How many DUer's realize that Dennis Kucinich ALREADY voted against the Public Option?

[Dawgs]

Being against the Senate bill is one thing, but pretending that he's against it because it doesn't have a PO is just plain stupid. He already voted against the first House bill that included a public option.

His not supporting of anything that isn't 100% progressive does nothing but hurt millions of Americans.

I don't question his loyalty to liberal values, but I do question his intelligence if he thinks this approach to helping our country will work.

[Jennicut]

1. I think his intentions are probably good but he wants to wait until we get the perfect bill.

We will never get a perfect bill with this current govt.

[vaberella]

24. Actually we'd never get the perfect bill period.

Progressives are a mixed lot. Some will find something going to far and others will say not far enough. There are people on here who are saying they support the PO when they were railing against it before...and I think they're using it's current precarious position to rail some more. For some if it's not medicare for all as in single payer it's not worth having. So we can NEVER have the perfect bill. shit my perfect bill is the government investing in free gym memberships or at least paying for memberships through health insurance.

[ChicagoSuz219]

26. If he's not part of the solution...

...he's part of the problem. Period.

[WheelWalker]

69. +1 I've been teaching that since 1966

[mbperrin]

2. Single payer is the only solution for healthcare reform.

Until we kill the insurance companies, any bill is to their advantage, as witness their run-up in stock prices.

Being against a half-assed industry bill is not dumb, nor disloyal. He's holding to his original position, showing integrity. Too bad that reads as stupid or unintelligent.

[Dawgs]

7. So, he's completely worthless as a legislature.

Explain to me what's the point of being a congressperson if you're unwilling to vote for anything that isn't "perfect". Like it or not, DK is in the super minority. He won't accomplish shit if he continues to act like this.

And, single payer is NOT the only solution for healthcare reform; it's just the best.

[mbperrin]

32. Funny how all the developed countries have single payer, pay much less

per person, live longer, better infant survival, and are kicking our ass competitively on this one issue.

No other plan is healthcare reform; they're all health insurance diddling of one kind or another.

And believe me, if I could choose between a legislator who would do nothing rather than the wrong thing, I'd get them in a heartbeat. Where is it written that Congress must meet some quota of new laws each year?

This kind of thinking got us the Patriot Act and its recent extension, Gitmo, and other atrocities.

[Festivito]

54. Well said. And, without a strong PO, this reform is a bad joke.

1.5T$ per year is inflated prices, a denial of health care system and unnecessary-and-unusually-high profits.

That 1.5 figure is 2.4T$ we pay minus .9T$ we could be paying that would cover everyone for everything.

8K$ times 300 million Americans is 2.4T$.
3K$ times 300 million Americans is 0.9T$.

1.5T$ is a lot of lobbying money. So much that we have to play hardball.

If we cannot have the public option, a strong one, drop the whole thing. Yes, more will die. I'd put it like dropping our action in WWII a week after D-Day rather than fighting it through.

[Uncle Joe]

70. Yes but the United States can't reach the kind of perfection obtained by the rest of the developed

world, it's beyond our capabilities.

We're good at blowing stuff up, general destruction and such, but actually having a "We the People's government" to promote the general welfare, is too much to ask.

So se must boldly strive forth and let our "health" insurance corporations save us by inefficiently duplicating redundant bureaucracies and by profiting from our injured, sick and dying.

This is why we have "In God We Trust" on our money, we trust money and those entities having the most of it.

[drm604]

3. What did the option in that bill consist of?

(That's not a rhetorical question or a knee jerk defense of Kucinich. I'm genuinely curious.)

[Lerkfish]

4. you can't have it both ways: his one vote cannot be simultaneously irrelevant and earth shatteringly

harmful.

this is what i always scratch my head at.

He is a principled man... the definition of which is someone who votes their principles even when outnumbered.....

how many other democrats can say the same?

[Dawgs]

8. Thankfully, very few.

And, what do you mean I "can't have it both ways". I only want it one way. I want my representatives to do what is best for the American people. Voting against the best possible bill, that has any chance of passing, makes any legislature useless.

[Lerkfish]

10. in your opinion.

[harun]

20. Maybe 5 other Dem's can say that. I stand with DK.

[suzie]

25. He is not a principled man. Principled people don't compile a reactionary

anti-choice voting record over time and then magically change their stance overnight.

And make that magic change to run a presidential campaign.

