Does a guy who bashes "the left" on Fox News DESERVE our party's nomination in 2012?

[Ken Burch]

If we're supposed to be loyal to him, isn't he equally obligated to be loyal to us, at least when he's speaking on an enemy newscast?

Isn't it only supposed to be the OTHER party that talks trash about "the left"?

[Tiggeroshii]

1. Are you kidding me?

How is saying that certain things "the left" proposed are being left out of the bill because he didnt think it was necessary for the system, "bashing the left?"

[rpannier]

5. Actually what he said was

From the transcript:

we can fix this in a way that is sensible, that is centrist. I have rejected a whole bunch of provisions that the left wanted that are — you know, they were very adamant about because I thought it would be too disruptive to the system.

Translation:
The ideas from the left are not sensible
We must tack to the center -- Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman
The left is disruptive

There's nothing quoted in the transcript that says: certain things "the left" proposed are being left out of the bill because he didn't think it was necessary for the system

[SemiCharmedQuark]

8. He has said this same thing before. IOW, he doesn't think going to single payer would be feasible

because healthcare is a big part of our economy.

That is not "bashing". It is something that I completely disagree with, but it is not "bashing".

[rpannier]

15. You say Tomato

Someone else says To-mah-to

In the end it's all in how someone reads the comment

In a highly charged environment as this has needlessly become, he should pick his phrases more carefully

The way he uses sensible can suggest that the left is not being so

[SemiCharmedQuark]

18. True.

[rpannier]

20. Thank You

This conversation is ending a positive note
We both agree (I think) it's all in how the person chooses to interpret what was said.

I have just finished having the dumbest argument with someone who thinks they are Karnak The Great or something

And it's making me very tired and irritated

You have a nice day (or evening depending on where you are)

Take care


:toast: :hi: :fistbump:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

21. It's 2 am here in Chicago. I'm studying parasitology.

Sorta.

Thank you for a nice, civil conversation. We certainly do agree.

Have a nice day :)

[pundaint]

154. Is it needless because it is clear to all that he does not fight for the Democratic Platform

or needless because Americans must accept liars as their leaders or needless
because the left doesn't count here either. Like that poll yesterday that lasted at least 520 votes - but only until it tipped against the president, and was gone.

[truedelphi]

22. In any case it will be an absolutely freezing day in hell before I

ever consider voting for him again.

I don't like his appointments. I don't like his policies. And his failure to make strong statements about the need for Single Payer Universal HC when he himself said that he KNEW it was the best and most logical solution to the HC crisis - when he turned his back on his own logic, he lost me.

And of course, the media shares a lot of blame. When Cronkite and Murrow were around, they would have parsed the hell out of the following from Obama: "Well, Single Payer Universal HC is the best solution -- if there is no system already up and running, but because there is, then we have to preserve that system, in a way that is uniquely American." In other words, we won't use a logical solution, we will use a sytsem that includes the system that we already have while we aim for reform.

But how is it possible to "reform" a system if you include that broken system inside it?

What a bunch of gibberish he speaks. He speaks it elegantly, but it is still gibberish.

And our media only blathers on about things like Tiger Woods.

[ima_sinnic]

36. +1000 what you said (nt)

[ShortnFiery]

41. Well put.

:-) :hi:

[tbyg52]

79. Yep. nt

[emilyg]

91. +1

[kestrel91316]

111. Well then, that means you want a Republican back in the WH. Thanks for nothing.

[truedelphi]

118. We have a Republican in the WH.

We Progressives who elected this man are denounced by him on FOX TV. We are offered up expansion of an expensive war in Afghanistan that will further bring this nation to its knees economically. We are kept silent over a long summer while the Rahm brothers carefully craft the HC "Reform" Bill to the advantage of the Big Insurers.

Monsanto clones occupy high positions. Bernanke/Geithner give away Fourteen Trillion bucks. Some TARP monies get paid back, but only because of special tax breaks that allow the Banksters to look good in the headlines.

We have an extra special super duper RECOVERY while many are jobless, and/or homeless.

And on and on.

What we don't have is a neo- Nazi, snarling and inarticulate Republican in the WH. We have the kinder, gentler, more pleasant version of that. (While the bombs fall on civilians and the eight million new foreclosures go forward.)

But according to the Pew Survey on Voters, some forty percent of the voter sin this nation are no longer totally loyal to one party or another.

Forty percent of us want someone who is honest and will do the right thing.

[treestar]

120. Oh for F's sake!

Puhllllllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssse.

Come on!

There are REAL Republicans in the world! Have you forgotten them? Remember the 48% of the population that voted for Captain Combover and Caribou Barbie?

[truedelphi]

126. Those people are the neo-Nazis I was referring to.

They have as much relationship to Dwight Eisenhower or Richard Nixon as
cheese has to acorns.

Eisenhower would not support the current war in Afghanistan. He also would be appalled by Obama holding on to the Patriot Act. Nixon would not support the Bernanke/Geithner giveaways.

Rachel Carson is spinning in her grave, when she hears that Obama's Monsanto buddies are ripping up the organic farmers' crops as Monsanto takes apart the middle inocmed farm lands. (Coming soon: GMO beets, cauliflowe r and carrots. What other foods will join wheat, corn and rice as poisons to our systems?)

I suppose we frogs in the pot can applaud that the water is only being pushed to temperatures two or three degrees higher each year, while the neo Nazis woul demand we live with ten degree changes.

But I am tired of "Bad Cop, Good Cop," democracy. I want my nation out of the police station.

[Ken Burch]

136. IT was 46%. And that was of the voters...not of the population

If we'd had direct presidential elections, like an actual democracy does, it would have been a very different story.

[spoony]

132. The question is, will we ever, ever get that person.

Judging by the ability of a well-funded campaign to affect emotions and thoughts, I am not optimistic.

