The Presidents #7: Andrew Jackson

[Ardent15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Jackson

Discuss him and his Presidency.

[LeftishBrit]

1. Defined by his brutal ethnic cleansing of the Native Americans, as far as I'm concerned

[area51]

2. +1 (n/t)

[proteus_lives]

17. He's more complex then that.

He defined and helped build modern America.

[mikekohr]

23. Thievery, thuggery, mutilation, and genocide are complex qualities

they remain his defining qualities and by extention a black and ugly smear on our collective history as a Nation and a brutal reminder of man's inhumanity to his fellow man.

from the web page "Your Heroes Are Not Our Heroes." http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#ANDREW JACKSON


ANDREW JACKSON: As a general, he lead an army against the Creek people. Defeating the Creek at the Battle of Horseshoe Bend, he ordered his soldiers to cut off the noses of the 557, killed Creek warriors to make easier the tallying of the dead. After removal of the noses of the Creek warriors, Jackson's troops skinned the bodies of the dead. The skins were tanned and made into trinkets, and souvenirs such as bridle reins. 6).

Defying the Supreme Court, as President, he forced the removal of the Choctaw and Cherokee Nations to Oklahoma on the Trail of Tears. Nearly one in four, or over 4000 Cherokee perished on this death march. 31). 1). 12). 11).

The Choctaw fared better. Only one in seven perished, or approximately 2500 men, women and children. To add insult to injury the Choctaw were forced to pay the cost of, $5,097,367.50 for their own removal. Their land in Mississippi was sold for $8,095,614.89. The balance, $2,998,000.00, was kept by the US government. 71).

Jackson felt that conditions of the Cherokee removal, the "Trail of Tears," was so desirable that he noted, "How many thousands of our own people would gladly embrace the opportunity of removing to the West on such conditions?" 64). Let the record show that no U.S. citizen took Jackson up on his offer.



"International Brotherhood Days" http://www.brotherhooddays.com

mike kohr

[proteus_lives]

33. It was a vicious war.

Do you know what the Creek did at Fort Mims?

[mikekohr]

39. Every excess committed by Native People was committed in defense of their life, land & liberty

Every excess committed by Jackson was done in aggression, dispossession and extermination.

mike kohr

[proteus_lives]

50. So slaughtering women and children is ok if you were Native American?

:eyes:

Wow, you're just as bad as the people you claim to hate.

[mikekohr]

53. The killing of innocents is always wrong, always counter productive, and forever remains

a stain one one's record. Those that killed innocents at Fort Mims have their sins to account for. Likewise so does Jackson, the topic of this thread.

mike kohr

[proteus_lives]

57. Fair enough.

But history shouldn't be whitewashed for anybody.

The Native Americans were in a brutal struggle for the land. They lost but that loss doesn't make them stainless victims. That's a disservice.

Both sides deserve full consideration, debate and thought about their actions and motivations.

[depakid]

60. "Justice Marshall has his decision, now let him enforce it"

It's also ironic that he's on the $20 note, considering his crusade against the national bank.

[sudopod]

3. /thread

http://www.cracked.com/article_15895_5-most-badass-presidents-all-time.html

From the link:

=========================

Most Badass Quote:


"I have only two regrets: I didn't shoot Henry Clay and I didn't hang John C. Calhoun."

That's right. In a life rich with murdering people for little-to-no reason, Jackson's only regret was that he didn't kill quite enough people. People like Calhoun who, it should be noted, was Jackson's vice president.

[elocs]

4. I have a $1 coin that has Jackson on it.

Being from Wisconsin I found it notable that Jackson once received a 1400 pound block of cheese and opened the White House doors and allowed the public to come in and eat it. Supposedly it was gone in 2 hours but the smell and stain lasted for a long time.

[Arkana]

5. Jackson was an interesting fellow.

You can hate him for his blatant racism, sure--but a vast majority of the country held those very same beliefs in Jackson's time. I'm not saying it was right, I'm just saying that's how it was.

The fact is that Jackson was the first President to see the strength of the Union truly tested (South Carolina's little nullification hissy fit). Had it not been for how he reacted (by threatening to hang SC's elected leaders, starting with his own VP John C. Calhoun), a very different precedent might have been set...and I would hazard a guess that by 1860 this would have been a very different nation.

[Hippo_Tron]

9. What do you think would've happened if Jackson had been less forceful?

Also, I wonder what would've happened if Jackson had been President in 1860.

[Arkana]

13. I think Jackson would have ultimately sided with the Union.

Regardless of his feelings on slavery, he valued the preservation of the Union above all else.

[proteus_lives]

22. In 1860?

The Civil War would been over a lot faster.

