Sorry Biden, but child care tax credits and IRA matching won't do shit for me.

[Hello_Kitty]

Nor for a lot of unemployed people in this country. We need jobs, not tax cuts. Don't tell me tax cuts lead to jobs because everyone knows they don't. And WTF is this IRA thing but YET ANOTHER gubmint giveaway to Wall Street.

[Captain Hilts]

1. Same here. Won't make me eligible to buy health insurance, etc. nt

[Rosa Luxemburg]

2. we need to start making things and exporting them

using our own workers

[here_is_to_hope]

11. +1! eom

[golfguru]

76. We are priced out of the export market

China and India have 8 times the labor force we have and
they work for 1/8th of our wages.

In the last decade their manufacturing capacity has taken
a giant leap upwards with no EPA type regulations and
restrictions. You can't even breathe in some of their industrial
cities, but they can make cheap goods. India can even provide
cheap services since most people speak English there. They now
provide legal research, physician services, accounting services etc.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[4dsc]

4. Lets face it, these folks don't care about the middle class and poor

If its jobs they want to create then we need to dismantle the conservative economic policies that got us to this point in time aka NAFTA etc. We need to enforce the Smoot-Hawley act immediately if not sooner too.

[tblue]

9. Systemic change.

Should have started a year ago, but there was no vision and no will. Just some tweaks. I didn't vote for tweaks. Oh wait -- I guess I did.

[underpants]

77. oh fucking bullshit

their entire plan is for the middle class. That is the best way to get the economy going (and yes that includes WIC cards).

You need to understand that the tax cut (he did cut taxes) and programs like the Clunkers program were geared towards and were effective in reaching the middle class.

[hobbit709]

5. Got no kids, got no IRA, got no real income

so it don't do shit for me either.

[Mimosa]

33. Same here, Thanks for nuttin' Joe. n/t

[phleshdef]

63. Sounds me like you don't have many bills to worry about then.

Unless you have some health problem you can't afford to pay for, what the fuck is your problem?

[hobbit709]

73. Besides putting up with people asking rude questions?

I have no real income because because I'm trying to get on disability. I have plenty of bills which I'm keeping up with through the death benefits from my wife who passed away last summer. I have medical problems for which at least I have coverage through the VA.

[cherokeeprogressive]

84. You are some piece of work.

[tblue]

6. Pretty weak, huh? The audacity of crumbs.

I feel like I'm watching a train wreck in slo-mo.

[Donnachaidh]

15. that would be an awesome bumper sticker

"the audacity of crumbs" -- love it :rofl:

[Joanne98]

32. Good one.

[phantom power]

8. Our fearless leaders to not appear to understand what 10% unemployment means.

[we can do it]

10. Enough of the Pay for Procreation, the Earth Can't Support People Already Living

and fuck the tax cut shit already....JOBS support people, preferably good paying union jobs with benefits

[smoogatz]

12. Both of these ideas would be incredible boons to my family.

Childcare is fucking KILLING us; and the IRA thing would be great, too. But yeah--is there some rule that you can't help middle class families AND the unemployed? It's easy to create jobs: half the damn country's falling apart, the other half could use a coat of paint at the very least. You fix stuff, you put people to work, they pay taxes and buy stuff, the economy gets moving again, private sector jobs return. Google FDR, for chrissakes.

[Hello_Kitty]

13. Oddly enough, many of the unemployed are people with the skills to do that work.

Lots of construction and tech folks out of work right now.

[smoogatz]

14. Yep.

It's actually a great opportunity to fix stuff--build schools, replace bridges, do the infrastructure projects we've been deferring for a generation now. But if you're a wingnut, that's all dangerous socialism--until you're the governor of Minnesota and a major highway bridge collapses, that is.

[niyad]

16. but you don't understand, we have to spend SEVEN HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS A DAY

on the wars in iraq and afghanistan.

that is so much more important than taking care of our people, our land. . .

[smoogatz]

19. Well, there's a tremendous profit to be made on war.

Fixing bridges? Not so much.

[Jennicut]

23. Childcare is ridiculous. I worked in childcare. They owners pay the workers little

and pocket the rest. These are the people who take care of your children every day...and get paid practically nothing to do it.
I am going to be a pre school teacher soon, after I finish my student teaching. I will get paid little for that too, but at least I love children so it is worth being happy in a job.

[smoogatz]

24. We pay our babysitters $10/hr.

We get top-flight people that way--mostly nice Lutheran college girls majoring in elementary ed. They tidy up, do dishes, fold laundry, etc. when our daughter's napping. It's hella expensive, but the U where we both work doesn't offer any childcare for kids under 2, and we couldn't both do our jobs without it (and we can't live on just one of our crappy salaries). Basically our thinking is that we value our kids, so we try to pay as well as we can to get the best people--and we pay direct to the sitter, not to some scammer running a daycare. So far, so good--except, you know, we're broke.

