Teachers are the management, students are the workers.

[boppers]

I expect this thread to sink, but not before a few folks realize that the bosses in the american education *are* the educators, the teachers. That's how people are trained to accept american corporations, by thinking that education=bosses.

Can high school and college students bargain, collectively, with their teachers? Can they have them removed/fired? Can they collectively adjust their workload? Would a teacher step down, if a student was more qualified?

[NJmaverick]

1. I have seen tons of support for teachers who were not teaching their students

but ZERO concern for all the students being harmed by their failure of teachers to do their jobs.

[boppers]

2. We walked out in my HS.

There were strong teacher unions in my state, but students were stronger, on a few days at least.

Should teachers mean more than students?

[NJmaverick]

44. Students should come first, in my opinion

[Celeborn Skywalker]

26. I stand with the unions, always.

And the school should have fired the bad teachers or put them on a growth plan that outlined expectations. There's no way EVERY SINGLE TEACHER at the school deserved to be fired.

[NJmaverick]

34. Many will have be rehired, by firing them all

the district is in a position to hire back the best. As for unions, they are important but not as important as the lives of innocent children.

[JNelson6563]

3. Administration

School system admins hold the power. All the power. You have a very narrow view of how school systems work.

Julie

[boppers]

7. What power does a student have? eom

[JNelson6563]

16. In primary school (K-12) about none.

Except, of course, through their parents.

the real power of a school district is through the administration. What influences that power can range from any number of things.

Julie

[JTFrog]

4. K&R

[whistler162]

5. WOW Mr/Ms.. C. Less!

Makes less sense with each reading!

[Catshrink]

6. Wrong.

Just so you know, qualifications are determined by the state so, if a student is more qualified, he or she would presumably need a certain number of credit hours and a certificate at a minimum. So your idea of "qualified" doesn't fit.

I once had a student who thought he was more qualified than I was, me with a masters in the content area and in education and several years experience, he a 16 year old who had read a book, I guess. So I called his bluff. He thought he could do my job better so I let him do my job. He studied the material and then tried to present it. After the novelty wore off with his fellow students, they started drifting away, not paying attention and chatting with each other. He handed out a worksheet on the material he'd presented - no one understood it. He became frustrated and angry with his fellow students because they were "stupid." He finally realized, although wouldn't admit, that there is a lot more to teaching than standing up in front of a class and spewing facts.

Teachers are caught in the middle of administrators and politicians and students. There are unions to protect teachers from pissed off parents who don't like that fact that little Bobby got a B and not the A he "deserved" or whose kid got nailed for cheating. Unions protect teachers from students who don't like that fact that a teacher has expectations of students. Unions are supposed to protect teachers from arbitrary firing by administrators without cause (although there are ways around this).

[boppers]

9. I did it in the 4th grade.

Leading a class takes work, no doubt, I had a teacher play the same game as you did. It's tough work. I didn't give up though, and call others "stupid" (though I hope you slammed that kid into whatever GATE or similar programs you have).

As far as "arbitrary" firings, if 93% of your students failed, what would you expect?

[Catshrink]

25. Wow! A 9 year old more "qualified" than a teacher!

If that isn't hubris I don't know what is.

Read the information posted here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7830386&mesg_id=7830386

The 93% failure rate is a snapshot. And, 93% of the students of all the teachers didn't fail. This action was unwarranted and unprecedented. Let's see what the Teach for America kids can do. :rofl:

[karynnj]

31. Not to mention - where did the kids stand when they entered the grade?

If you measuring 6th graders and all came in at about 3rd grade level, 93% could be good if all tested at least 5th grade and a few passed as 6th.

[Dinger]

38. But You're Right : )

:) :thumbsup: :hi:

[tonysam]

41. The fact is teachers have NO power at all. None.

It is such a lopsided relationship between teachers and administrators, it isn't even funny. Unions don't even level out the playing field; the unions are hopelessly overmatched by the taxpayer-subsidized districts which support the administrators. And they are often in collusion with districts in order to help a wayward administrator while the teacher loses his or her job and career in the process.

An individual teacher is basically alone going up against a huge bureaucracy which has almost unlimited funds to fight them in the hearing and court system.

