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What's to prevent Dems from using the "nuclear option" like the GOP threatened?

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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 12:55 PM
Original message
What's to prevent Dems from using the "nuclear option" like the GOP threatened?
Edited on Fri Jan-22-10 12:57 PM by Armstead
Another poster, Overseas, just recalled what the GOP used to keep Democrats in line when they had the majority. The nuclear option.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=145476&mesg_id=145611

What's been preventing us from threatening to push that button?


Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_option

In U.S. politics, the "nuclear option" is an attempt by a majority of the United States Senate to end a filibuster by invoking a point of order to essentially declare the filibuster unconstitutional which can be decided by a simple majority, rather than seeking formal cloture with a supermajority of 60 senators. Although it is not provided for in the formal rules of the Senate, the procedure is the subject of a 1957 parliamentary opinion and has been used on several occasions since. The term was coined by Senator Trent Lott (Republican of Mississippi) in 2005.<1>

The maneuver was brought to prominence in 2005 when then-Majority Leader Bill Frist (Republican of Tennessee) threatened its use to end Democratic-led filibusters of judicial nominees submitted by President George W. Bush. In response to this threat, Democrats threatened to shut down the Senate and prevent consideration of all routine and legislative Senate business. The ultimate confrontation was prevented by the Gang of 14, a group of seven Democratic and seven Republican Senators, all of whom agreed to oppose the nuclear option and oppose filibusters of judicial nominees, except in extraordinary circumstances.
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. a spine...n/t
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Well, that too -- But I'm also wondering if there are any valid reasons
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. No, no valid reasons, but they'll come up with excuses not to...n/t
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I want to hear the excuses, then...This seems like a weapon that has been ignored
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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Repukes were afraid Dems would want to use it someday too. They were right. Maybe.
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VMI Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. Weak ass leadership.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. I want to know why they haven't even hinted at doing this
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VMI Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. They would have to clear it with Joe Lieberman first.
Like they did on the HCR bill.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. The misguided Noble Bipartisan Pretense that went on for far too long.
The president I voted for because he ran a progressive campaign, won millions of votes from Republicans and Independents because they knew the GOP had led our country over a cliff. We all wanted significant change from GOP business as usual. We wanted a lot of distance between the party that lied us into war and deregulated us into the financial crash.

But our president was captured by a dreamy ideal that was old fashioned back in the 90's when it was pushed on Clinton-- the "New Democrat" foolishness. Pushing Democrats to act like Republicans and serve corporate interests at the expense of their base. That very outdated New Democrat stuff included lots of pretending that Republicans made sense, when their ideas were (and still are) unsustainable for the majority of people and the planet, while they are very appealing to the wealthiest donor groups.

Even after millions voted for urgent change, many deserting their traditional parties to vote Democratic because they knew how far our country had been pushed off track by the Bush Gang, our exciting new Democratic administration started bending over backward to court Republicans almost as soon as they were inaugurated. That was a pathetic, demoralizing move.

IMHO, we needed at least a Truth & Reconciliation Commission to expose the crimes of the previous administration. That would have readied the country for much more dramatic positive change-- Medicare for all, massive jobs programs, strict financial re-regulation, and faster withdrawal from the wars associated with the Bush Gang's immoral practices.

President Obama was also presenting himself as a fairly moderate Democrat and that seemed fine at the time because progressive ideas are practical solutions that work well for the majority of the people, not incompatible with a moderate orientation. FDR type policies would have been the most practical, economical solutions to the giant crises dumped on his administration. A moderate could have pushed through Medicare for All on the grounds of basic compassion and justice-- "Bush forced us to bail out the banks, and now the people need a bailout too."

When our people were desperate, being evicted from their homes by the thousands after being sold defective products by the de-regulated financial sector, our new administration chose to play the very weird Noble Bipartisan Game with our national health security. That was really short-sighted. Some Democrats actually talked about the need to make things "fair" for the health insurance industry that had spent the last 10 years refining ways to increase their profits by dropping people's coverage and excluding preexisting conditions. The triggers of decency had been blown way off their hinges and our Democrats pretended we needed to be fair with those companies. It was profoundly demoralizing to see our Democrats less concerned about being fair to the majority of desperate citizens that supported a strong public option.