[truedelphi]

27. One other thing about this man

I am old enough to remember Nixon. And when I see and hear the way that Obama uses his voice's cadence, when he makes his overly emphatic points, when he says "Now Look..." it all is so Nixonian I want to barf.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[truedelphi]

115. Black people? What does this have to do with Black people?

I am from Chicago. I was fighting for segregation way back before many here were out of diapers.

In my late teens, I probably lost a job due to the fact that my friends were black and I choose to sit with them at their cafeteria table rather than with the "white and approved" crowd that I was "supposed" to sit with.

This is like being told I am anti-Semitic because I don't like the fact that thirteen times as many Palestinians die for every Jewish person during the conflicts there. (I am, BTW, half Jewish.)

Also, Obama's approval of the Paulson, Bernanke, Geithner policies has crippled the lower incomed and the barely middle incomed people most of all. And many of those people happen to be black.

I voted for Obama in large part because never in a million years did I believe that he and Michelle would sell out their own. But there is no way that those on the edge are ever going to recover from the Fourteen Trillion bucks that Obama's Administration pretends it doesn't see going from Main Street to The Big Banks and the Upper Circle of the Elite.

Things will be even worse in five or six years when none of the food in this nation is edible because of Obama's approval of Monsanto GMO. Michelle may be all "I love organics" but so many of her husband's appointments are Monsanto/Novartis/-related that I can barely think straight when realizing how sold out our farmers are.

[Oregone]

30. Thats a disgusting quote. It really is.

No wonder socialism was rejected in favor of the expensive corrupt private industry.

[FrenchieCat]

33. Folks here dogs this President out every day,

and use words 500 times as bad as what you perceive as an insult.

He told the truth didn't he? The Left wanted things,
and he didn't include them, although we wanted them.

The man's been called a failure by so many,
but don't let him have anything to say....
cause he should be licking your shoe, I guess.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluenorthwest]

53. Frenchie, you defended the outright hate speech of McClurkin

As an acceptable political device, so slandering your own supporters is a thing you have long agreed is fine to do if Obama does it. You said hate preachers proved his 'bona fides' to some group that is intolerant.
So the President and his good friends stand against my rights, Frenchie, against equality. They say they are 'sanctified' and others are 'cursed by God'.
They discriminate against us, like bigots do. Actual legal discrimination. So, oh, poor Barack, getting back what he put out, reaping what he sewed.
Let me know when someone says he or his people should not have rights equal to others, then we can talk. Until then, nothing said about him comes close to the slander he has put forth, which you uphold and praise.

[Jakes Progress]

153. One of the facts of life here on DU,

is that if Obama bombed Iran and Israel, put Wal Mart in charge of the Education Dept., drilled for oil in Central Park, outlawed all unions, and divorced Michelle to marry Sarah, a few here would still defend those actions and condemn DUers who discussed them. It's sort of a white noise background hiss that you get used to and disregard.

[proud2BlibKansan]

190. +1

[ChiciB1]

194. JAKES... That Was Beautiful! But You Forgot One Thing...

Lapping up all the "pretty speeches" makes the crap so palatable!

[tekisui]

68. No one here is the President. No one here was voted

for by the left.

[truedelphi]

116. Thanks for your sane response, tekisu

[truedelphi]

99. Huh?

The argument put forth by the OP is that Obama insulted his base.

We have the right to feel slighted. We have the right to feel insulted.

And looking at the Big Four: 1)his policies, 2) his appointments, 3) his actions, and 4) now his words, we Progressives certainly can affirm that we have had the wool pulled off our eyes. He may have run as a Progressive (See his October 2008 YouTubes when he fer sure speaks the progressive talking points), but once in office, the only pledges (with the exception of stem cells) that he honors are those pledges made to the Big Corporate Interests.

Once he took office, this man saw us as so much offal to be scraped from his shoes, while he goes and talks to Faux about how we Progressives are the problem.

[ieoeja]

81. While in the non-DU world, it is translated as...

Centrist = bipartisan, i.e. not forcing your views on another
Disruptive = 100s of thousands of jobs in the health insurance industry lost
Sensible = doing the first and not the second

[vaberella]

96. That's crap and you know it.

It's probably because most of the demands from the "left" or I would assume the far liberal group of the Dem party won't get a bill past. Bluedogs would shut it down fast. You know it as well as I do and anyone who knows the democratic process in washington knows it very well. You're being intentionally obtuse and misleading with your analyses.

[Tiggeroshii]

138. Still not seeing how it's bashing anybody

It's just saying he didn't agree that all those proposals were necessary right now. And I agree with him. Am I left basher too?

[TicketyBoo]

139. You think that

Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman are the center?

Oh, that's hilarious! :rofl:

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JI7]

2. whoever gets the most votes in the Primary deserves the nomination

[Ken Burch]

11. Whoever gets the most delegates(which no longer has anything to do with popular votes

due the way the party has rigged the nominating process to keep the people out in the cold since the 70's)will end up BEING the nominee.

I don't dispute that.

But does such a person DESERVE it if he or she treats the party's base as the enemy(which is what Obama's Fox News slams on the left were doing)?

Is there any good reason for us to have a nominee that acts as if she or he is ABOVE the party and is somehow doing the party a favor by deigning to allow its insiders to choose her or him as the nominee?

We need the 1972 delegate selection rules back. Slowly leeching the democracy out of the party has done nothing but make things worse.

[JI7]

17. i don't view him as treating me as the enemy, speak for yourself

you certainly don't speak for liberals like myself who support Obama.

[davidpdx]

50. Rigged?

Wow, so my vote didn't count? Talk about jaded.

[HughMoran]

58. Your fucking arguments are rigged

You've jumped the fucking shark.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dionysus]

61. .

