Kos just said he thinks Kucinich should be primaried.

[jenmito]

On Countdown, he told Lawrence O'Donnell that he considers Kucinich the Nader of healthcare reform and that he thinks it's worth primarying someone who's willing to keep millions of people uninsured for his unrealistic ideals. I'm with Kos!

[valerief]

Aren't all the other Congress members keeping millions of people uninsured and

keeping the price of health insurance WAY too high?

If they weren't, they'd give America MEDICARE FOR ALL.

[bluestateguy]

1. K'nich is like a 64 year old teenager from the sixties who never grew up

nt

[jenmito]

3. Great description!

[jillan]

76. I was thinking more like a toddler that draws attention to himself when he doesn't get his way.

I'm just going to stand here and hold my breath until you give me what I want mommy.

[krawhitham]

99. +1

[suzie]

150. An apt description.

We read all the time how K'nich married an attractive woman.

I never thought of it until I read your description, but I remember those days when "chicks", as the DK types, called them looked a lot like his wife.

And were supposed to look raptly at white male leftist speakers, then go in the back room to do the organizing, run the mimegraph machine, type flyers.

[Cell Whitman]

164. God forbid someone actually stand on principle

we wouldn't want that, especially not from a democrat. Rather bash the man who has stood on the right side of issues every day of his life and fought for every one of them.

I can understand someone disagreeing with this stance, but to bash him like he is some kind of a clown really is classless.

[Cha]

Good .and this is the best dennis

thread of all.

[jenmito]

4. Thanks, Cha...

:hi: :D

[bigwillq]

2. All incumbents should face a primary challenge

And may the best man/woman win.

[DCBob]

5. Kos ripped Kooch!!!

Dennis is quickly becoming a radical left wing fringe kook... even more than he was already.

[jenmito]

6. He sure did...

he said he's not going to give Kucinich a pass, that he's like Nader-running for president every 4 years-giving Repubs. a win...

[DCBob]

12. I suspect Dennis is going to give in... he has lost almost everyone...

except for a few hard-core extremists on this board.

[jenmito]

17. If he knows they have enough Dems. to pass it, he probably won't give in...

but if they don't, he WILL have to give in-losing Big Ed is a big deal.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

47. I believe you're right.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

63. I think Kucinich plays an important role as he speaks for the left and keeps our ideas on the table

That said, and I've said this before, I do not believe he would kill the legislation if the time came and his vote was the deciding vote. Last time I said this I got ripped for it, but I did not mean it as an insult.

[grantcart]

169. I think we should take him at his word, he wants to defeat this bill, not make a symbolic move

[verges]

75. If he doesn't give in...

and HCR is lost; he'll become the RW's one true god. For a few days a least. Oh the irony!

[CreekDog]

86. I don't think so, because he believes he's most right according to how few people agree with him

:eyes:

[HughMoran]

103. I was starting to wonder if he would reconsider his intransigent position n/t

[DrToast]

25. Good. Kucinich is being a child

And for anyone looking for someone to admire, try Bernie Sanders. He's like Kucinich, but without the crazy.

[Jennicut]

28. I love Bernie. Dennis...not so much. He needs too much attention.

[DCBob]

34. I totally admire Sanders.. He is knows when to fight and when to negotiate...

Kooch is a well a "kooch".

[boppers]

98. Oh, Bernie has the crazy.

The difference is that Bernie is crazy like a fox.

Kucinich, less so....

While Dennis was railing against the bills not being good enough, Bernie was inserting funding for an NHS-style system. Dennis got the press, Bernie got shit done.

[xchrom]

7. Unrec

[jenmito]

8. I'll live.

[HughMoran]

104. Nobody, not even KOS is permitted to criticize Kuch

But you bash the Democratic President daily.

Hmmmm, here's a word you may want to look up in the dictionary: hypocrite.

[femrap]

9. Kos is a middle of road

ex-military dude who walks backward.

[Sebastian Doyle]

10. I never wanted to believe the stories that Markos was a CIA plant.

But I can't understand why he would want one of the few remaining actual Democrats in Congress to be replaced, if he (Markos) was actually on our side. :shrug:

[femrap]

18. I hadn't heard the CIA

plant story, but it makes sense. Ex-military and previous repugnant. Anyone who attacks Kucinich's progressive ideas and anti-war stance gives me pause.

Kos is a misogynist as well. And then there's that napoleon complex....

[girl gone mad]

31. misogynist and goofball.

