Dems: It Will Improve! Party Promises To Build On Watered-Down Health Care Reform

[ProSense]

Dems: It Will Improve! Party Promises To Build On Watered-Down Health Care Reform

Christina Bellantoni

Senate Democrats are trying to reassure progressives and House members that voting for the more conservative Senate health care bill doesn't mean things can't be improved later. They point to major historic policy changes such as Social Security and Medicare when the bills were passed with their most watered-down provisions and later bolstered, drawing parallels between those battles and the health care fight.

<...>

"We're not done," Sen. Sherrod Brown told reporters, pundits and bloggers at the Progressive Media Summit yesterday.

Brown (D-OH) said the bill isn't "good enough" for him, in part because it doesn't contain a public option, but he supports it and urged progressives to do the same with an aim of building upon it later. "We're going to keep trying, we're going to continue to make improvements," he said.

<...>

Sen. Debbie Stabenow took it a step further, telling reporters she supports both single-payer health care and a public option but she knows that's not possible. "This is an ever changing and improving process," she said.

<...>

President Obama used that same sort of pitch at a major event with his grassroots supporters last fall, reminding frustrated Democrats that the "bill you least like" would still make major changes to the system.

First the participants at the meeting focus on the Senators comments critical of the President's call for bipartisanship. Then comes the rest: Senator say they support the bill because it's a start and will be improved.

It's amazing how information trickles out.

[Bullet1987]

1. Anyone who believes they'll change the bill after it passes

Is a fool in a major way. Maybe they'll get to the shitty HCR bill AFTER they fix The Patriot Act, NAFTA, the Military Commissions Act, etc. I'm not holding my breathe though. The Dems are full of shit!

[ProSense]

3. Why would anyone believe the Senators' criticism of the President

but not their promise to improve the bill?

[Bullet1987]

5. I don't believe a damn thing politicians say anymore

[ProSense]

6. You know what they say:

politics is the art of the possible. Otherwise, health care reform would have passed a long time ago.

[Bullet1987]

8. Politics is the art of bullshit

Otherwise the American people would have what they needed. But the two parties don't care about America...only playing politics with each other and faking concern.

[ProSense]

10. "The two parties don't care about America" Yet

Democratic Presidents have delivered Social Security and Medicare, which were in their time more possible than universal health care.

[kenfrequed]

35. The problem with that analogy is...

That neither Medicare nor Social security had, at their inception a powerfully entrenched private industry with lobbying power from hell. Both were public government programs that were improved with funding as time progressed.

Or are you under the impression that after establishing a system whereby the insurance industry recieves corporate wealthfare for undercovering Americans that they will somehow suddenly have less ability to influence legislation?

I am sorry but I am not that naive.

[paulk]

72. nail meet hammer

you have pointed out the fallacy of "prosense's" argument.

social security, medicare, medicaid were public programs, health insurance reform is not - it, in fact, entrenches a private industry that will use taxpayer money to make sure that things stay in it's favor...

[Jakes Progress]

75. But, but. You mean that insurance companies

won't voluntarily reduce their enormous profits because it would better serve the people. I'm shocked.

And these corporations are now citizens with the rights of individuals who can give as much money to our congress critters as they want. Maybe they will give lots of money to those senators who will be on the regulation committees.

We are truly screwed.

[Cha]

21. Very good points, PS..and

optimism is needed..that's why we've gotten as far as we have.

We could still be in freakin' gop hell right now..but, we've digging out instead.

[Lerkfish]

19. Patriot Act comes to mind

FISA, Gitmo, Habeas Corpus, etc.

all were promised to be fixed... none have been

[ProSense]

25. I prefer to view this in term of

Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security.

In fact, the current health care bill addresses more Medicaid and Medicare fixes.

[Lerkfish]

29. well, no offense, but your preference is not necessarily what will end up being true.

I have more examples on my side...and your examples are constantly under attack and will likely be compromised very soon.

[ProSense]

31. The problem is that you're assuming that now is the end of time

and the bills you have listed will never be fixed. More important, this President isn't likely to to abuse the laws.

[Lerkfish]

33. your confidence in the purity of the president is noted.

I, however, tend to think he is made of flesh and blood, and has already proven to be more likely to appease corporations and republicans in a misguided attempt at "bipartisanship".
therefore, my confidence is not as great as yours.

[ProSense]

36. "I, however, tend to think he is made of flesh and blood" Oh look at me

I'm condescending. The President is human, and if you truly accepted that, you wouldn't be constantly complaining about every perceived flaw and assuming that every failure of the government is a result of his actions.

[Lerkfish]

43. your post is self-contradictory.