:rofl:

[Ken Burch]

105. Bobby Kennedy wouldn't support the way the rank-and-file have been taken out of the process either

Had he lived, Bobby would have backed the 1972 nominating rules. Those rules didn't cause our loss in '72, Nixon's dirty tricks did. And Nixon had it rigged so he'd have taken 49 states against Scoop Jackson or Hubert Humphrey or Ed Muskie too.

Giving the insiders control is what gave us Mondale and Dukakis.

[DevonRex]

108. It gets more hilarious by the moment, doesn't it?

:rofl: at him.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ken Burch]

109. It would have been rigged if it was him OR if it was Hillary.

We were going to be forced to accept the corporate candidate. You know perfectly well that everything he's done since getting elected was a deliberate gesture of contempt towards the people who elected him.

Worse yet, he's discarded the Obama movement. He treated them like a one-night stand, getting what he wanted from them and then sending them on their way. It's this guy's fault if the young give up on politics again. Obama owed it to THEM not to go centrist.

Now the door is closed again, no one feels enthusiasm anymore, and the "pros" are laughing at us for letting ourselves get played.

Face it, this proves that none of us mattered to the party.

[LoZoccolo]

165. He'll win either way, so it doesn't matter. n/t

[saigon68]

35. He better eat the Lobster now

His one term will wend in Jan 2013.

The rest of his 1st term will be a real cluster fuck after Nov 2010

[DURHAM D]

110. Not really.

If the new speaker has an R behind his name Obama will be able to work with him quite comfortably. In fact - there will be less stress on the WH to get anything/something done.

[TicketyBoo]

140. Yes, his one term

will wend its way into a second, if we are lucky enough to get him.

I don't want Mitt Romney sitting in the Oval Office, thank you very much.

[LibDemAlways]

3. Is it possible to even imagine Bush going on

Olbermann to similarily bash the right? Not in a million years. Would never happen.

Illustrates the amount of respect Obama has for the people who worked their asses off to get him elected. And saying it on FAUX, IMO, makes it even more of an insult. Have no idea who Obama thinks is going to step up to the plate for him in 2012, but he sure as hell won't have the full support of the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

4. How is what Obama said "bashing"? I absolutley could imagine a RW politician saying

"I rejected many ideas from the right" in trying to make the case that whatever bill they are promoting is not crazy partisan.

[Ken Burch]

6. No RW president has ever gone on tv or ever WILL go on tv and treat his party's base as the enemy

or gloat about not doing what his base wanted(which was also what the majority of the country wanted).

There's no good reason for any Democratic president to ever do anything to give aid and comfort to the meme that politics in this country should only consist of "the right and the center".

[SemiCharmedQuark]

10. He wasn't gloating, he was explaining that it is not some communist plot to a bunch of RWers

It is a ridiculously centrist bill. I think it would have been better if he *had* pushed from the left on it. But he didn't and what we've got is a centrist bill. Calling it a centrist bill is not "bashing" anybody.

[Ken Burch]

12. He shouldn't even have BEEN on Fox

Why even bother with them?

Nobody who watches Fox votes for this party anyway, or ever will.

There's never a good reason to try to appease the enemy like that.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

13. Kucinich went on Fox. Was he appeasing the enemy?

[Ken Burch]

16. He wasn't there to ATTACK the left

There's a huge difference.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

19. Neither was Obama. He was there to talk about healthcare.

You took one line out of the interview and made a post about it.

[treestar]

122. It was not an attack

Chill out please.

[Ken Burch]

137. That's what you'd have said about Clinton's "Sistah Souljah" speech

"It's not an attack on blacks".

And when it came to a "Democratic" president signing Rush Limbaughs "Death To The Dispossesed" bill(I.E. "welfare reform)you'd have said "it's not an attack on the poor".

There would have been the same remarks about some of us "not knowing how the game was played" as somebody else put it in this thread.

[LibDemAlways]

29. Agreed. The typical FOX "News" viewer hates Obama.

No reason for him to be on there in the first place. But going into that vile liars' den and then using the platform to bash the ideas of your party's base is just low. So very disappointing.

[Lilyeye]

90. So I guess you feel the same about Kucinich being on Fox as well?

[Golden Raisin]

32. Bingo!

President Obama's agreeing to appear on Fox only lends them credibility and dignity they do not deserve.

[dionysus]

51. you're building the biggest mountain out of a goddamned molehill. you guys loathe obama so damned

much, you will make yourselves believe the most innocuous statement is somehow directed, personally at you, as an insult.

while most people think he went on fox news and kicked their ass, you've managed to find a way to be outraged. it's hillarious. he could tie his shoes and get you into a snit fer chrissakes. "he tied his RIGHT shoe first!! impeach!!1!!!"

[Bluenorthwest]

57. Stomp those feet and swear! Huff, puff!

Can not bear criticism of a President who opposes even basic human rights for minorities he despises. Obama is against equal rights for all. He favors discrimination under the law against some groups of people.
Simple statements. Now, continue stomping on the desk and frothing at the mouth.

[dionysus]

59. i think the one frothing is thou... now he despises you eh?

:rofl:

[Bluenorthwest]

63. He holds my people, not me, in religiously based contempt

which he has explained clearly. If you think treating minorities differently under the law is emoticon funny, that is your choice. But Obama states clearly that his religion teaches him to favor discrimination against some minorities.
Do you see the promotion of discrimination and bigotry to be funny? I don't.
Bigots are bigots. I don't find them funny. You seem to.
Enjoy the laugh.

[treestar]

123. lol, well said.

[spoony]

129. I don't take it as an insult, per se, but it was an admission of an insult

He couldn't possibly be clearer. He wouldn't accept what the left wanted because he didn't want to upset the system. THAT's the insult, as far as I'm concerned. And he admits it. That's not an "innocuous statement," that's a damning statement.

