Why do middle-class conservatives support their own destruction?

[Armstead]

Seriously.

I can understand being a conservative if you're wealthy.

But why the fuck does someone who is middle/working class support politicians and an ideology that is contrary to their interests?

Logic would indicate they would want to have rights as workers and consumers and citizens. One would assume that they would not want to see the nation's wealth moving upward, and farther out of their reach. One would think they would want to pay less for healthcare and not be subjected to denials by greedy insurance companies.

Taxes? Well nobody likes taxes, including liberals. But they are needed for the public services we all use.

I do have conservative friends, and I've tried to probe this. But I run into a brick wall that boils down to "I don't like liberals or democrats." No other logic.

[valerief]

1. There is no logic. They're angry and RW media gives them someone to hate.

Thinking is too hard. They don't know where to look for info or who to believe, so they consume the quickest, easiest answers. They can't see the forest for the trees.

[Cosmocat]

68. YEARS and YEARS of ...

really nasty people developing WELL worn talking points blasted relentlessly on AM radio and passively in the MSM ...

there are those people who know how to get to the negative heartstones of people for political reasons, and they have bundled these things into the conservative package, and there is a NEVER ending stream of people who actually believe the crape or who are willing to spew it to run for office, nationally, at the state level and locally ...

This didn't happen over night ...

[fujiyama]

2. Thinking is hard

It takes time and effort. And discourse that brings no immediate pleasure or monetary benefit seems like a waste of time to people who have to work long hours to buy groceries and keep a roof over their and their family's head.

It's easier to get home, crack open a beer, and hear some rich guy tell you how you too can be like him (the popularity of CNBC and Fox News) - and the way to do that is vote like him and think like him. It's kind of amazing how well it has worked, but it has for the last thirty years especially in this country.

[grillo7]

14. That sounds harsh, but it's true...

I grew up in red states and I've seen it over and over again, but it goes beyond that even. Many also have some sort of aversion to facts, or reality. Whatever they believe about dirty liberals or Kenyan presidents or massive tax hikes are unassailable to any kind of simple logic.

[Catshrink]

108. They're also authoritarian

and want a Daddy to tell them what to do. I see it in my sister -- she's never thought for herself on big issues and wants someone else to do it for her. Rush digests the news and feeds it to her in a simplistic way she can understand. She's not stupid, just dependent and would rather be doing her crafts and playing with her grandkids.

[WCGreen]

3. Because, I believe, they measure their fear based on personal revulsion

and since they seem to be fear based in their political decision making process, they attack those who would encroach on their personal lives such as guns, god and gays...

[Armstead]

30. Yes...But they don make the connection between their own freedom and that of people they don;t like

They don't recognize that the same restrictions on the rights of gays, or whomever they don't like, can also be used against their own freedoms.

Truly consistent conservatives are libertarians. At least libertarians believe in freedom across the board, instead of the selective "freedom" that right-wing fundies seem to espouse.

[TreasonousBastard]

95. That's a large part of it.

[OHdem10]

4. No strong messages from Democrats.

[LibDemAlways]

5. They listen to Limpballs and Hannity who hammer home the message

that their tax dollars are going to welfare cheats and immigrants courtesy of the big-spending liberal Democrats, and that "Obamacare" is a giveaway to those who refuse to work or who shouldn't be here in the first place. Truth, reason, and logic never got in the way of a good repuke rant. The entire R philosophy centers around greed and hatred for "the other," and the influential media-savvy super-rich rightwingers know exactly how to push all the buttons to get the average boob to vote against his own interests.

[zeos3]

6. I agree with the 3 posts before me.

For more on this topic, check out "What's the Matter with Kansas?" by Thomas Frank.

Another great read on this is "State of Confusion - Political Manipulation and the Assault on the American Mind" by Dr. Bryant Welch.




Editad to add: oops, make that all 5 posts before me.

[salguine]

7. Conservatives come in two flavors: Rich 'n Malicious, and Poor 'n Stupid.

[Zomby Woof]

121. There's also rich and stupid

and poor and malicious.

[Dream Detector 2010]

8. Blowback?

[Bravo Zulu]

9. They're afraid the government might help a

poor person!

[Armstead]

46. But iof they have an accident, they'll head right to the Social Security to file a disability claim

[CTyankee]

93. Some of them ARE poor. They have received food stamps and SSI benefits

for their children. their parents are on Medicare.

these people work at low salaried positions mostly with no health insurance. When I ask what would they do if they were in an accident and wound up in the ER they shrug and say "Let the hospital TRY to get the money from me!"

totally irresponsible people...

[PopYoColla]

10. Easy....

It's a combo of a few elements. Number 1 is simply being raised as so. Their dads or moms or both were conservatives who learned it from their Jim Crow-era parents. They're only going of what they were taught.

Number 2, it's a tribal mentality. Like a Cubs fan who swears their team is gonna win the World Series (The Cubs haven't won 1 since 1908). There's no convincing those that don't want to hear the truth. That's why talk radio is so popular. It's called preaching to the choir. They're like gang members who can't be told that being a gang member (or teabagger) is bad for them. Expecting reason from them only entrenches their beliefs that much further.

Number 3, they were hurt by the criticism of George Bush and conservatism by proxy. This is revenge. That's why their celebrating Scott Brown's win in Mass like it's the Super Bowl.