We get the concept of "working together." I am old enough to remember Republicans and Democrats working together but that hasn't happened for over a decade now. The GOP has been playing ugly bully games-- "ethics be damned, just smash the damn Democrats"-- so why would our party choose this time of multiple major crises to kiss up to them?

By the way, that precious 1% bipartisan vote, Olympia Snowe, was one of the Gang of 14.

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crikkett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. That would be The Dems.
Too easy.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. It IS too easy...I want to hear some real reasons
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. The will to do it.
They WANT things this way. They don't want to actually do the work we sent them there to do. They just want to capitulate to the Republicans while the Republicans act like Sassy in Homeward Bound: The Republicans pretend they don't want something. So, the Democrats will bend over backwards and beg them to take everything they wanted in the first place. It's all bad bad bad kabuki on both sides.

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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. Fear that it might work and they would accidently pass something that their puke
colleagues might object to.

This group is USELESS - more than that, they are counter-productive to any real attempt at progressive change.

At best, they would rather maintain their friendly relationships with the enemy across the aisle than do something positive for actual people.

At worst, they are "accomplishing" exactly what they want - continuance of the Bushista policies.

That is now our new choice between the "lesser of two evils."
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
11. Willful refusal to do what is required to do the people's business
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andym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. Tradition and fear of a public backlash against "seizing" power
Edited on Fri Jan-22-10 01:12 PM by andym
(see FDR and the effects of trying to pack the Supreme court for possible backlash against power grabs). But I think it should be done. Let the USA become more like a parliamentary democracy.
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. they might as well use the power now that they have it
if they don't sharpen up then they are going to lose in November
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. There's already been a backlash to the ineptitude
If a Nuke were threatened for something widely accepted, like no lifetome coverage caps and denials on insurance, it might be seen by the public more as fighting to advance the common good
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andym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. As I stated in the post, I say do it and get something done. nt.
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dgibby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
13. Two words:
No cajones.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
17. the fact that they protested it so strongly when they were in the minority
and the fact that the GOP never actually invoked the nuclear option.

A better idea would be Tom Harkin's, which has some credibility because he advocated it when the dems were in the minority.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2010/01/sen-harkin-proposes-weakening-the-filibuster/1

Harkin, who has been a critic of the current filibuster process for years, would set up a series of votes to cut off debate, according to The Hill. If the Senate couldn't reach 60 votes to end debate on its first try, another vote could be scheduled two days later that would require 57 votes. If that failed, another attempt two days later would require 54 votes. Failing that, a fourth vote, two days later, would need only a simple majority.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Who cares? The Confederates are always hypocrites (nt)
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. voters care, I think
I agree, the GOP gets away with tons of hypocrisy, especially on filibusters.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Harkin's would be an approach too if it could be implemented
Not seeming to be hypocritical may be noble, but too much nobility is ineffectual
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. not being utter hypocrites is not "too much nobility"
it's not even nobility at all to refrain from using the nuclear option, it's just a bare minimum of integrity.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Were the GOP decent hioman beings I'd agree -- But they're not
And they keep whipping our collective butts.

Can't take a butterknife to a knifefight.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. you think John Kerry is going to take this speech back?
how full of shit do you think John Kerry was when he gave this speech on the Senate floor, that he would say, never mind, that was before 9/11, or the equivalent.

How full of shit do you think all the judges and legal scholars and ordinary people who protested the nuclear option, including protesting outside Bill Frist's house, are, that they would wouldn't protest just as much?

http://kerry.senate.gov/cfm/record.cfm?id=237974

John Kerry on “Nuclear Option” on Judicial Nominees


“The Constitution didn’t mandate a rubberstamp for George Washington, and the Constitution doesn’t mandate a rubberstamp for George Bush.”