And less forceful? The US would smaller, as Jackson's force helped the nation secure the Louisiana purchase, Texas and Florida.

[Ter]

10. He threatened to hang SC's elected leaders?

That sounds a bit fascist to me.

[Arkana]

14. He said it in the sense of "Secession is illegal and if you try it I will kick your fucking ass."

[damonm]

16. Bingo. "Disunion by armed force is treason",

Quoth AJ, and hanging was the punishment for treason in those days.

[proteus_lives]

20. He said, "By the eternal, I'll smash them!"

I just read a bio about him. ;-)

[Ter]

21. There's no nice way to threaten hanging

He sounded like a thug.

[AngryAmish]

6. His movement is the Democratic Party!

[salguine]

7. He was an asshole and a bully who got off on picking fights with people...whether on a

one-on-one level (i.e., endless duels and challenges to duels) or on a somewhat larger scale (lots of international saber-rattling, the Trail of Tears). He didn't do anywhere near enough genuinely good stuff to outweigh or compensate for all that.

[yellerpup]

8. He did not negotiate for Chickasaw lands

Unless "hand it over or die" qualifies as negotiation. He took credit for defeating the Redsticks but that victory belongs to his Native allies, not Jackson. I really hate it that he is on a $20 bill.

[mikekohr]

26. One Dollar Bill

GEORGE WASHINGTON:
Known as the, "Father of our Country," he is known by a different name among the Onadaga People. Washington is remembered by the Onadaga as , "The Town Destroyer," and the killer of women and children. 12). 71).

He once described Indian people as, "Having nothing human except the shape." 1).
Washington would make a comparison between Native People and wolves in 1783, "... both being beasts of prey, tho' they differ in shape," and in his words deserved, "total ruin." http://www.eyapaha.org

Having tried twice, unsuccessfully, to enter the British Army, he formed a militia, allied with the British, during the French and Indian War. It was Washington's hope and ambition that this alliance would result in a commission to the British Army.
Washington led this militia against a peaceful village of Native people and slaughtered the inhabitants in a manner so wanton and brutal as to cause mortification, and condemnation even among his own allies in this war, the British.
This British mortification and wounded sensibility over the slaughter of the villagers, was short lived however. Washington was rewarded by the British, after the war, with title to 80,000 acres of "Indian" land. It was suggested, by his British allies, that this land should be shared with the commoners that served Washington in his militia as payment for their services to the Crown. Washington felt that dividing the land among his soldiers would be an insult to the honor of his officers and himself. Washington solved this dilemma, and spared himself insult, by keeping title of the 80,000 acres for himself.
It was on this 80,000 acres that Washington started a slave plantation. Selling at inflated prices, portions of this "Indian" land, made him a rich and influential member of the British colonies. These riches and influence, along with his prior "militia" experience against the Native People, propelled him to become the leader of Colonial military resistance against the British crown during the War for Independence. 43).

During the Revolutionary War, General Washington, sent General John Sullivan and 5000 men against the fiercely neutral Onondaga People in August of 1779. Washington instructed Sullivan that no talks of peace were to be considered until all villages, homes, fields, food-stores, cattle herds and orchards of the Onondaga were destroyed. Sullivan completed Washington's orders just as winter set in. Hundreds of Onodaga People starved to death and died of exposure in the deep winter snows. 12). 71).
During Washington's darkest hour at Valley Forge, when his troops faced starvation and death by exposure, the Onieda People carried over 600 bushels of corn and many blankets to Washington's desperate troops. After the war was over, the generosity of the Onieda was re-paid by the confiscation of their lands. The Onieda were scattered like leaves before a winter wind. Some remained on a small parcel of land in New York, others migrated to Wisconsin, and the remainder found refuge in Canada. 12).


http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#GEORGE WASHINGTON

[mikekohr]

27. 5 Dollar Bill

ABRAHAM LINCOLN:
In my opinion the greatest man ever to hold the office of president. I however in all fairness must also point out the fact that after commuting the death sentences of 268 Dakota warriors in 1862, he allowed the execution of 38 Dakota men at the largest mass hanging in U.S. history. Many of the condemned men played no part in the rebellion. One of the executed, was a man named Chaska. Chaska's sole involvement in the rebellion , consisted of protecting a young white woman named Sarah Wakefield. To ensure the young lady's safety and to protect her honor Chaska went so far as to "take" Miss Wakefield as his wife. After the hostilities ended Miss Wakefield courageously but futilely defended Chaska's actions and conduct. Chaska, and his 37 condemned compatriots, plunged through the trap doors of the gallows on December 26th, 1862, the day after the Christian celebration of Christmas. 94).