[HughMoran]

60. This is your latest fucking 'argument by proxy' to bash the President

You're not fooling anybody.

[Ken Burch]

80. I'm not trying to fool anybody

I'm honestly a loyal Democrat who doesn't want to see our party lose by giving up its principles.

You've got no reason to think anything else of me.

And it's not cool to start sounding like Bencheley.

[spoony]

130. Hey, stop fooling people with Obama's own words!

They know what he, like, meant. And stuff.

[Ken Burch]

134. Oh...you mean it's "who you gonna believe...me or your lying ears?" time?

Great.....

[JI7]

7. it's not and most of that interview was Obama telling off that asshole "reporter"

but the same bunch who always bash Obama on here must have been upset Obama did well in that interview and made the Fox guy look like an ass.

so now they are trying to turn that whole interview into something it wasn't.

[Ken Burch]

14. Nobody here would be upset with Obama doing well

But he never does well when he gets centrist. That path never ever works.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dionysus]

66. +1

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Ken Burch]

77. Not hatist-antidefeatist

1994 was caused by centrism. We all know that. Why repeat it?

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Number23]

24. The screaming and thrashing over this one comment is deranged

This seems like Dawn Johnsen v.2, the insanely ridiculous flak that Obama received here over the New York Health board's decision to distribute the H1N1 virus to Wall St. before anyone else, Obama bowing too low to the Japanese emperor, wearing clean clothes that aren't full of parasites and disease as proof of his "elitism" etc. in that it's another excuse for those who will never support or give this President credit for anything looking desperately about for something to scream about. Sweet Jesus, this mess has gotten old.

I wonder what Giordano, Cesca and a few others will have to say in response to this new idiocy. This is weak even for chronic Obama haters.

[the other one]

9. You would have to imagine it

Because it won't be happening in the real world. Have you been paying attention?

[truedelphi]

23. I think it has been explained to him that the voting machines are

Easily corrupted, and that should he please the Corporate Masters often enough, then they will see to it that it all works out.

Having electronic voting machinery means you never have to consider your base.

[treestar]

121. Like the Dixie Chick saying stuff in England made it worse?

Of course Bush would never admit the right did not get all it wanted in any bill. The right wing never admits to any realities.

[TicketyBoo]

141. Like Daniel

into the lions' den.

I have absolute respect for Obama going there and taking them on.

Of course Bush would be too cowardly to appear on MSNBC.

[elocs]

25. Very little that we get in life is based upon what we deserve.

I certainly would like to get some things I believe I deserve,
but I'm also very happy that I do not get other things that I likely deserve as well.

Obama will get the nomination.

[Drunken Irishman]

26. This thread if full of dumb...

And it starts at the top.

Seriously, I've got to wonder if some DUers are just fucking with us. I've been here a long time and never have I ever thought many on this forum were stupid - so I'm pretty sure this is all just a joke.

We're probably being played. To show how utterly idiotic an extreme can look. You know, like those websites that mock far-right religious Republicans (Landover Baptist, comes to mind).

haha

[Ken Burch]

28. This fron the guy who started the "I like my politicians the way I like my women" thread

:eyes:

[Drunken Irishman]

31. Yup. I have posted my share of dumb threads. You've probably set the record.

Which is a surprise, because I really don't think you're dumb. A big reason why I don't believe you when you act like this. Only an idiot would post some of the stuff you've posted lately and you're far from being an idiot.

So I feel you. ;)

Clever, but not because I think, unfortunately, some DUers actually buy your psychotic-like rants.

[stevenleser]

117. I've been wondering the same. Not altogether different from my wondering about Coulter

I think her whole schtick is just that, a moneymaking schtick and she doesnt believe any of it. She just knows it appeals to the knuckledragging right and makes her a lot of money.

What you have pointed out here seems very similar even if the underlying ideology is different.

[HughMoran]

55. Teh Stupid, if bruns!

There are people here that have jumped the shark and thrive off the negativity that they promote.

It's sickening. :puke:

[depakid]

34. No surprise- he proved his "centrism" by taking a swipe at teachers before the Chamber of Commerce!

and didn't begrudge banksters their bonuses to Bloomberg, while comparing them with baseball players!

No telling what will happen after a year or two of this- especially if the poll numbers keep dropping.

[quaker bill]

38. Thin skinned liberals - enough already

Look, you wanted revolutionary reform. You wanted to upset the whole apple cart and go with single payer. You wanted and even demanded that the system designed for massive insurance company profits be, dare I say it, disrupted.

Back in the 1960s and 1970s, we celebrated our disruptiveness. Disruption of a flawed system was the whole point.

Grow a bit of skin and own your disruptiveness. Wear it as a badge of honor. Take having your ideas being called disruptive as a compliment, because that is what you intend to do.

[Skidmore]

39. Plenty of "progressives" here trashing "the left" here too.

[Dinger]

40. Nope (nt)

[NatBurner]

42. this place gets nuttier and nuttier by the day

i hardly know what to make of DU anymore

[freddie mertz]

43. No "Deserves" our vote unless he or she EARNS it.

Right now, not doing well at all.

[JNelson6563]

44. Why don't you run Kucinich against him?

I swear the idiocy here gets worse by the day.

[karynnj]

45. All he was saying is that the bill rejected ideas from the left - ie it is

a centrist bill - something you very likely agree with.

Now, consider who he was talking to - the possible not completely ideologically bound Fox listeners, who have heard for months that the bill is a socialistic, extreme left, Un-American bill. What you take as left bashing is an attempt to get these people to see what the plan actually is.

[harun]

52. Possibly. Centrist however is perceived as a compromise between the Republicans

and the Democrats. I feel that is patently false. Republicans best interest is to vote NO on everything, obstruct everything. So who was the compromise with? It was a compromise between the interests of Health Insurance Corporations and the interests of the people.

