Who's having a 'temper tantrum,' Rep. Weiner?

[flpoljunkie]

(And, who appears to be letting Israel's right wing attempt to throw a wrench in the peace process? A. It's not President Obama or his administration.)

Weiner: White House should stop 'temper tantrum' on Israel

New York Rep. Anthony Weiner is adding his voice to the criticism of the White House's response to an ill-timed Israeli construction decision, and in sharper terms than his colleagues.

“The appropriate response was a shake of the head – not a temper tantrum," Weiner said in a statement to be released shortly. “Israel is a sovereign nation and an ally, not a punching bag. Enough already.”

Posted by Ben Smith 11:48 AM

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0310/Weiner_White_House_should_stop_temper_tantrum_on_Israel.html?showall

[vaberella]

1. When did the WH have a temper tantrum?!

Dude...Israel is way out of fuckin' line here. Realize that.

[Jennicut]

2. I really like Weiner on other issues but on this he is horrendous.

Precisely part of Obama's problems with regard to Israel. Repubs AND Dems, even very liberal ones, put Israel above the US.

[denimgirly]

6. +10,000 -- Israel is making a mokgery of the US and its time they 'tempered'

[TwilightGardener]

3. Not helpful.

[denimgirly]

4. Very Surprised he is saying this...He is Right on Other Issues...Not this!

[Pirate Smile]

5. Ugghh. This is the sh#$ I was dreading. The Dems attacking the Administration on this

and it isn't the RW Dems I'm worried about. It is the Weiners and others doing it. That is EXACTLY why nothing gets changed regarding Israel, Middle East peace, etc.

Congress is the fu#$ing problem. The RW attacks Obama on it and then you have the Dems who also back Israel no matter what - even if it is a RW Israeli Administration.

Shame on, Weiner.

[denimgirly]

7. Damn it..Weiner was looking like the Superstar of the Dems...Now this....Damn it!

[Sebastian Doyle]

8. Israel has had a "temper tantrum" since 1995.

Seriously, every leader there has been insane since they JFK'd Rabin. Sharon & NuttyYahoo being the worst of them. And when Sharon attempted a slight amount of sanity, look what they did to him.

[leftynyc]

9. Sigh

While I understand where Rep Weiner is coming from, this is not helpful. Unfortunately in this political environment, everything is considered in only black and white. If you come down on Israel, it's determined (by those who make the news) that you're on the side of those who are perceived to be against Israel's right to exist (and spare me the fucking outrage - not interested in fighting about perception).

Where is the administration's lecture about Egypt (also a recipient of foreign aid). Women are treated like shit, other religions are treated like shit, corruption galore. It can be played as taking one side over the other (and will be). Regardless of how this board feels, the reality is that most Americans support Israel.

[flpoljunkie]

11. It is possible to both support Israel and the moving forward of the peace process

Petraeus on Israel
Posted by JOE KLEIN

The neoconservatives who worship General David Petraeus may not be too pleased with this--a briefing Petraeus prepared for his boss, Admiral Mike Mullen, on the regional problems being raised by Israel's instransigence on the settlements issue. If Israel were taking a moral position that upset the regional Arabs, like defending its right to exist (a limited strike in self-defense against the Hamas rocketers in Gaza, for example), I'd say that Arab disapproval would be a geo-strategic cost that we, as Israel's ally, would have to live with.

But this is different: Israel is clearly in the wrong and, according to the Petraeus briefing, it is hurting American foreign policy in the region. In fact, Israel is doubly wrong: its non-stop lobbying for war with Iran is also exceedingly dangerous (the US Joint Chiefs of Staff have unanimously counseled against war with Iran). The fact that David Petraeus, a hero to many on the right, is concerned about Israel's intransigence should give AIPAC and the neocons pause. It won't, but it should.

http://swampland.blogs.time.com/#ixzz0iMS3sMNW

[leftynyc]

12. Of course it is

I'm a big supporter of Israel and I want to kick their ass for this stunt. But we have all watched the media take what is a perfectly reasonable position and turn it on its head. You can expect that to happen with this - especially when you have both Democrats and Republicans going after the administration. The reality in this black and white world is that people pick sides - and Americans are solidly on the Israeli side.