Below are the remarks of Senator John Kerry on the Senate floor this afternoon. Senator John Kerry Time for Profiles in Courage May 19, 2005 Remarks As Prepared for Delivery Senate Floor on gaining total control notwithstanding the rules. And members of Republican leadership who know what’s at stake work with the Administration to spread mistruths. But none of leadership’s arguments stand up to Constitutional scrutiny. None of them. None of these hollow, tortured, poll-tested statements like “up or down votes” or “unprecedented” are valid. They sound good, but they’re not true, and we all know it. Yet Senators continue to fall in line, turning this into a debate about twisted terminology, not the Constitution, history and rights of Senators.
And I think there would be more outrage if the value of truth had not been so diminished by this Administration. We have a budget that comes trillions short of counting every dollar we plan to spend. We had a Medicare actuary forced to fudge the numbers and lie to Congress to keep his job. We had falsified numbers in Iraq on everything from the cost of the war to the number of trained Iraqi troops to a “slam dunk” case for weapons of mass destruction. We have an Administration that continues to want to fund fake newscasts to mislead people all across America.

The Administration’s willingness to consistently abandon the truth has done great damage. Americans are less willing to listen – less likely to trust or take anything that is said in Washington seriously. They know, as many of us have said, that we ought to be wrestling with a crisis in healthcare and nuclear proliferation in North Korea. The people know what’s wrong with our politics, and sadly here in the Senate the leadership isn’t listening.

So now we find ourselves in a struggle between a great political tradition in the United States that seeks common ground so we can do the common good – and a new ethic that, on any given issue, will use any means to justify the end of absolute victory over whatever and whoever stands in the way.

The new view says if you don’t like the facts, just change them; if you can’t win playing by the rules, just rewrite them. The new view says if you can’t win a debate on the strength of your argument, demonize your opponents. The new view says it’s okay to ignore the overwhelming public interest as long as you can get away with it.

And this time the Republican leadership has gone farthest of all to get away with it, hoping to convince Americans that by breaking the Senate rules they are acting to defend the Constitution, honor the words of our Founding Fathers, and avert a judicial crisis.

But we all know this debate is fueled by ideology, not by defense of democratic principle or some shortage of judges on the bench. The facts have been repeated clearly again and again, and are repeatedly brushed aside and ignored. But with over 95% of the judges already approved, we all know this is nothing more than a power grab by an Administration bent on controlling every aspect of our government, even if that means weakening it.

The Bush Administration and their allies in Congress hope to get away with it by playing with words to sell the public on a scheme the public would never buy if we had an honest debate. Words with great meaning – Constitution – Founding Fathers – votes – history – precedent – are being twisted and robbed of their meaning. The Administration underestimates the American people on this. Americans value the Constitution. They understand its intent. They understand that the strength of our democracy is best judged by the enduring strength of the minority.

When people heard the term “nuclear option” they rightfully recoiled. They were confident that dismantling the filibuster and silencing the minority would have as catastrophic an effect on their democracy as a nuclear blast would on our security. But the majority’s reaction was not to play by the rules, but rather to change slogans. So in an act of transparent hypocrisy, the majority changed the slogan to “constitutional option” and embarked on a series of hollow arguments based on mythical constitutional provisions – confident in their belief that if you speak an untruth enough eventually you’ll confuse enough people. Well, you can change the slogan, but you can’t change the fact that diminishing the rights of the minority diminishes the spirit of our Constitution The Bush-Republican leadership arguments are false. I have heard it argued that our Constitution mandates specific voting protocol for all judges. They’ve used their new catch phrase “up or down votes” hundreds of times in recent days. Those words don’t appear once in our Constitution. No one should be fooled. It doesn’t mean constitutional. It doesn’t mean democratic and it doesn’t mean fair. It’s code for dissent-proof, minority-proof and filibuster-proof. And there is nothing in our Constitution or our history to suggest that the nominee of any president is so special as to be excused from the scrutiny of the minority – or granted immunity from the tools of democracy that protect that minority.

My colleagues are well aware that the power of advice and consent is granted to the Senate, and that the Constitution says nothing about how the Senate shall provide that advise and consent. They know the Senate is free to make its own rules, as the Constitution clearly states. They know the Senate’s role in the nominating process was designed to be active and decisive.

Benjamin Franklin was so concerned about ceding excessive power to the executive that he advocated that nominations originate in the Senate. He was not alone. At our Constitutional Convention the process for appointments was one of the last and most difficult accords reached by our Founding Fathers.

