Kucinich Doesn't Speak For Me.

[mr715]

I support Democrats and I do not advocate the loss of seats in Congress to the opposition party.

Mr. Kucinich or Congressman Kucinich (I do not call him Dennis because he is not a personal friend) has shown for the past few years that he is more interested in grandstanding, in creating issues for his national base, than he is interested in representing the issues of his district.

Kucinich is not a national leader, nor is he a successful representative of his city.

He failed as a mayor because he appointed personal friends to positions of authority and refused to compromise. This might have led to the city's complete economic collapse and it took a boom economy to fix the problems he directly caused. Do not pull the "he spoke truth and Cleveland is better for it". Its not. Under his watch, the RIVER caught on a fire.

I support Democrats that care more about the gestalt than the individual dots - especially because most democrats have a better command of issues than ideologues.

Mr. Kucinich has sold out his principles many times before. He gets a pass because he looks meek, because he talks like a religious leader, and because he may be a decent guy.

But he doesn't speak for me. I support my President (and I didn't in the primaries, so there.)

I support a Democratic majority in 2010. 2012. 2014. 2016.

I support a Democratic majority that will make PROGRESS on health care, on the environment, on the economy, on taxes.

I support realists that know that no social program rose, fully formed, from Zeus' head.

I support humility and willingness to compromise for the betterment of all Americans.

I support Democrats, and I would vote for Kucinich over a Republican (or even a conservative Democratic).


But he doesn't speak for me.

[LakeSamish706]

1. Whatever! n/t

[Go2Peace]

49. the OP has the right to make democratic choices even within the party

The OP is critical of a "Democrat".

Now according to a great many who frequent this forum criticizing democrats is for scoundrels.

I support the OPs democratic right to criticize even Democrats and to work toward a Democratic Party that they would like to see. The OP is not a "Republican", nor are they a "closet Freeper", nor are they "not a Democrat".

I refuse to label the OP or call them names because they wish to make democratic choices within the party and not support even democrats who advocate different approaches. This is just the way democracy works.

I will, however, say I profoundly disagree with their approach and criticisms and I will support Kucinich's re-election when the time comes and others like him.

[AnOhioan]

2. He does speak for me though...I guess we cancel eachother out

[Oregone]

3. Are you in his district or something?

Because if you aren't, its not his job to speak for you and he is rightful to not give a fuck

[HughMoran]

9. Oh, the "shut the fuck up talking about a politician here on DU if he isn't in your district"

card.

That is one of the single most pathetic defenses of the indefensible that I've ever seen on DU.

[Oregone]

12. Sort of a continuation on other threads

People calling for blanket 'firings' of certain reps, regardless of their reasoning, if their votes don't line up with their personal ideology. Well Im sorry. Thats just not how things are designed to work and you know it really.

Im not saying "shut the fuck up". Im saying, no one that matters gives a fuck. They are free to keep talking.

[mr715]

13. I don't want his fired.

I want his to grow the hell up.

[HughMoran]

16. I think a lot of people in his district would like to see HCR passed

You have to agree that he does not speak for all Dems in his district.

[Oregone]

20. Then they will have an opportunity to hold him accountable

In the meantime, he is going to keep being the Kucinich they voted for. I mean, really...is he surprising *anyone* here?

[HughMoran]

22. I am surprised actually

In the past, we've always been able to explain away some of his votes as "they weren't needed anyway". In fact, I'd say a solid majority of his supporters here have used that logic in the past. I always thought that, when push comes to shove, Kucinich is a Democrat and would not switch sides when he has an open shot with 2 seconds remaining in the game. If he is responsible for reform being nixed and we don't get back to it for another decade or more, will you still support his 'all or nothing stance', knowing that thousands of people died due to lack of insurance and who thus put off going to the doctor until their cancer is stage 3?

[Oregone]

29. "thousands of people died due to lack of insurance"

More often, people die from lack of access to care (even those with insurance). Some do not feel that subsidizing low actuarial valued private policies will allow low income Americans access to necessary care to prevent death. Its a healthy difference of opinion, as long as it is coming from an honest place. What I find unhealthy is steamrolling such opposition in favor of a session of 'group think'.