[flpoljunkie]

27. Some might argue that being on the side of Israel is being on the side of the peace process.

[leftynyc]

47. I think both sides want peace

They just can't seem to get past their worse natures to get it. The warmongers on both sides scream the loudest and therefore get most of the attention.

[flpoljunkie]

50. Israel needs to deal effectively with those who would try to blow up the peace process.

Netanyahu does not seem to be able to do so.

[leftynyc]

63. I agree with you

Just as I think the right wing is dangerous here, same is true in Israel. By the way, which leader of the Palestinians governing the Gaza strip is the peacemonger?

[BeyondGeography]

10. Enough already?

Pretty rich.

[Malikshah]

13. A shake of the head? What's that Weiner? Does one shake the head when people are

ethnically cleansed? Really? Get real and stop being a douchebag for dimwits.

[robinblue]

16. He is Jewish as an FYI.

[harkadog]

40. Which means what exactly?

[Malikshah]

45. And that matters how? Inhumanity knows no ethnicity...

[karynnj]

74. So are the people at J Street - and they agree with the administration here - not in Israel

The newer, much smaller, less powerful counterpart to AIPAC - http://jstreet.org/

Just as I don't agree with all actions from all US Presidents, Jews do not agree with all actions of Israel's PM.

[tranche]

14. Maybe when he said a "shake of the head" he meant...

something else.

[harkadog]

15. Weiner is 100% correct here.

The U.S. has no business telling Israel where it can build or not build within its borders. Since the Palestinians refuse to even be in the same room with Israeli negotiators Israel must move forward without them.

[ShortnFiery]

17. Only if we recognize them as our 51st state and they pay taxes.

:silly:

[harkadog]

22. The aren't a 51st state so that is why we have no right

to tell them where they can build housing settlements. Get it? What other nation in the world do we tell where they can build and where they can't?

[ShortnFiery]

25. It's against all previous agreements. No, sometimes I wonder if Israel is considered

US Territory? No joke. :shrug:

[harkadog]

29. The Palestinians have repudiated all previous agreements.

So thanks to them those "agreements" are off the table.

[ShortnFiery]

32. At some point in time ALL SIDES are going to have to keep their promises ...

otherwise it's endless war. Hell, they're not even in OUR (the USA's) neighborhood. Why can't we pull back and JUST WATCH? :shrug:

[harkadog]

39. I guess we could

But if that is our policy let's pull out of all areas not in our neighborhood. Such as Europe, Africa and Asia.

[ShortnFiery]

41. Hey, might as well. We're all interconnected via trade. IMO, it serves no useful purpose

to keep warmongering with our neighbors ... anywhere.

I feel sorrow for all parties in the Middle East, but as an American deist, I don't have vested interests. That makes it difficult to understand the horrific cycle of violence.

[Hippo_Tron]

43. Israel gets a large amount of military aid from the United States

And I have no problem offering them this military aid. I also have no problem with them being a sovereign nation and making their own decisions. I do have a problem with the notion that their decisions are none of our business when we are sending them so much aid.

[harkadog]

48. We send Egypt and Jordan a great amount of aid also.

Yet we are silent about the dictatorial and corrupt Egyptian government. We are silent we it comes to their intolerance towards other religions and their attitudes towards women. A double standard at work.

[Hippo_Tron]

49. We send Egypt and Jordan aid as a bribe for not attacking Israel

We also send them Egypt aid because the Muslim Brotherhood would be a lot less conducive to both US and Israeli interests than the dictatorial corrupt misogynist regime that they have now.

