People on his left yelling 'corporatist!', on his right 'socialist!', Barack Obama forges ahead

[HughMoran]

The average voter who hears both sides looks and says to his/her buddy "hey, I don't know if this Healthcare stuff is good or bad, but what we have now ain't gettin' any better, that's for sure! Besides, this guy is sticking to his guns - I like a guy who doesn't back down. If he thinks it's worth fighting for, then perhaps we should give him a chance".

This very American thinking (we like winners and we hate losers and quitters) was mentioned by one of the TV pundits yesterday and it struck a chord with me.

[Cha]

1. As always..with his vision that's been doing

wonders to get us out of the downward spiral of the orwellianbushcheney torturuous years.

[jefferson_dem]

2. The folks on the nutty right and the purity left are equally nauseating.

You have to hand it to POTUS for having to deal with the constant barrage of bullshit, with total class, at least.

[demosincebirth]

7. I agree

[Raine1967]

12. You DAMN DLC CENTRIST! (I JOKE -- please read on)

The Hyperbole is really getting out of hand.

I am a proud liberal. I am tired of being denigrating from the left and the right.

This bill is the right thing to do. I tire of people trying denigrate my opinion (and others trying to honestly discuss the the bills and what they include) here on DU.

They might call themselves progressives -- but they don't really seem like Dems, they call out liberals by saying they are DLC. There are a good number of people who actually seem like they are arguing for the same reasons that the insurance company lobbyists and the Republicans use to try to kill health care reform. Facts are met with rhetoric and hyperbole by HCR detractors.

Yes. I said it. I am sick of it. For those detractors: STOP telling people on DU it's an insurance company giveaway -- the GOP WANTS you to say that.

You are being played for fools. Don't you all think that the Health insurance lobby is fighting this for a reason?

[jefferson_dem]

16. Hear Hear...

Great post!

For the record, I couldn't give a rat's ass for the DLC either. I just want to balance principle with what works. :hi:

[Bobbie Jo]

52. +1000

[Cosmocat]

17. Unfortunately ...

spot on ...

NOW, the extreme right does more damage by a far sight ... But, I have said since before he won the election, he is a mirror for both extremes - they saw/see in him what they WANT to see in him ...

[Fruittree]

19. Agreed..

[Hansel]

28. The continuum of the political ideology appears not to be a straight line...

but rather, a circle.

I think it's a matter of both thought and analytical process as well as political ideology. There are dichotomous thinkers on both the left and the right. On the circle, and back-to-back, the far right and the far left stand right next to each other.

[Go2Peace]

65. Only in America is the thought of a full spectrum of ideas reduced to two

In Europe, where people come in all flavors and are free to express a variety of views they LAUGH at thoughts like yours.

[IndianaGreen]

37. DLC is the purity ideologues

They never compromise on anything, and they expect the Left to give up everything.

[Forkboy]

49. The purist charge is projection.

The left has always had to compromise. I've compromised on every single vote I've ever cast since 1986 (when I was old enough TO vote). Tell me, J.D., what compromise did the centrists make in voting for another centrist?

[jefferson_dem]

54. Sorry, not buying it.

I was referring to policy-making not elections. In the two-party system, we all compromise when it comes to casting ballots unless we run and vote for ourselves.

Obama is not a centrist anyway. He's a mod-progressive pragmatic technocrat. He's interested in honest policy-making and implementing what works rather than strict allegiance to political strategy (Bill Clinton) or ideology (on the left and the right). That's what this nation needs right now. No compromise needed.

[Forkboy]

55. "He's a mod-progressive pragmatic technocrat."

I like ya, dude, but run that one down Main Street and let me know how it works for you. Expect the "WTF are you talking about?" look though, followed by a rush to the right side lever in the voting booth.

And again, what did YOU compromise when you voted for Obama? Isn't it a little presumptuous to mock others over compromise when you didn't have to yourself? And isn't it even more obnoxious when the people you're talking to have made compromises on their beliefs for decades when you haven't? :shrug:

[jefferson_dem]

56. "Expect the "WTF are you talking about?" look"

:spray: Touche. But I stand by my point.

Guess I was fortunate that my preferred candidate won. That hasn't always been the case. I was a Jerry Brown guy in 1992, a Bradley guy in 2000, and a Dean guy (initially) in 2004. I believe I would have taken this same position (fight for real progress rather than ideological purity) if Hillary was POTUS rather than Obama. That's just me.