[HughMoran]

30. Yes, 50 years of debate including a failed attempt 16 years ago is "steamrolling"!

You are the one defending allowing our "representatives" to "represent" us in Congress.

Well, my friend, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID TO COME UP WITH THIS BILL OVER A ONE YEAR PERIOD. This is how our system works and YOU have affirmed that in your defense of Kucinich in this very thread. So which way do you want it? We elect representatives who come up with the best compromise possible (that you call "steamrolling the opposition"), or we have a coup and appoint a dictator who decides for us what sort of "universal" coverage we should have?

You can't have it both ways.

[Oregone]

32. Fine, you came up with a compromise.....why are you now trying to tar and feather Kucinich?

Pass your shit, fine. Im not sure what this other charade is about.

[HughMoran]

33. Kucinich has said he'll happily be the one person on the planet to kill this bill

Why else do you think people are so up in arms about what he said on Countdown tonight?

[Oregone]

35. So?

If he has the power to do so, the Democrats fucked up in their compromising and triangulation. Otherwise, he is a zero. Im not sure whats up with the alligator tears. Suck it up and get over it.

[HughMoran]

37. Yeah, not having insurance is all about crocodile tears

Why so uncaring and smug when you run out of defenses for Kuch?

Can't you just say "perhaps he's a bit overboard on this"?

[Oregone]

39. And having insurance you can't afford to use isn't all that and a bag of chips

Perhaps he is, but principles are a bit refreshing in light of the dreadful year of capitulation on this bill, to be honest. I just am not exactly hip with the 5 minutes of hate against Kucinich (or any figure left of center for that matter)

[HughMoran]

42. Isn't criticizing even your most "principled" on the left also a proper and principled thing to do

?

I hope you believe that nobody is beyond criticism. The same people who repeatedly say that Obama isn't beyond criticism are getting angry that Kucinich is being criticized tonight. The same people who accuse those who would defend Obama of being "Obamabots" can't see that not allowing Kuch to be criticized is wildly hypocritical. Kucinich stuck his nose into this issue tonight and, with a rather smug expression on his face, said he would have no problem being the vote that killed HCR. I find that a worthy topic for tonight since it happened tonight, and I find his stance on this to be worthy of criticism.

[Oregone]

43. Sure, if thats your principles, stick to em

But you and I both know this is about alienating someone who isn't toeing the party line

[HughMoran]

44. I want HCR passed. I don't give a shit who gets on TV and says "I'll kill it"

That person is going to be attacked by me. I've ripped Stupak and Lieberman and others new ass holes on multiple occasions (perhaps hundreds of posts over months.) Kuch has been criticized by me on perhaps 3 days in the past 6 months. I tear up Stupak when he pisses me off and I tear up Kuch when he pisses me off. Broad brush "you know what I'm talkin' 'bout" statements are rarely accurate.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HughMoran]

100. a

[HughMoran]

104. c

[Dr.Phool]

63. Dennis is unbeatable in his district.

People were only pissed off because he ran for Prez again in 2008.

He's jumped into situations, and won, where they tried to close inner-city hospitals. When LTV Steal decided to let two blast furnaces cave in, effectively shutting down the steel mill permanently, he rushed down there at 2:00am to try to put a stop to it. It worked, and saved thousands or good paying union jobs.

[mr715]

11. Ah, so he should work for his district then.

And vote for a bill that is OVERWHELMING supported by his district.

Or we could ignore that.

This is about Americans, not Kucinich.

[AnOhioan]

15. Care to come up with hard numbers??

I thought not

[HughMoran]

19. We were hoping that you, his constituent, would provide the numbers

Please feel free to post the overwhelming desire of his voters to kill HCR for another decade - without compromise as he will not compromise no matter what.

[AnOhioan]

25. If the bill being considered was actually reform...

beyond a few cosmetic changes...and did not force the American public into a system already driven to extremes by the profit motive, then maybe it would have more support.

As it is, most people I have spoken with are no fans of this bill.


And btw, due to a recent move, I am no longer in Dennis' district, but I will continue to support him and his campaigns.