I can never listen to him for more than a couple of minutes. He doesn't belong in public speaking.

[femrap]

132. Wow....I was under the impression

that I was alone in my dislike and distrust of this dude.

I've felt this way for a long time. Once I knew he was ex-military and ex-repugnant, my red flags started waving like mad.

[hack89]

160. What's wrong with ex-military? nt

[troubledamerican]

58. I believe the CIA part, but I never heard he was previously a Republican -- that means

quite a lot, considering his heritage of being an immigrant from an El Salvador, landed-gentry family.

Those are some very ugly pieces of a puzzle.

[femrap]

131. He is ex-military and

once a republican. I never trusted him. He was smart though to realize he needed good reporters/writers/diarists....and he provided them.

He was always the ass...but had some great progressives contributing. But I finally couldn't take it and just stopped going to Kos.

[troubledamerican]

151. Thanks for the good info.

I always knew I needed to look into his background, but never devoted enough time to it.

Need a scorecard these days.

[jenmito]

21. How could you not understand why he'd want Kucinich to be replaced? He SAID why...

and it makes perfect sense. We don't need someone who doesn't think twice about giving the Repubs. a victory (and 31 million people a loss) all in the name of "purity."

[DFLforever]

45. Is the CIA supporting passage of HCR?

That should be on Latest Breaking News.

I think an 'actual' Democrat is a congressman who supports actual Democratic legislation and the Democratic president.

[troubledamerican]

60. Surely you jest. That's GOP Upside-down talk.

The Bush-faction of the CIA would certainly support a Kucinich takedown and an HCR made of feathers.

[Sebastian Doyle]

67. You really think Paul Wellstone would have voted for corporate mandates?

There is nothing remotely "Democratic" about this corporate welfare bait & switch scam.

[DFLforever]

89. His successor , Sen Franken,

is a strong supporter of this bill. Why wouldn't Sen Wellstone support mandates. ..he wasn't libertarian. I hardly think he'd oppose a bill that extends coverage to 31 million Americans even if 16 million of those will be covered via private insurance. US senators are all recipients of taxpayer paid private insurance.

I'm mandated by Medicare D to buy PRIVATE medical prescription insurance. I don't take any prescribed medicine but am required to buy insurance to be eligible for coverage IF I should ever need it. Healthy persons are part of the pool so that the sick can afford the medicine they need.

If providers, private OR public, are required to cover everyone, everyone will be required to sign up.

[krawhitham]

100. You wear a tin foil hat don't you?

[tranche]

124. Yea.. everyone that thinks Kuch is a tool is a CIA plant.

You're going to be pretty paranoid there dude.

[Teaser]

154. "I never wanted to believe the stories that Markos was a CIA plant."

good. cause that would make you a goddamn moron.

[FrenchieCat]

11. Oh my!

:scared:

[jenmito]

22. The Iron Chef guy!

That's gross-what is it?

[FrenchieCat]

24. It's my rendition of Kos with a grenade thrown at DU!

[jenmito]

30. OK...

it was effective! :D

[harkadog]

13. Why doesn't Kos move there and do it himself?

He won't because he knows DK would kick his ass all over Cleveland.

[ibegurpard]

14. I'm sure that Kucinich knows what he's up against.

Pretty sure he's willing to go down over this.
Props to him.

[jenmito]

33. He gets no props from me...

and I'm sure the tens of millions of people who will not have health insurance don't give him props, either.

[goclark]

147. Wonder if DK is willing to give up his Health Care benefits

to show how muuch this all means to him ~ his wife, kids,parents and even his cousins should be willing to say NO to their health insurance.

Money where the mouth is for all of these people.

[ClassWarrior]

85. "Pretty sure he's willing to go down over this." So are his constituents...

...and that's why he won't go down.

:thumbsup:

NGU.

[SnoopDog]

15. Fuck Mr. Moulitsas...

Fuck Mr. Moulitsas... Kucinich is an enemy because he is a 'man of the people' and not a 'man of the corporation'.

That is why he gets attacked so much here and everywhere else.

(Forgive me for copying my post from the other thread - this is just so to the point)...

Unrecommended...

[jenmito]

27. He's a "man of himself and FOR himself." He obviously couldn't care less about

those who'll die without coverage-especially all the children.

[ibegurpard]

37. think of the children

the last resort for trying to whip up support for bad public policy.

[jenmito]

41. You don't care about the children?

You and Kucinich-two people who don't care about kids' lives. Nice.