[Forkboy]

57. I'll take your word for it.

I don't always agree, but you're one of the good ones, imo.

I do note that my true question remains unanswered though...what did you compromise in the 2008 election? What did the "purists" want that you didn't, and of those which positions did Obama take that you didn't agree with, if anything?

Not saying I'm right in all my positions or that you're wrong, just that calling those who have always compromised "purists" is really a stretch, especially coming from those who didn't really have to compromise at all. Would you agree with that? You didn't tell me what you compromised, and you still use the word purity as a bad thing while expecting it of others. :shrug:

[Cha]

58. Hear Hear!!

"Obama is not a centrist anyway. He's a mod-progressive pragmatic technocrat. He's interested in honest policy-making and implementing what works rather than strict allegiance to political strategy (Bill Clinton) or ideology (on the left and the right). That's what this nation needs right now. No compromise needed."

If one could ever label Pres Obama..this is it.

[treestar]

68. Both extremes have to compromise

If in a minority, one generally has to. That's just reality, not unfair. It would be unfair for the majority who don't agree to be forced to give in to a minority. The system gives minorities power, too, but making it difficult to change anything - generally the right, since they don't want the government involved in anything.

[mdmc]

3. yup. Obama will come out of this smellin like a rose

no one will be able to unseat him in 2012. no one..

[vaberella]

10. Hah. I'd be thankful. n/t

[damonm]

4. There's always been...

...a cynical part of me that says:

"if the Left hates something AND the Right hates it too, that's probably good policy..."

[tridim]

5. One of his best qualities IMO.

Steady, like rock.

[DrDan]

6. well - he has finally found his guns to stick to . . . that is a good thing

[pocoloco]

8. Don't you just love the transparency!!

No closed meetings!!

[Hansel]

29. Closed meetings is where the work gets done, like it or not.

The open sessions are nothing but grand standing and hyperbole. The more the cameras are there for these fools to play to less legitimate work that gets done.

[Change Happens]

9. That's why he is the leader......................nt

[FrenchieCat]

11. Keeping my eye on the Prize, even if it ain't the one I was dreaming of......

[JuniperLea]

14. You can't always get what you want...

But if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need!

[FrenchieCat]

15. True.

[JuniperLea]

13. Doing the right thing in this environment isn't "popular" at all...

The Bush failings are like lead in his pockets, but he trudges on, no matter how far down his pants are pulled. Those who took their eyes off the lead only see butt... like looking in a mirror.

[Donnachaidh]

18. he doesn't have a problem ignoring VOTERS

change we can believe in, right?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brentspeak]

21. Actually, it's mostly people in the CENTER who are pointing out Obama's a corporatist

What passes for the "left" these days would have been right-down-the-middle during the New Deal days.

Oh, and Obama IS a corporatist; when a President gives trillions of tax dollars to private industry, that is exactly the definition of "corporatism". Pretty much the opposite of the Democratic party up until Bill Clinton.

[TheWraith]

27. "Trillions of tax dollars to private industry"? WHERE?

Please point out the exact location of these mythical trillions of dollars. Because that claim is pretty full of crap, and you won't be able to prove it in the least.

[brentspeak]

32. You are joking, right?

You didn't just wake up from a 5-year sleep?

http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/27/news/bigger.bailout.fortune/index.htm">Bank bailout could cost $4 trillion

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/politics&id=7290498">Obama puts forward $1 trillion health care plan (Hint: the $1 trillion goes to private insurance companies).

[Hansel]

33. The bank bailout was passed on Bush's watch.

But you know that.

[O is 44]

38. Thanks Hansel for calling out the lie of the bank

bailout, so many liberals mad at this President accuse him of the bank bailout. Thom Hartman does it a lot.

[brentspeak]

42. And did you know this?

1) http://metavid.org/wiki/Stream:Senate_proceeding_10-01-08_00/2:38:38/2:53:07">Obama, on the Senate floor, delivering long speech on behalf of passing TARP

2) http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/10/obama-urges-bai.html">Senator Barack Obama, on the campaign trail, pledged to telephone wavering House of Representatives members to urge them to support the legislation.

ABC News' Sunlen Miller Reports: Senator Obama, at a rally before almost 15,000 people in Wisconsin, admitted the emergency economic bailout plan wasn't perfect but urged Congress to pass the bill in order to prevent a financial catastrophe.

