Educate me. How will immigration reform help the US?

[greencharlie]

I'm open to the idea... I have no preset ideas on the subject. I can understand the whole "less jobs for US folks" and the "rights of the immigrants"...

So what's the deal?

[elocs]

1. Why exactly is it up to people here to educate you?

Aren't you capable of doing it yourself?

[greencharlie]

2. well...

would just like to hear from people that share similar beliefs to me...

but nevermind then... I guess the HCR deal has everyone all nervous.

[Mz Pip]

3. You might be surpised.

The opinions on immigration reform are pretty diverse here. What were you expecting to see?

[underpants]

4. Not to dehumanize it but what we have is an inventory problem

We don't know who is here

Not that they are dangerous we just don't know the number and where they are for effective planning.

If we gave people who are going to get here anyway a way to step up and register (they will) we will have the information we need.... BUT "industry" doesn't want them to be on an official roll and the wall building business certainly doesn't want the "threat" to be revealed to be an illusion.

All of that steps over the real issue here- namely that we don't realize the cloud we live in courtesy of the news that we receive. If they are allowed a means of being here "legally" what might they do? They might do what pretty much every other population does which is to..........wait for it.... organize. Uh-oh! can't have that. Can't remind people of "the good old days" when wages for workers were anywhere near what they should be. We have created cults of personality of the masters of the universe (CEO's, Greenspan, etc.) where the top are just so frickin' awesome that they deserve their birthright at 133% wages of the people they employ.

An upgrade in technology is in order and would take care of a lot of the "problems" with "illegals". The INS still works with paper records for the most part- digitalizing them would wipe away about 80% of the "problem".

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Deep13]

6. It wil bring the law in line with reality. nt

[Igel]

19. Like that's a valid concern.

Let's bring the speed limits in line with reality. Let's bring the laws on assault in line with reality.

There's reality. There's what ought to be. The laws try to make part of "what ought to be" reality, not the other way around.

All Nature is but Art, unknown to thee;
All chance, direction, which thou canst not see
All discord, harmony not understood,
All partial evil, universal good:
And, spite of pride, in erring reason's spite,
One truth is clear, whatever is, is right.

Of course, racism, genocide, murder, theft, and oppression are also "nature." Not what Pope had in mind, of course.

[Deep13]

20. That's not what's going on here.

We've got a system that allows illegal aliens into the country with a wink and a nod by hit and miss enforcement of the border. We let them in while pretending we are not and essentially allow them to become a permanent underclass in this country with no rights to be a source of cheap labor. So now, after some of them have been here for decades, we have a choice of enforcing the actual law that we ignored for decades or recognize reality and give them the rights if not of citizens then at least of resident aliens.

[FrenchieCat]

7. Well since we aren't going to capture 12 million people and send them back

to whatever country, path to citizenship would be a more rational step to take
to bring them out of the shadows. Many of them work already, but oftentimes for
subwages, and in fact, they depress the wage level. I've seen too many Folks
standing around Home Depot to not know how that works. It's great for the employers
of such, bad for Americans who can't compete for such jobs precisely because of
the wages amount in some cases is below minimum wage.

[mcollins]

8. Why would we send anyone back?

Our country is a place where everyone is equil, not just the ruling class, not just those born here. The foundation of this country is we are all equil. Equil in all ways!

Reality may be different, but sending someone 'back' who is here 'illegal' is wrong. If you can't see that you don't get this country.

[FrenchieCat]

10. We are not Equil.....

cause that is not a word......and I was using the argument of the less tolerant; as there are those who don't like immigrants, but don't ever think far enough to address the issue of what is to be done with those here without documentation. My answer is that we aren't going to be rounding them up and sending them back; so we might as well cut through the chase.

[mcollins]

11. my reply wasn't directed at you, FC.

Mine was in response to the OP. I'll try to be more exacting in my spelling. I am afraid the between dyslexia and RA my exactness suffers. What I need is a computer that types from my thoughts, rather than my fingers.

Of course that wouldn't help the dyslexia, would it. Oh, well. Can you suffer my inabilities a bit or must I always avoid posting with you?

Teasing. I'll do better- promise.

[vaberella]

9. You need to go away or learn to use google---which ever is faster. n/t

[customerserviceguy]

12. It won't

Once we legalize those who are in the shadows, American business and farmers will just find more people who will be in the shadows, since they need a docile workforce that can be poorly paid. Once the current undocumented workers become documented, and thus able to avail themselves of the protections of US law, they'll just join the unemployed.

And don't let anybody sell you any crap about, "This time, we'll get tough with employers!" I heard it all before with Simpson-Mazzoli.

