"Progressive" holdouts, how do you respond to the following?:

[RBInMaine]

Dean, Krugman, Schultz, Boxer, Grayson, Sherrod Brown, Sanders, and KUCINICH are all FOR passing the healthcare bill at least as a START. It is very imperfect, but it is at least a START. Also, as Dean and so many others say, once passed and people see the GOOD points of it with all the fixes, its popularity will rise dramatically. There is no doubt. And it will be one massive kick in the teeth to the rotten RePUKElicans. Politics is the art of the possible at a given point in time, not the art of the perfect. We need a START. Blow it, and we won't have another chance for at least a decade, and in the meantime the status quo crushes us. Don't let the RePUKES win. Let's make a START !

[lamp_shade]

1. Pile-on starts in 3... 2... 1...

[vi5]

2. What I want some concrete answers on....

...in a simple way is: everyone keeps saying "This will cover 32 million more people!!!!"

O.K. what is the breakdown on that?

How many of those are because of expanding the access to medicaid?
How many of those are because of people who can't currently be covered due to pre-existings?

If the bulk of that 32 million are because of that, then I think it's a good thing and I'm convinced. But if even half of that number is based off of the fact that people now HAVE to buy insurance.....well I'm not sure how that's a selling point.

And also, what are the cost controls? For instance my son is only 4 and has a whole menu of pre-existing conditions. If my wife and I lose our jobs, yes he'll be covered....so that's good...but is there anything preventing that coverage from being as unaffordable as the hospital bills would be?

I just have seen a lot more platitudes and generalities than I have specific facts and numbers and that concerns me. Because if I'm a political junkie who has a specific, personal vested interest in this due to my situation and I can't really get the facts on this, then I don't see how it's going to be easy to convince people with less political inclination, and less of a specific situation to be affected by this.

[depakid]

3. The fact that you're even having to make this argument

illustrates what a sorry mix of crap this legislation has become.

Worse than that though, its cost the administration and congress trust and credibility- which once lost is very difficult to get back.

On the other hand, the Dems had go have something to wave around this fall- so I wish them luck selling it. Looks like they're going to need it.

[jefferson_dem]

4. Seems they would rather side with Stupak than these Dems.

Pitiful :puke:

[freddie mertz]

5. A simplistic analysis.

Anyone who is gung-ho over this legislation is the one who should have his/her head examined.

Grudging support is the best you are going to get from any genuine progressive out there.

And that should be welcomed as a generous concession, not continually bashed by party-line ideologues.

[vi5]

6. +1

Well put. This is a hold your nose situation like no other in recent memory.

[NorthCarolina]

7. Well said. eom

[Donnachaidh]

36. putting words in people's mouths is another tactic from the other side

learned well, huh?

[Bluenorthwest]

8. Show me the supporters that say 'this bill is excellent and perfect'

They don't exist. Each and every one of them says 'this is a start' or 'a good first step'. They say it must be fixed, will be improved, has to be expanded. None of them, not one, says this bill is the end of reform, they all say it is a start, just a start.
So. Holdouts? I have no vote to cast. Nor do you, nor anyone here. Seems to me our job is to prevent the start from being a stop. We have to make damn sure the 'first step' is just that, the first of many, not a long and lingering resting place.
You yourself type start, only in all caps. START. So you are whining about what now? That people who have no vote to cast are already pushing past that START and demanding that the steps continue? All of the people you list are voting yes, but all with grand qualifiers. Not one of them says 'this is a wonderful bill'. None of them say 'this is enough'. They all say, 'it is all we can do, then we will do more'.
Congress has a long history of saying they will correct or fix or improve laws that sit unchanged for decades. We will not allow that to happen on this one. The words of all of those who said 'START' will be remembered, and enforced in the electoral world.
If this is just a start, very imperfect, then excess celebration is tacky and naff. A journey's start is toasted quickly in order to save time for the travel. At journey's end comes the time for back patting and revelry. You claim this is the start, even as you set down your pack to celebrate the end.
If we just started, we have a long road, and much work ahead of us. So some of us are already doing that. Sorry if it bugs you, but this is what the future looks like. Reform is not almost done, it is almost begun.

[Prism]

9. Pretty easily, actually

Not being a member of the professional political class, and not having a career and future based on how well I get along with establishment politicians, it really makes no nevermind to me how much you appeal to authority. The whole "Well, our party says we should!" is a very Republican impulse. At least, it used to be a Republican impulse when we would bash them for their lockstep mentality, as we scorched them for their inability to do what's best for themselves while they vote for and support the rich and the powerful who are bending them over.

Well, now we know what Republicans were thinking. It was whatever is currently going on in your head. When you get a chance, could you write down the explanation? I've long wondered.

I do enjoy your paragraph though. The density of rote talking points creates a kind of political neutron star. So many brainless, disproven one-liners in one place, you almost cannot believe this thread wasn't sucked into a void.

So, well done there.

[Hello_Kitty]

10. Why do you care? We're irrelevant.

Well, until it results in disaster at which point you and your ilk will be blaming the dirty fucking hippies for it.