[HughMoran]

26. I am a huge fan of this bill

I work for a small business where a family plan is $36k per year. Same plan was $12k at my old, large company job. Exchanges will allow me to get the same plan for 15k /year (Kaiser foundation numbers) - a $21,000 /year savings. That's not "a few cosmetic changes.

Allowing me to cover my kids 'till their 27 is not "cosmetic"

Allowing my boss to actually have a different insurance carrier due to her pre-existing condition is not a "cosmetic" change.

Preventing my daughters from being kicked off of care like my ex-wife was after she had complications after child birth is not "cosmetic" change.

I could go on and on - you should actually know something about the reform before you repeat the rhetoric you read here.

[Mz Pip]

45. +1

If nothing gets passed because it isn't good enough, or pure enough then I doubt there is much of a chance that HCR of any kind will ever be passed.

If these changes that are now being proposed were just "cosmetic" then I doubt there would be the huge fight going on to stop HCR. There is a lot more at stake and the health care industry would not be fighting this tooth and nail if it were just a big giveaway to them.

[Oregone]

17. Well you didn't vote for this bill. You voted for a representative based on their campaign

His lack of support comes as no surprise based on his history and past rhetoric.

If you have issue in great numbers about this, you will have a chance to hold him accountable.

[tranche]

18. Unless everyone on DU is from his district, I don't see why we see his crap everyday.

Stupid point you're making there. There's logic for ya. Start a forum for only those from Dennis's district and only they can read his press releases.

[demwing]

76. Then, by your logic, Kucinich should speak only to those in his district

and only on issues relevant to his district.

[Skittles]

4. pretty much why we are not getting anywhere

[Jennicut]

5. Kucinich is like Rahm for me, a lightening rod for others but totally bores me.

Like, I really don't care. He has some principals he likes to stand up for and that is great and all but really nothing gets done when you decide to throw the baby out with the bath water. I don't dislike him nor love him.

[HughMoran]

6. I agree with him on principal,

I've always stood with Kucinich on the issues. I agree with him most of the time & admire him for standing on principal, unlike some Dems (though, to be honest, he'd be toast in many other Congressional districts.) But Kucinich (and his alter ego, Ron Paul), while normally harmless in a group of 435, can cause severe pain (economic & physical) for thousands of people when his inflexibility possibly prevents critical reforms from passing - reforms that require a great deal of compromise to pass by the narrowest of margins. There is a time to take a principled stand and a time for the greater good. In the case of healthcare reform, Kucinich is working against the greater good of the American people and he deserves to be castigated severely for this in my opinion. Kucinich doesn't speak for me at this time.

[FrenchieCat]

7. Barbara Lee Speaks for ME! And she's more liberal than Kucinich!

and she is voting for the HCR bill, and it ain't about her.

[SharonRB]

8. What you said.

I totally agree. Kucinich is letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. We just need to get this done. It will never be perfect.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[w4rma]

14. Bargain with him. Give him a public option. Quit trying to bully progressives. (nt)

[Dawgs]

83. They did give him a public option. He voted against it.

It wasn't as good as DK wanted, so he voted against it. I have a feeling he wouldn't have voted for anything that wasn't single payer. And for that, we will all lose.

[depakid]

21. Your humility and compromise looks weak and ineffectual- and will lose Democratic seats en masse

A lesson that Democrats always seem eager to learn and relearn the hard way.

[Moochy]

23. I care more about the gestalt than I do about your specific factual errors

and the gestalt sucks, it's vague and chock full of generalities. I care not for the individual words or assertions of the post.

[girl gone mad]

24. This bill is the opposite of progress.

[HughMoran]

27. Lie

'nuff said.

It will save me $21k/yr and insure my family has coverage - including my kids up to 27.

[Dr.Phool]

64. That's why they call it "congress".

[Lilith Velkor]

98. BLAM!

:rofl:

[Arkana]

28. Kooch lost me because he'd rather sleep on a warm bed of warped "principles"

and cling to some liberal utopia that will never, ever happen unless every wingnut on earth dies.

FDR and LBJ didn't get the New Deal and Great Society by taking their ball and going home.