Bottom line, a lot of people are dumb and need to be led like sheep. Some people are not honest enough with themselves to own up to they're problems. That's why they blame welfare recipients, immigrants and taxes for their failures in life. Ask a middle-class conservative how much of a TAX REFUND they got. Then ask them how the taxes they pay hurt them so much. Out of all those people at those townhalls over the summer, I'd be willing to be 65-80% of them got wealth "redistributed" to them via a tax refund.

All you can do is shake your head.

[chemenger]

99. Don't diss the Cubbies

:grr:

[Drunken Irishman]

11. Because they believe one day they'll get theirs.

And Democrats will take it away from them when they do and give it to the poor and middle class.

They just never get theirs. They're idiots.

[GoCubsGo]

21. That's it.

In a nutshell.

[quantass]

33. well said nt

[TankLV]

36. ...instead of REALLY being ONE FAILED PAYCHECK FROM THE POORHOUSE...

or medical emergency...

[harun]

70. Yep, a primary pillar of fallacy conservatism is built on. And nearly

every middle class conservative I know believes it.

[TreasonousBastard]

94. This is a large part of it.

[treestar]

125. Yes!

I've heard them say countless times that they are going to get rich one day and that it would happen faster if it wasn't for all that government "confiscation."

[kywildcat]

12. They perceive wealthy people

as being conservative (myth one) and believe if they vote like them, they will be like them (myth 2). Truly wealthy people-certainly multi-generational wealth trend more toward liberal than conservative. Conservatives also have a dwindling commonality. What once served to bring like minded people together, and to provide a common language-religion, politics etc... has become so fractured it's inoperable as a tool to bring people together. The unfortunate result of people using religion and politics for personal power and gain, and the flocks who have relied on the tools to feel included and to be a part of something greater than themselves are now manipulated. I believe most desperately want to be validated or included, and willing give up their own best interests for that validation.

[vadawg]

13. going from what i hear, the fear that the left side of the coin would be worse

and that all the stuff they had worked for etc etc would be taken away as its unfair for someone to have say two TV's when someone else dosent have one :shrug:

[quantass]

15. K&R - I find this discussion EXTREMELY fascinating...More please.

Just stumbled onto this thread. It's very fascinating to learn about the conservative mind. It is clear they are powered simply by emotion, not reason/logic.

Saw this video regarding Emotion vs Logic that really explains a conservative mind (emotion) vs a progressive mind (reason).: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSZDUt2uE6c&feature=player_embedded

[zalinda]

16. Because they want someone with a spine

Leaders are supposed to be strong. They are supposed to LEAD. The dems aren't leading, and haven't been for decades. No one but wonks really listen to politicians. They see strength in ads, they vote for the strength. If Kerry would have fought back after the swift boat ads, he would have won.

zalinda

[quantass]

18. It actually seems like it s MORE than just a Spine....

Reading thru the comments here there is a consistency on the mentality these people have. I remember briefly reading a book called "Deer Hunting for Jesus" that tries to explain this warped mentality where these people are willing to vote against their own interests.

It's truly quite fascinating and very sad at the same time because at the core of it seems to be intense fear and lack of desire for an education. This explosive mix must be why they refuse to listen to facts regardless of how much it makes sense. Personally i feel these types of people are quite possibly located on the lowest tier of the Maslov's Hierarchy of Needs and thus very easily manipulated and very dangerous.

[eridani]

106. But when Joe was at the local bar he asked Dottie if she would vote for-

--a candidate who wanted universal health care provided by the government. Her reply was "Vote for him? I'd go down on him!" Joe commented "Voter approval doesn't get much stronger than that."

[tblue37]

107. BTW, _Deer Hunting with Jesus_ is by Joe Bageant, whom many of us

are already familiar with from reading his essays here on DU and elsewhere in the progressive blogosphere, including his own blog.

[GoCubsGo]

22. So, in other words, they want a Mommy or a Daddy?

How sad.

[zalinda]

49. No, they want some one in charge

Unfortunately, the dems don't look like they are in charge of anything. They can't seem to get anything done, at least for the working man.

They don't want a mommy or a daddy, or they wouldn't be so proud of "pulling themselves up by the bootstraps". Uncertainty is the dems worse quality. It's like watching a bunch of kids playing a game of ball without any rules, and they can't find the ball. Repubs, on the other hand, seem to know EXACTLY what they want and how to get it. People see this and think, I want them on my team. It may not be in their best interest, but the dems of late hasn't been in their best interest either.

zalinda

[treestar]

71. they really are pathetic that they need someone to tell them what they want

and just follow them, instead of doing that for themselves.

The authoritarian personality has that feature - they follow.

[uponit7771]

17. When I talk to them about taxes they usually either deny what I'm saying or don't want to talk any..

...longer

[vincna]

19. What do you tell them? - nt

[GoCubsGo]

20. Because they are wannabes

They actually believe the trickle-down bullshit that they're being fed. They think they're going to get rich, too. The republicans promised them they wouldn't have to cough up any of their money to those lazy, unwashed masses, not realizing that they are a part of the unwashed masses. The religious nuts among them bought into the twisted version of Christianity they were fed about how Gawd rewards people by making them rich.

Oh, and being conservatives, they're afraid of everything. Just look at the teabaggers. They'll tell you everything you'll want to know about being afraid of everything that is not a part of their shallow, narrow worlds. They are Exhibit A on how the wealthy exploit ignorant, fearful people into doing their bidding.

As for your friends, when they point out that they "don't like liberals or Democrats," just say, "So, you don't like me, then, huh?"

[quantass]

23. Just WOW! Very insightful! Its sooo different from how Normal people think

Thank you.