You're reaching for some kind of double standard that doesn't really exist. I want Israel to stop building settlements in East Jerusalem just as I want Egypt and Jordan to start respecting human rights. But making US military aid conditional on that sort of thing isn't practical because Mubarak knows he's the only game in town and that the US has no choice but to support him no matter what he does on human rights. Israel doesn't have that kind of leverage (although what they lack in leverage, they make up for with strong political support in the US). There's nothing hypocritical about suggesting that we use leverage in a situation that it could be effective in and recognize that while we wish we could use it in another situation, we simply don't have that leverage.

[harkadog]

58. A bribe for not attacking Israel?

I believe they have tried that a few times now and it hasn't worked out too well for them. Maybe we should stop giving them the bribe and see what happens. Let's see them attack Israel yet again.

[Hippo_Tron]

73. I'd much rather pay for peace then see people needlessly die in a war

But if you prefer the other outcome then we'll have to agree to disagree.

[harkadog]

75. If you think that if cutting off aid to Egypt and Jordan

would result in either of them attacking Israel you clearly have no idea of the forces there.

[Hippo_Tron]

79. All out war probably not, not since Israel got the bomb

But our original rationale for providing aid to them was to stop them from attacking Israel and our relationships with them are conditional. They might start fighting proxy wars with Israel the way Iran does with Hezbollah and Hamas and if not relations would be murky at best. Furthermore, Egypt controls the Suez canal and a second Suez crisis wouldn't be something I would like to see.

[harkadog]

80. Israel is trading with both Egypt and Jordan

providing both with much needed income and jobs. Israeli tourists are visiting Cairo, the Sinai and various sites in Jordan providing income and jobs for both countries. There will be no war aid or no aid.

[Hippo_Tron]

81. That would be the trade leads to peace argument

And that's not a theory I tend not to subscribe to. I do, however, subscribe to the theory that leaders like to stay in power. And if Mubarak thinks his power is threatened, I doubt he will hesitate to start shit with Israel in an attempt to consolidate his power and get his people to rally around the flag.

[Malikshah]

51. Key point wrong there-- it's called international law-- don't like it? suck it and deal

Get your facts right before attempting to pontificate. Weiner is a douchebag about this and needs to get his head out of his ass and on more important matters.

[harkadog]

54. Exactly what international law is being broken?

Waiting.

[izzybeans]

78. Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention

Google helps.

[harkadog]

82. But google didn't help you

Article 49 applies to occupied territories. Israel is not occupying any country. The Gaza and the West Bank are part of Israel. Those issues were settled when Egypt an Jordan signed pace treaties with Israel. You are welcome to come up with something else.

[izzybeans]

83. I see you keep confusing E. Jerusalem as a part of Israel. But alas Gaza isn't part of Israel

under any regime of international law. A few Dick Cheney types in Israel play semantics with the status of the Palestinian Territories but their opinions are irrelevant concerning their violation of international law, the Oslo Peace Accords, etc. The next question you'll ask is "if its not part of Israel then what country is it apart of?" Which is an odd little trope and one of Israel's making. Deny Palestinian status, claim their territory as your own, etc. all of which are clear violations of Article 49 and doubly so whenever settlements expand. It's the same violation of human rights that we did here to Natives that we placed on reservations. "But they aren't real countries" never mind we forced them there and now want more.

Sorry dude but you can't spin your way out of it. You are in a box of your own making.

If google doesn't help, maybe a logic class and a deep reading of the Geneva Convention. You can't force people to move from any sovereign territory and claim it as your own.

[harkadog]

84. The Palestinians are not a separate country from Israel.

Any claims to the territory by Egypt or Jordan went out the window when they signed pace treaties. A fact you like to ignore. BTW who, besides you, says international law has been violated? Who said and when? Why haven't they done anything about it? No Palestinians were placed anywhere. The Arab states told them to flee when Israel was created in 1948. They did thinking the Arab armies would crush Israel and that would be the end of it. Israel destroyed them and the Palestinians stayed where they were, listening to each new generation of Arab leaders feed them BS on how they were going to destroy Israel. Unfortunately for them and you it hasn't worked out that way.