[niceypoo]

40. The new deal wasnt corporate because FDR stuck to his principles

LBJ fought for, and got, a SINGLE PAYER system by sticking to his PRINCIPLES.

Those damn, 'libruls!'

If principles are to be damned, what is left? A phony, cowering, hollowed out husk which is what we have for a congress these days.

[Ildem09]

31. Dude, were going to loose seats in 2010

why dont we fight for something we believe in.

[HughMoran]

34. Our representatives did fight

This is the compromise. Kucinich doesn't have support for what he wants, and even with the majority we have we couldn't pass what he wants. His way to "punish" the US for not listening to him is to kill HCR for everybody - all 300 million of us. Rather selfish and uncompromising if you ask me.

[Ildem09]

36. In the words of Ed Rendell

If were going down. lets go down fighting for what we believe in.

[HughMoran]

38. Ed Rendell seems to be fighting for this bill

So?

[Ildem09]

41. in practice I agree with passing the bill

but i do respect DK for his stand. if the vote is really that close you don't think the leadership will give him something in sidecar? Medicare buy-in increased taxes something that makes the bill better. If Stupak can do it so can Kucinich

[Lindsey]

46. No. He does NOT speak for me. He's causing much more harm

than good.

[Ildem09]

48. so Stupak speaks for you?

he's doing the same damn thing

[JoeyT]

61. I wonder how it keeps working out that way.

Right wing Democrats take a stand on principles and the bill and the party immediately shifts to the right to make them happy.
Liberals take a stand on principles and the party screams bloody murder about how they're going to destroy us all.

If the party leadership were really interested in compromise, they'd stick something in there he wanted to make him vote for it or take something out that he hates. You know, like they did for Stupak and Lieberman(Who isn't even in the party) and when they were courting Republican votes (That aren't going to vote for it anyway). Since they refuse to do so, we have to assume compromise isn't their actual goal.

[AllentownJake]

77. Rendell?

That is surprising.

[Dawgs]

84. But we don't have to go down.

:shrug:

[Divine Discontent]

47. Kucinich shows what a true dem should be like. the others are why we get watered down crap

(to state it in a very simple and short manner)

but, best to you, as a fellow Dem

[suzie]

50. True Dems are anti-women, grandstanding egomaniacs?

[Starry Messenger]

52. That would describe Stupak.

[suzie]

54. And Kucinich as well.

[Starry Messenger]

68. Nope. n/t

[dionysus]

92. LOL, he only became "pro-choice" so he wouldn't get embarrassed more then he did

when he ran for president.

[ShortnFiery]

58. Oh stop. I'm also a Catholic like Kucinich. Over the years he's had a change of perspective.

Of all people, democrats should welcome an individual's enlightenment.

After all, so many were quick to forgive Kerry. You can't tell me that he didn't KNOW BETTER than to vote for the Iraq War Resolution? He did so for his career. For all his bravery over The Vietnam War, Kerry sold out on the youth of America when he voted for that Illegal/Immoral Resolution. They (our democratic "leaders") all sold out who voted "aye."



But yet you attack Dennis Kucinich who made the right choice when it comes to SENSELESS WAR.

I guess the moneyed elite love the leagues of "useful idiots" whom they can manipulate at will?

They can't do that to Dennis Kucinich ... they hate it. If there were any way they could kick him out a la Cynthia McKinney, the corporate democratic leadership would not hesitate.



I admire Dennis Kucinich and his LIBERAL democratic counter-part in the Senate, Bernie Sanders, more than words can say.

[suzie]

71. Kerry took an enormous hit, even from his supporters, for his Iraq War vote.

Kucinich supporters refuse to look at anything he's ever done that ordinarily they'd scream about.

I mind Stupak less than Kucinich because Stupak is sticking with his position. Kucinich is simply the worst kind of political opportunist, taking an anti-choice stance for years and then changing it within a period of just a few months because his new constituency wouldn't like it.

Kucinich did his utmost in 2004 to sink the rest of the Democrats. And though his supporters seem unwilling to admit it, Dennis Kucinich was not the only candidate in 2004 who voted against the Iraq War.