[vincna]

24. Do you talk that way about everyone who disagrees with you?

Let me guess - you don't have very many friends.

[depakid]

28. Sounds like he has an apprpriate choice of friends

Want to be friends with cowardly, ignorant (or worse) backstabbing sorts?

Be my guest. Just don't whine when they screw you- or anyone else over.

Which they will do, because by in large- these are NOT people of good character.

[vincna]

Unfortunately, their votes count just as much as his (and yours).

That kind of rhetoric is not going to change anyone's mind and accomplishes nothing in advancing the Progressive agenda. Hope it makes you feel good, but don't whine about it when things like HCR go down the crapper.

[depakid]

35. I you think you're going to "change" any of those types by being "nice," I got a bridge to sell you.

These people respond to only a very few things.

One is ridicule- and the other is experiences that seriously and adversely affect THEM personally AND that they can connect to distinct policies or ideologies.

I'd also add that no one likes ostracism very much- and quite frankly, that's the appropriate response to certain unacceptable attitudes beliefs and values. Advocating for torture or racism for example. Or religious fundamentalism. Or dishonesty for that matter.

See- that's the problem with Americans- and has been for a while now. You legitimize these sorts of folks- you "tolerate" dishonesty and unethical behavior- and now they're all over your radio and TV, spreading their bile 24/7.

And then you wonder why nutters and sociopaths are elected and reelected.

[vincna]

37. I guess my experience with conservatives is different than yours

They have a different view of the role of government but that does not make them racists, bigots or dishonest people. I don't see any value in the approach you advocate or in the rhetoric that is all too common on DU. We'll just have to disagree.

[depakid]

42. Maybe so- but I've seen and known a LOT of died in the wool right wing ideologues

and more than 95% of them are as I described (note: racism and torture were just examples of a larger deal going on).

Another characteristic I noted time and time again is that they're also the ones why cry and moan the loudest when something bad DOES happen to them- they then demand their "rights" -which are (or were) the very same rights that they worked- or supported politicians that worked tirelessly to deny to others.

(foresight isn't their strong point).

[Juche]

116. Good posts

I've seen the same 2 themes with conservatives I know both in person and on the media.

1. They try to deny rights to others that they demand for themselves. Its like the teabaggers when they went to DC to protest government spending. They got pissed that the taxpayer funded public transit system didn't respond to their protests by adding more trains and busses for them to use. They wanted the taxpayers to pay for more public transit to service them so they could go have a rally about how there needs to be less government spending.

Or all the teabaggers on medicare and social security who complain about socialized medicine and welfare. The average Fox News viewer is about 67 years old (meaning they qualify for and use social security and medicare, two of the most socialist programs in the US). That should tell you something.

2. They are conservative and 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps' types, except on issues that affect them. On those issues they believe in consumer protections, government intervention, public assistance, etc. Affects others = too bad. Affects me = important.

Almost every negative trait is found more severely among the wingnuts. Not the moderate conservatives or the libertarians, but the wingnuts.

Xenophobia, dogmatism, self absorption, hypocrisy, ignorance, disdain for egalitarianism, disdain for intellectualism, authoritarianism, etc. If there is a bad trait associated with the human race, the wingnuts have more of it than 90% of people.

I don't mind the libertarians. I don't mind the moderate GOPers. I don't agree with either, but I don't include either in these list of traits. But they are a dying breed.

[Hello_Kitty]

88. Um, this is Democratic Underground in case you weren't aware.

We don't pull punches here. If you want to be coddled go elsewhere.

[Armstead]

25. Fortunately, with my conservative friends we have a sense of hurmor about it

We get into spirited debates, but are able to agree to disagree.

But it is frustrating that there is a brick wall that seems impossible to penetrate. One of my friends is convinced that the financial meltdown happened because Wall St. financiers are liberals. refuses to acknowledge that deregulation is not a liberal policy.

[treestar]

72. I've heard that one from many of them

They believe if their taxes were next to nil, they'd have that money to invest and get rich.

Reality it they would probably lose it all to sharks.

[annabanana]

114. They have bought into the crap being fed to them by

the status-quo supporting media machine too.

It's interesting that "The Family" very specifically says that those who are rich and powerful are that way because God loves them best.

[Vinca]

26. There is a group of people who moved to New Hampshire

who seem to think it's paradise because there is no sales tax or income tax. I think they're libertarians, but they were reflected in that guy who stood with a gun strapped to his thigh at the Obama rally a while back. (They currently want the right to bring loaded guns into the state capital buildings.) In any case, yesterday I went to get our car registrations and I was thinking about them. The cost to register a car in New Hampshire is about 5 times what it is next door in Vermont, that demon state that has a sales and income tax. We have some of the highest property taxes in the nation and you need to purchase a permit to do anything to your property and they're not cheap. The people who somehow think this is wonderful are brainwashed and uninformed, but they'll line up to vote against "big government and taxes" during a blizzard.

[Armstead]

43. Yes that's a bit of cognitive dissonance

Those people who go out on a snowy day to vote against Big Government expect that the roads will be plowed to enable them to get there.

[vincna]

51. Just out of curiosity...

Have there been any studies done about the total cost for state government in NH compared to Vermont and other states. Regardless of how taxes are structured, states have to raise money somehow and every state has a bottom line cost to the taxpayers. How does the all-in cost per capita of state government in NH stack up against other states?