[ibegurpard]

44. No I don't care about hackneyed attempts to try to use children

as a wedge for drumming up support for bad public policy.

[jenmito]

48. And you don't care about the children who WILL be uninsured. n/t

[HughMoran]

109. ...unless you're the one using the wedge

you've been pegged - your opinion is Mudd from now on.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spoony]

120. Lol, I can't believe someone really just said that.

What next, if it doesn't pass the terrorists win? You're with us or against us?

[HughMoran]

157. a

[HughMoran]

161. y

[PVnRT]

101. You wave that bloody shirt!

[HughMoran]

107. Hypocritical position.

I'm getting sick of the wildly hypocritical people posting here.

KOS was worshipped in many posts here for being tougher than anybody on HCR, now that he's criticized Lord Kuch, he's suddenly a pariah?

Bullshit!

[RoccoR5955]

16. Markos is a tool.

I wonder if Rahm didn't pay him off to say that.

Michael Moore has said the same thing, so has Howard Dean. Kucinich votes for WE THE PEOPLE, not them, the corporations.
We need about 100,000,000 MORE Kuciniches, as far as I'm concerned!

I wish I could unrec this thread about 100,000,000 times!

[DCBob]

23. Now Kos is a "tool"??

Some of you people need therapy.

[RoccoR5955]

116. Yeah, and some of you people are Republicans,

Freepers even, posing here as Dems.

[Jennicut]

26. I thought Kos disliked Rahm? I cannot keep the conspiracies straight anymore.

[FrenchieCat]

32. As long as we are all fighting each other,

then nothing else happens? :shrug:

[Jennicut]

40. So true, Frenchie.

[angelicwoman]

84. Yeah. It's like those who hated Krugman in '08 but love him now

Many fair-weather fans around.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

51. Kos doesn't like Rahm

And has made that clear time and time again over the five years I've been on that site. And I agree with much of his logic on Rahm, even if I don't have the same level of hatred that some progressives have toward him

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HughMoran]

110. The same Marcos who was bashing Obama on HCR is now a tool?

No, you're just mad because what's good for the goose ISN'T good for the gander in your hypocritical world.

Bash Obama all day long every day, but don't you dare criticize Lord Kuch even one day a year.

Ludicrous.

[RoccoR5955]

115. No, I do not live in a hypocritical world

Kucinich stands for MY values, and I stand with him, ALL THE WAY!
He works for WE THE PEOPLE, not them, the corporations, and that's who I back.
I will not back anyone who is for corporations, because they are the root of all of the problems in this country, in my not so humble opinion.

[HughMoran]

118. "I stand with him, ALL THE WAY!!!!!1111!!!111!!!"

lol @ caricature.

[Bobbie Jo]

138. +1000

Spot on.

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HughMoran]

123. "I wish I could unrec this thread about 100,000,000 times!"

Just to reiterate that you said this, without commentary this time as it speaks for itself.

[European Socialist]

19. I'm for HCR even without the PO, but hold nothing against Dennis...

for being against that watered down POS--And I sure have lost respect for Markos.

[ProSense]

20. Kucinich voted against the public option, against the climate change bill and

he even voted against the reprimand of Joe "You lie" Wilson.

Kucinich is a perfect so-called progressive.

[jenmito]

36. What???

I didn't know he voted against all that!

[ProSense]

42. He also voted against

physician payment reform, the pay as you go act, Obama's Budget and the consumer protection act. All no votes with Republicans.

[jenmito]

49. Jeez...

I wonder how many people know about all that.

[tex-wyo-dem]

79. jenminto and Prosense...a perfect tag-team!

You two are cute...:p

I happen to like the fact that DK injects truth into the otherwise generic centrist/corporatist debate. If you research the reasons for his "no" votes on these issues, you might find yourselves agreeing with him...or not...its all good :)

[ibegurpard]

43. clutch the pearls!!

:eyes:
i'm sure...

[HughMoran]

117. Not likin' the truth eh?

Not surprised...

[DevonRex]

133. But Hoochie Koochie's no votes are different from Pukes' no votes.

Didn't you know that?

[HughMoran]

135. Yes, the Republicans stand on a different kind of 'principal'

You can determine this when looking at the voting records. You need a UV light to see the otherwise invisible ink.

[DevonRex]

136. Well damn. I was using the secret decoder ring. No wonder I

had trouble telling the difference. :crazy:

[polmaven]

146. Well sure,...'cuz

what could wimmins POSSIBLY understand about it???

