While the public option was dying, we were having our 2 minutes of hate

[Oregone]

Could the incessant attacks against the left have potentially been organized as a distraction? What purpose did they serve?

Do you trust a spineless party that continually capitulates to put together a mostly beneficial bill, without elements they were lobbied to put in wholly poisoning the effort?

Can such a party--one that ostracizing the left, caters to the right, and gives up ground--really "fix" the bill?

[dave29]

1. you are hurting my head.

It's ok, it hurt before your post.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

2. I am cynical enough these days --

to say there is no intention of "fixing" the bill because it is the bill that most of the Democrats -- including O -- wants. :(

Welcome to our new reality. It sucks.

[Oregone]

4. Thats a good point

And while I say "spineless", thats giving them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they just want it exactly the way it is, and we use these mechanisms to deny it and cope with what we voted for.

[blindpig]

13. "mechanism to deny and cope"

You're on to something there, at least with some. People need to cut that shit out, got no time for that self-indulgent nonsense.

When has the ruling class not had it's way in the past 50 years? Or, with the exception of a few years during the New Deal, ever?

[alcibiades_mystery]

3. Melodrama

Cue the violins.

[Oregone]

6. You don't think calling for Kucinich's head for days was melodramatic?

Im actually trying to be a bit more analytical here by asking a few questions. If you don't want to take a stab at them, go ahead.

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. Riiiiight

Your post was measured and dispassionate.

:rofl:

[ProSense]

5. Ridiculous post. Kucinich's kill the bill stance is still despicable. And

people who care to make a difference now insist that Congress pass the bill.

"blocking health care reform is a crime."

Health Reform Myths

By PAUL KRUGMAN

<...>

The second myth is that the proposed reform does nothing to control costs. To support this claim, critics point to reports by the Medicare actuary, who predicts that total national health spending would be slightly higher in 2019 with reform than without it.

Even if this prediction were correct, it points to a pretty good bargain. The actuary’s assessment of the Senate bill, for example, finds that it would raise total health care spending by less than 1 percent, while extending coverage to 34 million Americans who would otherwise be uninsured. That’s a large expansion in coverage at an essentially trivial cost.

And it gets better as we go further into the future: the Congressional Budget Office has just concluded, in a new report, that the arithmetic of reform will look better in its second decade than it did in its first.

Furthermore, there’s good reason to believe that all such estimates are too pessimistic. There are many cost-saving efforts in the proposed reform, but nobody knows how well any one of these efforts will work. And as a result, official estimates don’t give the plan much credit for any of them. What the actuary and the budget office do is a bit like looking at an oil company’s prospecting efforts, concluding that any individual test hole it drills will probably come up dry, and predicting as a consequence that the company won’t find any oil at all — when the odds are, in fact, that some of the test holes will pan out, and produce big payoffs. Realistically, health reform is likely to do much better at controlling costs than any of the official projections suggest.

more

"clap louder for single-payer healthcare"

[Oregone]

7. Krugman thinks its "simulated single-payer"

So thank you for reciprocating with ridiculousness

[ProSense]

8. "clap louder" wasn't a compliment. n/t

[Spazito]

18. LOL!

:thumbsup:

[jefferson_dem]

9. "incessant attacks against the left"

:spray:

Irony Overload!

[Jennicut]

10. I think the obsession by people who both love and dislike Kucinich was completely ridiculous.

But it was not "orchestrated". Not everything is a conspiracy. Not all Dems agree on if this bill should be passed. DK is practically the only one on the "left" who won't vote for the bill. All the other so called arch leftists will vote for it. I can't count Massa, who completely self destructed on his own. The importance that people who dislike DK and the people who love him that was placed on this man was strange. Let him stand up for his principals, we don't need his vote. But DU likes to obsess over certain things.

[Oregone]

11. Perhaps not, but its most certainly ironic

While people here are ostracizing him, the Democrats they are giving a pass to are selling them off down the river (yet the pro-mandate crowd wont criticize them).

