Dennis Kucinich speaks for me

[scheming daemons]

I always wanted to start one of these threads.

Finally have a good reason to.



Very nice to see that he decided to actually help people instead of just talking about helping people.



You're on the right side of history, Dennis. Welcome aboard.

[ShortnFiery]

1. I trust no politician fully. Not even Dennis Kucinich, a man who I admire.

Nobody speaks for me.
I speak form myself.

Kucinich folded due to strategy. He's not fond of this bill in any way, shape or form.

I wish he would not have sucummbed to coercion from the Obama Administration, but I understand why he did back down.

[phleshdef]

4. Where is your fucking proof that anyone was coerced into anything?

Stop spreading the batshit crazy lies.`

[ShortnFiery]

13. Oh come on? What we saw on the idiot tube was enough. It's was TACKY.

and the kind of tactics I'd expect of the GOP.

But anything for OUR SIDE. When we do it, it's cool. :eyes:

[mkultra]

15. im sure it was a principled flip flop

[NJmaverick]

17. What side are you on? Seeing how Dems and liberals both support passing this bill

what side is it that you are on?

[phleshdef]

22. Either produce the proof or stop spreading what is otherwise considered a blatant lie.

[gateley]

6. As much as it sucks, it will still afford 30 million people the chance to get

coverage. That's what did it for me (like I had a vote or something :eyes:). I'm not one of them, but why hold them hostage until I get what I want? I'm hopeful we're on the way.

[ShortnFiery]

10. That's what you don't fully copy. It doesn't matter if you have insurance if you can NOT

afford the skyrocketing PREMIUMS. The abject poor will be cared for as will the the super-rich.

Those of us in the working classes will have to DECLARE BANKRUPTCY if/when we suffer a major illness or get into a car accident. BANKRUPT!

It's merely more GIFTING the upper 1% with middle class tax monies.

We'll all be indebted servants if this continues. :(

[phleshdef]

24. This bill gives the government the power to control premiums. Thats true whether you want to admit..

... it or not.

[gateley]

31. I was looking at a comparison between the House/Senate/POTUS bills and

they all provide a subsidy to help with premiums. They seemed reasonable, but who knows what will finally be signed into law?

I'm not going to freak out UNTIL I know for sure what I'm up against. And I'll say this, nothing could be worse for me than it is now (no job, no insurance, no hope), so I've got nothing to lose. I can't believe I'm the only person in this situation.

[NorthCarolina]

36. The hardest hit will be the 50 to 65 crowd, particularly if they have

a pre-existing condition like say...high blood pressure or elevated cholesterol levels. They will pay three times the highest allowable rate. Many in that group will not be able to afford the premiums, yet will make above the threshold for assistance. You watch, it will happen. They will default to paying the fine for no coverage because that will be what they can afford.

[Hippo_Tron]

7. How do you figure they coerced him?

Not that I think you are necessarily wrong because the two ways you get people to change their votes are through bribe or coercion (carrots or sticks). I think they used carrots, but you seem to think they used sticks. What's your theory?

[ShortnFiery]

14. How about the Klassy personal pressure and the announcement that

monies would be doled out to those who supported the President's HRC initiatives?

He was coerced but, in essence, is only supporting this bill strategically so it can be improved.

But we all know, deep down, like NAFTA, it will NOT be improved upon. Don't we?

[Hippo_Tron]

19. You assume he needs money, which is doubtful

There are two big ways that the White House as the controllers of the national party machinery can coerce members of congress.

1) Threaten to support a primary challenger (incredibly rare especially for Democrats)

2) Threaten to not provide financial support in the general election

Dennis could not possibly susceptible to either of these because it's too late to primary him and he's safe in his district in the general election. Maybe they threatened to primary him next cycle but I would imagine Dennis is smart enough to know that isn't credible because the President is going to be too busy worrying about re-election to worry about a grudge from the year before.

IMO he switched his vote because he was given some sort of promise about single payer or a public option down the road. I'm sure the White House wouldn't have minded using cocercion, but they don't have the sticks to do it in this case.

[gateley]

2. This is the bottom line for me:

But he acknowledged this morning that his choice now is to either vote "no" on principle, and thereby possibly block the biggest (though imperfect) advance in health coverage in decades, or compromise for the good of the estimated 30 million more Americans who could gain insurance.

[Oregone]

3. Are you an objective judge of "the right side of history"?

Was Ted Kennedy on the wrong side of history?

[TheWraith]

9. Ted Kennedy supported healthcare reform. nt

[DrToast]

11. Hell, he wrote part of it!

[Oregone]

18. Doubt it

Im not sure how much real writing Kennedy accomplished in the last moments of his life

[IndianaGreen]

40. Kennedy wrote part of the HELP bill, not the crappy Baucus bill

We are getting the crappy Baucus bill, coupled with kickbacks and bribes.