In 1863 President Lincoln, at a conference with Native leaders from the Southern Plains, presented the leaders with Presidential Peace Medals. Attempting to persuade the Native leaders of the superiority of White society he lectured them with the words, "We are not as a race so much disposed to fight and kill one another as our Red Brethren." Certainly these words must have bewildered the Native leaders as they were aware that over 300,000 men had died in the Civil War up to that point in time and another 300,000 would die before Lincoln himself was assassinated .


http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#ABRAHAM LINCOLN

[mikekohr]

28. 20 dollar bill

ANDREW JACKSON: As a general, he lead an army against the Creek people. Defeating the Creek at the Battle of Horseshoe Bend, he ordered his soldiers to cut off the noses of the 557, killed Creek warriors to make easier the tallying of the dead. After removal of the noses of the Creek warriors, Jackson's troops skinned the bodies of the dead. The skins were tanned and made into trinkets, and souvenirs such as bridle reins. 6).
Defying the Supreme Court, as President, he forced the removal of the Choctaw and Cherokee Nations to Oklahoma on the Trail of Tears. Nearly one in four, or over 4000 Cherokee perished on this death march. 31). 1). 12). 11).

The Choctaw fared better. Only one in seven perished, or approximately 2500 men, women and children. To add insult to injury the Choctaw were forced to pay the cost of, $5,097,367.50 for their own removal. Their land in Mississippi was sold for $8,095,614.89. The balance, $2,998,000.00, was kept by the US government. 71).

Jackson felt that conditions of the Cherokee removal, the "Trail of Tears," was so desirable that he noted, "How many thousands of our own people would gladly embrace the opportunity of removing to the West on such conditions?" 64). Let the record show that no U.S. citizen took Jackson up on his offer.

http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#ANDREW JACKSON

[mikekohr]

29. 50 dollar bill

President U.S. GRANT:
As Commanding General of the Union Army, Grant was appalled by the slaughter at Sand Creek. He said the actions of Colonel Chivington were nothing less than murder. In October of 1868 however General Grant was quoted by the New York Times, "....the settlers and emigrants must be protected, even if the extermination of every Indian tribe is necessary to procure such a result." 42).

Violating the separation of state and government President Grant issued an executive order in 1870, that gave franchise to various religious denominations on the reservations. The intent of this executive order was to destroy Native spiritual belief and further hurry along the process of "whipping the Indian out of the man." Some denominations went so far in making church services mandatory, rations were denied those that did not attend services, or were with-held from those that continued to practice their traditional beliefs. In some cases, when denial of rations to a reluctant "convert" did not work, rations were also denied to the relations, and family of the reluctant "convert" in an effort to prod the person along the path of Christianity. It was in effect, convert or starve, an American version of feeding the "Martyrs" to the lions.

After the Panic of 1873, President Grant was looking for a way to divert citizen's attention from the economic crisis gripping the country and the growing scandals that plagued his administration. President Grant ordered George Armstrong Custer to scout the Black Hills in search of gold, in direct violation of the treaty of 1868. One provision of the Treaty of 1868 stipulated that the government of The United States was responsible for keeping white settlers out of the Black Hills area. When thousands of miners invaded the Black Hills President Grant again violated the treaty and ordered the Army to do nothing. It was his hope that hostility would break out. It did, thus giving the U.S. government the justification to make war upon the Lakota people. 23).

In the brutal winter of 1876, President Grant ordered all Lakota People to move to the various agencies by January 31, 1876. The order stated that all Lakota that did not move to the agencies by this date would be considered "hostiles." Deep snow and temperatures that reached 45 degrees below zero prevented some of the messengers from even reaching the far flung winter encampments before the deadline passed. Those that received the order ignored it as foolishness and refused to place the lives of their elderly and young at risk and instead sent word that they would comply when the weather broke. Regardless, after the deadline passed, President Grant ordered the military campaign that ended the freedom of the Lakota People as well as led up to the demise of Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer and approximately one-third of his command at the place the Lakota called, Greasy Grass.

As President, Grant advocated and encouraged the slaughter of the buffalo. Between the years 1870-1875 the buffalo were reduced in number from more than 15 million to less than 1 million. 44). From 1874 through 1875 between ten to twenty tons of buffalo bones a day were shipped East on the Santa Fe Railroad alone. 55).

After his gross violation of the Treaty of 1868 Grant sent military negotiators to force the Lakota to "sell" the Black Hills to the United States. These very negotiators would write in 1876 of the sins that they were compelled to commit: "....Our country must forever bear the disgrace and suffer the retribution of its wrongdoing. Our children's children will tell the sad story in hushed tones, and wonder how their fathers dare so trample on justice and trifle with God." 31

http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#President U.S. GRANT:

[mikekohr]

30. 100 dollar bill

BENJAMIN FRANKLIN: Remembered as our most fondly regarded "Founding Father."