I am not happy about that compromise but I think you bring up a good point about the audience Obama is dealing with. He isn't talking to rational people here.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spoony]

89. He said he didn't want to disrupt the system.

He's admitting his Change(TM) rhetoric is just that.

[treestar]

124. Well said - the actual right wing thinks this bill is what the far left

would want. Both the far right and far left bury their heads in the sand, I guess, and pretend each other does not exist, therefore thinking their views are mainstream.

[Ken Burch]

184. I'd really, really, really like there to be a moriatorium on the use of the word "mainstream"

in this forum, if not in the whole party.

The term "mainstream" is a rhetorical bludgeon, designed to make an artificial distinction between the ideas our rulers accept as legitimate and the ones they refuse to tolerate. It's only a term Republicans should be using. Our party should be above it, since its use only harms this party.

[whistler162]

46. It gets worse....

when President Obama smiled during the interview the left side of his smile was lower than the right.


Obviously he was dissing the "left"!

[Jennicut]

47. When has any Dem President not been challenged from the left?

Carter and Clinton were. Even FDR was. This is part of being a Dem. It is a big tent party. The left is not the enemy but I doubt you would win an election in 2012 by being Dennis Kucinich. He did not do it two times before. Let's face it, this is a center right to center left country. There is always other 3rd party-type candidates if he is not progressive enough for you. I really have no problem with those on the left who don't want a more centrist President. That is fine. Do what you want, it is a free (sometimes) country.

[depakid]

56. Actually, the data shows- on issue after issue that America is a surprisingly progressive nation

sometimes by very substantial margins.

[Jennicut]

70. Yes, people say they want something and then vote against it anyway.

People complain about their taxes being too high but also don't want to cut services (look in CA). Constant complaints in my state too. In Connecticut we have some of the highest taxes around and people constantly complain that cost of living here is too high. And yet in education and other areas, we are far and above one of the best states (# 2 in best educated in this list: http://www.statemaster.com/graph/edu_bes_edu_ind-education-best-educated-index). When Lowell Weicker introduced the state income tax in the early 90's here, people flipped, and yet CT survived and is better for it. We still have a Repub governor though as people have wanted a divided government here between the liberal legislature and more moderate Governor. Gov. Rell wants to cut more programs. People essentially want to have their cake and eat it too. We can move towards more progressive action if people bite the bullet and actually decide that wanting a better standard of living takes some extra costs. In many ways, the costs can be cut by regulating the big corps. We have expenses that come from areas other then taxes. Also, people have to stop voting against their interests. John McCain was not going to help the middle class in any substantial way and yet millions of middle class voters decided that they wanted to vote for him anyway. People say one thing and do another constantly in the United States. Which is way we are a center left to center right country. Obama is right there on the spectrum. He moves an inch to the left and people freak out. The US is dysfunctional when it comes to what they want. I mean, plenty of people voted for Reagan and Bush who were "moderates".

[Ken Burch]

102. FDR didn't get a left primary challenge

And virtually every worthwhile thing FDR did was in response to left pressure. If he'd stayed with what he was comfortable with, FDR's policies would have been exactly like Woodrow Wilson's...I.e., absolutely useless to a country facing economic collapse.

Indeed, the main reason Dems lost seats in the 1938 congressional midterms was that FDR did what Wall Street wanted and tried to balance the budget, thus pushing the country back down into depression(when the spending had pretty much lifted us out of it). If he'd said "fuck balancing the budget, I'm going to stick with saving the country" The party would never have lost enough seats to allow the right wing of the Democrats to join with Republicans in stopping the New Deal in its tracks.

1938 is further proof that for our party, centrism always leads to defeat.

[dionysus]

48. your bitter tears are nectar to my soul.

:hi:

[Tailormyst]

49. Nope- we were punked.

That is the kindest thing I can say right now without it being deleted.

[spoony]

127. Short, sweet, accurate. nt

[truedelphi]

179. And not only were we punked - we are supposed to remain so naive

And trusting, believing that in the end the Health Care Bill can be "Fixed" later.

[HughMoran]

54. .

You've jumped the fucking shark.

[dionysus]

65. just wait until the bill gets signed. you'll see displays of poutrage never before imagined.

i can't wait!

:toast:

[SoFlaJet]

67. Some of these fucking people...

So I really wonder WHO exactly they WILL be voting for in 2012 if not Obama. Palin? Pence? Romney? Oh wait, maybe Ralph "the Savior" will run again and split the vote, then they can all throw their votes away and hope a republican wins so they have something to be happily unhappy about for another decade.

[dionysus]

72. i'm starting to think deep down it's all about being perpetually miserable.

[SoFlaJet]

73. Exactly Dion

It's so much easier to BE like the republicans and say no to everything. But to actually affect positive change is a hard lift. We all know people in our day to day lives (though I CHOSE to pretty much stay away as much as I can) who are only happy when it rains (thank you Shirley Manson) and they carry their resentments around with them everywhere they go. I don't want to be like that, I don't want to LIVE like that.

[dionysus]

74. thx, and a good weekend to you!

:hi:

[SoFlaJet]

76. and to you

I'm sure there will be a few tears of joy choked back this Sunday at 2PM-my family NEEDS this bill to pass.

[DevonRex]

82. Yup. nt

[MadBadger]

92. No, I think that happened during 5 threads combined into one Super Thread Night.

[Hekate]

142. Couldna said it better, Hugh

Over the well-known shark without a surfboard..... :eyes:

Hekate

[ProSense]

69. Are you the left?

Obviously there are some idiots among the left.

Fox Noise was a perfect place to say that. The idiotic contingent on the left expect no strategy from a politician, no outdoing the other Party and undercutting their arguments.