[cornermouse]

8. Why stop with teachers?

Let's apply it to parents...

Parents are the management, students are the workers.

I expect this thread to sink, but not before a few folks realize that the bosses in the american home *are* the parents, the moms and dads. That's how people are trained to accept american corporations, by thinking that parents=bosses.

Can high school and college students bargain, collectively, with their parents? Can they have them removed/fired (when there is no child and/or drug abuse in the home)? Can they collectively adjust their workload? Would a parent step down, if the child was more qualified?

Makes about as much sense as the teacher post; which is to say it makes no sense, no argument... And yes, this was written with sarcasm.

[boppers]

11. My parents charged me and my brothers rent to live at home... from age 12 on.

We worked for the family business, and did not have a choice to work for another business.

I'm not sure about your sarcasm, other than maybe you *not* understanding that criminal slave labor occurs in family businesses, and that this kind of abuse is widespread, and justified.

It's often mocked.

[ipaint]

10. Some folks will twist themselves into knots to

justify Obama's right wing conservative policies. Good luck with that one.

[jefferson_dem]

13. Expecting an excellent American public education system, accountability for underperforming teachers

and rewards for those who demonstrate success and achievement = "right wing conservative policies"? I guess the alternative = "left wing liberal policies" in your world. Good luck with that.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dkf]

21. What accountability is there?

The fact you have to get rid of everybody to fix the problem means you couldn't make the changes along the way and it got to a point that it was beyond making a few changes.

[stray cat]

12. DU generally doesn't expect competence from workers ie people who can actually do a job

we should just pay everyone whether they do a decent job or not - at least for teachers or other union members

[tranche]

27. +1

[dionysus]

32. ding ding ding

[spoony]

52. Lol, another union hater.

Gotta love the New Democrats.

[vadawg]

53. +1000 there should be a level of competance for every job, even politicians..

[last_texas_dem]

14. Umm, no...

[dkf]

15. Are you kidding?

The people are the management the teachers are the workers and the kids are the results.

Since when did we get so screwed in our concept of the role of government which is to serve the people. Teachers are public servants as are all Federal state and city employees.

[Jennicut]

17. I have been failed by teachers. No one noticed I was dyslexic.

I was failed in elementary school, junior high, and high school by some pretty crappy teachers being dyslexic and having major issues with math. I got away with it as I was able to do well enough in English. It took me 1 hour to read a few pages in a book that took everyone else 20 minutes. I did like to read so I stuck with it. By the time high school came, it was the 90's and I could spell check on my word processor. My spelling is still horrible to this day but computers make that easier. My math was still terrible. I failed geometry twice, sophomore year and in summer school but finally passed with a C junior year. I couldn't tell time on a clock, do geometry, do decimal points, fractions, algebra, etc. I was told I didn't try hard enough...didn't apply myself. I was given extra tutoring but no one noticed that I got my left and right mixed up constantly. I didn't know I had math dyslexic issues until I was tested as an adult...at 30! I get lost driving sometimes. Wish someone had noticed and I could have gotten the right help.

I really don't care what someone calls the relationship between students and teachers. Sometimes it works and sometimes they fail. No one is perfect.

[trayfoot]

18. I've been in education for a very long time.

Are there poor teachers - of course, there are! This profession is like any other. You will always have some "bad apples". But, to assume that the teacher is "management" is ludicrous on its face. School administrations, along with less than knowledgeable politicians and parents are the decision makers. Depending on where a teacher teaches can make a HUGE difference as to success or failure. When administrators actually value instruction, teachers succeed. When parents value education, teachers succeed. If you teach in a division where these factors are non-existant, then success goes down and failures go up. People cannot judge today's system of public education on their own past experiences! Things are DRASTICALLY changed from the 50s stereotypes! I challenge any politician, parent, or school administrator to come in and deal with the problems and then say "it's the teachers' fault!"

[slackmaster]

19. Teachers are technical people, students are students

K&U

:kick:

[Zoeisright]

22. Wow. What a dumb post.

Teachers are hardly 'bosses'. They have a fucking tough job. If you don't see that, you're pretty hopeless. And uneducated.