[newportdadde]

27. You should read "What's the Matter with Kansas?"

That book does a good job of asking that question. In short those voters see the parties as very similar if not the same on economic issues. In an effort to 'win something' they move on to social issues and vote Republican.

For myself I agree with what Thomas Frank says in that book but I also think exposure plays a part. I have a co-worker who is Republican.. she knows something is wrong and sometimes she almost gets there in her analysis but it eventually will circle back around to a talking point from Fox News or Rush, her husband watches/listens to both non stop. It is hard to break past those memes when you hear them all the time.

[Armstead]

31. I am familiar with Franks and I agree with him

I also think there is comfort in fall back on familiar memes rather than changing one's mind when confronted with the facts that don't fit onto one's framework.

That's one of the frustrating thing about my conservative friends. They never deviate from the orthodoxy they are fed. I am willing to acknowledge to them that liberalism and Democrats are not perfect or the sole answer, and that some aspects of honest conservative principles are valid. However, they refuse to make any concessions in the otehr direction -- Everything liberal is bad and democrats are all wrong on everything.

[Cosmocat]

67. Absolutely ...

There is such a massive disconnect it just is bizarre ...

Good people who like me a lot, we talk politics and like yourself I admit democratic failings and DESPERATLY try to find middle ground, but there is NO movement, and I am still to them, politcally, the characture that Rush Limbaugh has painted ... They don't hear a SINGLE friggen word, not a word sinks in ...

[Turbineguy]

29. They don't want to be

like they are told we are.

[BeyondGeography]

32. Race is a big part of it

Many middle class whites don't see themselves as being victimized by capital and the rich, but as unfairly taxed to support poor people who are disproportionately non-white. Much of the railing against government is code for don't give my money to THEM. They won't say it, which is why your conservative friends have nothing more to fall back on tha, "I don't like liberals."

These people are terminally confused and misguided by race. Do they scream about a regressive tax code that puts too light a burden on the wealthiest in the country? No. The teabagger reaction to the meltdown and its aftermath was to raise the volume against government spending (which is helping to prop up their economy...) and continue to give business a free pass, even though the government has spent years granting the ownership class' every wish. Not to mention all the help that middle class whites take for granted, such the mortgage interest and property tax deductions that subsidize their schools and support their home prices. When you're unconscious and ungrateful, your own destruction is right around the corner.

[Clio the Leo]

39. nailed it. NT

[Armstead]

40. What's ironic is the same people would be first in line for SS Disability if they had an accident

I've known more than one racist hardass who has had an accident at work and atre now living off Social Security disability.

[BeyondGeography]

50. And they'll seethe when they don't get their annual SS bump even when prices go down

The hypocrisy is pervasive. They are driving blind, straight into a tree.

[CTyankee]

111. Even Joe Scarborough gets that and I've heard him talk about this paradox.

His explanation is as follows: middle class people look at rich people and want to be one of them. So they don't support heavier taxation on the rich because they aspire to be rich one day and don't want to be taxed heavily.

I think Scar has got that part right. What he doesn't logically conclude, however, is that most of these middle class people won't "make it" to the wealthy class. Indeed, as we've seen, the middle class is going down the income ladder, not up. However, he sees it as a testament to the great ingenuity of the American people.

that myth may have had some truth to it inyears past but not now. We created our own 21st century version of "robber barons" and are now robbed. Without a strong safety net we are vulnerable to bankruptcy and personal financial ruin, loss of homes, health care, jobs. All gone in the blink of an eye.

I hope and pray that a more sizable group of this muddle headed middle class will "sober up" and realize they probably won't ever be super rich, but it would be great to at least have peace of mind and relative stability...

[southernyankeebelle]

34. It makes no sense. Republicans are brainwashed. That is the only thing

I can come up with or its purely on social issues. But I never voted for someone who doesn't support my financial interest.

[rudy23]

38. The R's do a great job of framing their world with them on top, and poor minorities below them

That way, the middle class conservative can appreciate the relationship between the robber barons, and the working class.

Those dittoheads think of themselves as being the CEO's of their world, and they see those who "depend" on their money for welfare (where they think 95% of their tax dollars go) in a similar way to how actual CEO's think of the working class.

So that message resonates with dupes who think they're on the big-boy's team, but are actually getting squashed by the big boys.

[TwilightGardener]

41. I have a sis-in-law who is upper middle-class and aspires to be rich--

so she identifies with the party of the rich, and votes that way. Why would she vote for elected officials who might give occasional breaks to people who make less than she does?

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TwilightGardener]

47. It's "bunion", NOT "bunyan", you stupid jackass.

Goodbye, troll.

[babylonsister]

52. Tolerance of conservatives??

:rofl: Can you say 'racist teabaggers'? I knew you could. Yes, such tolerance we behold.

And as a conservative, it's all about you and no one else. No thanks, I'll embrace my liberalness and care and concern for others, unlike your own selfish self.

[BeyondGeography]

54. How has that supply-side thing worked out, anyway?

While you're here, maybe you can tell us what conservatives did with all of their power from 1980-2008 to impose fiscal sanity on government. Was the whole theory flawed, or were they just too wimpy, leaving all those middle class entitlements like Social Security and Medicare in place?

[Strelnikov_]

55. "the tolerance of conservatives and self-reliant individuals"

What is the color of the sky in your fantasy world?

[Spazito]

56. LOL! You funny!

IBTL and your 'guys' just sold you to China, Saudi Arabia, name a country so rather than have 'limited government' you will have a foreign owned government instead.

How do you like them apples, hmmmmm?