I am pretty ambivalent about Kucinich really. What I'm not ambivalent about is days worth of threads smearing him (and I say smear, because there were some distortions and lies put out there)

[dave29]

12. I do not think you are ambivalent about Kucinich

armchair psychology at work here

[Oregone]

14. I really am

He isn't my Rep. I appreciate that he gives lip service to real liberal ideas, though his elfy stature and squeekiness can just as easily turn people off to what he is saying. But at the end of the day, he is a politician. So I can't exactly trust a word coming out of his mouth, as with all politicians. I see him as a lightning rod that the majority hate and only a few are drawn to. I really cannot surmise, in terms of liberalism, if his effect is positive or negative. But he is most certainly more beneign than someone constantly hawking right wing, free market ideas.

[Jennicut]

17. Essentially how I feel about him. Not totally good or bad.

People are passionate for or against the HCR bill on this board. So someone like DK will attract the attention both good and bad. I think that is the simple explanation because he is so black and white and does not hem and haw. It is easier for everyone out there to either be on his side if they are against the bill or not on his side and a bit ticked off at him if they are for the bill. Hey, I was a psych major in college. The only thing I can explain about it is I see it in those terms.

[ShortnFiery]

21. I have earned a masters degree in physiological psychology.

However, I've discovered that the people who know most about the field are the ones who've had ONE SINGLE course. :evilgrin: Although I'm well educated, I do not deny my spicy temperament.

Newsflash: Psychology is not an exact science. However, the more I learn through perusal of journal resources, the more I am humbled by what I do NOT know. :shrug:

On a personal level: What I truly loathe more than right wing ideologies are the DO NOTHING centrist viewpoints. No I don't like endless pragmatism when Americans' LIVES are held in the balance.

IMNSHO based on both experience and education: Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way. :hi:

[Jennicut]

23. I graduated with a degree in psych in 1999. I am more befuddled then ever about

the state of the human mind and what leads people to think, react, and do certain things. And DU made me think in a more liberal way and turned me from a mushy middle centrist type into an actual liberal. At least I hope. And George Bush had something to do with that too. :)

[ShortnFiery]

28. That's good news.

I've allowed myself to become too jaded because of my extensive study of Propaganda and PSYOPS.

The Corporate Media is playing us against each other. It's the classic "divide and conquer" in order to keep the present moneyed interest in control of our nation. If you want proof, switch between our USA M$M news stations to EuroNews, RT, Al Jazzera and France24. Notice how the news is *presented* usually without excessive political spin? Given, each network has it's own prejudices highlighted by the origin of the news source. But there is a lack of DISTORTION and DISINFORMATION that we find on every single USA M$M network ... to include NPR. :wtf:

There is NOTHING left-wing or liberal about any of our main stream politics. To even entertain such a though is buying into the M$M propaganda. I fear we have already fallen into the abyss because the power elite controls ALL our national media outlets. The major multi-national corporations OWN the USA. It's yet to be seen if they can take this control world-wide.

The most positive I can be is to purport that we are living in *interesting times.*

[Jennicut]

30. Well, the US media is way to the right of other countries.

Obama is center left to center right on every issue and yet he is a "socialist" per Faux. At CNN, he is taking "dangerous steps" by possibly using reconciliation. MSNBC is not much better until the nighttime. I have given up on our news.

[ShortnFiery]

31. This is a complement of sorts.

President Obama is like so many brilliant professors I've enjoyed over the years. He's the eternal optimist. My respect for his intellect is absolute BUT that's not what we need as a President. Obama would make the ideal Attorney General. We need a bright but ASSERTIVE President. Someone who is not hesitant to tell the GOP what Bill Mahr suggested (Suck it! :blush:).

I grew up in a right wing family where some of them were sorely tempted to join The Birch Society. They didn't do that, but they were TEMPTED. As such, I KNOW that the right wing NEVER COMPROMISES. They view negotiations as "a war" and anyone who tries to hold out "an olive branch" should figuratively pull back "a bloody stump."

The right wing does NOT ever forgive either.

I wish President Obama knew the above: Perhaps he would lead differently if he grew up around the right wingers of this Nation?

[Jennicut]

32. My parents are totally conservative as well, love Rush and Glenn Beck and Faux news.

The fact that I am a liberal that voted for Clinton, Gore, Kerry, and Obama (and for Ned Lamont against Lieberman) do not endear them to me but they have learned to accept me as I am or don't be in my life at all.
Obama has very little experience but also is able to not have preconcieved notions either. He may learn, as Bill Clinton did, how to play the Rethugs.