[Oregone]

16. In the 70s Kennedy did not fold to Nixon's NHIPA (mandated & subsidized private insurance)

Instead, he introduced a single-payer bill, and eventually attempted to meet Nixon in the middle with the Kennedy-Mills compromise bill (he was not met there). Kennedy's bill was as viable as Nixon's, but some Congressmen on the left and labor thought it was not liberal enough.

Kennedy did not fully capitulate and accept subsidized and mandated private insurance (the great grand-daddy of today's bill). Was Kennedy on the wrong side of history, or did he do what a liberal party is expected to do (and compromised accordingly at that)?

BTW, not all "reform" is equal.

[Hippo_Tron]

20. 2010 isn't the 1970's

And Ted Kennedy having served in both eras understood full well how much more conservative this country became after Reagan.

[Oregone]

23. But sound policy is sound policy

Just because the Democrats are now ideologically close to the Republicans of the 1970s, it doesn't mean everything they do is automatically good or in the interests of the people. In fact, it really means the opposite.

[Hippo_Tron]

25. Sound policy is merely an idea if it can't pass congress

The congress and the electorate are more conservative than they were in the 70's and Kennedy knew that full well. He would have accepted this bill because it is the best we can get right now.

[Oregone]

26. And thats your guess. Of course, we know what he did in real life

Thanks to history, after all.

[Hippo_Tron]

28. His wife said he would've voted for the bill

And while alive he gave no indication that the lack of a public option would be a deal breaker.

You still obviously have no grasp of the fact that the way Ted Kennedy pursued health care in the 1970's was drastically different than the way he did in 2009.

[Oregone]

30. He said, She said

We *know* that when faced with subsidized and mandated private insurance: he oppossed it vehemetly and offered up single payer. He then even compromised with a payroll funded universal health coverage.

Thats what he *did*.

I don't care how far the party has drifted to the right. Policy is policy. If he was on the right side of history then for not completely capitulating, its hard to *objectively* state Kucinich is on the right side for giving in.

Kennedy said that the idea was "a partnership between the administration and the private health insurance industry. For the private industry, the administration plan offers a windfall of billions of dollars annually. The windfall is not entirely a surplus, since elements of Administration's proposal appear to have originated in the insurance industry itself"

Its a world of contradiction you people live in.

[Hippo_Tron]

32. I'm not arguing that Kennedy would've voted yes = Dennis was right to vote yes

I'm arguing that the idea that Kennedy would've voted no is absurd.

[Oregone]

35. Doh!

"I'm arguing that the idea that Kennedy would've voted no is absurd."

And one could argue that if Kennedy was at his full capacity, the current bill would exist in an entirely different form.

Its all theory. And its not exactly where I was going.

I simply asked originally what made the OP an objective jude of the "right side of history", beign that we live in the present and they do seem to have a reasonable subjective bias.

And further, why a past actual historical vote against this model isn't considered being the "wrong side of history".

All this talk is really absurd right now, any way you cut it.

[bluestateguy]

5. I too am pleased that he did the right thing

and he will have my support in the continuing fight to bring about a public option and ultimately, single payer.

[gateley]

8. Yes - I feel this will get the momentum going in the 'right' direction. nt

[elocs]

12. So is DK running for president or does this OP have something to do with the presidency?

So why this particular forum?

It's nice he speaks for you, but DK doesn't speak for me.

[NorthCarolina]

33. Shouldn't you be busy writing another DLC sponsored anti-DK slander post? eom

[elocs]

38. So, what does asking why a post about DK belongs in the Presidency forum have to do with the DLC?

Off your meds today? :shrug:

[Sebastian Doyle]

41. Well that's a silly question

Considering members of the DLC's Message Discipline LLC have been spamming the shit out of this forum (and others) with Kucinich bashing threads for the last week. And NOW they all claim to love him. :eyes:

[Orsino]

21. Much more so than, say, the evolving HCR bill does.

I'm glad DK had a part in it, however small.

[Forkboy]

27. Oh Christ. You'll be pissing on him again in a week.

:eyes:

[JVS]

34. Yeah, there seems to be a lot of "Let me be the first to pull out my dagger and pat Denis' back"

going on.

[Dinger]

39. No Shit

The hypocrisy here is stunning.

[scheming daemons]

42. not if he keeps making good decisions....

[Forkboy]

44. And we know he'll make one next week that will bring out the pissing.

What, do you think DK became a centrist overnight?

[Tailormyst]

29. No politician speaks for me

But I do agree with DK most of the time and hate seeing him torn down for being "too left".

[Cha]

37. Dennis has come around and what's not to

like from those who wanted to see this HRC passed?

[martymar64]

43. Bullshit, you've always hated him because he's a liberal

You conservatives are all the same. Flay him until he is bloody then give insincere praise when he finally surrenders to your beatings.

Now the law of the land will be "Buy crappy expensive useless insurance policies or we'll sic the IRS on you!"

Some change.