. They are not going Bankrupt as their function is not to turn a profit. They are government programs. By that account every single government program is Bankrupt right now and always has been.

Take a message from this election and this is a very hard lesson for you to learn. That far left you ignore is the one that has carried this party and gotten it this far. Ignoring it and further capitualating to the right leads you to losses like you had tonight.

The left stayed home.

This is from a "Far Left" source. Deny the accuracy of this all you like but it's a fact. The left stayed home cause the party has lueched right.


-----------

In the 2008 election, Obama received 1,891,083 votes in Massachusetts compared to 1,104,284 for his Republican opponent, John McCain. Brown appears likely, when all votes are counted, to match or actually exceed McCain’s total, while Coakley’s vote represents a dropoff of about 50 percent from Obama’s total 14 months ago.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jan2010/mass-j20.shtml

Oh, and you have no worries about Brown not voting for HCR. He actually did vote for the turkey legislation we have in this vote and will likely vote for Obama's privatization scheme that is his HCR. Nevermind that it is MUCH worse than what we got in this state.

[sandnsea]

41. SS & Medicare have dedicated funding

They are not like other govt programs whose budget is set by Congress and then the agency has to decide what to do with the money. SS & Medicare have to be paid, the tax money is supposed to be there to pay for them. It's not. That's bankrupt. If you have to turn a profit to go bankrupt, then I guess families can't go bankrupt either.

I read a Kos diary that said there was no local Dem state support and no Dem GOTV for Coakley. I don't know why, but that matches the numbers you've got there.

We all know how much the left affects the Dem Party with the Nader votes in 2000. What, about 3%?

[inthebrain]

42. You're debt has to excede your income (profit)

Medicare and SS do not earn a profit and are not supposed to.

YOu read KOs, a guy who's an out Reaganite, and wanna bash what I read?

MAN!!!!

As far as how much it effects the party. Try about a 50% voter drop off for Coakley tonight following Obama's election win. They didn't show up.

[sandnsea]

44. Income is not profit, it's just income

And when debt is greater than income, bankrupt. No profit involved.

I don't read Markos actually, I find him to be an insufferable egomaniac. It was a diary at the site. I had read a few other Mass folks say the biggest problem is internal problems, and a few corruption charges over the last few years.

[inthebrain]

45. You really are having a hard time matching your ideals to reality tonight

not to mention comprehending what you are reading.

I'll put it in short form for you.

The party has lurched to the right. The voters of MA, traditionally a very left leaning state, has recognized this. Coakley had a 50% drop off in turnout from the presidential election while Brown matched the Republican turnout from the presidential election. THE LEFT STAYED HOME.

You ignored them, you wanted them out of the party, you refuse to acknowledge, the party wants the same thing.

You reap what you sow. This party has no one to blame but itself for the loss. You're not going to win shitting on the people who brought you this far. That also is a fact.

[sandnsea]

46. That's your ideology speaking

You have absolutely not a shred of evidence for that. There's a poll that says 22% of Democrats voted for Brown. That's not the left. There was no GOTV which is usually necessary in minority communities because of transportation and other issues. And there is still huge support for Obama. This really isn't a referendum against Obama's policies as much as it is filling a vacuum that Coakley left wide open.

[inthebrain]

47. I have the voter turnout

It's plain as day.

It ain't my ideology.

It's the facts and I have the numbers to back that up.

[sandnsea]

48. Here are the numbers

Of why people voted the way they did. Nobody wants to move left.


· 78% of Brown voters Strongly Oppose the health care legislation before Congress.

· 52% of Coakley supporters Strongly Favor the health care plan. Another 41% Somewhat Favor the legislation.

· 61% of Brown voters say deficit reduction is more important than health care reform.

· 46% of Coakley voters say health care legislation more important than deficit reduction.

· 86% of Coakley voters say it’s better to pass the bill before Congress rather than nothing at all.

· 88% of Brown voters say it’s better to pass nothing at all.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections2/election_2010/election_2010_senate_elections/massachusetts/brown_wins_stunning_victory_in_massachusetts

[inthebrain]

27. Another thing, the total of the Medicare cuts is 500 Billion

142 Billion of that is to Medicare Advantge.

So all of it is not to Medicare Advantage.

[sandnsea]

32. Some is closing the doughnut hole

In part through medicare prescription drug negotiation. Some is changing doctor payment procedures, including going to bundling. Some is reductions due to savings in implementing digital records.

They're good things that the right lied about and that desperate lefties like Jane Hamsher picked up and attacked with.

I'm telling you the truth.

[inthebrain]

25. And the TARP was just one portion of the Bailout not the entire thing

This is what else they got. And this doesn't cover everything.
----------------------------
It ain't cheap
If there's one thing I agree with Morgan about is that assigning this bailout a "$700 billion" price tag is a misnomer. We'll be lucky if that's the final tab.

Let's not forget the $29 billion taxpayers are spending backing Bears Stearns portfolio so that JPMorgan Chase (NYSE: JPM) wouldn't have to shoulder any risk, or the $200 billion given to Fannie Mae (NYSE: FNM) and Freddie Mac (NYSE: FRE). Let's also add in the $140 billion tax giveaway to banks like Wells Fargo (NYSE: WFC) to buy distressed rivals; the triple dip for American International Group (NYSE: AIG) totaling about $150 billion; the Fed holding more than $226 billion for the commercial paper market; the FHA's $300 billion Hope for Homeowners program; and $540 billion in loans for money markets funds

http://www.fool.com/investing/dividends-income/2008/11/19/the-trillion-dollar-bailout.aspx

[sandnsea]

30. That's being repaid in other ways

For instance, the commmercial paper loans with interest.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/press/monetary/20081007c.htm

Bear Stearns is being liquidated.
http://www.maidenlanellc.com/
Payments by Maiden Lane LLC from the proceeds of the net portfolio holdings will be made in the following order: operating expenses of the LLC, principal due to the FRBNY, interest due to the FRBNY, principal due to JPMorgan Chase & Co., and interest due to JPMorgan Chase & Co. Any remaining funds will be paid to the FRBNY.