[SoFlaJet]

46. One of the reasons I still come here is that

I know I can still find true democrats on this board...Pro Sense, Frenchie, Cali and so many others-I will continue to fight alongside you all. Fuck the Kucinich contingent, the don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good crowd.

[JI7]

56. but didn't he vote FOR some flag burning amendment ?

[ProSense]

71. "Amendment to the Constitution...to Prohibit the Physical Desecration of the Flag"

Yea

[butterfly77]

29. K&R!

[girl gone mad]

35. Good luck with that.

A primary opponent would get his or her ass handed over on a platter by the voters in Kucinich's district. Half of my family lives in Cleveland/Lakewood and they all like him, regardless of their political affiliation. Eight of my cousins called his office to support him today. My uncle's access to health care is on the line here, so this issue is really important to all of us.

[jenmito]

38. I don't think so. And I have a feeling there are

other families who feel just the opposite as yours.

[girl gone mad]

64. I'm sure there are families that feel the opposite.

Most are probably much less informed on the issue than mine.

[frazzled]

55. That's an interesting argument

It sort of mimics the type of logic used by the teabaggers: keep the government out of health care--and don't touch my Medicare!.

Your uncle's health care is on the line. I, of course, don't know the details of that. But ... if Kucinich continues to vote against a health care bill that prevents health insurance companies from dropping patients, that prevents them from denying coverage on the basis of pre-existing conditions, that imposes no federal regulations or oversight on rates insurers can charge, that fails to expand Medicaid, and fails to offer an exchange where people who have to get their insurance on the private market can get better prices---that is to say, if he continues to vote for the status quo--I don't see how that helps your uncle at all.

If he's having trouble with his health care under the status quo, then it's only going to get worse if that very status quo is maintained. Kucinich should be supporting this health care bill. Your uncle will be dead before his idea of single-payer government coverage ever becomes even close to a reality.

[girl gone mad]

62. This bill does not prevent insurance cos. from dropping patients or denying coverage.

it simply gives them a new means of doing so, while at the same time requiring everyne to buy their defective product or be fined. It's one thing to support the reform, another to lie about what it actually accomplishes.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mikelgb]

39. nobody likes the last man to compromise his principles

imagine if Dennis did change his position, they would be using his name all over the place to market the bill

[mkultra]

126. standing on your principles doesnt make you wise

It just makes you stubborn. George W. stuck by his principles constantly. When the facts change, principles should change with them.

[mikelgb]

129. "when the facts change" right

[rudy23]

140. [phone]. He's "irrelevant" until 50 people start threads just to bash him & liberals by assoc.

This is a sneak preview of November, when they'll blame all of us for losing the elections they didn't really try that hard to win.

[Change Happens]

50. Well done Markos! I agree 100%..................nt

[PBS Poll-435]

52. I would prefer censure and expulsion from the House, personally. nt.

[Born_A_Truman]

53. Priceless!!!

[babyblonde]

54. Marcos Molass-ass

fuck you shrimp:mad:

[Cha]

68. Haha..Kos is spot on. dennis is a fucking naderite.

[azmouse]

57. Look at 'em all throw Marcos under the bus!

:rofl: Go Marcos! Goodbye StD!

[TwilightGardener]

65. I agree--this is amusing. Truth hurts, but "Nader" is spot-on.

[flvegan]

59. Who?

Fuck that moron. I knew there was good reason I never signed up for nor read that site.

[jefferson_dem]

61. Great.

Let's get the "ADBK" (Any Democrat But Kooch) campaign rolling. This guy is no friend of the Democratic agenda. Let's find someone who is.

[ibegurpard]

66. The Democratic agenda is propping up the insurance industry?

That's not what I envisioned when they brought up the idea of healthcare reform.

[Cha]

73. No, that's a lie repeated

on the internet bc they're too lazy to get the facts.

[ibegurpard]

81. lie?

why was single payer off the table before negotiations even began then?

[HughMoran]

111. lol

Repeating a lie often doesn't make it true.

[grasswire]

91. since when do Atlantans choose Ohio reps?

I must have missed something.

[zulchzulu]

72. Absolutely

Kucinich is a combination of Ron Paul's flaky theories and Sarah Palin's love of getting attention... he has voted against helping Americans in this time of crisis on a number of occasions because he is either a selfish bloviating charlatan or is just a fucking failure.

He should be primaried indeed.

[Cha]

74. Why not both?

[mzmolly]

78. I'm with you and Kos

ZZ. :hi:

[mzmolly]

77. I agree with Kos.

:hi: Dennis.