[Ian David]

57. If you don't like it, move to your Libertarian Paradise in Somalia. n/t

[cali]

58. sadly, like most freepwad types, you're either stupid or brainwashed or both, honeypie.

conservatives fought social security tooth and nail, your ignorant piece of crap. many still do. they want to privatize it.

and what about our bloated military budget? Our unnecessary wars? military bases all over the world? that's what needs an axe taken to it.

oh, and you're fucking liar. the cost of greedy and inept CEOs has been over a trillion dollars.

Now go fuck yourself with something rusty.

[vincna]

59. Enjoy your stay here, it's going to be a short one

[mmonk]

60. A corporate state in the end is more expensive than government

programs. We miss out on billions of tax dollars, our job base is shipped overseas with their "free trade" agreements, they cost more to subsidize than government programs, and the deficit black hole was started by your belief system, not liberals. Our foreign policy could go back towards defense of this country instead of overthrow to control oil and natural gas markets and we could reduce the 1000+ military bases in 135 countries. Corporations do not have at the core of their function the governance and welfare of a people. They only serve their stockholders. We need to go back to regulated capitalism and progressive taxation or we will end up a third world nation.

[seabeyond]

61. since you see no need for nanny state, you of course support womens right to chose, and gay marriage

because after all, there is no reason for state or fed to legislate

[Armstead]

62. I'm guessing you'll have a short stay, but I appreciate your reply

There are so many fallicies in your thinking it wold be hard to reply to them all. So I'll takle a point or two.

How well one does in life is not just a matter of "choices." There are many people who work hard, but either can't get the breaks they need to move up, or do not have the skills. For example, someone may be a great cabinetmaker, but lousy at business skills. If they are laid off because their company ships the factory to China (under "free trade" anti-protectionist policies), the person loses his job, with no replacement available.

Go into business? Nope. he's a great cabinetmake, b it no entrepreneur. Change his skills and get another job, you might say. Okay, let's say he gets a job in a call center. ooops. That's been shipped to India. become an auto mechanic? Well everyone has been laod off in his towm so there's no business for mechanics. Move, yo might say. Where, if other places are in the same boat...

Maybe there is an answer for this guy. Maybe not. But you sure as shit can't blame it all on him. So what dc we do while he is in limbo? Who's going to help?

Just one tiny piece of the puzzle, b ut your belief that "anyone can succeed if they want to" is just plain wrong.

[Hepburn]

63. Enjoy your corporate pizza, Asshole.

:eyes:

[MUAD_DIB]

65. Your moniker leaves something to be desired.

1) You're wrong. Conservatives love the nanny state. Corporations love the welfare that they receive from the government.

2) You're wrong again. Your so-called socialism/medicine exists in every modern European state to the enjoyment and benefit of their citizens.
Nice of how you tried to trivialize abortion with bunion.

3) You're even more wrong now. If you had revamped SS by letting the market play with the money then there would have been nothing left after the crash except for a big crater. Do you guys even understand what happened to the financial system?

4) You're wrong over and over now. Health care costs are killing the average American. They need to be regulated. I'm sure the nearly 50 million uninsured will feel better now that you've said that there are programs out there for them. :eyes:

5) You're wrong. Actually your next two point really don't make much sense at all. Did you even try to think them out at all before you logged on?
There are more students in public schools than in private, so yes we would have to spend more. Now that wasn't too hard for you to understand I hope.
You do understand that your insurance company is going to jack up your premium rate year after year, right? You do know that the insurance companies report record profits year after year, right? :eyes:

6) You're wrong lil teabagger. There is no such thing as conservative tolerance. They cry, scream and have their tantrums; all the while latching onto silly hot-button issues like gay marriage, and anti-illegal immigrants while their jobs are shipped to places like China and India... whic leads me to

7) You're wrong as usual. Greedy CEOs are part of the problem since they believe that nobody will be able to do their job so well (as they run the company into the ground), that it is better to use labor in China and India (which will put you and your buddies out of work my little chicken), and that their overall costs to society is not just measured in $$ but in how much they are willing to destroy for their own avarice.


Now why don't you run along and think about how silly you really are.

[Yavin4]

45. It's Part of the Abuse Cycle

When you constantly abuse people, they can become self-loathing or angry and/or destructive. Bullies on the playground tend to be abused children at home.

Conservatives exist because they get beaten up every day by life, but instead of taking action against their abuser, they go to the playground and beat up other kids.

[Armstead]

48. Probably true underneath -- But they'd never admit it. Instead they see it as macho.

[workinclasszero]

53. Because they are easily lead idiots

My workforce consists of 5 hundred or so people. Out of that number I know of a couple of democrats including myself. The rest are teabaggin followers of Beck and Limpballs. These are the quickly disappearing middle class too.

And yes they are all fuckin idiots that are insuring their children will live a terrible meager existence because Sarah Palin and Rush and prolly the preacher at their church told them it was the right thing to do!

The republicans cater to their racism, avarice and greed. So they eat it up. God help us all.

[totodeinhere]

64. Because the things that you listed are not that important to some people.

I know some pro-life conservatives who consider stopping abortion much more important than how much they pay for health care. If you ask them why they will say that such material considerations are not important to them yet preserving unborn life is. I don't agree with them of course, but that's the way the lot of them feel. And many of them have similar views about other issues.

[treestar]

75. I agree, those who are rabid on that issue care nothing for anything

else. Even people getting killed in Iraq unnecessarily does not cut it. People who've already been born! they voted for McCain, even though McCain would have not chance of making it illegal, just appoint justices to the Supreme Court that might be able to overturn Roe v. Wade, even if it took decades. They really take the long view and are persistent.