Bob Graham did so. Since he has the opposite personality of Kucinich and is respected and liked by his colleagues, they took note of the fact that Graham was at the point of ranting on the Senate Floor.

Since Kucinich is usually at the point of ranting and is always condescending, which of his colleagues would have even paid attention to him?

[Alexander]

94. "Over the years" meaning 2003, when he decided to run for president.

Nice try. Kucinich had a last-minute conversion before his presidential run because he knew he wouldn't win anywhere being pro-life.

[ShortnFiery]

56. + 1000.

OUR FIGHT is not between Democratic and GOP Perspectives but AGAINST forces of Corporate Control, irregardless of Party affiliation.

We have many corporate democrats who are IMO, traitors to our People and, IMO, to our Party.

Dennis Kucinich has the COURAGE to call them out.

May our higher power bless Dennis Kucinich. Yes, he speaks for me. :patriot:

[elocs]

51. Kucinich is the mouse that roars: makes a lot of noise, accomplishes little.

He does cause mass orgasms at DU though.

[JVS]

59. Sounds like Obama!

[ShortnFiery]

60. Yes, we are ORDERED to get "fired-up" for Insurance Cartel Welfare and Senseless War Surges.

Wow! When it's time to "go to the mat" it's seemingly ALWAYS for the BENEFIT mighty corporations and their Moneyed Elite, i.e., the true LEADERS of this nation.

[DCBob]

53. I agree with Dennis on alot of things but what bugs me is that he goes over the top too often...

and makes a fool of himself and hurts the party.

[AllentownJake]

65. I don't think Dennis' actions are on trial by vote in 2010 nationally nt.

[DCBob]

70. I dont think so either...

glad we could agree on that.

[Bluenorthwest]

57. So I assume you are opposed to equal rights

Since you support the President in all, and he says that he's a Christian and that because of that he is against basic human rights for all Americans.
Dennis Kucinich supports equality, considers my family to be human beings of equal rights to others. When he speaks of me, it is not dripping with dogmatic prejudice.
But I speak for myself. A thing you should consider. Joining in on prejudice against one's neighbors as part of a political statement is not impressive to me at all. To do that for mediocre 'reform' is what it is.
Politics is made of networks of trust.

[kjackson227]

62. I agree with you, also. "COMPROMISE" is the magic word...

saying that we either get all or nothing is rather selfish, imho- and I'll bet 31 million people without insurance thinks so as well.

[watercolors]

66. He does not speak for me either

The little Napolean attitude!

[harun]

67. Enjoy your corpo-Dem's then and enjoy complaining about them

accomplishing pro-profit legislation for the next 10 years that does nothing to improve your quality of life in any way.

Enjoy having your kids pay > 200K for their education. Enjoy your kids never being able to own a home (unless they build it out of mud). Enjoy the next war (which your kids will probably have to fight in). Enjoy the for-profit insurance your kids will be forced to buy, where, once they actually need Health Care, realize that for-profit insurance they paid for doesn't reimburse them.

Enjoy, enjoy...

[Berry Cool]

69. I agree with the OP in many ways

but it isn't fair to saddle him with responsibility for the river catching fire. That's one thing that WASN'T his fault. As for the rest...pretty accurate.

[jenmito]

72. Great points. I agree. K&R. n/t

[DevonRex]

73. He doesn't speak for me, either. I have no respect for him after the Ron Paul

thing. Wanted that secessionist freak for his running mate. Good thing nobody voted for him.

[Change Happens]

74. +1, thank you.

[Phx_Dem]

75. He never has and never will speak for me.

:puke:

[azmouse]

78. He will never speak for me.

[Mike 03]

79. Kucinich is intelligent, but not the Holy Saint a lot of Dems like to believe he is.

I have watched him grill Paulson, Bernanke, Geithner, the poor schlep who was tossed in to guide AIG to safety after the former CEO was tossed out. My problem with Kucinich is he doesn't understand very basic things about economics, financial instruments, and he asks questions, doesn't listen to the answers, and keeps plugging on through a bunch of pre-prepared questions I doubt he even writes.

Same questions, over and over and over again, in spite of facts that render the questions moot and irrelevant.