Yesterday these same idiotic types were attacking Kent Conrad for allowing a state-run bank to be included in the student loan package. Conrad asked that it be taken out. Who knew the left was against state-run banks?

Here's one thing on the right the President rejected: the Stupak amendment. Now he could have said that on Fox, but what would that have accomplished?

[phleshdef]

71. He didn't "bash" anyone. Your post is dishonest and challenges your own integrity.

[WeekendWarrior]

75. Oh, for crap's sake

Are you serious?

Surely, you're not serious.

[Perky]

78. You are damn right he does.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LanternWaste]

84. I can't speak to "our" obligation... merely my obligation.

I can't speak to "our" obligation... merely my obligation, and my obligation is to support the candidate and the party which most closely aligns with my own sense of morality, civic duty, and national agenda.



However... I imagine if that "trashing of the left" is indeed as high on the list of our priorities, anyone who holds Obama to that standard would necessarily hold themselves to that standard also-- with nary a bad word or criticism from their own mouths in regards to any member of the left, else they would most likely be guilty of...

[4lbs]

85. How do you get "trashing the left" out of Obama's statement that he left some things out that the

left wanted because he thought they would be too disruptive to the healthcare system as a whole?

It seems some peoples' sensitivity meters are set on "sub-atomic" and everything Obama says will be misconstrued as being anti-liberal in some way.

[DevonRex]

86. They deliberately misconstrue what was said. They're no better than Fox News

on that score.

[treestar]

125. That's a good point

If there actually were a Faux in Reverse on the left it would sound like this.

[spoony]

88. You've brought the entire fen out, spitting and hissing

That's how you know you've hit the nail on the head. The guy comes right out and says he's rejected the left because he doesn't want to rock the boat. How much more clear could it be and they still defend it. Obviously they're either hopeless or agree with the center-right approach, all other options have been stripped away by the actions and inactions of the last year.

[Moochy]

160. All of DU's DLC assholes in one thread!

Ignore list, give me strength!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

93. You're a delicate little flower.

Not everything is about you. Suck it up.

[Ken Burch]

95. You know I wasn't saying it was about "me"

It was about the country's progressive majority.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

97. What progressive majority?

If this country was truly that progressive, they'd VOTE that way.

A few people on DU does not constitute a majority of the country.

[onenote]

128. y'know the notion of a "silent majority" was stupid when Nixon peddled it

its no less stupid when folks on the left do the same.

I don't for an instant believe that a majority of the nation subscribes to "progressive" views as they are defined by those who describe themselves as progressives on DU. Can I find polls that show support for progressive ideals? Sure. BUt restate some of the questions in a different or more specific way and you'll find a different result.

[saltpoint]

144. "Progressive" is a fluid term. The United States is not progressive enough

to support a healthy third party choice that would mount a significant challenge to the two major parties' tickets. It's been tried before. It has not succeeded.

There is more progressive agreement on key issues than a FOX News poll would suggest but that by no means translates to an apparatus by which a progressive ticket could represent a potential victory in a coast-to-coast election.

Cynthia McKinney is about as left as it gets on presidential tickets and she was crushed. The coalition demographics which would comprise a progressive voting block were not drawn to her candidacy, did not feel that she represented their progressive votes, and a huge percentage of those votes were cast to the man your post denigrates.

[zulchzulu]

94. Hey, there's always the Third Party candidate that get a few molecules of votes

Obama bashing the Left?

Oh yeah, that happened.

:crazy:

[last_texas_dem]

98. No

and I figure he's going to have a lot of fun trying to rally all of the finger-in-the-wind moderates and "independents" he seems to love so much to hit the streets for him when he runs for re-election.

[Ken Burch]

100. Indeed. Centrists always work SO VERY HARD in campaigns...

:puke:

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadBadger]

113. I wish this could still show up as

[LWolf]

114. No. But then, I didn't think he deserved it in '08. nt

[treestar]

119. He was not bashing the left. He was simply explaining to a right winger

that the left did not get all it wants.

Have you ever talked to real life right wingers? They think this bill is going to lead to a new Soviet Union in the U.S. The end of freedom. Communism and Marxism.

[Ken Burch]

135. So don't talk to them.

No Faux Noise viewer is ever going to grow a soul anyway.

[BklnDem75]

146. Use your brain...

Do you think the crazy right are the only ones that watch Fux? You do know there's a CENTER that helped him get where he is, right? I hate to break it to you, but not every viewer is a frothing at the mouth conservative. Who are you to tell the President where he shouldn't spread his message? Obama's decisions doesn't just affect us, it affects them too. You complained about lack of leadership, here it is. It really isn't all about what you want.

[Ken Burch]

166. The "center" doesn't watch Fox They know what it's about.

the only people who ever watch it are the ones whose minds are locked forever.

[BklnDem75]

169. If this thread is any indication,

you're on a roll with making wrongful assumptions. Considering your inability to see the difference between centrist dems and conservative republicans, I'll simply smile and nod each time you make a claim for the center.

[jillan]

131. Then don't vote for him. If you can't understand politics, then that's your problem.

[warm regards]

133. Clearly, you do not understand how this game is played.

[saltpoint]

143. Democratic voters will decide their choice in any potential primary

in the 2012 cycle.

No indication to date that Obama is not interested in a second term.

No indication to date that there is a viable challenger on the left.

There is a possibility of Evan Bayh running as an independent, but also a possibility of someone running to Romney's right, were Romney to become more inevitably the Pukes' nom than he is now.

Obama. Romney. Bayh. Palin. A Green candidate. All stronger possibilities, IMO, than Dean or Kucinich or someone else running to Obama's left.