People can die for lack of health care, people can die in unnecessary wars, people can suffer all sorts of injustice and they will admit that does not matter to them in the least!

[totodeinhere]

76. Yes, and then there are some sick people who actually enjoy seeing others suffer.

I know it sounds crazy, but some people have a miserable life and somehow seeing others suffer even worse than they do makes them feel better.

[Armstead]

83. Those aren't the peope lm I am referring to

Single issue voters are a different kettle of fish.

If someone profoundly believes abortion is murder, and believes that pro-choice policies are akin to genocide, then other issues seem less important to them. That's understandable I guess.

However, it also raises an interesting conundrum. How many single-issue voters also adopt the rest of the package along the way. It's one thing for an anti-abortion person to oppose liberals as pro-choice -- but it's fucked up when they also adopt otehr right-wing orthodoxy on economics or otehr issues because the GOP is anti-abortion.

[Flying Dream Blues]

66. They are manipulated by hate and fear. And lies.

And our side has a very small voice in comparison to Rush, Beck, Faux, Murdock, et al.

[veganlush]

69. In a system of one person, one vote, ...

...there aren't enough rich people to get repugnants into power. In the Reagan era, they figured out that they needed to fool a large contingent of voters into voting with them and against their own interests.

The solution came with the unholy marriage with the religious right, the "moral majority" and of course the wedge issues that brought along all the simple people in the bible belt who were scared to death of gays, immigrants, evolution, blacks, women, the loss of their guns, etc...

[treestar]

73. Most of the rich don't care about those social issues

They use them to rally these people to vote against their interest.

IMO the Roves of the world really don't care about abortion. But they know many middle class people don't like it and it gives them something to use. Same with the gays, guns, and immigrants.

Look at Cheney's gay daughter. RW top guns don't really truly have a problem with it. They just know how to exploit the lower classes' fear.

[veganlush]

77. exactly.....n/t

[Juche]

118. The GOP can be divided into social dominators and right wing authoritarians

That is what Bob Altemeyer found.

The Right Wing Authoritarians (RWAs) are dogmatic, fearful, submissive to authority, aggressive towards outsiders, easily led, closed minded, hypocritical.

The Social Dominators are cynical, manipulative, power hungry and low on empathy. Social Dominators aren't really religious, but they pretend to be to gain status and/or manipulate people.


You can divide the GOP into those 2 groups (IMO)

RWAs = O'Reilly, Beck, Hannity, the religious right

Social Dominators = Limbaugh, Rove, Cheney, Guiliani, Gingrich, the corporate overlords



So you have a party of RWAs who talk about their hate of liberals due to their threats to family values being led by people like Gingrich who abandoned his wife while she had cancer.

A bunch of fearful dogmatic people (RWAs) being led by a bunch of cynical, power hungry manipulators (social dominators). That is the GOP in a nutshell, a party of Glenn Becks being led by a bunch of Dick Cheneys and Karl Roves. And that isn't an insult, that is the way it is.


Read chapter 5 of Altemeyer's book 'the authoritarians' for info on Social Dominators.



http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/chapter5.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_dominance_orientation

[JamesA1102]

74. Because the right wing has been successful in exploiting

there fears, hatreds and simple-minded thinking.

[Romulox]

78. The Dems are the party of: increased military spending, bankster bailouts, forced insurance,

deregulation, "free trade", etc. etc.

It simply cannot be taken as read that voting for Democrats is "in the best interest" of the middle and lower classes.

I think the sort of argument in the OP (and many of the responses) borders on self-flattery: they must be STUPID not to side with us! But it will take more than self-congratulating rhetoric for the Democrats to seize the populist high-ground. :hi:

[Armstead]

79. I actually agree with you

My purpose in the OP was (apart from frustration with recent events) to get at the ideology, rather than bashing Democrats as not representing enough of a counter-approach. beating up on ourselves for not actually offering an alternative is just another flame bait -- but it's also a fact.

It's sort of like someone liking vanilla ice cream, but never getting exposure to strawberry ice cream, and so they assume vanilla is the only good flavor available.....or something like that.

[Romulox]

89. I think the President, Emanuel, and Axelrod will discover you can't play at being a populist

Wednesday and Thursday, the WH seemed to be putting out feelers that the President was going to "go populist"--as if he could establish such credibility as easily as choosing a restaurant for lunch!

What the President's people may or may not understand is that "populism" isn't a garment that he can put on and take off when it suits him--he was exposed as to this issue way back during the Ohio primaries and his NAFTA debacle.

So, I wish luck to the President in his endeavor to learn enough of the populist lingo to settle the natives. But I can't help but think we've been here before with this admin, and its commitment to "populism" (especially with regard to matters economic) is exactly as deep as the polls say it needs to be.

Which is all a very long winded way of saying actions speak louder than words.

[DCBob]

80. Guns, Gays, and God...

and complete ignorance plays a part as well.

[Armstead]

85. Gays, Guns and God have nothing to do with economics though

[DCBob]

86. They dont care about economics as long as the GOP gives them lipservice on their sacred 3G issues..

Sickening isn't it?

[quantass]

91. Precisely!

[olegramps]

81. Because they are brainwashed zombies.

[inthebrain]

82. The middle class is the buffer between the rich and the poor

That's how it works.