When colonial governments employed the "Spanish method" of exterminating Native People, the jolly and avuncular Franklin wrote that the huge English Mastiffs, trained to kill and tear a man to pieces, should be locked in a cage for a time before the hunt so that they may be, "Fresher and fiercer for the attack." 52)
But Franklin also recognized the beauty and appeal of Native culture when he wrote, "No European who has tasted Savage life can afterwards bear to live in our societies."1)

http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#BENJAMIN FRANKLIN

[mikekohr]

31. 2 dollar bill

THOMAS JEFFERSON: "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just."
In 1808, a delegation of Cherokee people, pleaded with President Jefferson to make them citizens, so that they could be granted protection from renegade whites, that were robbing their farms, and business', and killing their people. Jefferson, the father of our democracy, denied their request. 1).

Jefferson wrote that the United States should, "...now to pursue them to extermination, or to drive them to new seats beyond our reach." http://www.eyapaha.org

As President, Jefferson suggested that Indian Chiefs be encouraged to go into debt to government trading houses so that the debt could be then paid for by forcing the Indians to cede their lands to the United States. 64).

Located on Jefferson's slave plantation of Monticello, were burial mounds that contained the remains of thousands of Native People. Jefferson disinterred many of these bodies to satisfy his curiosity in anthropology. The descendants of these unearthed dead however, were less than satisfied with this behavior.

Jefferson defended his looting of Indian graves with the words, "The dead have no rights." 64).

http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#THOMAS JEFFERSON

[mikekohr]

32. 3 dollar bill

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH:
While campaigning for president, Bush stated that he believed states had higher legal authority than tribal governments, a view that is in direct conflict with established constitutional law. Bush later retreated from this indefensible position.


"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator."
-President-elect George W. Bush- 12/18/2000 50).


In November, 2001, at the height of the conflict in Afghanistan, Bush quietly rescinded a Clinton-era executive order that streamlined the cumbersome process tribal governments were required to complete while using their own money to buy back their own lands and returning the land to trust status. Approximately 66% of tribal land holdings were removed from tribal control after the passage of the "infamous" Dawes act in 1884. First Nations have attempted to buy back as much of this "lost reservation land" as possible but have been thwarted and impeded by the legal barriers placed in their way. The Clinton-era executive order would have greatly aided First Nation's attempts to recover their own land. The Bush administration bent to the will of State-attorney Generals, municipalities and governors that were concerned of a loss of tax revenues and feared, among other things, the possibility of "low income housing" being placed on such land. Ron Allen, vice president of the National Congress of American Indians said, " ....quite frankly they are afraid of Indians. They are afraid of Indian power, they don't trust tribes and they don't trust tribal government, and it really has racist overtones." The Bush administration, claiming the wording of the Clinton-era order was unclear, promised to issue a similar order with less ambiguous language. Months later, no action has yet been taken on this promise. 47).

In December of 2001, an organization of tribal governments from across the nation met with Bush's Secretary of the Interior, Gale Norton, to protest the Bush administration's proposed re-organization of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. The tribal leaders protested that tribes were not consulted in the process and had serious questions about the plan. After the gathering unanimously rejected the proposal, Norton told the gathering that the plan would proceed without their support or consent. 48).

In 2003, the Bush administration, effectively stopped completion of a decade long project, named Mni Wiconi.. The ambitious project was designed to pipe treated water from the Missouri River to the arid Pine Ridge Reservation. Mni Wiconi, which means "water of life," would have brought water to what has been historically America's most economically depressed county.
Many of the 35,000 people on Pine Ridge do not have running water and many of the wells on the reservation are polluted by septic system percolation or contaminated by nitrates. It is not uncommon for many of the Lakota People on Pine Ridge to get their water delivered by truck or transported in jugs.
As the pipeline was laid across the arid landscape of South Dakota, it brought water to Indian as well as non-Indian residents. The project was nearing completion in 2002, an election year.
George W. Bush hand-picked John Thune in 2002 to unseat incumbent Democratic Senator Tim Johnson. An effort to register voters in the Indian communities of South Dakota resulted in large numbers of new voters, that voted overwhelmingly in favor of Johnson. Pine Ridge voters voted in particularly high numbers.. The "Indian vote" propelled Johnson to the slimmest of victories. Thune's loss did not go unnoticed by the Bush White House.
Within months, the Bush administration, slashed funding to Mni Wiconi, that stopped the work on the project just as the pipeline was reaching the borders of Pine Ridge. Without access to a dependable supply of fresh water, Pine Ridge has little hope of economic development. Stopping the project just as it nears its destination is a cut of the cruelest sort, that perpetuates conditions normally associated with third world nations long suffered by the people of Pine Ridge.