[Jennicut]

26. Good for you. I babysat throughout my teen years and never had to get another

job. It started my love for kids. (I am a Lutheran too.)

[CTyankee]

58. Congratulations! I'm going to bet that you'll be a wonderful teacher!

Some of the nicest, and best people I know are teachers.

Pre school sounds so nice! Kids are so precious at that age (any age actually but the little ones are extra so).

Wonderful! And you'll be able to be home when your kids are home...that's great.

[stray cat]

17. I hate to point out that you are not the only one he is thinking about

so whats the way to get efficient and productive job creation?

[Hello_Kitty]

21. LOL. It's plainly obvious they weren't thinking about someone like me.

I might as well not exist to them now that I'm unemployed.

so whats the way to get efficient and productive job creation?

It's not that hard to figure out. Infrastructure repair, green energy development, high speed rail, etc.

[stray cat]

18. I don't need unemployment or food stamps - but are happy to see money go to both

and its the best stimulus money as far as bang for the buck you can get.

[Hello_Kitty]

22. And tax cuts are not a good stimulus, nor are more dollars going to Wall Street.

Look, I understand what they're doing here. They're taking a page out of the Clinton book and giving middle class parents a valentine. Fine, whatever, but don't call it job creation.

[Vinca]

20. If tax cuts produced jobs, we should have more jobs than people.

The disastrous 8 years of Bush would have been an economic boom as opposed to a near depression.

[butterfly77]

43. They have put them in,,

the recovery bill,cap and trade but I don't know if it passed,farming subsidies and all other bills which hasn't changed a damn thing.

[zulchzulu]

25. Pet care tax credits!!!!

They are child replacements, so what the hay...

[Hello_Kitty]

27. Why not? eom

[treestar]

28. Why is an IRA a giveaway to Wall street?

DU is really jumping the shark. Who wouldn't want to save more for their retirement if they could?

And if other people are helped, they have more to spend and that helps create jobs. It doesn't have to be me personally who is helped.

[Hello_Kitty]

29. Oh hi. You again.

Gee, how could the federal government matching IRA contributions possibly be a giveaway to Wall Street? I'm sure if you concentrate really hard it will come to you. Not to mention a subsidy to shitty employers.

And if other people are helped, they have more to spend and that helps create jobs. It doesn't have to be me personally who is helped.

I don't subscribe to trickle down hooha about tax cuts no matter who is spouting it.

[treestar]

30. What trickle down hoo-hah, this is middle class stuff!

It is not tax cuts for the rich! It won't help me but I'm not going to complain!

If you have an IRA you have savings for retirement! You get to take the money back out after retirement age. It is wise to have these to supplement Social security. What can be wrong with them? If you just put your retirement savings in a savings account, all you will get is interest, which is pretty low, and that is why people don't do that.

I'll never understand you all who hate Wall Street so much that you'd rather see people be poor. 1929 was a stock market crash, that meant a Depression. You'd have been jumping for joy because Wall Street crashed. It does not in fact make it better for the little guy for Wall Street to do poorly. This is dumb.

[GinaMaria]

34. Tax cuts in general are not a good way to stimulate the economy

Things like food stamps and unemployment benefits iirc, return 1.40 for every 1.00 spent. These two are the heavy hitters in economy stimulating. Tax cuts don't give us the return we need. Doesn't matter who they are for.

[treestar]

47. I can understand that

It's just being against them because they help someone else but not me that gets me arguing.

[GinaMaria]

74. I think Hello Kitty was saying the same thing

I did. I was just trying to clarify.

[Hello_Kitty]

36. My IRA is gone. I had to live on it after I lost my job to outsourcing.

And I hate Wall Street because they shit on people.

[treestar]

48. But getting another job would be more likely if the stock market went up

again.

[TheKentuckian]

37. The stock market can be at a trillion and mean nothing to the average person

The economy of the wealthy and the economy of the workers has been sundered. Anyone who pretends that the big money will pass anything down is either lying, insane, stupid, or blind.

[treestar]

49. It may not pass down well but it does to some degree

Cheering against it is just dumb.