[ProSense]

44. Not in the slightest. n/t

[Lerkfish]

48. actually, its completely self-contradictory

you said:

"The President is human, and if you truly accepted that, you wouldn't be constantly complaining about every perceived flaw"

to be human is to be flawed. Therefore perceiving an obvious flaw is the act of accepting that he is human. Yet you claim by pointing out his flaws I am not accepting his humanity.

I would continue to discuss this with you, but I don't think you have the ability to understand this level of intellectual distinction.

[ProSense]

51. More flawed logic

"The President is human, and if you truly accepted that, you wouldn't be constantly complaining about every perceived flaw"

to be human is to be flawed. Therefore perceiving an obvious flaw is the act of accepting that he is human. Yet you claim by pointing out his flaws I am not accepting his humanity.

"Perceiving" is not complaining, which is the point I made.

I would continue to discuss this with you, but I don't think you have the ability to understand this level of intellectual distinction.

This from someone who confuses perceiving with complaining.

[Autumn]

37. Funny. My right wing Sister always said Bush

would never abuse the laws.

[ProSense]

38. No offense, but how smart is someone who belongs to the RW? n/t

[Autumn]

39. I never said she was smart, but a broken clock

is still right twice a day. I guess it all depends on what you believe. And who is whispering in your ear.

[Dinger]

73. I Was Wondering That Myself (nt)

[daa]

2. The modus operndi of Congress is to swoop in

screw something up and move on to something else. They WILL NOT be revisiting health care any time.

[kjackson227]

4. Changes/amendments were made to Social Security, so...

improvements are very much possible.

[Justyce]

7. Buy my broken down car with no engine now, and I promise that later

I will *try* to get around to working on it a little for you. Trust me.

[DisgustedInMN]

9. I hear it's scheduled for the day ...

.. after they "fix" NAFTA.

You be sure and hold your breath till it happens.

[saracat]

11. "trust me" ? Right. There is a sucker born every minute.

[ProSense]

12. Equally, there is a loser born every minute.

Reality sucks.

[saracat]

46. And the losers are the American public!

[ShortnFiery]

14. P.T. Barnum got that one right!

[ProSense]

18. I'm invoking Smokey

Tears of a clown.

[ShortnFiery]

20. Yes. The "dog and pony show" of this charade could use a clown on the side.

[ProSense]

23. Is that you? n/t

[ShortnFiery]

24. How lovely. You are playing limbo again.

:eyes:

[ShortnFiery]

13. Pure unadulterated BULLSHIT. The NUMBERS are not in the Senate to reconcile.

Why pass a shitty HRC bill when it will REMAIN just that?!?

[ProSense]

17. Maybe you're wrong,

and it is, in fact, the best possible foundation for reforming the health care system.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[harkadog]

15. Just like they did with NAFTA!

Remember those promises? Remember what Obama said about NAFTA during the campaign?

[Lerkfish]

16. beatings will continue until the morale improves

[denimgirly]

26. Like Medicare Part D?

[ProSense]

32. What about it? n/t

[denimgirly]

27. Problem with Fixing it is that it Denies Insurers more Profit and so Statistically won't Happen.

[TheKentuckian]

28. Precious little if anything has been "fixed" since Reagan undermined government

in the eyes of the electorate and the media went from dicey to full throated fraud.

The pointing back to yesteryear when such conditions in no way exist is spin or pure hope. There is nothing in the last 30-40 years of politics to indicate any fixing goes on that isn't a griffter scam to move money from the bottom to the top.

If they intended to fix it then it would have been made a lot closer to functional. If you can't bring the people national buying power and remove anti-trust exemptions or pretend TARP is the end of the bailouts and liability then you're playing a game of three card Monty not working to resolve the nation's serious problems.

*edit to fix the order of the thought and restore proper context. The money moves bottom to top.

[zalinda]

30. NAFTA n/t

[ProSense]

34. HEALTH CARE

These responses are hysterical. What does this mean? Does it mean that the bill isn't a great foundation for reform? The foundation: more people will be eligible for Medicaid, no more denying coverage based on pre-existing condition, no co-pays and deductibles for preventive care, a state single payer provision, and much more.

[zalinda]

50. Then are you saying

that they fixed NAFTA? Where? When? How?

zalinda

[treestar]

52. So? Just because "they" did not "fix NAFTA" does not mean that

there can never be another health care bill again.

[zalinda]

68. It means don't hope they'll change it, because

judging from past recent history, they don't.

zalinda

[Raineyb]

77. Their track record says otherwise.

And I for one am not a damn fool. Only a fool or a sucker would expect them to "fix" this bill when their track record says they won't.