Every now and then he scores a point, but more often than not lately, the guy just seems out of touch and out of time. I think there is a word for him: Anachronism.

[mr715]

81. When does he belong?

I question if he is as intelligent as people think he is. He's got a nice enough vocabulary, but he doesn't impress me with great mental dexterity. He has a position and sticks to it, and can sometimes find a fallacy, but mostly ASSUMES people are dumber than he.


You say he is an anachronism and I like that. When would he be a stronger leader? A better statesman?



M

[Mike 03]

80. Or, if I could put it another way, IMO, the guy is basically the Democratic answer to Ron

Paul.

They both are outspoken, unique, intelligent, but they also are so dogmatic and un-open to other points of view that they come off as a little bit crazy.

[mr715]

82. There a lot to that.

Except Ron Paul has a consistent ideology of insane libertarianism.

Dennis Kucinich is a fascist sometimes, a civil rights leader sometimes, an abortion advocate sometimes, a crystalwaver sometimes, and a technocrat sometimes.

He works backwards. He doesnt have a position, he IS the position. He's a walking litmus test. If he wants to vote some way, it becomes the right thing.


There is no excuse for him to do what he is doing.

[Dawgs]

85. I'll put it a different way - He ONLY speaks for me.

He damn sure doesn't do anything else.

Howard Dean speaks for me. Michael Moore speaks for me. Many people speak for me.

Unfortunately DK just speaks for me. He doesn't lead or vote or do anything else for me.

[Juche]

86. He doesn't speak for me either

I can understand his argument, but the side effect of not passing health reform will be even worse than passing it. And it will be a political/moral disaster for the democratic party.

Kucinich is quite the ideologue. I wonder if the same split that was predicted to happen in the GOP (between the ideological purists and the pragmatists) is going to happen in the dem party.

[firedupdem]

87. Me either. Well said...very well said. n/t

[tallahasseedem]

88. He wont stand for himself either...

http://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2007/03/20/kucinich-is-a-hypocrite

~snip~

Dennis Kucinich says he's insulted. The local congressman and long-shot presidential candidate says it's "an insult to the voters, and the height of cynicism for candidates to refuse to take the public stage and subject themselves to public scrutiny." The congressman's fuming because prominent Nevada Democrats, and several presidential candidates, have forced the cancellation of an August presidential candidate debate, sponsored by Fox News. Most voters would agree with him that politicians "take the public stage and subject themselves to public scrutiny." The only problem is that Kucinich has refused to publicly debate any challenger to his seat since coming to Washington in 1997.

~snip~

[Ikonoklast]

89. If not for all the money he raises *outside* his district, Dennis would lose.

And he NEVER debates a challenger here in Ohio.

NEVER.

[mr715]

90. Speaking truth to power

No doubt.

[Ikonoklast]

91. Hollywood saved his seat last time around.

He was almost out of money, and he was behind in the polls.

Last-minute plea to his west-coast friends for money and a media push put him over the top, but it was a closer thing than the final vote reveals.

His constituency wasn't pleased that he decided to run for the presidency again, after promising them he wouldn't do so.

He broke his promise.

His ego got in the way.

[RedstDem]

93. One things for sure

We need more like him in our gov't

[mkultra]

95. He went from a force for change to force for the status quo

[Hell Hath No Fury]

96. On the issue of this healthcare bill, he speaks for me.

There wasn't a thing about this insurance industry giveaway bill he said in his interview with Lawrence O'Donnell that was not true.

One of these days people here are going to figure it out.

[stranger81]

97. Lucky for you we have a whole party of DLC'ers who DO speak for you.

Why must you begrudge the rest of us who don't believe in that incrementalist bullshit even ONE FREAKING REPRESENTATIVE?

We shouldn't be calling them "Third Way" Democrats anymore. Apparently, it's Their Way or the Highway.

[mr715]

101. They have a coalition

Kucinich does not.

And I'll admit very proudly that the DLC does frequently speak for me.

[flvegan]

99. Your concern is noted. n/t

[Orsino]

102. He speaks for you, all right.

Just not the way that you want, right now.

[freddie mertz]

103. Dennis wins. You lose.