Folks that look at things and see these people "voting against their interest" see it as something wrong with the system. That's just wrong headed. This is the system working. The folks that are running for office are capitalists. Their only god is profit. They couldn't give two shits about your welfare.

[Armstead]

84. You can't paint a broad brush about all people running for office

[depakid]

87. I'm beginning to wonder the same thing about a lot of Democrats

[Bullet1987]

90. Because of partisanship and stupidity

Democrats are really pissed about this, and they feel if we're mad...then it must be good. It's a completely ass backwards mentality. FOX News has also been hush hush on this...goes to show you where their intentions are.

[krabigirl]

92. religion and false patriotism, years of brainwashing

[TheKentuckian]

96. Racism, stupidity, and what I call preemptive greed.

[TreasonousBastard]

97. Largely because they don't believe they are supporting their own...

destruction. Most of 'em, anyway.

What a lot of us refuse to admit is that a form of "conservatism" is basic to human nature-- when making a choice between possibly better things in the future and maintaining what we have, we usually don't gamble and feel safe with what we have.

Labor unions have always had this problem, and organizers will tell you they can have more problems getting the attention of workers than fighting management. And that's nothing new-- it goes back to early in the last century when workers were REALLY getting screwed, but were still afraid to jeopardize their lousy jobs.

So, a Republican candidate comes out and says just keep on the way you are and everything will be OK because we're reducing taxes and that will make your situation better vs a Democrat's grand plans for a great future that, just maybe, means some other people competing for your job and your employer getting all pissed off and giving you grief and you have to do this and that...

Well, too many people will just perfer to live with what they have instead of gambling on what might be. At least they know where they stand.

Sounds stupid, but you and I and everyone here, if we're honest, know we've all acted this way at times.

Another thing is that "working class" "middle class" and all those descriptors don't seem to mean much any more. When I lived in Elizabeth, NJ, I knew dockworkers who gamed the system to make $200-300,000 a year. Some even more. Cops making over a hundred grand. Union electricians (not too many of them any more) making less than dockworkers, but one of them I knew retired on his $5200 a month union pension.

Airline pilots, at the time, were taking cuts while dockworkers were getting a raise.

So, when dockworkers are making more than so many here believe university presidents should make, what does middle class mean any more? And why should we think the dockworkers would see themselves as laborers oppressed by The Man when they are obsessing over thir portfolios and waiting for the new BMW models to come out?

(I vaguely remember a survey a few years ago when 90% of the people randomly surveyed believed they were in the top 75% of earnings. Think about that for a moment.)

[ItNerd4life]

98. Why would they answer? Look how they are insulted on this thread

They are called every name in the book. Do you really expect an answer if the people asking the questions are insulting and full of hatred?

I could answer it because I have many independent friends and many conservative friends. But every time on DU I try to explain their positions,
I'm called a fraud.

Look at how you asked your question. You are implying they are stupid because they disagree with you. You aren't asking like you want to learn and hear what they have to say.

[quantass]

101. Not insulting -- Their way of thinking is very closed minded and angry

It seems to fit a consistent pattern that i see across conservative outlets....so the discussion here only helps clarify this pattern. So i dont think it is insulting. These type of people definitely are being manipulated and its very sad.

[-wulf-]

100. Flawed premis

The question is poorly worded and based on assumptions that are overly generalized.

How can anyone answer a question that would require them to say "I support politicians and an ideology that is contrary to my interest?"

The question also forces one to say that they don't want workers, consumers, and citizens to have rights.


There are several reasons one may refer to themselves as a "conservative" but two of these people in the same room may disagree with each other on a wide variety of issues. The same is true of those that are labeled "liberals" by those who are not.

Some may see themselves as "conservatives" for no other reason than they feel that government should balance the budget by cutting spending rather than raising taxes. If there is no spending to be cut, then by all means raise taxes. Others may call themselves conservatives not for economic reasons, but out of a belief that people should not be dependent on the government for anything that isn't explicitly laid out in the constitution. It is from these kinds of basic, simple foundations that more complex differences between so-called "conservatives" and "liberals" arise.

I think that people need to work a little harder to understand the basically simple fundamental beliefs that most citizens have and steer away from such labels like "evil," "anti-American," "idiot" and the like.

To be certain, not everyone out there has decided that they are a "liberal" or "conservative" for intelligent reason, but that is no excuse to levy that accusation across the board.

[Armstead]

104. Yes it is overly genralized -- Many liberals are also conservative in some ways

Most people are a mix of liberal and conservative beliefs.

However,my question was asked in the comtext of the current political climate, and referring to those people who are rigidly right wing in their beliefs. That would mean the conservative who align themselves with an ideology that does favor the powerful, and who negate any good from the opposite came they see as "liberals."

The Sean Hannity types. (Not Sean specifically, because he has made it into the upper economic echelons. I mean his followers.)

Those people are supporting an ideology that is contrary to their self-interest, and they do not fall into the reasonable category.

[justgamma]

112. Do they really think that? I don't believe it..

"a belief that people should not be dependent on the government for anything that isn't explicitly laid out in the constitution"

That was a puke frame of the heathcare bill. Trouble is. I didn't see one persondemanding that they do away with Social Security insurance or Medicare. Where were the big demonstrations against Bush's drug plan?

[renegade000]

102. Religious Indoctrination

Repeat after me: "Government evil! Markets good!", so spake St. Ronald of Reagan.

[nini]

103. they also buy into the moral high ground the repubs supposedly have

they get roped into the hot button issues like abortion and fall into party line with those bastards.