And it did not take long before the new Congress exercised its Constitutional powers. In 1795, Senators who were friends and colleagues of the founders themselves, and who surely knew their intent, defeated George Washington’s nomination of John Rutledge to be Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

In 1968, Republican Senator Robert Griffin captured the spirit of this event when he said: “That action in 1795 said to the President then in office and to future Presidents: ‘Don’t expect the Senate to be a rubberstamp. We have an independent and coequal responsibility in the appointing process; and we intend to exercise that responsibility, as those who drafted the Constitution so clearly intended.’”

The Constitution didn’t mandate a rubberstamp for George Washington, and the Constitution doesn’t mandate a rubberstamp for George Bush. In 1795, the rejection of Washington’s nominee was heralded as the Constitution working, not failing. There is no doubt that an active, coequal partnership was intended.

This resounding rejection of George Washington, our revolutionary leader, helped seal the death of monarchy in this country. The genius of empowering the Senate and the minority was that, by limiting the executive, the Senate legitimized the executive. So when I hear my colleagues arguing that the Constitution mandates that the will of the majority always trump the minority, I don’t hear the wisdom of our Founding Fathers – I hear the same blind activism that characterizes the judges they intend to force on the federal bench. The actions of some Senators come closer to rewriting the Constitution than defending it.

Another argument we have heard is that the filibuster itself is unconstitutional. That argument is also deeply flawed. The Constitution, in Article I, Section V, grants each house the power to “determine the Rules of its proceedings.” The framers deferred rule-making responsibility to us.

Over the past 200 hundred years, our predecessors in the Senate have taken the role of consent very seriously, and created time-tested rules to assure the rights of the minority and balance the power of government.

With a “hold” a single Senator can delay a presidential nominee. A single committee chairman can block a nomination by simply refusing to hold hearings. Until recently the Blue Slip process allowed Senators to reject nominees from their home state. And the right to extended debate, or the filibuster, is granted to any group of more than two-fifths of the Senate – making it more inclusive than any of these other accepted and oft-used practices.

These rules were not created by the Democratic Party when George Bush was elected. The filibuster was used as early as 1790 when Senators from Virginia and South Carolina filibustered against a bill to locate the first Congress in Philadelphia. That was a filibuster of one, because in 1790 unanimous consent was needed to end debate. Think about that. Those legislators, who were friends and even founders themselves, permitted a filibuster of one. Knowing that, today’s activist arguments buckle under the weight of history.

The unfortunate truth is that some Senators have fashioned themselves activist legal scholars, using a false reading of the Constitution to paint their opponents as obstructionists while pursuing their political agenda at the expense of our democracy. I think some of my colleagues forget the Senate was designed specifically to be a moderating check on the President, not a rubberstamp for executive will.

My colleagues also forget, as they demonize the filibuster, that it has been a force for good. But farmers don’t forget. Farmers don’t forget when Senators from rural states used the filibuster to force Congress to respond to a crisis that left thousands of farmers on the brink of bankruptcy in 1985. The big oil companies don’t forget. The big oil companies don’t forget when Senators used the filibuster to defeat massive tax giveaways they lobbied for in 1981. And I don’t forget when 10 years ago I came to the floor and filibustered to prevent a bill that would have gutted public health, safety, consumer and environmental protections. That bill never passed, and we know the country is better for it.

Some Senators come to the floor with a practical argument about our courts. They claim that because we have not rubberstamped each and every one of George Bush’s nominees, the nation faces a crisis because of a shortage of judges on the bench. They ignore that over 95% of the president’s nominees have already been confirmed. They ignore the fact that our courts have the lowest vacancy rate in decades.

What is threatened is a delicately balanced system that for 214 years successfully prevented the Executive from usurping power granted in good faith by the American people. And that threat manifests itself in a “nuclear option” that threatens the character of this Senate. The integrity of this Senate is threatened when the majority attempts to change the rules by breaking the rules. The balance of power is threatened when the power of advice and consent is gutted. Our democracy is threatened when we set the dangerous precedent that minority rights can be silenced whenever they inconvenience the majority. And I believe that our courts and the justice they are meant to deliver are threatened by some of the judges President Bush has nominated.

But some of my colleagues have argued that Democrats filibuster these judges because we simply dislike them, or disagree on ideology or policy. That’s couldn’t be farther from the truth. We have confirmed countless judges who we disagree with, but respect as responsible, impartial arbiters of the law. It is these activist judges who we seek to keep off the federal bench. It is these judges who want to rewrite our laws from the bench that we believe are unqualified for lifetime appointments. And we stand against them in defense of, not as a threat to, the Constitution.