"I've been reaching out to leaders in both parties to do whatever I can to help pass this plan," Obama said, "I'll be flying back to Washington today to cast my vote to safeguard the American economy."

3) http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2008/09/24/obama_and_mccain_issue_joint_s.html">Obama and McCain, during campaign, issue joint statement urging passage of bailout bill

Obama was basically the Democratic party's point-man in helping Bush get TARP passed.

[O is 44]

44. He was only the point man as you call it because

he was the candidate for President for the Dems. There were a lot of things that were not known at the time, which the Bush administration was not releasing. I do not fault Obama on this as a senator. You still have not proven that he is a corporatist from what he has done as the President.

[treestar]

70. Why are you against that - would you have preferred another Depression?

[brentspeak]

79. .

Oh, no! We'll have a..a..a d-d-d-depression unless we give bankers hundreds of billions to trillions of dollars...right now!!! :scared:

[treestar]

69. The purpose of that was to keep the economy from collapsing

Not specifically to just give away money for the heck of it.

If the economy collapsed, it would have affect many people negatively.

[Donnachaidh]

30. who you calling a Centrist, Willis?

put em up, put em up!!! :sarcasm:

[brentspeak]

43. I consider myself a centrist -- a conservative traditionalist, even

I want America to return to the sound economic policies put forth by FDR-through-LBJ. Even Nixon was an economic progressive compared to the corporate Democrats we have today.

[Donnachaidh]

45. okay -- if you put it that way

I agree with you. I just pulled out a book about the 2nd Bill of Rights that was never implemented. Perhaps the next Democratic President will have the cajones to try for them - after he/she corrects the problems STILL left untouched. I don't hold out much *hope* for this one. Ironic, ain't it?

[ShortnFiery]

75. +1000

:thumbsup:

[denimgirly]

23. What i see is a man who likes to divide it down the middle -- That can be bad.

What i notice is that voters seem to respect a side who stays true to their beliefs and fights for it. This is why people like Alan Grayson can be polled against Republicans in a republican poll and win...people on both sides respect his strength.

Obama is a natural politician and so will try to pander to both sides to make himself look centrist which is a problem because then the sides will seem him as a corporatist AND a socialist at the same time. He isn't really standing strong on anything but prefers to be bendable. Yes this can be good but doing it for everything even in critical issues such as Healthcare and Finance reform is preceived weakness.

I, respect a side that is strong in their beliefs (who doesnt sell out to lobbyists)....so people like Weiner, Grayson, Sanders, and Kucinich are my favs. They dont back down even if they lose. All we need is a party of vertebrate leaders and we can do anything...until then caving and unnecessary compromises will be considered sheek.

I know i will get flamed by this but in history the greatest remembered leaders are always the ones that took a stand and fought for the people, not compromise or sell them out.

[Bugenhagen]

25. Nicely put. NT

[Oregone]

24. Ahead towards what?

[HughMoran]

39. You wouldn't understand

It's not negative....

[Oregone]

50. Probably not. Im a liberal after all

[HughMoran]

59. Liberals don't have to be miserable

:P

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheWraith]

26. Kicked and recommended.

Despite getting stonewalled by the Repubs, and tooled by the Dems, he's still not giving up. It's that persistence that's actually going to net us some healthcare reform. Not the ideal most of us would like, but a hell of a lot better than the status quo.

[Canuckistanian]

31. Proud to be one of those yelling 'corporatist'

I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

[HughMoran]

40. There's a surprise

I don't think you 'calls 'em as you sees 'em' as you've become a caricature for those who can and never will be happy. Sorry, I no longer see you as a legitimate critic.

[Canuckistanian]

46. I can't see

How I can be a more distant observer. I'm Canadian.

I've been an observer of American politics for 30 years. And I can say that Obama is one of the most corporate-friendly Democratic presidents you've had in a LONG time.

Accept it. Argue with it. Refute it.

I'm happy where I am.

Are you?

[CTLawGuy]

74. why don't you worry about your own politicians?

thank you.

I, as an American, would be very reluctant to go onto a pro-Liberal Party website and bash its leadership.

[Armstead]

34. He's sticking to his guns loaded withy blanks

I got into a long argument,er discussion, with my brother about that.

He was talking abo0ut how gutsy Obama is being, in pushing for this regardless of the political consequences.