George Bush describes himself as a, "compassionate conservative," and wears his Christian faith on his sleeve. Call the President, and remind him that exacting political retribution and revenge on America's most destitute ethnic group is neither compassionate nor Christian. 63). http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2003/03/17/news/local/news04.txt

http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH:

[Jennicut]

46. The treament of Native Americans throughout the history of the United States

has been horrible. Thank you for posting all of this, I knew our history was bad just not this bad.

In Connecticut, we have the Pequot Indians. They have a very sad story of being nearly wiped out by Puritans, with the Mohegan and the Narragansett tribes helping. The Mohegans also have a reservation in CT, like the Pequots. Foxwoods and The Mohegan Sun are both popular casinos in CT, operated by the Pequots and Mohegans.

Per wikipedia:
The Foxwoods Resort Casino opened in 1992 in Ledyard, Connecticut . Operated by the Mashantucket Pequot Tribe and earning $1.5 billion. The casino is the largest in the world, and is more profitable than any one casino in Las Vegas or Atlantic City. With 7,200 slot machines and 380 table games, the 314,000 square-foot Foxwoods Casino is the largest casino in the world. The agreement between the Mashantucket Pequot Tribal Nation and the State of Connecticut promises the state $80 million or 25% of their annual slot revenue. For the first 10 years of operation, the state has received more than $1.7 billion from Foxwoods alone.

The Mohegan Sun Resort & Casino is also located in Connecticut. It has been in operation since 1996 and is a operated by the Mohegan tribe and the South African casino conglomerate. This enterprise is 150,000 square-feet and consists of 3,000 slot machines and 180 table games. It is the second largest casino in the United States, located a few miles away from Foxwoods in Uncasville, Connecticut.

The success of both casinos is due in no small part to their location roughly halfway between New York City and Boston.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_gambling_enterprises

Some people in CT see the Pequots as being controversial and as opportunists who had a small amount of Pequot blood. To me, if they were Pequot in any way, they deserve their land and whatever they want to do with it.

[yellerpup]

55. You make a good point with "small amount of Pequot blood...."

Blood quantum (percentages determined by a formula determined by the Bureau of Indian Affairs) is just another way of cutting descendants off the survivors of the genocide off from their heritage and any settlement moneys still owed to the tribes.

[Jennicut]

59. The Pequots themselves require only 1/16th degree blood quantum for membership

I have no problem with that.

[yellerpup]

44. Thanks for putting these facts into play...

Few people understand the true history of our country and the attitude of the 'founders'.

[era veteran]

40. He was a selfish , ruthless pig

A great song by Buffy Sainte-Marie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGaTrsoawlw

[yellerpup]

45. Wado for this link.

Last Christmas I met a woman at a party who asked me why "you people" don't give back some of the money that the USA has 'handed out' over the past few centuries. I said, "Show me the treaty that 'you people' honored, then there might be reason to talk."

The song was beautiful and heartbreaking.

[dana_b]

58. yep

nor Creek, nor anyone. He was a ruthless S.O.B.

[Odin2005]

11. Racist jerk who screwed up the economy by killing the Bank of the US.

He certainly doesn't deserve to be on the $20 bill.

[Vidar]

41. That's the main thing he did right.

[Odin2005]

43. Making it so economic panics happened with stunning regularity every 20 years was a good thing?

[Zomby Woof]

88. There were panics DURING the charters of the Bank of the U.S.

I usually try to avoid answering you, because your knowledge of U.S. history is wretched. The Embargo Act of 1807, which was a direct result of President Jefferson's meddling, resulted in one of the worst depressions in U.S. history, second or third only to the Great Depression. In 1819, a depression occurred during James Monroe's first term. So there's 2 right there which occurred well before before the 1837 panic.

The bank was corrupt, and Jackson was determined to break them. Then, as now, corrupt bankers caused major economic turmoil.

[Jennicut]

12. Wasn't he the only President to pay off most of the national debt?

He hated the Second Bank of United States and had a personal war with them.

[Arkana]

15. Not most of the debt--ALL of it.

Granted, the debt was not as big as it is now.

[proteus_lives]

18. Yep.

He was a true reformer.

[mikekohr]

24. $8,095,614.89 of that debt reduction came from the forced sale of Choctaw lands

Untold millions more came from lands stolen from the Cherokee. http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#ANDREW JACKSON

Maybe Obama could sell Canada to help reduce our National debt.

mike kohr

[proteus_lives]

34. Yeah, that was tragic.

and by the 1830s, unavoidable. Sad but true.

[mikekohr]

38. It was willfull, and deliberate, not inevitable,. Tragic, sad and true.

Facts are inconvenient things.