We have also been accused of unprecedented acts with respect to these nominations. Surely my colleagues have not forgotten that 69 of President Clinton’s judges were buried in Committee. Was it fair? Maybe not. Did you hear the minority hiding behind mythical constitutional values in a short-sighted attempt to break the rules? Of course not.

The Majority Leader himself has voted to filibuster a nominee, yet now he tells us he is moved by deeply held Constitutional principles.

President Johnson’s nominee to Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, Abe Fortas, was defeated in a filibuster. Tennessee Republican Howard Baker articulated the minority’s position, saying, “The majority is not always right all of the time. And it is clear and predictable that the people of America, in their compassionate wisdom, require the protection of the rights of the minority as well as the implementation of the will of the majority.”

Throughout our history Presidents and majorities have always had to govern a nation where minority rights were protected. Until this day Presidents and majorities have respected that tradition. They were humbled and inspired by lessons from history that some of my colleagues seem to have forgotten.

In 1937, President Roosevelt attempted a court-packing scheme to assert his influence on the courts. His own party said no. Thomas Jefferson once attempted to impeach a Supreme Court Justice who disagreed with his political agenda. His own party said no.

When my colleagues complain of lack of precedent, remember these precedents. They were fair. They were just. They affirmed the rights of the minority. And they did it all in respect of the Constitution and in defense of the judiciary. Our predecessors stood up to their own party leaders because they valued the real strength of this democracy more than the short-term success of their partisan agenda. The question is – will we live up to that test?

Recent predecessors of Senate Republicans have repeatedly urged respect for this legacy. Former Republican Senate Majority Leader Howard Baker said destroying the right to filibuster “would topple one of the pillars of American Democracy: the protection of minority rights from majority rule.” Former Republican Senator Charles Mathias said, “The Senate is not a parliamentary speedway. Nor should it be.” Former Republican Senator Bill Armstrong said, “Having served in the majority and in the minority, I know it’s worthwhile to have the minority empowered. As a conservative, I think there is a value to having a constraint on the majority.”

My colleagues should defend their judges, but defend them without tearing down our Constitution and our Founding Fathers, or destroying the rules and character of the United States Senate. Defend your judges without ceding dangerous and corruptive levels of power to this Administration. Defend your judges without erasing 214 years of wisdom and sacrifice that raised this nation from tyranny and spread freedom across the globe.

Our Founding Fathers would shudder to see how easily forces outside the mainstream now seem to effortlessly push some Senate leaders toward conduct the American people don't want from their elected leaders: Abusing power. Inserting the government into our private lives. Injecting religion into debates about public policy. Jumping through hoops to ingratiate themselves to their party’s base, while step by step, day by day, real problems that keep American families up at night fall by the wayside here in Washington.

Congress, Washington, and our democracy itself are being tested. We each have to ask ourselves, will we let this continue? To those in this chamber who have reservations about the choices their leadership has made, and who worry about the possible repercussions on our Constitution and democracy, look at history and find the courage to do what’s right. History has always remembered those who are courageous, and will remember the courageous few who lived up to their responsibility and spoke truth to power when the Senate was tested – so that power did not go unchecked.

The Senate and the country need Senators of courage who are prepared to make their mark on history by standing with past profiles in courage, and defending not party, not partisanship, but defending principle and democracy itself.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Kerry was one of two Senators who tried for a filibuster on Alito -- But he also tends to waffle
Kerry and Kennedy showed the spine to try and get a filibuster against Alito. For that he deserves admiration.

But he can also be a waffler. He's my Senator and I like him, but he does waffle at times. So he could take those words back.

My basic point is tyhat the republicans pulled out all the stops to ram through whatever they wanted. Outr sense of decorum -- or whatever -- keeps us from getting anything done when the going gets tough. Or the thought of a fight prevents us from even trying too often.

If the GOP is going to use parlimentary rules to scuttle us, we ought to use them tpo advance the things we supposedly stand for.

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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Playing their game isn't winning strategy
All we are doing is getting our asses kicked and then boxing ourselves in while selling the people out and short.
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DuaneBidoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-22-10 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
29. balls
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