[Catshrink]

24. +1

[Dinger]

36. + Another 1 (nt)

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Doremus]

28. Several decades ago teachers might have been "management." No longer.

At best they are in low-level managerial type positions:

Told what to teach, when to teach it and how. They have no autonomy with which to negotiate, so your analogy is flawed.

[activa8tr]

30. I don't know where you teach, but in my school district, if I were to

walk into a Junior English class, for instance, each teacher is teaching differently, using different materials, not all the same novels, maybe one or two of the same, like Shakespeare, but NOT everything is equal in all classes.

Teachers STILL have SOME autonomy as to how and what to teach at the high school level in some courses, but certainly NOT in others. I assume college prep Algebra is about the same for all, there's not too many ways you can vary what's required there, or in French or Latin, or Chemistry, for instance. Teaching music and art, or band or drama, certainly important, but there's not "one size fits all" there, as there would be in Biology.

If you're a good teacher, you teach what most people have agreed is important material for the grade level and the subject. But good teachers are not about teaching "the subject"; they are about teaching and learning for and about and with "the student"! Teaching is not lecturing, checking off a "to-be-learned" list, day by day. Teaching is about reaching out to young men and women, and helping each of them become best equipped for their futures. Teaching is more human relations work, and coaching both the learning process and the learner than it is about anything else.

[Skidmore]

29. You are so on target. Why do people think that the religious right has

worked so hard to replace teachers and curricula or to opt out of the educational system altogether? The time to inculcate values and habits is when a person is young and can't argue.

[dionysus]

33. i lost IQ points reading this.

:crazy:

[Dinger]

37. You Too? (nt)

[Dinger]

35. Take this repuglican FLAMBAIT And Shove It. UNREC

Enough is fucking enough.

[Starry Messenger]

39. OMG What is this I don't even

Really? The fail is strong with this one, young jedis. I know you have this tree/forest problem sometimes but really it's not necessary to just hit *post* whenever your neurons fire with this stuff.

[dionysus]

40. never underestimate teh fail...

:rofl:

[tonysam]

42. They aren't "management" at all--they have utterly no control

over their jobs even though they miscategorized by the federal government as "professionals."

Being a "professional" denotes having discretion in the performance of his or her job. This is definitely NOT true for teachers in education because public education is a top-down organization run very much along the lines of the military.

[Supersedeas]

43. apparently, student aggragate test scores have the power to manage teachers

[LWolf]

45. What a mountain of elephant dung.

Schools are not corporations. They are not factories, although politicians like the factory and corporate models.

My students aren't my employees. They are my responsibilities. They are the core of the team that works together to provide opportunities to them, within the limits our resources provide.

[Dinger]

46. He Better Remember That Teachers Vote

This race to the bottom shit is nclb on steroids.

[MadHound]

47. I love how people with absolutely no experience in a school

Try and tell us what goes on inside a school.

Let's see, there are administrators, who make a lot of the big decisions at both the whole school level and at the district level. Then there is the school board, which, depending on the whim of the voters, can have some wonderful, experienced caring people on it whom you can trust with a school district, or which can contain RW fundies and other whackjobs with agendas who can tear apart a school district.

Then let us not forget the voter, who controls how much money teachers, and schools as a whole get. And since somebody idiotically decided that all school funding issues need a super majority of votes to pass, there are generally enough whackjob voters, those who don't like taxes, or don't like kids, or who still hold a vendetta against schools thirty years after they got caught and punished for doing something stupid at school, that the funding ballot doesn't pass and schools continue to have to make do with what little money they have.

But hey, thanks for the entertaining wrinkle in DU's whack a teacher contest, it certainly was one of the more unique ones.

[jonnyblitz]

48. that's like saying the cashiers in a store are managment and

the shoppers are the workers. :crazy:

[Dinger]

49. War Is Peace, Ignorance Is strength, I Know How That Goes

Some people need to get a clue, just one.

[jonnyblitz]

50. no kidding. a smart ass like me has a hard time holding back

when i read some of this stuff. :crazy:

[QC]

51. This might well be the most profoundly stupid thing ever posted on DU.

I am stricken with, not exactly admiration, but definitely a sort of wonder.