[Ken Burch]

171. OK...I'll bite...

Why would "A Green candidate" be a stronger possibility than Dean or Kucinich? Especially since said Green candidate would also be running "to Obama's left"?

[saltpoint]

172. Hi, Ken. No -- I'm not seeing any left challenge to this president

for 2012, barring, that is, some unforeseen drastic turn of destiny.

Politically, he seems well-positioned.

The USA Greens are a great bunch of people but they have not been able to make the case as the Greens in Europe have. They'll likely run a ticket, and certainly it will be to Obama's left, but it will also be unpersuasive to many million of voters and they'll do little better than they did in 2008, which was comprehensively awful.

Dean and Kucinich -- both names come to mind and it is not out of the question that one or the other or both run for the Democratic nomination -- or try a third party effort if they want. Were either of them to ask me I would suggest that they reconsider either notion unless they want their asses kicked.

[Ken Burch]

176. At this point, I don't think Dennis will ever run for president again

He got the message when he went all over the country and tens of thousands of people cheered for him, but refused to vote for him. It's shameful that a person like Dennis would be given THAT message, but that's how it seems to work these days.

[saltpoint]

178. You may be right on Kucinich. And yet I think there is a possibility

that an appointment for him could be down the road -- possibly one he has wanted a while, maybe.

The case for Kucinich as a focused, principled, public servant is extremely strong. There is no apparatus to make it felt, and no money, and significant media resistance.

If Kucinich and others introduce legislation after tomorrow to make the country's health care policy more humane and more comprehensive, I think the Democrats who pressured him to vote yes on this bill should co-sponsor those initiatives. Kucinich may be better at coalition-building than he thinks, but he first has to try it.

What do you bet that this evening at John Boehner's house there is both melancholy and some serious booze being consumed?

[Ken Burch]

180. The image of tears streaking up Boehner's orange base is appealing.

As for Dennis...if here were to do anything else at this point, I'd like to see him stand for Voinovich's Senate seat. If Sherrod Brown could win statewide, Dennis could take it.

[saltpoint]

185. Ken, Brown is farther up the peak than Dennis Kucinich in Ohio,

and in a statewide election, I think Kucinich would be defeated.

Would I prefer him to the all-but-worthless Voinovich? Of course. But an open seat is going to require one of the two Democrats currently in the running for the nomination. Kucinich likely knows he has no realistic chance to be elected to the U.S. Senate. He would run well in many but not all of the northeastern districts, only moderately competitively in Franklin County, and he would be destroyed south, southeast, and especially southwest of I-270. He'd have residual support in Montgomery County, which was the only SW Ohio county hat went for Kerry in 2004, and then only by a modest margin. All the rest of that part of the state, which is vote-rich for Republicans, would make a bee-line to the polls to defeat Kucinich. No totals he could run up in his stronger NE districts would offset the percentage he'd lose by in the southern part of the state.

[Ken Burch]

186. Who are the current candidates, then?

Are they worthwhile or are they "centrist"?

[saltpoint]

187. Ken. You have to dump your polarities if you want to dabble in

politics.

"Worthwhile" is an arbitrary value on your personal system. There are 300 million some people in the United States. Of the adult voting population, your personal "worthwhile" is not someone else's "worthwhile," or the next person's, etc.

That construction is going to lead you to hypertension, heart attacks, dissociative events, and many enemies among grassroots organizers.

The major contenders for the Democratic nomination for the Senate in Ohio are Sec. of State Jennifer Brunner and Lt. Gov. Lee Fisher. Rob Portman is expected to be the GOP nominee.

[Ken Burch]

188. Sheesh....I meant politically worthwhile....I wasn't dismissing them as human beings

And It's not like it was a comment about you, so I'm not sure what you're being so touchy about.

Let me try this another way:

Which one would be the progressive candidate then(of the Dems)?

And would there be any possible reason to nominate the less-progressive one?

[saltpoint]

189. I wasn't responding in terms toward my take on Ohio politics 'cept at a

distance. I don't even live in Ohio, thanks be to almighty god.

"Any possible reason" is the language I was singling out. You appear to forget that the process has long been in place by which primary voters make decision on which candidate they wish to represent them. Sometimes your candidate wins; sometimes someone else's candidate does.

Brunner and Fisher are both good candidates. Unfortunately Ohio is almost tailor-made for Rob Portman. Either Democrat would have an uphill fight against Portman. Kucinich would have had little chance at all.

There is a refreshing contrast between Sec. of State Brunner and the man who held that office under a Republican administration -- Ken Blackwell.

[cleveramerican]

145. The middle is where consensus lay

By definition; the "left" is far away from consensus.

When pragmatic consensus is what you seek "the left" is no help to you.

[cornermouse]

147. Then why do you keep reaching out to appease the right.

under the guise of "pragmatism"? Or does that not apply to the right?

[cleveramerican]

148. It absolutely applies to the "right" as well

what can be agreed upon is all that matters in the end.

Those who refuse to compromise, on any side,in order to proceed, place themselves on the sidelines.

[cornermouse]

149. No it does not apply to the right.

That's been obvious for a long, long time.

[cleveramerican]

150. if that were true

HCR would be dead now.

[cornermouse]

151. Don't kid yourself.

If the current bill had the republican name attached, republicans would be hootin' and hollerin' right now. They aren't unhappy with the substance. Indeed, the substance of the bill is exactly what they, themselves, would have passed. They're unhappy because the name democratic party is attached to it instead of republican party.

[cleveramerican]

152. its an occassionally ugly business

do you think its kidding myself to say... if they had the votes the dems would have passed it last July?
conversely the republicans would have killed it, if they had the votes.
its a victory for the citizenry who have been clamoring for some action for decades.

neither side could hi-jack it completely, which I see as an affirmation of our national common sense.