[Bluenorthwest]

40. Why build something that needs fixing from day one?

Please back my mediocre, already broken 'reform' on the promise that we will act as fast as we do on climate change, on DOMA, and on prosecution of war crimes.
Pelosi, for example, is dancing over this bill reducing the 'doughnut hole'. Why is there a doughnut hole? Because Congress, including Pelosi, wrote into existence and voted it into law. This bill does not even fill that hole, it reduces it somewhat, but there is still a huge gap. So what this aspect of the current reform, so exciting to Pelosi, really is is a fix of the botch they made of it last time they messed with health care. They created a doughnut hole, and now they dance over making the hole a tad smaller. The hole they designed. And voted for. Now they are 'fixing' it, but there will still be a hole.
May I come to your house, smash a hole in the wall, then much later patch up part of it and call that 'remodeling your house'? While claiming that the initial hole was an act of nature or something?
They made a hole, they are keeping it. Fix? Not so much. Big hole, still. The hole Congress made to begin with.




"The US Congress- we build the law broken, so you don't have to break it yourself."

[ProSense]

42. Can you point to a perfect piece of legislation that didn't need fixing from day one?

Even the Civil Rights Act needed fixing.

[Bluenorthwest]

55. So knowing that, we should continue making the same shoddy

laws? We should not improve? No one is expecting anything to be perfect. But to buy something you know is broken is simply foolish. To intentionally built it broken is more than foolish, it is despicable.
I really dislike the message Congress keeps sending to the youth, to the nation, this 'we can't do better' and 'settle for half a loaf', and all of those messages, they break my heart as one who grew up hearing far better things about our country, and flourished for the hearing of them. To hear our leadership make excuses for shoddy work, and promises to fix later what could be mended today is sad. It is a terrible message. Our national bar is being set so low some of us might trip over it.
Peace to you, and may America learn to dream not of this perfection you snark and sneer at, but to dream once again of excellence. Once that was our message, excellence, cutting the path, showing the way. Perfection, obviously not, not once, not even for a second. But excellence, personal best? Always. Acceptance of mediocrity as a way of life, a state of being? Never.
We'll never be perfect, of course. But we could excel rather than rationalize and excuse and put off until tomorrow that which is better done today.

[ProSense]

63. Nothing is perfect.

The first automobile wasn't perfect, neither was the first television.

Maybe people should have waited until flat panel monitors were introduced before buying a computer.

The analogies are getting ridiculous.

This is health care, and like ever other social program it is evolving. Maybe Medicare should have been killed until a national single payer system for all Americans could pass.

[Raineyb]

76. The first automobile didn't have a version to look at and borrow from. Neither did the

first television. We're not reinventing the wheel here. AT least there's no need to attempt to there are plenty of countries which cover ALL of its citizens which does not force its citizens to buy insurance from for profit companies who will look for a way to NOT pay claims. In fact, other countries have made it illegal to profit off of basic health care. That's why insurance companies in other countries cover cosmetic surgery, private rooms and other extras which while nice do not really have to do with actual care. People in those countries look at you like you're crazy when you tell them about people going bankrupt because they've become ill or of bake sales to raise money for medical treatment after the insurance company refused to pay for treatment.

Have we done that? No. Apparently the profits of the insurance companies are more important than people's health. So they slap together a half assed bit of foolishness designed to get people to think they've gotten health care reform but only guarantees the profits of the insurance companies. And even the bits of reform that they were actually willing to consider has been stripped in the name of "bipartisanship" Yet we're supposed to believe that this same set jokers are going to be able to come back later and FIX the fucking mess they passed in the first place? If they can't pass actual reform how the hell do you think they're going to pass a fix with the same preening corporate whores gumming up the works?

And if you think that more Democrats are going to be elected when people figure out that they're going to be paying out of pocket for a plan that doesn't do shit for them, that they can't afford to use because of deductibles and co-pays and that they STILL will end up filing for bankruptcy should they get hit with a major illness you're on crack. People will NOT vote for the party that forced them to buy shitty insurance that they can't use from companies who makes their money by taking in premiums and denying access to care.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

41. They're gonna fix it?

With what fucking majority??? After we get out asses handed (rightfully) to us in the midterms it's gonna be a l-o-n-g time before we have the kind of political ability/capital to make the MAJOR changes neeed to this piece if shit bill. :mad:



Source: The Hill

Senate Liberals Dissed on Health Bill
March 11, 2010
By Emily Pierce and David M. Drucker
Roll Call Staff

Senate Democratic leaders are concerned about the amount of mischief their own Members could create if or when a health care reconciliation bill comes up for debate. And sources said some supporters of creating a public insurance option are privately worried that they will be asked to vote against the idea during debate on the bill, which could occur before March 26.

Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) acknowledged Wednesday that liberals may be asked to oppose any amendment, including one creating a public option, to ensure a smooth ride for the bill. “We have to tell people, ‘You just have to swallow hard’ and say that putting an amendment on this is either going to stop it or slow it down, and we just can’t let it happen,” Durbin, who supports a public option, told reporters. “We have to move this forward. We know the Republicans are likely to offer a lot of amendments, and some of them may be appealing to Democrats, but we have to urge them to stick with the bill.”

Sen. Tom Carper (D-Del.), a leading centrist, suggested Democrats should be able to avoid blowing up a reconciliation package if there is ample negotiation on it before it hits the floor. But Carper appeared to warn his Democratic colleagues that any move to amend the reconciliation bill, however noble the policy aims, would only lead to chaos.

“If we have an agreement with the administration and the leadership of Senate Democrats and House Democrats on what should be in the reconciliation package, I’m sure I could think of plenty of ways to change it, and I’m sure every one of my colleagues could as well,” Carper said. “But that’s a slippery slope I don’t think we want to get on.”

Read more: http://www.rollcall.com/issues/55_102/news/44084-1.html...

[ProSense]

47. Cute title, except

it doesn't make sense given the "liberal" quoted

Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) acknowledged Wednesday that liberals may be asked to oppose any amendment, including one creating a public option, to ensure a smooth ride for the bill. “We have to tell people, ‘You just have to swallow hard’ and say that putting an amendment on this is either going to stop it or slow it down, and we just can’t let it happen,” Durbin, who supports a public option, told reporters. “We have to move this forward. We know the Republicans are likely to offer a lot of amendments, and some of them may be appealing to Democrats, but we have to urge them to stick with the bill.”

Now, there are 41 Senators supporting a public option via reconciliation. Only nine more needed from the majority:

Sen. Max Baucus
Sen. Evan Bayh
Sen. Mark Begich
Sen. Robert Byrd
Sen. Thomas Carper
Sen. Kent Conrad
Sen. Kay Hagann
Sen. Tom Harkin
Sen. Herb Kohl
Sen. Mary Landrieu
Sen. Blanche Lincoln
Sen. Claire McCaskill
Sen. Ben Nelson
Sen. Mark Pryor
Sen. John Rockefeller
Sen. Mark Warner
Sen. Jim Webb

[Oregone]

45. Breaking: Spineless capitulators promise to grow balls after capitulating

Place your bets!

[Lerkfish]

49. perfect visual!

[ProSense]

53. Breaking:

Democrats are about to make history, naysayers still unable to come to grips with reality.

[Oregone]

54. Yay! We get a "win"

Fuck sound policy. Isn't political football grand?



BTW, I think you missed the anology. Charlie Brown is the people, and the politicians are holding the ball. Don't overthink it

[ProSense]

56. Yes,

when the bill passes I will be cheering. What will you be doing?

[Oregone]

57. Laughing and shaking my head

What else can you do?

[saracat]

58. Reality? LOL!

[Lerkfish]

60. what republican request has obama turned down regarding health care?

the cartoon is cute, but is it accurate

[ProSense]

61. Killing the bill and starting over. n/t

[Lerkfish]

74. well, don't look now,but the bill, with republican extortion, is dead anyways

so in a sense he DID kill the bill

[Cha]

70. Yeah, and we're going to

do it without the relentless negative nellies.

[stranger81]

59. Perfectly said.

Sometimes the stupid is so thick here it hurts.

[Joe Chi Minh]

62. Surely, far from being energized to reform health-care to address the needs of the people,

rather than the fathomless avarice of the insurance corporations and Big Pharma, after the bill is passed, they will feel entitled to lapse into total inertia with regard to any such notion. "You've got your damned bill. Now, shut up! We've got more important business to deal with now."

[IndianaGreen]

64. Like they improved NAFTA and PATRIOT?

Congress track record is one of dismal failures after failures. I don't believe a word those crooks say!

[ibegurpard]

65. uh huh

[warm regards]

66. ...and many will be fooled again.

[hulka38]

67. Translation: The "we can get the PO if the people try hard enough charade is over"

[bvar22]

69. They're going to fix it later....really....no kidding....trust me....

"I am not a crook."

"I did not have sex with THAT woman."

"I did not campaign on a Public Option."

"We'll fix it later."

[jeanpalmer]

71. As Dennis says

you can't improve something that's built on sand.