[Cha]

18. Weiner..get a grip.

Israel was in the wrong..

So Weiner is adding his voice to the rwingers complaints?

[harkadog]

23. So if someone stands up for Israel that makes them a RWer?

You get a grip.

[Cha]

31. I didn't say that..you

get a fucking grip.

[harkadog]

37. No you just used it as a straw man to attack.

But when you don't have facts or logic on your side you do what you have to do.

[Cha]

42. I did no such thing..you're just reading shit into it.

I know Weiner's no rw wing hack.

[Pirate Smile]

19. Quote For The Day

Quote For The Day
16 Mar 2010 12:10 pm

"Here we have a major split between the U.S. and Israel, with key American military and political leaders explaining ... that Israeli actions are directly harming U.S. interests and jeopardizing American lives. And what is the reflexive, unambiguous response of virtually every American Israel-centric neocon? To side with Israel over the U.S. AIPAC, the ADL, Elliott Abrams, AIPAC-loyal Democrats in the House, Marty Peretz, Commentary, etc. etc. all quickly castigated the U.S. Government and defended Israel, notwithstanding the dangers to Americans posed by Israeli conduct and the massive price paid by the U.S. in so many ways for this relationship (by contrast, J Street called the administration's anger towards Israel both "understandable and appropriate").

There's nothing wrong with taking Israel's side per se -- one is and should be free to criticize one's own government in its foreign policy -- but incidents like this make it increasingly futile to try to suppress what is glaringly visible: that (as is true for numerous groups in the U.S.) a significant segment of the neoconservative Right (which includes some evangelical Christians and some American Jews) are guided in their political advocacy by their emotional, religious, and cultural attachment to another country, and want U.S. policy shaped to advance that devotion.

On a related note: there has been a long-standing effort to equate those who make this observation with anti-Israel hatred or even anti-Semitism. Two widely-cited reports did exactly that with regard to me recently: this pseudo-scholarly report from the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs and this post on the blog of the American Jewish Committee, both of which hurl all sorts of ugly though trite accusations at me for daring to suggest that some American Jews are guided in their political advocacy by allegiance to Israel. I'll just note that the author of both "reports" is someone named Adam Levick, who -- with extreme, unintended irony -- lists this as his biography on his Twitter account:


I'm an American who just made Aliyah (moved to Israel), and love America and my new country,"

- Glenn Greenwald.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/03/here-we-have-a-major-split-between-theus-and-israel-with-key--american-military-and-political-leaders-explaining-that.html#more

[ShortnFiery]

20. "War is Peace" when we cite Andrew Sullivan as anything close to the MODERATING voice of reason.

:crazy: :(

[Jennicut]

21. Actually he was quoting Glenn Greenwald's article.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/03/15/israel/index.html

[ShortnFiery]

24. Yes, It's LAZY journalism on Sullivan's part. I have little to no respect for this individual.

Glenn Greenwald? No more respect for than than any average "John Q. Citizen," American, agnostic.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluenorthwest]

34. Except that he says 'some' not many and also includes the

Christianists who do the same. You do not do so. You are not quoting Greenwald, you are making your own statement.

[Jennicut]

35. Okay, some. But there is enough to have a huge influence in politics.

Exactly why nothing will change in regards to Israel. And I mentioned those that are aligned with these types, which inludes the RW Christians.

[DrToast]

28. A sovereign nation....that relies on billions of aid from the US

[harkadog]

30. As does Egypt and Jordan.

How come no one complains about their refusal to lift a finger in the peace process?

[DrToast]

33. Because they're not the ones building settlements?

Just a wild guess.