AIG was TARP money, as were the mortgage programs.

Quite often when you dig, you find that there's not much truth in anything that's reported, anywhere.

[JoeyT]

43. Well sort of.

"They repaid the rest."

You left out the part about "After we cut their taxes to a ridiculous degree so they could pay it back for free."

[ProSense]

7. Don't know, but this account seems a hell of a lot more

plausible.

[inthebrain]

14. After the primaries nobody cares what the primary voters think

It had nothing to do with who was from Western MA or Boston.

Scott Brown ain't from Boston either. He's from Wrentham.

There's a lot of factors, in a nutshell, in this election you could not tell the Republican apart from the Democrat. Scott Brown actually defended medicare. Coakley backed a healthcare plan by Obama that's the same as Romney's (The guy we kicked out of here).

[ProSense]

15. "Scott Brown actually defended medicare."

Right there you're proving Mass voters got suckered.

[inthebrain]

17. I don't think anyone really expects him to defend it

I'm not saying he will.

But to deny that Obama's HCR also features a half billion dollars in cuts to medicare...well.....I don't know what to tell you. That's not just from right wing sources (who are using it as a campaign tool but with no real plans to defend it) but from left wing indie sources, liberal economists and even the MSM. That's just a fact.

Also, Obama's HCR is the same thing Romney passed. You think people can tell the difference between Coakley and Romney when she backs Obama's bill which is the same thing? If you also think people in MA like the healthcare plan here you should take a look at this election. It was a central feature of it.

You're not seeing this election through the eyes of the people in this state.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[inthebrain]

11. You mean the same state THAT OVERWHELMINGLY VOTED FOR HIM?

Same with Patrick!!!!

Nice try.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[inna]

22. KR.

Very interesting post/thread, thanks for your insights.

[Mopar151]

39. The NH take (My opinion only)

Sometimes it's hard to see from close up - But MA politics are SO screwed that they A) Stain anyone who touches them B)have patronage and corruption at their very core. C) Are byzantine in their complexity, and thick with "Comissions" and "Authoutities", particularly in the Boston area.
Sad to say, a lot of those beaureaucrats needed to be laid off - Many did very little work visible to the taxpayer, and drew fat paychecks. Far too many have been caught working another job during their working hours, and similar shenannigans.
And most of eastern MA is anything but solid blue. The whole jeering, booing, bandwagon riding sports jerk thing has been big in Beantown for decades, and gets downright malignant at times (ref. Bill Buckner), and has carried right over to talk radio and the local Faux affiliate, who can't even report the weather without spin. Beantown is mean racist, and the white ghettos are nastier than the black ones, in a lot of ways - Southie, Charlestown, and Eastie ain't good places to be. And then there's Brockton....
Finally - I have family and friends aplenty in MA, and I am appaled at how poorly educated they are. Not in degrees, but in depth - history, civics, logic, critical thinking, and basic science seem to be missing almost entirely in many that I talk to.

[OneBlueSky]

49. "most of eastern MA is anything but solid blue" . . .

got that right . . . I lived in Amesbury for 15 years, and I can tell you that there are a LOT of Republicans and conservative Democrats in the North Shore area . . . couple that with Obama's failure to a) end the wars, and b) produce a healthcare package with a strong public option (e.g. opening Medicare to everyone) rather than a mandate to by lousy insurance policies from companies who are in the healthcare field ONLY to reap some of the billions that flow through it . . . they have no interest in healthcare per se, and people know it . . . people also don't like being told what to buy, and from whom . . .

so a lot of this is on Obama's shoulders . . . the bottom line is people were expecting change, and they got more of the same . . .

[Heywood J]

54. Unfortunately, this is quite true.

I often got the feeling that Kennedy was more popular outside the state than he was inside it.

[Clio the Leo]

50. the funny part is that the current health bills before Congress are actually more conservative...

.... than what Mass has.

And yet Brown supports what Mass has .... while opposing the bills before Congress.

The man has the political spine of a gummy worm.

I thought this article was very interesting...
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/01/the_only_thing_democrats_need.html

[LiberalFighter]

51. How could Romney be voted out when he didn't run for re-election?

[Heywood J]

52. His hand-picked successor was defeated.

It was about as close as he could get for running again, while still devoting himself to running for the Presidency. Come to think of it, he spent the last half of his term elsewhere, running for the Presidency...

[Jakes Progress]

53. People here aren't going to listen.

They are grinding their axes with whatever grit they can glean from this news. They will twist it any way they can.

The OP sounds like what really happens in the real world. Here in DU land the "haters" and the "apologists" just keep punting the ball back and forth on fourth down and no one makes it to the goal.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

55. Yeah, it's like the DLC apologists don't want to be confused with facts

They have their talking points.

You know, the OP makes Massachusetts sound a lot like Oregon, which has a reputation for being "liberal" but actually has a very complex political make-up with a strong Libertarian streak, a highly secularized population, and an extreme urban-rural divide.

[Jakes Progress]

56. We can't go having any of that "complex" stuff.

It just confuses the players.