Opposing the health care bill--but doing it for his "prinicples--seems like more of the old Kucinich who spent 30 years being anti-woman.

[tallahasseedem]

45. +1

[NJmaverick]

5. This guy's glory seeking is out of control and now is putting people's lives at risk

[Lerkfish]

6. see my post number 4

[girl gone mad]

28. Is he as evil as Paul Krugman??

Keep us posted.

[donco6]

40. Between him and Jane Hamsher. n/t

[liberal N proud]

9. His actions at this point make the Democrats look like fools

[Lerkfish]

11. no, they pretty much do that themselves by allowing insurance and big pharma to dictate their own

reform.

How is it you don't single out any of those?

[lamp_shade]

12. He seems fairly intelligent to me; it's his common sense that I question.

[ShortnFiery]

13. This whole "centrist attack mode" is going to TEAR our democratic party apart.

:thumbsdown:

[Moochy]

14. Incoming Fax from Rahm Emmanuel

I WANT DK'S HEAD ON A PLATTER! MAKE IT SO, FLAKS!

CTLAWGUY, ROBB, DAWGS, THIS MEANS YOU!

[Dawgs]

17. Sorry. DK has been consistently wrong on many issues.

This has nothing to do with HCR or the white house.

[Moochy]

18. So the 10 bash Dennis Kucinich Threads with all their shadowpuppetry

is not a pack of rabid Blue Dogs with marching orders?

It's just some organic reaction by like minded individual centrists!

[Dawgs]

22. Not liking DK does not make me a centrist.

I agree with every one of his liberal beliefs. It's his lack of common sense tactics that are the problem.

[Moochy]

44. No but flying in a V formation on Attack DK day certainly makes you somethign special

[Hell Hath No Fury]

64. Please name the issues he has consistently been wrong on.

Go head, I'm curious.

[NoPasaran]

62. A fax?

How Twentieth Century of the DK Fan Club

[Oregone]

15. "His not supporting of anything that isn't 100% progressive"

Now, you do realize that in the rest of the civilized world, single payer insurance is a centrist compromise on health care right? Its not some 100% progressive socialized takeover.

[Dawgs]

16. I know that, but I'm not a blue dog corporatist.

You really believe that there are 50+ votes for single payer in the Senate?

[Oregone]

19. I have no idea, because it hasn't gone up for a vote

All I see is a bunch of excuses and feigned capitulation.

Hey, it wouldn't of taken but a day to put it forth (or even the proposed Weiner amendment) and have it voted down. But instead, so many of them get to pretend they like it and hide behind the fact that they never have to really vote against it. Congressmen get it both ways, and the people don't have a record to hold them accountable for at election time. Thats not something anyone should be happy about, and most people should demand that if they pay lip service to such "progressivism", that they ought to put it up for a vote occasionally.

But at the end of the day, until they publicly test the viability of an idea, the "not enough votes" argument is a pile of shit being used for an excuse to hide behind.

[Dawgs]

21. Really?

Wow!! And, you're saying my argument is a "pile of shit".

[Oregone]

23. Show me a bill they voted down in this congressional session on single payer

Before you tell me about what votes they have. Otherwords, you are hiding behind an excuse

[Dawgs]

30. Huh? Your post doesn't make any sense.

If a single payer bill is capable of passing, then why was it shelved from the beginning. You can't tell me that it would have passed, if it wasn't even considered. That means a lot of Democrats weren't interested in it; hence it would never pass. Just because there wasn't a bill to be voted on, doesn't mean I can't use logic to come up with a pretty simple answer.

Maybe for you it's hard.

[dionysus]

31. there were like 5 senators supporting single payer. it never had the support to get out of committee

why the person you're arguing with can't grasp this, i do not know. :shrug:

[Oregone]

34. Committee leadership is not representative of an entire party

I'm not sure why you can't grasp this

[dionysus]

35. if you're not smart enough to understand what only having 5 votes means, i can't help you.

:shrug:

[Oregone]

36. You have no proof there is only 5 votes

There is no vote to reference to prove this. Perhaps 5 potential cosponsors, sure.

If you feel comfortable believing that your Democratic Party is that right-wing, then power to you.

[dionysus]

37. if you want to believe mean 'ol obama is holding back 60 dems that want single payer, go ahead.

it's won't be true of course, butif it makes you feel better, go for it.

