At best, I would consider the current HCR bill to be a stop gap measure.

[Cleobulus]

Viewed this way, I find it slightly more acceptable than thinking of it as a solution for anything, its a measure to fill a slight gap between the status quo and either a robust public option or single-payer. Thinking of it that way, we have until 2014-2016 to try to implement true health care reform. Thinking of it on this level, I can support this bill.

[sandnsea]

1. Well hallelujah

That's what most of us have been saying for a year now. We'll have to try this, get everybody accustomed to having health care (and they will have health care), and then logically go to single payer when this proves too expensive. That's just the way this country is.

[Cleobulus]

3. No, see this is where we differ, first off, I still will be without health care...

so what, I can take 4 more years of pain, what I want is to implement a replacement for this plan BEFORE it kicks in. Let the stuff that goes into affect immediately go into affect immediately, in between now and when this bill is supposed to kick in, work on getting a public option or single payer implemented before the mandates and all the other bad shit kicks in.

[griffi94]

6. i'm afraid you're going to be disappointed

if you expect any kind of real fix. if the democrats can't get a real reform bill in place
with solid majorities what are the chances they'll be able to fix anything after the mid terms
when they lose seats in both houses.
the sad fact is this is going to be all we get. the fix it later chorus seems to think the
insurance lobby is going to fold their tent and go home.

[Cleobulus]

7. I'm just trying to be practical, the bill is most likely going to pass...

so we have to find a way to scrap it and replace it with something better. My only other option, to get health care, would be to leave the country.

[griffi94]

8. i understand you're trying to see the glass

as half full. look at all the shit that's been passed that was going to be fixed later.
like the patriot act, that didn't get fixed it just got re-upped, but at least the wars ended, oh wait no they didn't. i hate to be a bummer but this administrations word hasn't meant very much so far. obama didn't campaign on a public option oh wait yes he did, but he said he didn't.

[Cleobulus]

9. Its no so much as seeing the glass as half full rather than seeing...

the glass itself and wanting to break it and use it as a weapon.

[Ken Burch]

4. There'd be a chance to get people accustomed to health care if this bill actually PROVIDED it.

A mandatory insurance bill isn't change and isn't progressive.

[dkf]

2. Hawaii had more significant reform than this eons ago.

It's kind of sad that this is the best we can do in a crisis situation even.

[Cleobulus]

5. No kidding, I find the bill horrendious...

What we should do is concentrate on replacing it before most of its provisions kick in, that's the "stop gap" I'm talking about. Push for Single Payer or a strong Public Option, to be implemented by 2014 or so. Gives us 4 years, that should be doable.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[h9socialist]

11. Well, it's a start . . .

Did you think there would be no more struggle after this process? Karl Marx noted that capitalism's main advance was that it gave the worker's more freedom to struggle as compared to earlier systems. Even if we'd gotten single payer, there'd be plenty more struggle ahead. If this bill passes it keeps the hope of further advances within realistic grasp. If the bill goes down, it'll be another 20 years before politicians get the stomach for this fight. Right now, winning is not as great as we wished for. But losing is still an absolute catastrophe.