But not all European People bent to the tyranny of the prejudice of their time and of the larger society. I recognize that there are those that defend the sins and attitudes of our forefathers by saying it is unfair to judge the actions of those of an earlier time against today's more enlightened standards and values. Following is a list of people that rose above the social influence of their day to embrace the ideals of justice, brotherhood, and compassion. The courage of their words and deeds are magnified a hundred-fold by the crucible of their time. These are truly heroes that history has forgotten.

see "Heroes History Forgot" http://www.brotherhooddays.com/forgottenheroes.html


This page is reserved for men like Thomas Morton, who threatened the Separatist way of life by recognizing Native People as human. Morton's principled beliefs caused him to suffer the disgrace of deportation in 1628 from the Pilgrim community for his sins of embracing the humanity of his fellow man.

It is important to recognize and honor the heroic defiance of people like Thomas Morton, just as we must also remember and reflect on mankind's collective sin of inhumanity to our fellow man. By not acknowledging, by not remembering, by not reflecting on past sins, we are sure to repeat them.

In the Spirit of Brotherhood
mike kohr
International Brotherhood Days
http://www.brotherhooddays.com

[TuxedoKat]

48. Thanks for sharing that

Kids should be learning about these heroes when learning about Columbus, Custer and others so they know that some people had the courage to speak and act against their cruelty.

[proteus_lives]

51. Facts are inconvenient, for everyone.

So, if the Indian Removal Act had never occurred, what would have happened? Would white settlement have stopped? Would the tribes been able to hold them off? No, they would have bee wiped out like the tribes on the Eastern seaboard. The Indian removal was wrong, racist and unavoidable.

The tribes would be receiving no more aid from the British or Spanish, they were outnumbered and outgunned. Reflecting on this will prevent it from happening again. But let's remember what actually happened.

[proteus_lives]

19. Jackson was complex.

He did a lot of great things for this nation. He was a war hero, true reformer, bank-buster and he dearly believed in his ideals. He really believed that the will of the people was absolute.

But he pushed through the Indian Removal act, was full of rage and lived in a black and white world.

You can't pigeon-hole him with "good" or "bad" labels.

But you can call him great. We still benefit, suffer and live with his actions and decisions.

[mikekohr]

25. The punk that broke into my house twice and robbed me is complex also

But he has a record now and a history. So does Jackson.

mike kohr

[proteus_lives]

35. You have a very biased view of Jackson.

You need to read more. It's too easy to pigeon-hole him as good or bad.

[mikekohr]

37. How many must perish due to one's actions before one is considered evil?

Is it one? Is it 4,000? Is it 6,500? At the minimum, the blood of the latter number is on Jackson's hands. There is not enough water in Tennessee to wash it away.

mike kohr
International Brotherhood Days
http://www.brotherhooddays.com

[sybylla]

42. I agree with so much of what you say, mikekohr

Jackson is the one to start the whole "removal" business that cost more lives than the Choctaw and Cherokee you mentioned. It began the trouble known as the Blackhawk War in 1832 where another 1500 (at least) men, women and children were slaughtered simply because they were starving and wanted to return to their old lands to farm. Every conflict that happened after the removal process began can be tied to Jackson and his brutal policies toward the native peoples. Surely whatever he has done for our government and political system can in no way compensate for the inhumanity of his relations with people of his own country.

[proteus_lives]

52. The simplest view.

You need to read more then one book about the subject.

[mikekohr]

54. "What seems to matter most is the great silence, the denial of any holocaust."

-Carter Revard, Osage-

Incidently check out my sources page, I've sourced nearly a hundred books and articles. Are they all wrong also?

Sources: http://www.brotherhooddays.com/sources.html

mike kohr

[proteus_lives]

56. I've been to your site before.

It's a good site.

But you still cling to the simplest one-note views of many on the "not my heroes" section. Including Andrew Jackson. For example you make note of his troops cutting the noses of dead Creeks. But will you note how the Red Sticks got their name?

I don't want to whitewash history for anyone but all sides, people and views deserve full consideration.

[mikekohr]

63. Check out "Heroes History Forgot"

If you wish to find a balance to the dark side of Indian/White relations that is documented above, I urge you to view another page on our site, "Heroes History Forgot." This page was started in recognition of the need to convey the message that not all European People bent to the tyranny of the prejudice of their time and of the larger society. Jackson was not one of those brave souls. Jackson, the topic of this thread, met a somewhat lower standard.