They can't see beyond the embryo and they're destroying the country with their stupidity - not to mention the republicans really don't want to ban abortion because they'd lose that issue to keep them voting for them.

[Doremus]

105. Mean & hateful on the outside and quivering cowards on the inside. nt

[Fla Dem]

109. Because they loath and /or fear people not like them.

I have friends who should be strong democrats. This is just not one group of friends, but friends and acquaintances in different settings. They have been teachers, nurses, journeymen trades people and professionals. They have belonged to unions. But they see the democratic party/liberals as the party of minorities and immigrants, legal or otherwise. They hate what they see as the ruining of America. They blame most of societies ills on the poor, the undereducated, and minorities. Forget that most of them are only 2nd generation Americans; their grandparents were immigrants. And their beliefs are fed every day by talk radio and Faux News. The way they see any health care reform is that they will be paying for those that can't and that translate into........those others. These are not rich people, they are middle class working hard to live a decent life. They view the Democrats as trying to even the playing field, and by doing so they will be poorer. The Tea baggers play right into these fears.

[WinkyDink]

110. Guns, abortion, xenophobia.

[johan helge]

113. Two important reasons, I think:

1 Racism. Krugman (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/19/opinion/19krugman.html?_r=2): ”The centrality of race — and, in particular, of the switch of Southern whites from overwhelming support of Democrats to overwhelming support of Republicans (((because of “the white backlash against the civil rights movement”))) — is obvious from voting data. For example, everyone knows that white men have turned away from the Democrats over God, guns, national security and so on. But what everyone knows isn’t true once you exclude the South from the picture. As the political scientist Larry Bartels points out, in the 1952 presidential election 40 percent of non-Southern white men voted Democratic; in 2004, that figure was virtually unchanged, at 39 percent.”

2 Image. Krugman mentions "the undoubted conservative superiority at talking tough and striking heroic poses" (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/11/crazy-like-a-fox-executive/). The Repubs portray themselves as representing ordinary people, and then portray being ordinary as not kicking upwards but just downwards (against terrorists, criminals, lazy people, etc.).

[Armstead]

120. I hate to admit it, b ut there's some truth there

[Juche]

115. Misinformation, class warfare, alpha/beta male dynamics, flattery

Wingnuts and working class conservatives fall for a lot of flattery.

The GOP narrative to them goes like this

"You guys are the real Americans. You work hard and you play by the rules and make good decisions. However, 'those'* people want to take your hard earned tax dollars and spend it on themselves because they don't have the good judgment you have to avoid the pitfalls of life. You make the right decisions and get punished, while 'those'* people make terrible decisions and get rewarded."


It is flattery, and pure bullshit divide and conquer.

There is a statement: A conservative is a liberal who has been mugged

But you can say the opposite. A liberal is a conservative with life experience


Many conservatives, when kicked in the face by reality, will become liberal. It happens all the time in health care. Once reality beats the shit out of them and the BS flattery narrative falls apart, they start clamoring for reform.

My brother and his wife are conservative. Several years ago they complained about paying taxes for medicare. Now both support medicare for all because they have kids and their insurance via their job is unstable.




That and most are grossly misinformed about taxes. They think the GOP is going to cut their taxes and the dems will raise them. They are too uninformed to know that the GOP cuts dividend, estate, capital gains, corporate and upper bracket federal income taxes. Taxes the vast majority of American individuals do not pay a large amount in.



So flattery, class warfare and misinformation. That is what I've seen growing up in a red state. There are conservatives who vote GOP who aren't ignorant, classist or misinformed. But they are rare.



those* = mexicans, blacks, the poor. Angry white voters (I'm a white person in a small town in a red state) fall for that shit in droves.



Also there is the fact that at least the GOP has principals and will stand up for them. They are destructive principals, but they will stand together to get them done. The democrats are pretty limp and passive compared to the GOP. We are a species evolved from earlier primates, and the alpha male gets all the women and gets to run things. The GOP is the alpha male. They don't take shit, they are tough and they stand up for what they believe in. The democratic party is run by beta males (wimpy, passive, apologetic, submissive). You really can't underestimate the impact this has on an unconscious level for voters. Anyone who followed the social unit led by the beta male 100k years ago probably got beaten to death by the alphas. We're just civilized monkeys. And the monkeys led by Obama and Dukakis got the shit kicked out of them by the monkeys led by McConnell and Cheney.




Also, read these. Especially the scientific paper 'political conservatism as motivated social cognition' which is a meta analysis of dozens of studies on political conservatism over the decades and across cultures.

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/07/22_politics.shtml

http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~hannahk/bulletin.pdf

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/




Also, on the factor five personality test those higher in openness to experience are more liberal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openness_to_experience

[Armstead]

117. Good post

[Bettie]

119. Because there is one huge benefit to being a Republican or

a RW Religious person.

You don't have to think.

You just do what your church or your party tells you to do.

Everything is either black or white, there are no shades of gray, you just do as you're told without having to do any messy research or thinking.

Unfortunately, that is why the Right is always in lock-step while the Left has many different views and will never be 100% unified.

[donco6]

122. Religion is a big part of it.

When God wants something, putting your own needs ahead of that is seen as evil. And God loves Republicans.

[Hippo_Tron]

123. If you want a serious answer read What's the Matter With Kansas

Nobody can really give a complete answer to that question in a sentence or a paragraph. Thomas Frank's book has the best explanation that I've seen yet for this phenomenon.

[Kaleva]

124. They hope someday to be rich themselves.