Wall Street doesn't benefit me directly, but I can make out that if it crashes, so do people's jobs, and there go my customers. So even my self interest is beyond just what benefits me directly.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joanne98]

31. I know. More of nothing.

[SoxFan]

39. Go vote for Kucinich and have a nice little pitty party

[phleshdef]

65. You must be talking about your own post.

Because giving everyday people a chunk of money back to pay for childcare costs, or helping them pay for taking care of their elderly parents or helping them lower student loan repayment is definately the kind of middle class relief ideas that the administration should have been pushing for all ready. To say that is "nothing" is disingenius, out of touch bullshit and shows that you are another naysayer for the sake of being a naysayer with an opinion completely lacking in credibility.

[harun]

35. Won't do sh*t for me either.

[SoxFan]

38. And it is all about you, isn't it?

:eyes:

Helping working parents and middle class families trying to save for retirement...what was that bastard thinking!

[JoePhilly]

55. Yup ...

One year ago ... everyone I know was afraid that their job would disappear the next day.

One year later ... that's not the case. The trend in job loss has slowed significantly.

That's no comfort to some one out of work ... but the poster can be DAMN sure that the GOP does not care one tiny crap.

Things are turning around .. but contrary to popular opinion, the government can't just manufacture jobs.

Our problem on the left is that of one of use gets something ... like this child tax credit (which I can't get because I make too much) ... then we get angry ... and we walk away.

And the GOP wins.

[Scout]

57. no, no, it's all about YOU

so fuck the rest of us!

[JoePhilly]

59. You should read my post .... its about us.

The problem is that too many of "us" are demanding to be first in line.

And while we fight with each other ... the GOP closes ranks, and takes our lunch money.

This endless bickering on the left is a key part of the problem ... its tells our elected Democratic leaders that WE can't agree on what we on the left want.

Do you think they have a spine?? No way.

They want us to tell them what to do ... and we spend our time bickering.

And then WE ... all of US ... get nothing.

And the GOP laughs right in our face.

[Scout]

91. i wasn't talking to you... n/t

[paulk]

40. it's more of the same trickle down economics we've seen before

and there's nothing in this latest stimulus proposal that does a thing for me, either.

[FrenchieCat]

42. How is reducing one's tax liability for child care paid "trickle down"?

That's what I want to know.
These are going to be dollars in people's pocket.

There are many folks out there who spend a big portion of their salaries,
paying for someone to watch their child, i.e., nursery school and after school programs....
while they work to pay for that.

So how is this trickle down?
I don't get it, obviously.

[paulk]

44. you need to have a job - a job where you're actually making

enough money to pay taxes, for this tax credit to put "money in your pocket".

These sort of proposals are, for me at least, just a variation on the classic trickle down model of giving tax breaks to the wealthy with the idea that they will "trickle down" to the rest of us.

The Obama administration needs to come up with programs that directly create jobs, not this sort of dancing around the edges. They have consistantly underestimated how bad off our economy is, and this seems more of the same.

[FrenchieCat]

45. So you think people with children don't pay taxes?

Child care credits max out for those making over a certain amount.
It is not a credit that helps the wealthy. Sorry.
It is a credit for those who pay a lot of child care vis-a-vis the rate of their earnings.

[Hello_Kitty]

51. It's nonrefundable, Frenchie. eom

[high density]

50. How in the hell is it trickle down when it goes directly to people?

Many in the middle class will benefit from these ideas. Jobs is a high priority issue for sure, but that doesn't mean he should ignore the 85+% of people that do have a job.

[Hello_Kitty]

52. All income tax cuts go directly to people.

Now you can argue that lower income people are more likely to spend theirs right away but even then, tax cuts aren't as stimulative as direct assistance like food stamps or unemployment.

This child care tax credit is nonrefundable so not too many people are really going to benefit from it and most of the ones who do will be closer to the $85K threshold. That means the money saved is more likely to go to paying off debts or saving than directly into the economy.

[high density]

54. The poster was calling it "trickle down"

It's not trickle down. You're now going off on another tangent where you don't agree with the proposed programs. I think the issue is that we've focused already on expanding unemployment benefits and there's only so much political willpower in regards to these social programs. Concentrating on the middle class seems smart politically, plus most of us could certainly use the help just as much as the unemployed.

[paulk]

79. the classic definition of trickle down economics is to give

tax breaks to the wealthy which then "trickle down" to the rest of us ... the new model seems to be giving tax breaks to the employed middle class (those with children, anyway) so that it trickles down to the poor (who don't make enough to even pay taxes) and jobless.

It is still seeding the economy through tax breaks rather than directly employing people, and, afaic, it's the same model.

[high density]

80. No it's helping out those who do have jobs

Trickle down is giving the millionaires tax cuts so they build more pools and employ more pool boys. The modern US middle class is not "wealthy" by any definition except your own.

[paulk]

81. I never said the middle class was wealthy

can't any of you apologists argue like grownups?