[uponit7771]

11. The so called progressives on this board aren't irrelevant but they are VERY inconsistant

[dana_b]

12. "retarded" and irrelevant

and evidently not "progressive"

[DCBob]

13. No one is "irrelevant"... every vote counts...

Its just that many progressives are so extreme in criticism of certain parts of this bill, they have missed the big picture entirely.

[Hello_Kitty]

15. And many supporters are so tonedeaf and oblivious they have no idea how unpopular it is.

It ain't just the DFHs who hate it. But if (when) we lose a bunch of seats in November, the DLC contingent here will be blaming the progressives.

[DCBob]

16. yeah, the rightwingnuts and teabaggers also hate it..

who are also blinded by their extreme politics.

[Hello_Kitty]

17. Jesus Christ on a Segway.

You really have no clue.

Don't get out and talk to voters much, do you?

[DCBob]

18. Interesting visual...

have a nice day.

[Sebastian Doyle]

22. Can't find a picture of that, unfortunately. Maybe the Antichrist on a Segway will have to do?

Well, not really ON a Segway, I guess.... :rofl:

[Donnachaidh]

37. so because of that you put on blinkers and close your ears to people

in your own party?

:wow: just :wow:

[DCBob]

41. I listen to all opinions from all sides..

My position is usually somewhere between the extremes.

[QC]

14. How does a "Democrat" like you propose to fix the bill?

If the votes aren't there to make the bill better now, then how will it be possible to fix the bill later?

[4lbs]

19. The same way most of the imperfections in Social Security, Civil Rights, MediCare were fixed later.

.

[derby378]

21. We no longer have the luxury of time

It's either NOW or never. Public option NOW.

[4lbs]

23. I fully support Grayson's "Medicare for All" and Sanders' Single-Payer bills.

However, while those are still being worked on and trying to be passed, Grayson and Sanders respectively are supporting this HCR legislation. They realize it's not perfect, but there is enough good in it to make a substantial difference for the better in most people's lives. Meanwhile, they will continue to fight to improve it with their own bills.

That's how we should approach things.

[derby378]

26. I sincerely hope you're right

The American people have suffered through so much already. They deserve the best access to health care possible without having to leave the country.

[kestrel91316]

40. Exactly. IMHO, HCR improvements start the day after passage. NGU.

[kestrel91316]

39. Wrong. We have plenty of time. 2012 was just a movie.

And you know we don't have NEARLY enough votes for the PO right now. AFAIAC the status quo is completely unacceptable. Unless you are one of the Haves, of course.

[Sebastian Doyle]

24. One problem with that.

When those bills were passed, you didn't have a massive infiltration of Republican moles within the Democratic party (known as the DLC) dedicated to the exact same corporatist bullshit that the Republican party is.

The DLC has absolutely NO intentions of "fixing it later". And if you believe they do, I've got a beachfront condo in Tucson to sell you.

[4lbs]

25. And yet the Republicans / Southern Democrats back then were still powerful enough

to delay the original passing of those bills for months or even years, and also got some original provisions removed to boot.

Nevertheless, the bills were improved dramatically from their original legislation at later dates. They were able to be improved upon because they had passed. A cornerstone, a building block, was established in each case.

Would you rather those bills not have passed at all back then because they were substantially weakened and gutted by the opponents?

[Sebastian Doyle]

27. Here's the difference between the Dixiecrats and the DLC.

The Dixiecrats of 1964 actually believed they were serving their constituents. Yes, their beliefs were stupid, wrong, and racist, but they genuinely believed them. It wasn't about corporate lobbyists sliding a check across the table.

DLC'ers couldn't give a flying fuck what their constituents want.

[RBInMaine]

29. DLC DLC DLC...bla bla bla.

[Sebastian Doyle]

32. Well, you asked.

So I told you the truth. :)

[Ken Burch]

35. It'll take people getting buried under an earthen dam? And little girls getting blown up in church?

Gosh, that's reassuring.

[derby378]

20. By remembering that this is NOT a progressive bill

It's not even a good bill. And it certainly isn't what the American people wanted or needed.

[RBInMaine]

30. Fine. PRODUCE the votes to pass YOUR bill. Shit, you CAN'T! Oh gee. Guess you have to find

reality for a change in your life and do SOMETHING. Please, find the planet Earth.

[derby378]

31. Your snark isn't going to make the bill a good bill, either

Ball's in your court.

[Donnachaidh]

38. uhh, y'all are having problems producing the votes too -- gloating a little early?

right wing bloviation seems to be adopted by the rhammies...

[spoony]

28. Oh dear, I hope you don't teach logic.

Appeals to authority and numbers, cliches, AND "last gas for 300 miles" all in one post. Blimey.

[ibegurpard]

33. It's too big to fail?

that's why everyone's on board.

[Ken Burch]

34. Look I hope the bill passes. We do need the victory in name, I guess.

But those who wanted the progressives to back it owed it to us to be apologetic and tactful in how they asked...they didn't have any right to just keep saying, in effect "know your place".

They owed it to us to treat us as equals.