[harkadog]

36. They are the ones fighting the peace process

They continue to demand the 'the right of return' for Palestinians who weren't even born in 1948 and they refuse to allow any Palestinians to settle in their countries. The right of return will never be implemented and the Palestinians will continue in their sorry state until the end of time if they and the Arab states continue to insist on it.

[Pirate Smile]

44. Nevermind

[Malikshah]

52. You really do live in a world of crazy. Stop hating humanity and deal with

reality for a while. You are being counter productive with all these lies.

[harkadog]

53. Educate us about "all these lies"

Instead of just name calling. Come on, you're up to it. Tell us.

[Malikshah]

56. The old stand by ruse. How tiresomely predictable.

Bldg settlements on occupied territory is not sanctioned by international bodies. Israel does it any way. Get over it.
Stop obfuscating by trying to direct attention to Egypt, Jordan, etc. False equivalencies do not a sane argument make. It is clear to the most simple of folk that it is a false equivalency to compare the two situations, but you do so any way in some strange hope that people will see past your falsehoods.

Read the history. Bow you head in shame for attempting to discuss the issue online. Come back with information.

If you don't like names, stop lying and detracting from serious fact-based discussion.

[harkadog]

57. It is Israeli land

It does not belong to "international bodies". Where is it "not sanctioned". You just make statements and expect people to believe lies. Have you even been to any of these countries? I have been to all 3 several times now. So I have seen what is going on and don't have to believe BS that you put on the board.

[Malikshah]

59. What you believe or not believe is immaterial. It is clear that you simply do not know the details

or history. The other old stand by "I've been there" claim means absolutely nothing in light of your flagrant disregard for history, facts, current reality.

[harkadog]

60. I have asked you to educate us in several posts now

So far nothing but name calling and silence.

[Malikshah]

64. Correction: You have used the same tired tactic in many posts now.

Not going to play your game. You have provide a litany of outright falsehoods and have been called on it.

This particular internet tactic is well-known and viewed quite dimly by educated people. Try to remember that next time. :)

[harkadog]

76. Your non response and name calling is an internet tactic

that is also well known. If you say I'm am putting forward falsehoods them tell us what they are and why they are false. You have not done that in any of your pouts.

[amborin]

85. Jordan just rescinded Jordanian citizenship for many, many Palestinian citizens in Jordan n/t

[MadBadger]

38. As an American Jew, I wish more American Jews would recognize that Isreal isnt infallible

[Skidmore]

70. Yes, and as an American, I'd like to see it not be treated like

the 51st state.

[jgraz]

46. Very disappointing.

Weiner's smart enough to know the real issues. He's clearly pandering to his constituency.

[tranche]

55. I wish Weiner would stop wagging his finger.

I don't think he needs to be talking down to the White House like that.

[depakid]

61. Talk is cheap- pulling funding on the other hand is more likely to induce action

[Pirate Smile]

62. Both branches of Congress could probably pass the funding by measures large

enough to overturn a Presidential veto. Congress undermines the President's ability to do much to deal with Israel. I wish it wasn't true but think it pretty clearly is true.

[leftynyc]

65. You think this Congress

would pass a measure (a veto proof measure no less) taking funding away from Israel? How many times does the recent Gallup poll showing American support for Israel has GONE UP need to be posted before it gets through? If you think this board is indicative of American sentiment, you're dreaming.

[Pirate Smile]

66. I was saying the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you write. Congress would fund Israel, not cut funding, by

a veto proof margin.

Get off your friggin high horse. Israel's refusing to engage in the peace process and pushing settlements does help fuel the people killing our troops just like Petraeus said. Israel currently has a RW government which is leaning toward the most radical RW parties that Bibi had to join with to form a government. They have no interest in peace. That is working against US interests in the world but we have to just suck it up and take it. Don't expect us to like it. They also seem to have some huge problems with the President based on his name, race, his Cairo speech, etc. They are making themselves look like shit no matter what you say.