-clip-
Following is a list of people that rose above the social influence of their day to embrace the ideals of justice, brotherhood, and compassion. The courage of their words and deeds are magnified a hundred-fold by the crucible of their time. These are truly heroes that history has forgotten.

http://www.brotherhooddays.com/forgottenheroes.html


mike kohr

[proteus_lives]

72. Like I said, a good site.

The net needs sites like this to explore history and topics that public education ignores. Even if it one-sided.

[okie]

67. Why does it matter how the Red Sticks got their name?

I will agree with that Jackson is a complicated figure, and I recognize that Jackson was part of system that could never live peacefully among the Indians. Maybe that says something about how rotten the American system has always been.

I think it's wrong to consider both sides equally. The Indians were were being murdered and robbed. What would you have done? No one is saying we whitewash anything, just that we recognize it might be okay to take sides (even though that might be a meaningless concept when we're talking about the 1830s).

[proteus_lives]

69. Do you even know why they called themselves Red Sticks?

You can take sides all you want. Never said that. What I'm saying it's too complex to simply say "Jackson: bad, Creeks: Good" or in the general sense, "Europeans: bad, Natives: good."

"The Indians were were being murdered and robbed."

And they murdered and robbed right back. Did you know that the British and Spanish often paid the Creeks to attack American settlements? It's not a black and white issue.

[okie]

70. I'm aware of all of this

I don't think being paid by America's enemies is revelent. No one is saying anyone is good or bad. I don't find the concept of one side good the other side bad all that useful. The Reign of Terror in France was a terrible affair. The Mau Mau in Kenya did things that repulse me. The ANC in South Africa used to stick people in burning tires. But it does us no good to make a chart with the two sides and tally up atrocities. One side had been brutalized for centuries. What do you do in that situation?

[proteus_lives]

71. You learn from that situation.

You take lessons from the past and teach your kids to respect all peoples. Hopefully it will make a different in the world.

Part of that is refusing to whitewash history and recognizing the complexity of it.

[okie]

73. Is that really what you would think?

If you were a Creek Indian in the 1810s? I think that's highly unlikely.

[proteus_lives]

74. If you were a Creek Indian in the 1810s.....

You were either marching with American militiamen delighted that the war gave you the chance to destroy your tribal enemies or you were painting your club red with the blood and brains of men, women and children or you were a bystander; miserable and stuck in the middle. It was pretty much the same on the white side.

I was actually talking about you and me. Most people (on either side) in the 1800s would think twice about killing each other during a conflict.

[okie]

78. But it's not about you and me

Why might you be clubbing white people if you were a 19th century Indian? What might you be thinking about white settlers and white influence? I agree that most folks caught up in a conflict wish for peace. But that's beside the point. Colonial aggression, murder and expansion dehumanized Indians. You can do any horrific thing when that happens. It's hardly surprising that white people were dehumanized by some in turn. Maybe this tells us more about the inhumanity of American expansion and settlement than it does about bloodthirsty Indians.

[proteus_lives]

79. Why?

"Why might you be clubbing white people if you were a 19th century Indian?" Depending on what area, what tribe and who your alliances were with, you were often in conflict with whites.

"Maybe this tells us more about the inhumanity of American expansion and settlement than it does about bloodthirsty Indians."

Actually it talks about man's inhumanity to man. Both sides were vicious to each other.

[okie]

81. I don't think that's a very useful way of looking at it

It's too easy to just sit back and say both sides killed people and that's that. I'm really quite curious what you think of the colonization and settlement and how you might react if you were a victim of it. Can you understand how it might make an Indian want to kill a white? Can you understand how a white might be seen as less than human?

As I said before, the ANC in South Africa committed atrocities against innocent people. Not every head that rolled in Revolutionary France came from a monarchist. But we still defend the anti-apartheid movement. We can still say overthrowing the French monarchy was important. Obviously these struggles are different, but they all involve disparate power relationships, and they all involve one group fighting back against brutalization and exploitation. That kind of thing has unfortunate consequences. We should recognize that war is a horrible thing, but it's more important for us to realize - especially as Americans benefiting from this legacy - that the Native people were killed and swindled from the moment the pale faces showed up on shore. Pointing out that they did bad things too does not put us on an equal ground.

[proteus_lives]

84. Yeah, I understand.

I can understand why Indians hated Whites and I can understand why Whites hated Indians.

"that the Native people were killed and swindled from the moment the pale faces showed up on shore."

And they killed, traded, allied with and intermarried from the moment "pale faces" (Yet you would shit a brick if I used "redskins") hit the shore.

Your position is quite common. It's the "Noble Savage" myth. The Native American were pure and innocent and lived in paradise until the evil Europeans showed up. This view was created out of White guilt in the 19th century over their treatment of the Native peoples.

I've never denied the sins of one over the other. My whole point of on this thread is about the real complexity of history. No matter how you frame it, it's not black and white.