[cornermouse]

155. It still remains at heart a bill that would have been, passed as is,

by the republican party. The fact that the democratic party is passing it doesn't make it acceptable or less abhorrent.

[IndianaGreen]

157. The 'middle' has been migrating rightward since the days of Reagan

What you call "middle" today, is what we called Republican a few decades ago.

[Moochy]

161. false advertsing

[karynnj]

158. Does a man who continually bashes the President and posts against

at least 90% of the Democratic party have any idea how the majority of the party feels?

You have the right to say this, but I think the vast majority of the left is happy that the President is out there fighting for Healthcare.

[Politicub]

159. Did he use the words "the right" in a disparaging way?

I can't find the link to the transcript, other wise I would do a CTRL-F to see.

[ncteechur]

162. Yeah, because he will do himself so much more good saying the opposite on Fox News. It is called

speaking to your audience.

[Moochy]

163. Telling them what they want to hear... just like when he talks to progressives!

oh wait nevermind that was Candidate Obama.

[spoony]

170. Bingo bango. nt

[LoZoccolo]

164. Try and stop him if you want to lol. n/t

[Orsino]

167. That's not "bashing."

You're confusing it with everything else one sees on Fox.

[Skittles]

168. he didn't deserve it the first time

anyone who was paying attention knew that

[Lord Helmet]

173. The majority of 2008 voters beg to differ.

See, that's how elections work.

He met the qualifications to run per the Constitution, and he arguably ran the most brilliant campaign in the history of this country.

He won fair and square.

Your opinion doesn't have any bearing on the facts, and the op shares your disdain for this president with this evening's episode of Provocative Context-Free Tales.

[Skittles]

175. the majority can be wrong, and very often is

I'm not disputing he won fair and square - but if you think this is the best we could have had, well, that's pretty much how we get what we deserve....people who paid attention have not been surpised at ALL how this presidency is evolving - I voted for Obama but I would have voted for a ham sandwich if they'd run it against a repuke - this HCR circus is just the latest episode making me cringe

[saltpoint]

191. We could have gone with Mike Gravel instead. But they held some primaries

in several states and turns out, Obama got more votes.

[Aramchek]

174. you're really having a bad reaction to Obama's impending success

[Ken Burch]

177. Look I want what's left of the healthcare bill to pass. I started another thread just to say that.

You're not going to make me into "the enemy", no matter how much you want to. The enemy is the Right, not the left.

[JeffR]

181. Damn right the enemy is the Right.

But explain again, if you'd be so kind, how a thread entitled "Does a guy who bashes 'the left' on Fox News DESERVE our party's nomination in 2012?" helps a single stinking thing at this point. Your explanation or apologia would be a hell of a lot more interesting than your OP above.

The President's remarks on this, regardless of your rhetorical burlesque, were a little disquieting, though objectively pretty ambiguous. Your remark by way of this OP, on the other hand, was quite straightforward. So please, help me and perhaps others out as to how your effort here is intended to achieve anything but demoralization and apathy. Having read some of your recent posts, I'd have to say that despite the high regard in which I've always held you here, I'll take whatever you have to offer on this issue with a big damn grain of rock salt. But please, put the rest of your cards on the table. So far in this round, you haven't shown anything very impressive. I have to think you're bluffing.

[Ken Burch]

183. I don't have any "cards"

And this thread was started days ago, right after that interview happened. I wasn't the only person who felt enraged about what was said.

What I was seeing in that interview seemed to be a moment when we, the progressive wing of the party, were finally being discarded. I'd be glad to see the Prez take steps to correct that impression.

[tammywammy]

182. Who do you suggest?

Who do you think could take on a sitting democratic president in a primary and win? Not only that, but then have a good chance at winning the general? Who do you suggest has that ability?

[hulka38]

192. Why did Obama do this interview? Who was his target audience? Obama did this interview

on Fox to get his message out to conservatives to assuage their deep fears that this bill will be a catastrophe to their health care. Fear is the message that Fox has been pumping nonstop wrt to everything but especially this bill.

Here's the quote: "Now, we can fix this in a way that is sensible, that is centrist. I have rejected a whole bunch of provisions that the left wanted that are — you know, they were very adamant about because I thought it would be too disruptive to the system."

Obama's message to conservatives: The left is adamant about what it wants and is unaware or doesn't care that it would disrupt the entire system and cause greater harm. Don't worry. We're centrists. We're practical and sensible. We're not going to screw up your health care like the lefties would if they had their way. Don't be afraid of this bill conservatives.

It's a swipe for sure. I'm not all that bent out of shape about it. But it is what it is. I'm not going to pretend it it didn't happen. Is it a bash? Semantics.

Again, it was a comment meant to relate to conservatives. That's the context. The problem is that it does reinforce the "looney left" stereotype in America when a Democratic president says that.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

193. Well, at least he didn't echo his COS' rhetoric (even though he was just talking about actions)

and I'm not entirely sure that I would say that what Obama said constitutes "bashing" although I can understand why inartfully adopting the Republicans' "the left" wording might bother people a little (including myself). I got his point, though, which is that he both accepted and rejected ideas/proposals from people on both sides when crafting his HCR proposal.

However, as to your question, yes, President Obama deserves our party's nomination in 2012 unless he completely loses his mind and begins speaking in tongues or like Rush Limbaugh.

[Freddie Stubbs]

195. If "the left" can't take any constructive criticism, they don't deserve to be taken seriously

[Ken Burch]

197. Where, might I ask, was the constructive criticism?

Constructive criticism is where you say "Here's what you might try doing instead of what you're doing now".

That's not what any of this has been about.

It's been about infantilizing us and treating us as a junior partner in the coalition, when we've done nothing to deserve either.

[branders seine]

196. why would a conservative, free-market, corporatist politician

say anything nice about liberals?

this is still Amerca after all.