[leftynyc]

67. LOL - you're frothing

If dealing with reality makes me on a high horse, so be it. I don't like Bibi any more than you do but I'm speaking of the reality of having our government do anything like cutting off funding - it's not going to happen. And for every report that says that the Israeli position hurts our troops there will be a counter argument that it wasn't Israeli's that hit us on 9/11, it wasn't Israeli's that blew up the London subway or the Spanish trains. This is a black and white world, people take sides and they're not going to decide to side against Israel. Deal with it.

[Pirate Smile]

68. I'm obviously perfectly aware of that reality since I'm the one who pointed it out. I dont even know

why you brought up wacko conspiracy theories against Israel. Do you think that is comparable to what Petraeus said? I'm in reality, not the conspiracies. I said there is no way any funding will get changed. Israel's fighting against the peace process sucks. It works against US interests.

[leftynyc]

69. You misunderstand what I wrote

(as I initially misunderstood you). I wasn't speaking about conspriacy theories (that Israel was involved in any of those incidents). My point was that with they way there is no gray area in any argument these days (I blame bush and his moronic with us or against us shit), people simply aren't going to take the sides of the people perceived responsible for most of the terrorist incidents (the same way all Israeli's are getting tarred with bibi's crap, all Muslims get tarred with terrorism). That's the reality I'm speaking of. All the calls for "cutting off funding" are a waste of breath and space.

[Pirate Smile]

71. I think we actually agree but were just focused on different points.

Obama isn't going to try to cut off funding or anything like that which would never happen and just make him look weak. He wouldn't do it because it would damage him politically.

I'm afraid my view of Israel has darkened somewhat lately. I was completely in the "Bibi is Israel's Bush" and he doesn't represent all of the people just like Bush didn't. The absolutely horrible view the Israeli public has of President Obama makes me more skeptical of them. I know they are used to getting a lot of love from US Presidents and Obama was instead focused on changing the view that the Muslim world had of the US post Bush. Israel has had a very negative reaction to that although I'm sure most understand it logically. I do think his name and color are also part of it.

It is actually just really sad that when we finally have a President who wanted to work on the peace process from the first year on, not the last, that Bibi is Prime Minister when Kadima actually got more votes. He had to go with some real RW wacko's to form a government.

Progress would be nice but the current government there doesn't want it. It's too bad because Bibi could do a "Nixon goes to China" thing and be a peacemaker but his coalition wont allow it (and he certainly doesn't seem to want it). I also really do not like them continually f#$king over Obama and doing what they can to undermine him. It pisses me off. I'd feel the same way about any ally doing that crap.

As usual with close friends and allies, it's complicated. We expect more from them then we do others. :)

[leftynyc]

72. Unfortunately, the only

American TV they see in Israel is fox news who, almost on a daily basis, claim that President Obama hates Israel. It doesn't help when there is virtually nothing from the White House that puts the onus for peace on anybody but Israel.

Sharon tried what you are suggesting (Nixon/China) - but then he had the stroke and it was never even mentioned again. If Pres Obama manages to sound evenhanded (which both sides will complain about), he wont get anything accomplished. I was very hopeful having Hillary as SOS as she's one tough broad (I'm a NYer, that's high praise) but also viewed as a friend to Israel (as is Joe Biden). I really do believe that Bibi was blindsided by this announcement because he would rather chew glass than have to apologize (which he has done). I don't see any leadership at all from the Palestinians - nobody I think can rally public opinion and hammer out an agreement that would stand.

Yes, it is complicated and maybe we do expect more from our friends but that's the way it is. I'm hoping things look more hopeful behind the scenes (there's ALWAYS something happening behind the scenes) because this situation helps nobody.

Sorry we were speaking past eachother up there (hot topic). Peace.

[Cali_Democrat]

77. Israel is an ally?

What exactly do they do for us besides siphon billions from our treasury and make us hated in the Arab World? It seems like a pretty one-sided relationship if you ask me.

FUCK THEM.