[okie]

86. My position has nothing to do with the ' noble savage'

I agree, it's a myth. No one denies Indians engaged in brutal conflicts with settlers and other tribes. I acknowledged this in my original post. I just think we should place those conflicts in context with the larger issues of colonization, theft and ethnic cleansing. The trading, alliances and intermarriage that went on should also be looked at within this context.

Trying to say that both sides of this conflict were equally guilty is black and white thinking (if by black/white you just mean overly simplistic). I don't like to throw 'genocide' around because too often the word is just used as a political weapon, but it's appropriate when we're talking about the Native Americans. They were victims of a genocide. I don't think it's a good idea to respond to this fact with a litany of Indian atrocities. This misses the point entirely.

[Dr Morbius]

36. Andrew Jackson was not a good man.

He once executed a 16 year old soldier for mouthing off at a superior officer after a 12 hour shift on guard duty. His staff were appalled; to a man, they all felt it was excessive and unnecessary for purposes of discipline.

Completely without authority, he pursued native Americans into Florida and caused an international incident.

He was probably the only President who served with a bullet in his chest, and he did it for two terms. His beloved wife, for whom he killed when her husband came after her (she was a frontier divorcee; she just up and left her abusive first husband), died right after he got elected for the first time, so Jackson was the nation's second widower President (after Jefferson). But Jackson was a very strong President. He looked upon the Bank of the United States and saw that the powerful head of the bank was appointed, and not by elected officials. This bothered Jackson, who believed in accountability. So he drove the bank out of existence, and probably exceeded his authority in doing so. Exceeding his authority never once slowed Jackson down. He was a populist, though. After Andy Jackson, every President has been elected by popular vote within the state; Jackson did this for the nation.

First westerner in the White House. This may not seem like a big deal but in 1828, after forty years of constitutional rule, the nation had only been led by men from Virginia and Massachusetts. The apple cart which is Washington reeled at the impact of this very forceful man; opposition to him was so strong that a political party formed around it: the American Whig Party, led by Henry Clay. The party itself would only last about thirty years, and in the dust of the Whig party would form our modern Republican party.

A very good picture of America from Jackson's era can be and should be read today. A Frenchman named Alexis de Tocqueville visited America and made some observations which are still fascinating. I strongly recommend Democracy in America; I call it a must-read for all Americans.

[PVnRT]

47. A genocidal racist who with an anger management problem (to be kind about it)

[asdjrocky]

49. I know many Native Americans who still refuse to use 20 dollar bills.

That should tell you something.

[nemo137]

61. There's a good argument to be made that he's the father of right-wing populism in the US

Chip Berlet and Matthew N. Lyons cover the case for that in great detail.

[Drunken Irishman]

62. Insane badass who shaped the Democratic Party & the American presidency.

[Captain Hilts]

77. FDR idolized him and the reviewing stand for the first inaugural parade was a replica

of Jackson's house.

[Zomby Woof]

87. Truman admired him too

His favorite expression was "Jesus Christ and General Jackson!" Which is kind of catchy.

[Zomby Woof]

64. Someone with a Jackson avatar

Got snotty with me because I questioned the divinity of Lincoln.

That's all I am going to say.

[craigmatic]

65. He killed alot of the natives in the southeast. It's a shame too because they had such a rich

culture.

[Captain Hilts]

66. Wasn't he technically a bigamist? His marriage to Rachel had some legal glitch, I believe. nt

[proteus_lives]

68. He had to fight a number of duals over it.

Rachel would be the bigamist. She shacked-up with Andrew when she was still married.

[Captain Hilts]

76. Right! That's it. nt

[Capt. America]

75. A lot of interesting things about Jackson:

1) His wife died after he was elected but before he took office.
2) He had two bullets in his body (which the physicians did not remove) following two separate duels.
3) He was the first president to have an assassination attempt.
4) Following his victory in New Orleans, he went "rogue" (there is some debate as to whether there was a wink and a nod from Monroe) with his army and marched east and captured Florida.

[Ohio Metal]

80. He was a braying jackass.

That's why the Democratic party has the jackass as a mascot. Or at least that's what my history teacher told me.

[DailyGrind51]

82. Jackson was the Adolf Eichmann of the Cherokee & Seminole peoples.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

83. The first populist prez. A bad guy. Had about five bullets in him and was in constant pain.

Fought more duels than I've had hot breakfasts.

He is one the 20 dollar bill primarily because he was the first real Democrat.

Hopefully the last President to have run on his exploits in winning a battle a week after the war ended. (Not his fault, but still comical.)

[proteus_lives]

85. You know what's even more badass about the Battle of New Orleans?

Jackson defeated the British with a pirate army.

That screams "awesome".