My response? Why did he not do that a year ago, and for the things that would have actually meant something?

[asdjrocky]

35. The difference is the people on the right are insane.

[HughMoran]

41. ok

:yoiks:

[IndianaGreen]

36. If Obama were a socialist, we would all have single payer, the bankers would be in jail

together with the financiers that ruined our economy, and all of our troops would be home or almost home. Pax Americana replaced by Pax Patria!

[O is 44]

51. You are dreaming if you think this would pass

congress, he is not a dictator.

[IndianaGreen]

53. If we had an American version of the Bolivarian Revolution, it would pass the Congress

The Venezuelan people approved a new constitution several years ago that swept from the levers of power all the entrenched reactionary elements. A new Congress was elected that truly represented the people, not the corporations. New judges were elected to replaced the putrid judiciary that only protected the powerful against the weak.

Change We Can Really Believe In!

[treestar]

71. A Socialist Congress would also be necessary

Your ideal world is a dictatorship with a left winger at the helm.

Notice that those which did exist were not peaceful.

[jenmito]

47. K&R. You're exactly right. And both sides are equally wrong. n/t

[NorthCarolina]

48. "Corporatist" is clearly the most accurate depiction. A true "Socialist" would never have abondoned

single payer health care for all in favor of a For Profit system. Obama never even considered single payer nor even a Public Option to compete with private insurance. That is the earmark of a Corporatist...certainly not a Socialist.

[FrenchieCat]

60. Name calling don't mean shit.

That's what children do.

[Fruittree]

66. I'm sorry

But where was the bill that offered single payer or the public option? He can only sign what comes to his desk. He did speak up in favor or the public option and who's to know it won't happen in the future? Name calling and digging in ones heels for anything but the perfect means no progress...

[treestar]

72. Because Congress would have to be in on it?

Why does Congress never get any credit or blame?

[awoke_in_2003]

61. Well, duh...

we all know he is a socialist fascist :)

[RandomKoolzip]

62. Yeah, except that the people on the left are correct.

I'm sooooo tired of this right/left equivalency thing. The left is usually right about most issues and history tends to prove this. We were right about Vietnam, we were right about civil rights, we were right about Nixon, we were right about Reagan, we were right about Bush, we were right about both Iraq wars, we were right about climate change, and now we're right about this shitty healthcare compromise. If you've got both left and right yelling at you, it's not because you're doing the right thing, it's because you're not doing anything.

We all like fighters. Trouble is, i like fighters who fight for what's good and right for the largest number of people, not fighters who fight for the rich guys at the top, or even fighters who fight for their own political survival in the polls.

[HughMoran]

77. I agree

The people on the left, are, of course, correct.

The fact of the matter is, twice as many people self-describe themselves as 'conservative' versus 'liberal'.

IF people on the left were a bit more accepting of those who need a hand in understanding certain issues (educate versus condemn), perhaps there wouldn't be the success of the right-wing talking point machine.

I also think you're mischaracterizing this bill big time - this will help millions of people with it's many provisions protecting the insured and the exchanges will save me thousands of dollars a year as health care is all but unaffordable at my small business ($36,000/year for a family plan!! - I kid you not.)

Please consider than many on the left do support this bill - the 83% of MoveOn who said "Pass the Senate Bill" are thinking with their heads, and not just their hearts.

[democracy1st]

63. once again the left is right!

[Warren Stupidity]

67. One side is reality based, the other is delusional.

This guy has not stuck to his guns. He has handed over almost everything to the health insurance cartel in exchange for a massively flawed bill that, sadly, is all we are going to get, 45 years after a Democratic congress passed single payer universal health care for senior citizens.

[pampango]

73. Unfortunately, both sides believe that (the other is delusional). Of course, we really are right and

the other side really is delusional.

Obama must get tired of "the other side is delusional". Rather than discuss policy pros and cons with a little give-and-take from all sides, my guess is that policy meetings are more "my (left/right) way is the only way and the other side's ideas are just plain crazy. You touch their ideas and you're a socialist corporatist."

Perhaps Obama is reality-based, understands the reality of how things are, the possible positive changes that can be enacted now, and leaves the perfect solutions for later in his administration or for future presidents.

[depakid]

76. Jimmy Carter

[HughMoran]

78. It's called being 'pragmatic'

Of course, that word is a curse word to the 'all or nothing' thinkers, but as you point out, you can't discuss options with a sign-post.