[greencharlie]

13. thanks

for the replies... thought provoking.

[customerserviceguy]

17. You're welcome

You know what your problem is, you don't have 1000+ and/or a star next to your name. I went through the same hassles a few years ago when I joined. After awhile, people either learned to actually read my posts, or just put me on ignore.

[Zynx]

14. Show me one credible economic study that shows that immigration leads to job losses.

I really dare you.

[Dappleganger]

15. Increase the tax base.

Give them a stake in the game instead of just sending money out of the US. Stop depressing wages and contributing to asshole employers.

[customerserviceguy]

16. If newly-legalized workers

were to be able to keep their jobs (instead of being fired and replaced with new undocumented workers) what makes you think they will stop sending support to their close relatives out of the country?

[underpants]

18. They already pay taxes

I literally spent MINUTES reading and collecting this information.

No, it isn't 100% complete but if you post something you are looking for I will do my best to find the FACT on it for you as best as I can (meaning I will tell you how much I trust it and you can make your own decision).

This issue is one with many "facts" to it but I trust what I am about to post.

Much thanks to suffragette.

For round numbers there appear to be about 10 Million "illegal immigrants" or "undocumented workers". Not to parse words here, they both mean basically the same thing.

Of undocumented/illegals--> 60-75% entered illegally. The other 25-40% entered legally and overstayed their visas or otherwise violated the terms of their admission.
-Of those 57% are Mexican, 23% are from other Latin American countries, 10% are Asian, 5% are European or Canadian, and 5% are from everywhere else.

Of the Foreign Born Population (~ 35 Million) in the US 25% are illegal/undocumented-- 30% are Legal, 30% Naturalized, 8% Refugees, 5% Temporary legal.

40% of illegals are women. 54% live in married families or other families. Fewer then half are single men and unattached.

According to the US Social Security Administration 75% pay payroll taxes and will contribute $6-7 BILLION in Social Security funds that they will never claim.

Okay here is where it gets fuzzy.

90-96% are employed (I saw both numbers)

AND NOW the big question

Do they drain social service resources MORE than they contribute?

The CATO Institute (yes them) says:

Myth number four: Immigrants impose a financial burden on taxpayers. Immigrants do make somewhat heavier use of means-tested welfare programs than natives. There have been especially flagrant abuses by immigrants of particular welfare programs, such as Supplemental Security Income. But because immigrants tend to come to the United States during the start of their working years --between the ages of 18 and 35 -- they make very large net contributions to the two largest income transfer programs: Social Security and Medicare. When the payroll tax contributions of immigrants are taken into account, the Urban Institute found that the foreign born constitute a net fiscal windfall to the public sector of some $20 billion a year. To the extent that welfare use by immigrants is a problem, this can be addressed by restricting the welfare eligibility of immigrants, not by keeping immigrants out.
http://www.cato.org/dailys/4-22-97.html

PBS (yes THEM) says

Immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in public services in their lifetime?

REALITY: Welfare use among non-refugee immigrants is lower than among U.S. native-born citizens in the same age group (15-64). The 1990 census reported that 20.4 percent of immigrants were on welfare, compared with 26.2 percent of U.S. native-born citizens. In 1997, immigrants paid an estimated $133 billion in federal, state and local taxes. A typical immigrant and his or her offspring pay an estimated $80,000 more in taxes than they will receive in federal, state and local benefits over the course of their lifetimes.

http://www.pbs.org/itvs/thecity/immigratio...

And Finally Jesus-is-Savior (with hypnotic music) says:

5. Illegal aliens absolutely do not contribute more than they cost. Certainly the millions in prison and on welfare aren't contributing a dime to our economy, and the ones who are working often are paid in cash with no deductions for taxes at all. The ones who use fraudulent social security numbers and qualify to pay taxes and social security have so many deductions for dependents that they pay little if any taxes. We have seen them pay less than $100 in taxes and get back $4,000 refunds (thanks to earned income tax credits and multiple dependents). The Center for Immigration Studies estimates that the average Mexican illegal alien costs U.S. taxpayers a whopping $55,000 each. Some bargain, eh?
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%...
and adds


3. Illegal aliens are NOT necessarily coming here to work. Lou Dobbs recently reported that 33 percent of our prison population is now comprised of non-citizens. Plus, 36 to 42 percent of illegal aliens are on welfare. So, for a good proportion of these people, the American dream is crime and welfare, not coming here to work.

Okay I threw that one in.

Well so far that is what I have found. If you want me to go searching for any other specific questions please post them.


http://journals.democraticunderground.com/underpants/27