The Obama admin is missing the boat again - the problem is unemployment and underemployment. The country needs jobs, not this sort of election year pandering.

[phleshdef]

60. Wow. You really don't know what "trickle down" even means. How embarassing.

I'll give you a hint though. Tax breaks for middle class people, regardless of how effective one feels they might be, have NOTHING to do with trickle down economic. Next time, try looking up what trickle down means before you start commenting on it, it will save you some embarassment later on.

[paulk]

78. you know, if I had any respect for the shit you post on here

I might argue the point - but I'm tired of assholes like you on this board who do nothing but insult other DUers.

Take your condescending attitude and shove it up your ass, "phleshdef".

[inna]

41. Exactly. KR

[Phx_Dem]

46. I don't have kids either, but ALOT of other people do.

It's not about YOU, individually, it's about the American middle class collectively, most of whom DO have children.

You sound like the seniors who were angry about the suggestion that people might get to buy into Medicare because they thought it might unfairly impact them. Or the reports (possibly erroneous?) about Mass voters voting against Coakley because of health care -- they already have it and don't want to have to pay more so everyone else can have what they have. Selfish much?

[Hello_Kitty]

53. Like I said elsewhere, I understand why they're doing this.

It's a Clinton-esque gesture toward what they consider a very important voting bloc. But the thing is, this tax credit is non-refundable, which means the people who could use help the most will not be getting any.

[calico1]

56. I don't even have kids so that is useless to me. n/t

[phleshdef]

61. These are just proposals for the standard budget bill, not a new stimilus or jobs bill.

So expecting some massively awesome magic bullet in this year's budget bill to help you is rather ridiculous to begin with.

[AngryAmish]

62. Child care is really expensive

Our nanny costs a lot. A tax break would be great.

But a tax credit for school tuition would be even better. Schools cost 7-15k a year around here.

[Tailormyst]

64. Yup- me either

No 401k- kids are to old for childcare. People need jobs, people need job security. Incredibly tired of administration's, Dem or Rep, "trickle down" thinking. At some point, if they continue to behave like they believe the billionaires are going to "do the right thing", then I have to say either they are stupid or they are liars.

[phleshdef]

67. This is for the annual budget, not for a jobs bill. And you have no clue what trickle down means...

...if you think direct middle class tax breaks are trickle down thinking. Its the exact opposite of trickle down thinking. Its relief at the lower end of the scale, not the higher end of the scale. You should be embarassed as you basically just accused the middle class and the top 2% as being one and the same.

[Tailormyst]

71. Jobs and getting rid of the billionares tax cuts

Until those two things are addressed, I don't think any of these small things will do JACK SHIT to change things. They are a distraction. Now perhaps we could have a conversation without you insulting me. Perhaps I might learn something new from you instead of having the "go fuck yourself" reaction your choice of words in the last sentence is sure to bring about.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CreekDog]

66. This is the Republican plan right?

It isn't? :wtf:

:banghead:

[phleshdef]

68. Wow, you just suggested Republicans would give tax breaks to ordinary families...

...for things like childcare, student loans and caring for elderly parents. Someone must still be buying into the George Bush compassionate conservative bullshit. I think you need to re-evaluate the way Republicans have been doing business, you obviously are confused.

[Hello_Kitty]

70. Republicans would make them nonrefundable. eom

[underpants]

75. You aren't the demographic or the tax target they are looking at

[Hello_Kitty]

88. Honey, I've never been their target demographic, even when I had a job. eom

[JoeyT]

82. Yay.

More subsidizing people for having kids.
It's not bad enough that the tax code is already slanted heavily in their favor.

[ibegurpard]

83. Everyone railing on the OP

for being selfish and short-sighted just keep in mind there are PLENTY of angry people out there who feel the same way...and they vote.
Dumping billions into the financial sector while they're losing their jobs and then proposing tax credits when they still have no jobs doesn't help them in the slightest.

[Hello_Kitty]

85. Thank you. That was my visceral reaction to the speech and I know I'm not alone. eom

[girl_interrupted]

87. K&R

[avaistheone1]

86. The unaffordability of health insurance is what is driving most people to the poor house,

but thanks for the peanuts Obama and Biden.

[Skittles]

89. it's all we're gonna get

bandaid fixes

[OnionPatch]

90. Like throwing a shotglass of water on a housefire.

If you have no income, or a tiny income, tax savings are kind of moot.

How about this......Revoke NAFTA and slap taxes on companies that outsource jobs and bring in cheap imports. Until that happens, it's just a race to the bottom and tax cuts aren't going to help one iota. What an insult to the American people. I've really just about had it with the Dems. They're almost as bad as the Republicans.