[Oregone]

39. Now thats ridiculous

I don't really believe anything regarding this pitiful mess. You are the one leaning on the ol "not enough votes" argument, and Im simply pointing out how shallow this excuse is.

[Oregone]

33. We don't know if its capable of passing because leadership supresses it

But one theory is that its shelved to hide non-progressive congressmen who pretend they are for the people and don't want to cast an embarrasing vote for their lobbies

But regardless, its all guesswork until you have something on record. You are using guesswork as an excuse. There is little more to it.


"That means a lot of Democrats weren't interested in it"

Not a bit. It means party leadership isn't interested, but says nothing more about the quantity of people on the floor who would favor it

[HughMoran]

67. c

[HughMoran]

68. k

[girl gone mad]

27. I see you got the memo, too

Wow, these talking points never get old.

:eyes:

[denimgirly]

29. The Public Option he voted against was Watered-Down disastrously...He made that clear.

[PHIMG]

38. Nice talking points, did Rahm give them to you

You are fundamentally, intentionally misrepresenting his views. Watch his clip on Countdown from the other day.

Kucinich is not the problem, the bill is the problem.

[Cha]

46. dennis is a grandstanding egomaniac..we'll do it without

him.

[Moochy]

47. memo

get it did you?

[uponit7771]

51. Letting the good or perfect be the enemy of adequate is not wise

[Phx_Dem]

41. I question his intelligence and his sanity. n/t

[Cha]

42. Astute observation, imv, I read on another site..

"Contemplating Lieberman, Nelson, Stupak, Kucinich, et. al., it seems that our celebrity-crazed, all-about-me society has bred a class of asshole politicians for whom the common good is totally secondary to being the focus of attention and having it all their way. Sadly, most of these assholes are Democrats."

Posted by: bob h on March 9, 2010 at 10:06 AM

gops are assholes of course but they don't try to pretend they're not.. not that these dems can pretend very well.

http://www2.washingtonmonthly.com/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=22766

[HughMoran]

66. I think the GOP has their share of attention whores too

They're just less noticeable while the party is out of power.

[Phx_Dem]

43. Yes, I knew he was previously a jerk. n/t

[Change Happens]

48. Bingo...!

[ShadowLiberal]

49. Agreed, you've got to know when to say 'Deal' at times or you'll lose it all

If you watch deal or no deal then you know that some people just don't know when to say 'Deal', and then proceed to blow it by knocking out the high value cases.

The same is basically true here, even if you oppose a bill from the left, if you're saying no to the best deal we can realistically pass then you're just screwing yourself over knowing you'll lose it all (as in the chance to pass health care reform).

Just ask Ted Kennedy about this, his greatest regret was saying no to Nixon on a healthcare reform bill because it wasn't liberal enough, it was the biggest regret of his life, he spent the rest of his career hoping for another chance to reform America's health care system.

[ibegurpard]

50. this is not healthcare reform

Anything that codifies that for-profit health insurance rather than seeing it as a big part of the problem is not reform.
It is cementing the status quo.

[Bobbie Jo]

53. Excellent post. nt

[mzmolly]

52. I question his ability to read

lately.

[salguine]

55. How asinine. You say he's "pretending that he's against it because it doesn't have a PO". Why

do you say he's "pretending"? Couldn't he just conceivably ACTUALLY be against it because it doesn't have a PO?

Kucinich is right. This bill is a steaming pile of shit that will only serve to further entrench the health insurance cartels and will help almost nobody.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LooseWilly]

56. Disingenuous bs...

but a nice distortion. Way to misinterpret a vote...

[boppers]

58. A primadonna without a glass slipper....

More like a belladonna.

[DCBob]

59. Dennis overflows with vague grandiose platitudes but is void of anything practical or doable..

from a political standpoint.

[krawhitham]

60. anything to get his name in the press

He sold out a while ago

[ShortnFiery]

61. That's correct! Kucinich only supports what I support: Single Payer!

Dennis Kucinich, American Patriot. :patriot:

[freddie mertz]

63. OP is a distortion of the facts.

Kucinich voted "No" on the bill only after the strong public option was dropped and the present, pitifully weak version was put in its place.

He has discussed this many times, and still says that he vote FOR the bill if the strong PO was restored.

Massive fail on this OP.

[Cha]

65. I understand that dennis a hypocrite and a liar..nt