[Dr.Phool]

80. Kos should be primaried.

Opinions (especially bloggers) are like assholes. You know the rest.

[angelicwoman]

82. The Daily Kos doesn't have a good history of sponsoring winning challengers

If I'm Kucinich I'd say, bring it.

[Cha]

87. Whatever..Kos' reasoning is sound..dennis

needs to have a primary challenger like all the other assholes who refuse to help with Health Care Reform.

[ibegurpard]

90. guess that means all of them then right?

because we're taking reform off the table by cementing the status quo.
we're preserving the system we have...not reforming it...with regulations that can be changed.

[saltpoint]

83. Maybe Harold Ford will move to Ohio next and run as an independent

against Kucinich.

He can have lunch with the owners of the both the Browns and the Bengals.

[polichick]

106. He's probably jetting in right now! nt

[saltpoint]

108. Yep. Go, Buckeyes!

[vaberella]

88. Is there a video of this? I so need to see this. n/t

[Greyhound]

92. I guess the tiny libertarian prick will have to get in line.

DK has had the big money and the big party united against him for his whole life, and these little prep-school shitheels think they scare him?

[DFLforever]

93. Kos makes a valid point.

Why should only the Blue Dogs or Conservadems who support the Repukes on key legislation be held accountable?

[polichick]

105. True - as much as it would make me sick to vote for the insurance companies...

...to win so big, he does make a point about holding up Dem legislation like the Blue Dogs.

[HughMoran]

113. Exactly

There comes a point when a politician needs to consider the good of their constituents versus grandstanding for a system that has insignificant support to get through Congress - and he knows it.

[liquid diamond]

94. It's about damn time. n/t

[impik]

95. Kucinich is juvenile and his admirers are 4 years old with no grasp of reality

[lamp_shade]

96. Well said, Markos. DK is an embarrassment to the party.

[Raine]

97. MM can fuck off! nt

[ShortnFiery]

102. +1000. He's returning to his GOP thug ways. eom

[HughMoran]

112. Should I call your mommy?

Sounds like somebody needs a time-out.

[freddie mertz]

119. Disagree with Markos on this.

Agree with him on others.

It is a tough fight we are in right now.

[dionysus]

121. .

:popcorn:

[leftygolfer]

122. Ask yourself this.

Is our Congress better or worse if we had 435 Dennis Kucinich types? I say better.

[tranche]

125. It would be confusing when 435 reps took positions opposite themselves.

For no conceivable reason.

[mkultra]

127. well, they would all be stammering for attention

so you would have 435 different viewpoints just to be different.

[HughMoran]

139. That's a different story

If there were that many people of his ilk, then they would have to learn to agree with one another and we would then have much needed reform in this country.

[WI_DEM]

130. DK can't get anything thru congress and so he has to try to be a spoiler here.

[bvar22]

134. Kucinich gets "Primaried" all the time.

Go ahead.
You will have a lot of help from the Health Insurance Industry, The War Profiteers, the MIC, and their conservative lap dogs in the "Centrist" Democratic Party Leadership.

"They" used to "Primary" Wellstone all the time too.
They finally had to kill him to get rid of a man who showed the nation what a "Democrat" used to be.
They set a very embarrassing comparison for today's "Centrists.

Dennis reminds me of the "Democratic Party I joined 44 years ago.

"In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens."---FDR

DK speaks FOR the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party.
He is one of the very few reasons I still support the Party.
Go ahead and kill Kucinich.
Vacuums WILL be filled.
QED 2000.

"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans."---Paul Wellstone

[RoccoR5955]

142. Kick +10 e100!

Thanks for that. I couldn't have said it better.

[DevonRex]

137. I'll donate to his primary challenger.

If Kooch votes with the Republicans AGAIN he's no better than they are. I have donated to Lincoln's primary challenger, too, for the same reason.

[RoccoR5955]

141. And I'll KEEP donating whatever you do FOR Kucinich, x2! n/t

[Cha]

143. More than a few think he's useless ..like this comment

from Steve Benen's "I Don't Think he Get's a Pass" blog..

"If we had more people who wouldn't vote for anything they didn't consider just exactly right, nothing would get passed. That's a great outcome if you're someone who doesn't think the government should do anything but build toll roads and run the army. If you're someone who thinks the government should have a larger role in running a social safety net, not so much. Sometimes you need to look around, note who you're voting with, and figure out what your precious principles are worth and whose interests they're really advancing.