[RainDog]

35. excellent post

and so true.

Americans are so isolated they don't realize how much the media lies to them here.

They don't know what it's like to have a media that discusses the issues with more than one pov represented, or to have liars called on their lies.

I don't think it will happen, but I think what the U.S. needs is a time, like after the overthrow of Pinochet, when the people of the nation had to come to terms with some harsh truths.

Back in the day, I dated a guy from Chili who denied that anyone had been murdered in the soccer stadiums. People like him had to be made to admit truths that put their entire lives in a different light, since he had been shielded from all of this by his family's position.

Chili published official documents and put them online with free access. It published first-hand accounts of people who had been tortured and who had seen their fellow students murdered.

The sad thing about the U.S. in relation to all this is that, with the PTB's attention focused on the middle east, south american nations are finally getting to decide their own fates and flourishing. it's sad because it only could happen after we stopped interfering with their rights to create their own governments.

I'm tired of being that nation. I want to be a better nation than that.

[ShortnFiery]

37. Thank-you.

Harsh truths that the US People must face? Indeed! You nailed it.

Hope springs eternal that we can eventually BREAK-UP the large media conglomerations within the USA.

Without a truly independent media, many within the American populace are too busy making ends meet to pay attention.

[Cali_Democrat]

15. It's all an orchestrated conspiracy by paid operatives

:tinfoilhat:

[Oregone]

20. Hardly...but most of the pro-mandate Kucinich smearers claim he is part of some vast RW conspiracy

I did up a bunch of photoshops to essentially parody the mass paranoia and ridiculousness; its difficult to stop laughing at some of the assertions. What a strange amount of energy aimed at smearing a man that could otherwise have been used for pressuring their reps to support a public option (though, I must say, both aren't going to accomplish a whole lot at the end of the day).

Most of this is probably part of some personal internal strife people have. Instead of look critically where the party is failing as a whole, they can scapegoat a single man not toeing the party line.

[HughMoran]

16. It's actually voodoo

:tinfoilhat:

[ShortnFiery]

19. Too funny! I was thinking the exact same thing.

The CORPORATE FASCIST media is at it again ... firing up those easily swayed.

Speaking of the obligatory 5 minutes of hate, remember when they STUCK THEIR FILTHY TENTACLES into McKinney? I submit, because she was a woman of color, THE HATE SPEWED HERE was even more vicious and bitter than the little league hate-fest orchestrated against Dennis Kucinich over the past few days. Oh yes, those who love Corporate Control (and their duped sycophants) of our nation can be ultra-vicious and vile.

[ProSense]

26. You were thinking Kucinich looks like a cult figure? n/t

[Oregone]

27. Emmanuel Goldstein was a cult figure?

You probably missed the reference I was going for. I don't expect you to be well read.

[DrToast]

22. Oh please...the public option died last fall

[Oregone]

25. I realize that, but isn't it fun to play along with the Kabuki theater?

We were all pretending for so long that the heroic Democrats will fix the bill and put one in, and that only the trollish conspiratorial Kucinich would try and kill the entire thing. Oh, I just get so caught up in the narrative of the moment.


To be honest, I'm really surprised its not there at least in symbol to pacify those who demanded it, while it was still in its most ambiguous form. Thats perplexing really.

[freddie mertz]

29. Actually, it was dead by August. The "sliver" speech gave the game away.

Even before that, I have come to conclusion that it was never really in the cars.

Just a shiny object dangled before us, to keep us stupid and trusting.

Never again.

[freddie mertz]

24. We shall know them by their targets.

Silence or acquiescence on Stupak.

Constant vitriolic attacks on DK and other progressives.

This is how we shall know them.

[gkhouston]

33. Which death of the P.O. would that be? It's died and come back enough times to

star in a slasher flick. I'm not writing it off until after the President signs the reconciliation bill.

[slipslidingaway]

36. And in the end Kucinich was correct in September when he said...

that the senate and final bill will not have a public option.

There was a thread posted in GDP linking to the Daily Kos post by Kucinich.


And another in GD...