Hundreds of thousands will die prematurely due to lack of access to health care before Congress revisits the issue with a proposal even this good again. Is moral superiority really worth their lives?"

Posted by: drkrick on March 10, 2010 at 10:49 AM

[jenmito]

152. Thanks for that quote...

it should be obvious that this bill will do a lot of good for people who really NEED it. The fact that insurance companies will be getting all of these new customers should NOT be reason enough to kill the bill, especially since they must cover people with pre-existing conditions, can't put a cap on the amount of coverage, can't spend more than a small percentage on things other than actual care, etc.

[GeorgeGist]

144. 20 million will remain uncared for ....

:banghead:

[EFerrari]

145. This is the best Kooch thread *ever* and that's why it sits here with 30 votes

after 21 hours.

I didn't know that there was actually someone keeping track of how well posters to this board attack the Democratic Congressman from Cleveland.

[glitch]

148. Ugly is the only way to describe it. :shudder: nt

[freddie mertz]

159. I think these thread reproduce on their own.

Honestly, it's beyond nuts.

[Jim Lane]

149. So many things wrong with the attack on Kucinich -- where to start?

Let's start with Kucinich's actual position. The view imputed to him by many posters in this thread is that he won't vote for anything that's less than perfect. He has NOT said that and plainly doesn't vote that way. If he did, he wouldn't have needed to say anything about the public option or the Stupak amendment or anything else. He would've just said, "I want Medicare for All and I'll vote against anything else."

It's one thing to vote for an imperfect bill that accomplishes something, as much as can reasonably be accomplished under current circumstances. It's quite another to vote for a bill that you think will do more harm than good. Kucinich holds the sincere belief that the House bill falls in the latter category. Yes, the House bill is better in many ways than the Senate bill, but that's pretty weak praise.

People can reasonably point to the good parts of the House bill and emphasize those. It's disingenuous, however, to pretend that there's nothing bad in the House bill. (By "bad" I don't mean "could have been better"; I mean "will do more harm than good".) It's not an illogical position for a progressive to oppose a bill that further solidifies the role of for-profit robber baron insurance companies, that effectively curbs reproductive rights, and that has a good chance of being a net loss for many Americans who'll conclude that increased government involvement in health care is harmful. (That last point is addressed to those who say that we should pass just about any bill because doing nothing now will set back the cause of reform for years. Doing something now that has the practical effect of eroding public support for the progressive position could also set back the cause of reform for years.)

Weighing the advantages and disadvantages of this huge bill isn't a cut-and-dried thing. Progressives in the House were divided on it, though largely in favor. I respect those on both sides of that divide who've shown by their past actions that they're sincerely trying to work toward the public interest.

Dumping on Kucinich is not sensible. It's still less sensible to compare him to Nader. Kucinich did exactly what Nader should have done in 2000: He ran in the Democratic primaries, thus bringing forward progressive ideas without indulging the vanity of a quixotic third-party general-election campaign that benefited the Republicans.

Nader's major error was in not considering the practical consequences of his action. The practical consequence of Kucinich's vote was to send the message that Obama and the Democratic leadership don't have unlimited room to compromise with the right-wingers to get their votes; they must also take account of the views of the left as they try to put together a majority. That's a consequence I'm happy with.

[rudy23]

153. +10000. Very well said, and very well reasoned. n/t

[niceypoo]

156. When basic principles are thrown under the bus...

...in the name of expediency, what is left?

An empty husk.

[Mass]

155. HE is entitled to his opinion, but I am not sure why I should care about it.\nt

[Orsino]

158. Every Congresscritter should be primaried. n/t

[Forkboy]

163. You win the thread.

:)

[Forkboy]

162. Then KOS is pretty dumb, as it's too late.

[warm regards]

165. Who do you trust--Kos or Kucinich?

[jenmito]

166. Kos.

[Bluenorthwest]

168. Well that is funny because it is too late to 'primary' Kucinich

and Kos, not being in reality, has no idea this is true. So blathering hyperbolic rhetoric is one path to 15 minutes of fame, I suppose, but suggesting an impossible challenge is just a display of ignorance. This in his alleged area of expertise and he is clueless as to the basic reality.

[warm regards]

170. Interesting—it appears that Kos is not a very well informed man.

I leads me to wonder what else he could be wrong about.

[NorthCarolina]

171. Kucinich by a long shot. eom

[Enthusiast]

167. Kos is dead to me. nt