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6554466&mesg_id=6554466

A lesson in politics. The Kucinich Prediction: Here's what's going to happen ...

1. House will make a big deal about keeping/putting a public option in HR3200 because it competes with insurance companies and will keep insurance rates low.
2. The White House will refer to the President's speech last week where he spoke favorably of the public option.
3. The Senate will kill the competitive public option in favor of non-competitive "co-ops". Senate leaders like Kent Conrad have said the votes to pass a public option were never there in the Senate.
4. The bill will come to a House-Senate Conference Committee without the public option.
5. House Democrats will be told to support the conference report on the legislation to support the President.
6. The bill will pass, not with a "public option" but with a private mandate requiring 30 million uninsured to buy private health insurance (if one doesn't already have it). If you are broke, you may get a subsidy. If you are not broke, you will get a fine if you do not purchase insurance.

This legislative sausage will be celebrated as a new breakthrough and will be packaged as health insurance reform. However, the bill may require a Surgeon General's warning label: Your Money or Your Life!

The bill that Congress passes may pale in comparison to the bill that millions of Americans will get every month/year for having or not having private health insurance.

It will take four years for the new legislation to go into effect. During that time we are going to build a constituency of millions in support of real health care, a constituency which will be recognized and a cause which is right and just: Health Care as a Civil Right.

Join our efforts..."

[ShortnFiery]

38. "Join our efforts..."

Count me "in" as part of the team. :-)

It will take four years for the new legislation to go into effect. During that time we are going to build a constituency of millions in support of real health care, a constituency which will be recognized and a cause which is right and just: Health Care as a Civil Right.

[slipslidingaway]

40. Thanks :) the sad part is we could have transitioned to a national

universal HC system in that time, instead we might be just beginning and probably will not even be doing that.

:(

[ProSense]

39. "House will make a big deal about keeping/putting a public option in HR3200 " And

Kucinich will proceed to vote against it.

The bill Congress passes will offer a plan similar to the Kucinich enjoys, with the additional benefit of including a non-profit plan. It will also include Bernie Sander's state single payer provision.

This bill is an excellent start.

[slipslidingaway]

41. He was right ...

and here is my post to you on the state SP language.


Bottom of your thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=214858&mesg_id=214858

"I'm certainly no expert on the potential legal challenges to the language in the bill, which is not even finalized yet, or at least not available for the public to see.

I do know that the insurance companies will vigorously fight any state SP bills that they believe could erode their profits and feel that every effort should be made to have language in the bill which makes this as easy as possible.

There is no reason to trade the Kucinich language for the Sanders language, combine the two and make it best for the people, unless those who currently hold power really do want a loophole for insurance companies to use.


Here is what Pelosi said about the Kucinich state SP amendment being stripped from the final bill...

"An amendment to allow states to pursue single-payer health care without incurring insurance-industry lawsuits was stripped from the House bill, Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said Thursday, adding that it would break the
President Obama's commitment to people keeping their current insurance plan if they like it..."


How to Get a State Single Payer Opt-Out as Part of Reconciliation

http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/03/08/how-to-get-a-state-single-payer-opt-out-as-part-of-reconciliation/

"The current Senate health care bill has a provision (Section 1332. Waiver for State Innovation (PDF)) that will allow states to opt out of the current reform structure if they can provide the same level of care for the same amount or cheaper with a different plan. Given how poorly designed the Senate bill is, that shouldn’t be hard on a policy level. In theory, this could allow for state-based single payer plans, and reconciliation could deal with two major problems with the provision.

Delayed Until 2017

The first problem is the date of implementation. States can’t apply for the waiver until 2017, which is completely ridiculous. There is no reason for the delay, and it would make state innovation very difficult to implement. It would first require states to go through all the work of setting up the new system of exchanges for 2014, only to turn around and try to replace it with another new system three years later.

The other big problem with the date is that 2017 would be right after Obama left office (assuming that he served two terms). Since it is very rare for one party to hold the presidency for three straight terms, it will likely be a Republican in the White House in 2017. Assume their HHS secretary would not be open to granting the waiver for a state-based single payer system, it would likely not be until 2020 or 2024 that this provision could be used for creating state single payer, and that assumes a supportive Democratic president is elected. This is completely unacceptable.."